Legend of Zelda The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - NO SPOILERS, USE THE SPOILER THREAD PLEASE

[finalark]

Kupo, we get it, you don't like post N64 Zelda games. Give it a rest, would you kindly?

 

[kupo15]

I told you I would get back to you after the weekend and I did. God damn

 

[Luigitoilet]

Ok so I just did 2 speed run contests against my friend this weekend, first was OOT and the second was TP and I stick to my initial response that TP is restrictive, stiff controls and it plays itself and I have examples

Ok...

...so, uh, why don't you post them?

 

[Jam Stunna]

If there's one thing I give TP credit for, it's for proving just how absurd 3D platforming is in general with those abysmal wolf-jump sections.

 

[finalark]

If there's one thing I give TP credit for, it's for proving just how absurd 3D platforming is in general with those abysmal wolf-jump sections.

Hell, if I've learned anything from 3D platformers as a whole its that it's a lot harder to judge distance in 3D than it is in 2D.

 

[GwJ]

Hopefully the 3DS will change that.

 

[kupo15]

Ok...

...so, uh, why don't you post them?

I wanted to make sure people were at least somewhat interested:

This game would be a good if it wasn't for these poorly designed features:

Too many chests:
There seriously is an overabundance of chests which slow the game down, lowers the value of them as well as discourages exploration. The perfect example would be temples. Temples especially have so many chests that most of them are filled with 5, 10 and 20 rupees.

Firstly this is a huge waste of time, annoying and utterly pointless when you could just as easily collect 5 rupees on the ground. You do not need chests to filled with such low amounts of money especially since most of the time you are having to put them back because your wallet is full. Furthermore, the fact that this game doesn't really rely on money that much makes it even more of a waste.

Secondly, because you want to get the heart pieces which are found in chests, its very discouraging to explore when you know that most of chests are a waste of time to begin with

Lastly, there is no consistency with the chests. You have 3 different types of chests all of which could have money or a key. So you can't even see the chest and choose to ignore it if you didn't want to waste time on money chests that you will put back.


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The gameplay is too reliant on story events
Yes, OOT had a story but progress in the game wasn't restricted because of it. In OOT and MM everything was active and ready for you to do even if you technically weren't at the right moment in the story if you could get there. For example, you could learn all the temple's songs at once if you really wanted to. You could get the necessary items to progress the story that will be happening later down the road without knowing in any order such as the lens of truth and iron boots ect

However with TP, you MUST follow their strict order of events no matter what. My friend and I were competing over the weekend and came to a point where we had to learn the Sumo skill back in Ordon Forest. He went back to the Mayor's house but was unable to learn it but I was. The reason he couldn't was because he didn't attempt to scale death mountain and get rejected by the goron first.

Seriously, he knows what needs to be done next he doesn't need to be treated like a new player every time. He doesn't need to be told what to do in order to progress through the game if he already knows how.

This also ties into a gripe with one of the items you get. The horse call is given to you at the end of the game when you get Epona at the very beginning. I realize that you stole epona but why does it take the entire game before you get it? Oh that's right, because that would ruin strict progression the game wants you to follow to the T. You could escape Kakriko Village before the game wants you too and by the time you get the horse call, calling epona at anytime won't interfere with the story anymore.
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Game feels like it plays itself
This doesn't feel like a free roaming game Zelda is known for. Most of the time I feel like the gameplay is too preprogrammed with the story. Its one thing to have a set temple layout and puzzles to go with it but its a whole other thing to revolve puzzles and game advances around cutscenes. A prime example would be the Sumo wrestling. The only way to progress through the game is to learn how to wrestle only to later find out that you have to prove yourself wrestling skills to access the fire temple. Geez...how convenient!

Another example is when after you beat the fire temple Epona comes back outraged and you need to calm her down before you can ride her. The game is basically telling you "ok now you need to use her to get out of the town." You also have things like the Eldin bridge showdown, Hylea lake showdown, snowboarding, rescuing the kid from the boar, sacred grove minigame...

To me, instead of the game having a story that makes the quest worth playing without really influencing what you can and cannot do, I feel like TP is filled with a bunch of minigames that you have to do to progress the story. Instead of OOT where the goal is to get to ganon's castle and you do that by beating these temples, TP has the same goal but it throws these side story goals completely out of the blue. It just feels really arbitrary and restrictive.

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The combat and movement is clunky
The way Link takes his sword out has changed. He can take it out while running which is a fine mechanic actually but it really cripples normal combat. You are running around without your sword in your hand which happens a lot to use items and such and you confront an enemy and need to quickly pull out your sword. The problem is, you can't use your sword quickly.

In OOT and MM pressing B draws your sword and slashes at the same time really quickly. In TP pressing B only pulls out your sword and you have to wait a full second or two before you can even use it. The same holds true for putting it away. If you want to pick up a pot or block or something for a puzzle and your sword is out, you must first wait 1 second to put the sword away then press B again and wait another second to pick it up.

In OOT and MM these were very smooth transitions.

A minor complaint is Link's movement as a whole is pretty stiff. His turns are rather wide and control is pretty wack. This is very apparant after just doing a speed run of OOT. Here is a fun fact about TPs run. You can make Link run forward by wiggling the control stick as if you were to dash dance in Melee. Its feels like Link moves like those two wheeled skateboards with shopping cart wheels on the bottom. I'm sorry but when you can run by clicking the joystick left and right you know the movement isn't programmed well


Those are just some of the things I've noticed thus far. We are only half way through the game so I'm sure I might encounter some more things

 

[GwJ]

Minigames are easy, it plays itself.

You have some valid points, but I really sense a lot of hate.

 

[Spire]

I think you are overanalytical and critical, kupo15.

 

[finalark]

Stop acting like OoT was an open playground of holiness that didn't at all force you to follow the story. Stop trying to find reasons to hate games that aren't on the N64 and just sit down and enjoy it.

And lol at the "too many chests" statement. Nitpicking at its finest.

 

[IYM!]

well, i am agree with kupo15.

TP is lineal, and you dont have the freedom to pass, for example, the laked bed temple before the Goron mines.

OoT also is a lineal game, but give you more freedom.


abot some details, like, Link swing the sword slower, or you cant hit with it faster, well, i dont have problems to deal with it.

 

[kupo15]

Minigames are easy, it plays itself.

You have some valid points, but I really sense a lot of hate.

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not but I don't "hate" TP. I'm definitely enjoying the GC version over Wii and I'm excited to finish playing TP with my friend this weekend. Its a pretty good game I'm just frustrated at some things in it.

I think you are overanalytical and critical, kupo15.

I try not to be. Honest to god I don't play the newer Zelda's and try to find every single flaw in the game. Remember, I just straight from an OOT speedrun competition straight into a TP speed run competition. You can't ask for a better method of comparing the similarities and differences between all aspects of the game. These are the things that literally and I mean literally Jumped out at me and my friend. They are obvious differences and annoyances that simply can't be ignore especially given the circumstance.

Stop acting like OoT was an open playground of holiness that didn't at all force you to follow the story. Stop trying to find reasons to hate games that aren't on the N64 and just sit down and enjoy it.

You really don't understand. Like really. Firstly as I said above, I intend on playing to enjoy it but the flaws jump out sooo much that they simply can't be ignored.

Secondly, I've played OOT well over 10x you should know that I know the game by heart and I'm not stupid or ignorant. I know that you have to follow a story for crying out loud except its very different than following the story in TP. In OOT you have a story but you don't have to follow it! OOT only has key moments that must happen at a certain time:

-You must meet get the Ocarina of time and master sword only after you complete the 3 temples
-You must go to ganon's castle after you've collected all the medallions.

All the other cutscenes do NOT restrict or unrestrict where you can go and what you can do. The same cannot be said for TP. After you beat the Goron Mines, you know that you have to take Epona to get out of Kakariko Village but she won't come when you play the grass. This is because you need to talk to that Tribal women to activate a cutscene which will then allow you to progress.

To address your open playground statement, its not a "completely" open playground true, but its far more open than TP. In OOT you can go to just about anywhere in the game whenever you want. It doesn't mean you can complete it but you can go there. You can go out of order, you can collect items that you will be needing later in the game early instead of getting it when you are "supposed" to get it. Hell, if you really wanted to, you can beat the game without the Lens of Truth if your that good. See? You have options!

Does TP give the player options? No it doesn't. You MUST beat the Ordon Provence, then you MUST beat the Kakariko Village Province, Then you MUST beat the Hyrule Lake Province in that order. Do you know where to find the Underwater Tunic? Good for you but too bad that you can't get it until you go through that one cut scene and quest. That would be like in OOT you can't get the Fire Tunic unless you beat the Forest Temple because your not supposed to do that yet. And speaking of the temples, in OOT you can even skip Dodongos cavern and complete Zora's domain and Jabu Jabu first if you really wanted to.

Do you see the options? Do you see how much more OOT sticks with the foundations of Zelda's sandbox quality and how TP can be view as more restrictive and linear?

TL;DR
OOT and TP both have linear stories but gameplay wise, you can play OOT nonlinearly against the story whereas TP you must play the game linearly to match the story and cutscenes

And lol at the "too many chests" statement. Nitpicking at its finest.

If you say so but it sticks out as being nonsensical. 5 rupee chests inside temples? Seriously? 5 little rupees? If I didn't know any better I would say all the chests are lazy programming designed to try and force players to navigate the entire temple for the sake of doing it OR it could be yet another way to spoon feed players information about where to go inside their temples.

You tell me if this is perfectly fine or if its a low shot to the balls. I'm going to predict that you will accept that it makes sense and is perfectly fine. TP Water temple. The first room where you start the water flow has a BIG chest at the top which you can't get because you don't have the claw shot. Do you think its an important item? Something like IDK maybe a piece of heart that is worth having to backtrack while wearing the iron boots to fight against the flowing water current? Well I'm sorry to disappoint you but you just wasted 5 minutes of your time backtracking to get 50 rupees. "I'm sorry but your wallet is full and you must put it back!"

And if you realllly want me to be nitpicky, answer me this. Why is the hardest platform on the Island of Treasures (the smallest, spinning top one) have a chest that is filled with 100 rupees (that you most likely have to put back) yet the second hardest one (the platform below it) that chest contains a piece of heart?


I know you hate that I'm doing what I'm doing and it seems like I just pick apart the newer games, but at least I'm being realistic about what I'm playing. I feel like you don't even notice half the things that are obvious to me which makes me wonder how engaged you really are when you play if you don't notice it. I don't understand how anyone can NOT see what I'm seeing and how anyone can just be completely ok with some of the crap found in games.

I like to think this can be a testament to my passion for high quality gaming.

abot some details, like, Link swing the sword slower, or you cant hit with it faster, well, i dont have problems to deal with it.

Well, it kinda sucks when you are standing next to an enemy that is attacking you and Link just stands there because pressing B only takes the sword out of the sheath. You can mash B 5 times if you want but it still takes 2 seconds before you can even take a swing at him.

 

[finalark]

You know, I'm sick of every nostalgic die-hard within a hundred mile radius beating me over the head with how wrong I am if I dare say that I say that I thought WW and TP were better than Jesus' golden testicles in cartridge form (AKA OoT).

I'm sorry that you have rose-tinted retinas and you're so busy sucking up to the N64 that you aren't able to appreciate advances in game play and game design. Have fun playing Mario 64 again for the millionth time.

I enjoyed WW and TP far more than I enjoyed OoT even though I played OoT when it first came out. I'm done here.

 

[Clownbot]

Both of you guys should let up a little and let each other freely enjoy - or not enjoy - games as you please.

 

[Spire]

Alright, I understand you better now kupo15. I'd actually like to call finalark out on his sheer fanboyism for not taking a moment to try and understand your analyses, opting to defend the lesser celebrated titles as a means of displaying his apparent "better fanboyism".

Though kupo15, while it is possible to navigate OoT in a very non-linear fashion, I hope you understand that 99% of players in the world (if not more) played the game like this: Deku Tree, Dodongo's Cavern, Inside Jabu Jabu's Belly, Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Water Temple, Shadow Temple, Spirit Temple, Ganon's Castle. Why? Because Navi told us to. I think all Zelda needs is the elimination of highlighted and/or colored keywords in text, varied multi-use items (for navigational purposes, i.e. bombs destroying barriers), and subsequent actual ways to traverse Hyrule in unprecedented and unorthodox fashions. They can keep the "helper" character in, so long as they don't call out to you; keep them as a simple go-to at the click of a button without flashing and sound effects.

 

[The Real Gamer]

What Kupo15 AND Finalark are seeming to not understand is the fact that this argument is nearly all opinionated (minus the linear debate) and there is no right answer. It's all relative, and NOT absolute. There is no such thing as "the best game ever."

All of the Zelda games have specific qualities that make them better than the rest in one way or another. It depends on the gamer's taste.

Kupo15 we all get it; TP is more linear than OoT (although it isn't nearly as much as a flaw as you make it out to be). You guys are not going to change each other's minds so what's the point of continuing the argument? Tired of checking back on this thread for more Skyward Sword updates just to find you two arguing over how linear TP is.

Give it a break guys.

 

[Luigitoilet]

You know, I'm sick of every nostalgic die-hard within a hundred mile radius beating me over the head with how wrong I am if I dare say that I say that I thought WW and TP were better than Jesus' golden testicles in cartridge form (AKA OoT).

I'm sorry that you have rose-tinted retinas and you're so busy sucking up to the N64 that you aren't able to appreciate advances in game play and game design. Have fun playing Mario 64 again for the millionth time.

I enjoyed WW and TP far more than I enjoyed OoT even though I played OoT when it first came out. I'm done here.

Knock it off. Kupo has done a fabulous job of explaining his opinions in depth and you continue to blindly insult him for fanboyism. You do this crap a lot. Stop it.

 

[GwJ]

Just wondering:

If Link never got hit by the Goron, how would he know he needs a way to outsmart the Gorons?

The chieftain wouldn't have brought it up if he didn't try and fight the Goron.

 

[kupo15]

Though kupo15, while it is possible to navigate OoT in a very non-linear fashion, I hope you understand that 99% of players in the world (if not more) played the game like this: Deku Tree, Dodongo's Cavern, Inside Jabu Jabu's Belly, Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Water Temple, Shadow Temple, Spirit Temple, Ganon's Castle. Why? Because Navi told us to. I think all Zelda needs is the elimination of highlighted and/or colored keywords in text, varied multi-use items (for navigational purposes, i.e. bombs destroying barriers), and subsequent actual ways to traverse Hyrule in unprecedented and unorthodox fashions. They can keep the "helper" character in, so long as they don't call out to you; keep them as a simple go-to at the click of a button without flashing and sound effects.

Yes I completely agree. I went in the same order. However, I do remember when the game came out that when I was stuck at a temple, I would often leave it and start on another temple or explored the game and was able to collect things that was needed for later. Say for example if I was stuck at the Forest Temple, I could still dabble in Death mountain, try my luck on the Fire temple while I was formulating ideas on how to get past the Forest Temple part. The options and freedom was nice.

Consider this, can you imagine how problematic it would be if you couldn't get the Fire tunic until you beat the Forest Temple? Firstly, how is the gamer supposed to know that rolling goron has it much less how to stop him. Secondly, if you managed to figure that out but didn't get the tunic because the game forces you to get it when you are "supposed" to, when would you realize that he actually gives you the Fire tunic if it didn't work the first time?

Nowadays, the linear point I'm trying to make deals more with replay value. My first TP experience was a pretty good one don't get me wrong. However, the replay value isn't anywhere close to as high as OOT because of the strict linear style of the game. It really is apparent when you go for speed runs and/or replays (like that example when you travel across the Hyrule field to a place where you know you need to be next but you can't get that item because you have to backtrack, due to you not talking to someone who tells you where to go next, thus allowing you to progress.) Its also much better when you can collect all the items in that area on the way just so you don't have to backtrack later because the game arbitrarily says you can do it now.

I'm sorry that you have rose-tinted retinas and you're so busy sucking up to the N64 that you aren't able to appreciate advances in game play and game design.

I doubt you want to continue the debate but you still haven't mentioned what these advances in gameplay that you speak of especially after I dissected gameplay and my views on gameplay "advancements" in detail. Just saying

Maybe you should speedrun through OOT then go directly into a TP speedrun.

If Link never got hit by the Goron, how would he know he needs a way to outsmart the Gorons?

The chieftain wouldn't have brought it up if he didn't try and fight the Goron.

Realistically speaking, sure. But the problem with that is that this is a video game and video games are at their most fun and work best when they try not to incorporate this type of realism. Besides, you forget that Link is not just Link. Link not only is a character in the world but Link is also a representation of us...the gamer. The first time we play the game, you are absolutely correct that we don't know about defeating the gorons until we try and fail but when we replay the game, we don't need to fail on purpose to advance because we already know what to do

But even if you don't know what to do, its a great feeling of accomplishment when you do the prerequisites without any help or instruction. It makes you feel smarter than the game to be able to figure out the puzzles in advanced

 

[finalark]

No, I think I'm just sick of being beat over the head with how wrong I am for liking any 3D Zelda more than OoT.

This is stupid, you have good points but I still disagree. Lets stop arguing opinions now, alright?

 

[kupo15]

Ok

10chars

 

[MuraRengan]

Well, final, to kupo's credit, he DID provide an argument to back up his claims. All you've done so far is try to shoot down his arguments, but you haven't provided any of your own. So honestly, I wouldn't care if you're annoyed by people berating you for your viewpoint because you seem unwilling or unable to beck them up, like kupo has done. You like to rely on your trite little remarks about people being nostalgia fans and whatnot, but that's not making your point any more valid. It's hiding behind the illusion of an argument created by other disillusioned minds. The only person you're proving it to is yourself, which is fine, as long as you don't try to assert into a public forum and pretend as if you know what you're talking about.

What Kupo15 AND Finalark are seeming to not understand is the fact that this argument is nearly all opinionated (minus the linear debate) and there is no right answer. It's all relative, and NOT absolute. There is no such thing as "the best game ever."

I, personally, have never agreed with this statement. Gamers compare games all the time. It occurs all of the time, even here. It's generally accepted that the DS Zeldas are some of the "worst" Zeldas? Why? You could say that it's all opinion, but I, personally, believe that there is a standard to gaming which people use to judge games. That standard may not be exactly the same for every person, but by judging the trends of how games are judged, the standard remains true at it's core. So far, every time I've brought this up, people call me crazy, but that still doesn't change the fact that people judge games all the time and quite often those judgements are consistent or similar ot other people's judgements. If you can call one game better than another, then you can do the same for them all, otherwise no one has any right to ever say that a game is bad or that TP is better than Tingle's Rosy Rupee Land ever.

 

[IYM!]

Yes I completely agree. I went in the same order. However, I do remember when the game came out that when I was stuck at a temple, I would often leave it and start on another temple or explored the game and was able to collect things that was needed for later. Say for example if I was stuck at the Forest Temple, I could still dabble in Death mountain, try my luck on the Fire temple while I was formulating ideas on how to get past the Forest Temple part. The options and freedom was nice.

this is true

When I went out of the temple of time as an adult the first time, i hasnt any idea,i dindt know what to do, my only clue was "Kakariko Village"(my English wasnt very good when i was smaller) and the truth, however much it was treating in kakariko village, was not finding anything (good, the truth was giving myself something of fear to go to the cemetery ).

Since not wise that to do in kakariko, I went to the Ranch, and I could get Epona, since it had to epona could go to the desert and since I could go to the desert could complete the Gerudo Fortress, saving all the carpenters.

Kupo15 is right, OoT is a lineal game, but give you the posibilities to change your game experience. This thing is good as a replay value

 

[Luigitoilet]

Well, final, to kupo's credit, he DID provide an argument to back up his claims. All you've done so far is try to shoot down his arguments, but you haven't provided any of your own. So honestly, I wouldn't care if you're annoyed by people berating you for your viewpoint because you seem unwilling or unable to beck them up, like kupo has done. You like to rely on your trite little remarks about people being nostalgia fans and whatnot, but that's not making your point any more valid. It's hiding behind the illusion of an argument created by other disillusioned minds. The only person you're proving it to is yourself, which is fine, as long as you don't try to assert into a public forum and pretend as if you know what you're talking about.



I, personally, have never agreed with this statement. Gamers compare games all the time. It occurs all of the time, even here. It's generally accepted that the DS Zeldas are some of the "worst" Zeldas? Why? You could say that it's all opinion, but I, personally, believe that there is a standard to gaming which people use to judge games. That standard may not be exactly the same for every person, but by judging the trends of how games are judged, the standard remains true at it's core. So far, every time I've brought this up, people call me crazy, but that still doesn't change the fact that people judge games all the time and quite often those judgements are consistent or similar ot other people's judgements. If you can call one game better than another, then you can do the same for them all, otherwise no one has any right to ever say that a game is bad or that TP is better than Tingle's Rosy Rupee Land ever.

Exactly. And what are we supposed to discuss if not our opinions? Especially on a message board.

 

[MuraRengan]

What part of my post are you referring to?

 

[Luigitoilet]

Woops. Second paragraph. and also referring to finalark saying "stop arguing about opinions"

 

[The Real Gamer]

I, personally, have never agreed with this statement. Gamers compare games all the time. It occurs all of the time, even here. It's generally accepted that the DS Zeldas are some of the "worst" Zeldas? Why? You could say that it's all opinion, but I, personally, believe that there is a standard to gaming which people use to judge games. That standard may not be exactly the same for every person, but by judging the trends of how games are judged, the standard remains true at it's core. So far, every time I've brought this up, people call me crazy, but that still doesn't change the fact that people judge games all the time and quite often those judgements are consistent or similar ot other people's judgements. If you can call one game better than another, then you can do the same for them all, otherwise no one has any right to ever say that a game is bad or that TP is better than Tingle's Rosy Rupee Land ever.

Also @LT

It's part of human nature to judge and there's nothing wrong with it but at the same time that doesn't mean that there is a RIGHT or WRONG answer in a lot of cases (example: which is better, Twilight Princess or Ocarina or Time?). It's fine and completely acceptable to have opinions on a topic but to act like your opinion is right and anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong/an idiot is uncalled for.

On the other hand I do agree that there are CERTAIN aspects you can debate over when you compare games such as mechanics, graphics, length, variety, ect., but since there are soooo many variables that go into liking a game you really can't have a definitive "game x is better than game y and if you don't agree you're just a fanboy/troll."

Example- Lets say I'm a sailor and I'm obsessed with sailing. If I've played every console Zelda game to date then there's a strong possibility that I'm going to think Wind Waker was truly the greatest Zelda ever. If I love sailing that much then there's no way anyone would be able to prove me otherwise because Wind Waker caters to what I like in a game and that's all that matters.

tl;dr- It's fine to debate over which video game is better than the other, but don't act like you're opinion is the only right one and flame/insult other people just because their opinions are different.

We're debating video games here people, not the law of physics.

 

[kupo15]

Last 4 posts

Quoted for truth

Edit: Whoops, new posts I didn't see that I need to read. I was referring to the 4 posts after my last one

 

[The Real Gamer]

^Ninja'd son XD

EDIT: I'll edit this in a bit.

 

[MuraRengan]

Woops. Second paragraph. and also referring to finalark saying "stop arguing about opinions"

In the past, I've suggested that people judge games based on the depth/complexity of its elements [I.E. MM has a much deeper exploration element than TP, therefore, this is evidence toward an argument that MM is better than TP(this is a theoretical argument and doesn't reflect a view I'm trying to impose)], but I made a topic about it and it didn't go so well. Now, since so many people disagreed fundementally, I'm unsure of what I think the standard for judging games should be, though I still insist that there is one. I really only made that post in hopes of inspiring thought about it again.

Also @LT

It's part of human nature to judge and there's nothing wrong with it but at the same time that doesn't mean that there is a RIGHT or WRONG answer in a lot of cases (example: which is better, Twilight Princess or Ocarina or Time?). It's fine and completely acceptable to have opinions on a topic but to act like your opinion is right and anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong/an idiot is uncalled for.

On the other hand I do agree that there are CERTAIN aspects you can debate over when you compare games such as mechanics, graphics, length, variety, ect., but since there are soooo many variables that go into liking a game you really can't have a definitive "game x is better than game y and if you don't agree you're just a fanboy/troll."

Example- Lets say I'm a sailor and I'm obsessed with sailing. If I've played every console Zelda game to date then there's a strong possibility that I'm going to think Wind Waker was truly the greatest Zelda ever. If I love sailing that much then there's no way anyone would be able to prove me otherwise because Wind Waker caters to what I like in a game and that's all that matters.

tl;dr- It's fine to debate over which video game is better than the other, but don't act like you're opinion is the only right one and flame/insult other people just because their opinions are different.

We're debating video games here people, not the law of physics.

With your example of WW, a person who thinks that way without considering other people's opinions is just plain stubborn and has no place asserting that WW is the best game ever on such a weak premise in the first place. People can hold their beliefs personally all they want, but I'm talking about then people make public assertions of fact, based in opinion. The methods I've suggested in the past were systematic and as objective as possible, meant for serious and intellectual discussion, not for johnny-come-lately who loves sailboats. But of course, I don't expect you to agree with me, because it's a very tough idea to believe with certainty. I often think I might be wrong about it, but I can never find substantial reasons why.

I take video games very seriously (coincidentally much more seriously than I take physics) And I actually think there is a right answer to OoT vs. TP.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Heck I just decided to made that long wall of text after I saw Finalark call Kupo a "fanboy" just because he likes OoT more. PLUS Kupo supported all of his arguments very well.

Stuff like that ticks me off.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Also @LT

It's part of human nature to judge and there's nothing wrong with it but at the same time that doesn't mean that there is a RIGHT or WRONG answer in a lot of cases (example: which is better, Twilight Princess or Ocarina or Time?). It's fine and completely acceptable to have opinions on a topic but to act like your opinion is right and anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong/an idiot is uncalled for.

On the other hand I do agree that there are CERTAIN aspects you can debate over when you compare games such as mechanics, graphics, length, variety, ect., but since there are soooo many variables that go into liking a game you really can't have a definitive "game x is better than game y and if you don't agree you're just a fanboy/troll."

Example- Lets say I'm a sailor and I'm obsessed with sailing. If I've played every console Zelda game to date then there's a strong possibility that I'm going to think Wind Waker was truly the greatest Zelda ever. If I love sailing that much then there's no way anyone would be able to prove me otherwise because Wind Waker caters to what I like in a game and that's all that matters.

tl;dr- It's fine to debate over which video game is better than the other, but don't act like you're opinion is the only right one and flame/insult other people just because their opinions are different.

We're debating video games here people, not the law of physics.

Oh yeah, I agree completely. But at the end of the day, I think everyone realizes that we are discussing things that are quite subjective. Even when someone says "this game is better than that game", I'm confident that they aren't trying to literally quantify such a statement in an objective sense. I don't think anyone is trying to find the one true answer.

Which is what I'm trying to get at. It seems some people tend to take disagreements personally, leading to blanket attacks about "fanboyism" and whatnot rather than simply considering the other person's perspective.

 

[The Real Gamer]

It seems some people tend to take disagreements personally, leading to blanket attacks about "fanboyism" and whatnot rather than simply considering the other person's perspective.

EXACTLY that's where I'm getting at. It just amazes me how furious people get over video games when you disagree over something so trivial... Especially PS3 vs 360 debates *shudders*

I just wish more gamers could be more open minded.

 

[MuraRengan]

EXACTLY that's where I'm getting at. It just amazes me how furious people get over video games when you disagree over something so trivial... Especially PS3 vs 360 debates *shudders*

I just wish more gamers could be more open minded.

And I just wish people would stop being hypocritical. So many people say "'x' was a bad game" or "'x' game was better than 'z' game" but when asked what makes a game better than another, they go back to saying that it's all opinion. I'm not claiming to know the answers, but just saying that there's a problem with the way people compare games.

 

[The Real Gamer]

And I just wish people would stop being hypocritical. So many people say "'x' was a bad game" or "'x' game was better than 'z' game" but when asked what makes a game better than another, they go back to saying that it's all opinion. I'm not claiming to know the answers, but just saying that there's a problem with the way people compare games.

But there's no such thing as a full-proof guideline to compare/contrast games. If that were true all gamers would only need a single source for reviews.

But of course there are many, many sources for reviews because opinions differentiate all of them.

 

[MuraRengan]

Reviews are incredibly superficial, I don't read them. And I don't think there's a fool-proof guideline to judging games, but I do think there is a fairly reliable one. I think so because gamers have a tendency to judge games similarly. For example, the larger community of gamers would agree that OoT is better than most games in existence. But why? I don't know, but I'm quite sure it's because gamers, whether consciously or unconsciously, judge games with similar criteria, and I think that if we knew what that criteria was judging games would be a lot less chaotic.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'm really, really simple on how I compare games... What game did I have a better time playing? Or which game made me feel more attached to it? Or even how long did the game last for me? Then I start to go into specifics and think about what specifically made the experience more enjoyable for ME? In my own case I'd say The Wind Waker (in terms of Zelda games).

But when it comes to which game I think is better overall, outside of my own experience, I often ask myself which game had a greater impact on gamers during its time in an overly positive way? In that case I'd say OoT... and another reason why it's one of the greatest games of ALL time.

EDIT: This thread is getting off topic so I think we should stop. Was a fun discussion while it lasted.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Skyward Sword is going to be the greatest game of all time.

 

[kupo15]

In the past, I've suggested that people judge games based on the depth/complexity of its elements [I.E. MM has a much deeper exploration element than TP, therefore, this is evidence toward an argument that MM is better than TP(this is a theoretical argument and doesn't reflect a view I'm trying to impose)], but I made a topic about it and it didn't go so well. Now, since so many people disagreed fundementally, I'm unsure of what I think the standard for judging games should be, though I still insist that there is one. I really only made that post in hopes of inspiring thought about it again.

I wish I saw that thread

I take video games very seriously (coincidentally much more seriously than I take physics) And I actually think there is a right answer to OoT vs. TP.

Cool. Same here.

Heck I just decided to made that long wall of text after I saw Finalark call Kupo a "fanboy" just because he likes OoT more. PLUS Kupo supported all of his arguments very well.

Stuff like that ticks me off.

Thanks. Me too

EDIT: This thread is getting off topic so I think we should stop. Was a fun discussion while it lasted.

Nooo jk. Had to throw in my 2 cents really quick lol

 

[Vigilante]

Skyward Sword is going to be the greatest game of all time.

I personally doubt it. It's less of a game and more of a Wii Motion Plus (which is not a "new product", but a bug fix for an unfinished product) gimmick. Some left handed players who are really bad with their right hands and can't adapt because handedness is a BIOLOGICAL TRAIT like me are annoyed.

I'm skipping on this one because I feel insulted that a company like Nintendo would ostracize a little over 15% of the population instead of taking the effort of taking VERY little extra time. to switch a few hitboxes around for lefties in a new option... Or at the very least, allow traditional contols, which I find superior in every way.

Motions were cute and all for a while, but now I just want to sit on my rear end and play video games in a quiet envionment, relaxing my tense muscles from work stress without having to move anything other than my fingers.

Zelda should be treated with more respect in my eyes.