The Last Time I Will Do This

[Rabbi Nevins]

Everyone please take note of how many mk mains are in this argument.

 

[sneakytako]

Frankly, I don't think it's mainly about MK either. I just don't think our players play enough in general, and when they do...it's not efficient or dedicated enough practice. I'm not expecting people to put the kind of time that Vinnie does into this game, because we all have lives to live and differing amounts of free time, but I'm willing to bet that over half of our people only play the day of a tournament. Again, if Salem and other people can improve the way they do under isolated circumstances, I think travel amount and tournament attending frequency are null and void. After all - any form of non-tournament play are all like preparation for a test; the tournaments are the test for that practice. Lack of test-taking shouldn't be a reason for a lack of improvement when the study resources (wifi, smashfests, etc.) are still there to use. There are very few players who don't have at least one of those to utilize.

Eh, I disagree with the notion that Ocean's tech skill > his smarts. For the other stuff though, it's your main whom you've played for years so I'll take your word for it bro.

Read above. More tournaments/traveling is necessary for a healthy community in terms of existence. Individual player improvement can still be accomplished through other means and resources.

The main problem is the quality of our smashfests. It's really hard to play a larger pool of good players, because we are so spread apart. This is why I think that going to more tournaments both in state and OoS is important. Taking SAT prep classes is good, but taking the test 8 times can also net you a 1500+ score.

Edit: I just remembered that 1500 is *** now that they have a new section. But w/e reading is for ***s.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I should have worded things just a tad different.

My central point isn't revolving around MK, its about us. I do think the ban would hinder us though as of now. Its not the main issue though just to clarify. I wanted to say that MK is irrelevant with the issues we are currently facing. I just don't see why we need to ban him if we never had that large of an issue there. I just feel like too many people blame him. And how can we possibly blame him if don't know the MU at the highest degree. If everyone knew MK as well as our top players did...I would reconsider my point.

The idea of both MK banned and legal events are cool though. I want to be able to play and beat MKs. But I also would likeb to ensure that I get adequate MU experience from other characters in tournament too.

 

[sneakytako]

Let me provide you a counter point TC.

By allowing MK, you deprive CP experience that actually makes sense. Nobody takes Shugo or Lain to brinstar unless they main MK, even though Falco and IC's do terrible on brinstar. Really I feel the MK ban is more for MK 2ndaries, it really only makes sense for about 5 characters to not 2nd MK.

Those 5 would be:
Olimar
Diddy
ZSS
Wario (I take this one back, wario has *** MUs)

And like 3 maybes:
Snake
Falco
Marth

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yeah but the again you could also just argue that half the reason people even pick up MK as a 2ndary is for "jank" stages. You take those out of the equation and you'll see less of a obligation to go in the first place. People who secondary MK would rather play their main because honestly , any good MK main knows the ditto to a tee. Its practically a requirement.

 

[Judo777]

MK isn't broken when we're allowed to change rules for relatively arbitrary causes.

Not saying this is what you meant, but this is true for every character in any game ever.

 

[sneakytako]

Yeah but the again you could also just argue that half the reason people even pick up MK as a 2ndary is for "jank" stages. You take those out of the equation and you'll see less of a obligation to go in the first place. People who secondary MK would rather play their main because honestly , any good MK main knows the ditto to a tee. Its practically a requirement.

But it's not just stages though. The fact that MK is the end-all answer to CP stages and chars is stupid. You get CG by D3? Pick MK. You need flat surface to do stuff and get CPed to RC? Pick MK. You have any hard counter/CP stage? Pick MK. That's whats stupid. Removing this part of MK improves the game, and no one has found a solution that doesn't completely ban MK or remove CPs. I wanna be able to CP Delphino against falcos, and not facepalm when it turns into their CP with MK. MK should stand for Mortal Kombat, and it doesn't belong in Smash.

 

[Exceladon City]

Funny you mention that because I totally got CPed to RC by Shadow Phoenix at the last S2D. Games 1 and 2 were v and game 3 he pulled out the Skittles Cruise. So, I had to Turtle Wax my mask and get to business. I didn't want to, but it was MK on RC and Luigi is not an option in that MU.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I just don't think its THAT serious, Tako. I mean I understand your points and to extent I agree. I just believe we should toy with stages first if anything. And we differ in our perception of how severe the situation is. I mean aside from that I do agree.

LMAO at Mortal Kombat.

 

[sneakytako]

If MK was a high tier character that does pretty average against all chars and all stages I would be fine with that. But it's so polar that it prevents me from actually picking good CPs/counter chars. That's what makes me believe that it is extreme enough to warrant ban.

I've played in a lot of MK banned tournaments along with MK legal tournaments. MK ban tournaments really open up a lot of possiblities not available in the MK legal realm. And I find that cool, but if you don't I don't hate you for it. But I will facepalm if you think we can beat EC because we have all MK legal tournies.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm not saying that lmao. I AGREE with having both types. I just think going full on ban is dumb like you think full on anti ban is dumb.

 

[sneakytako]

I mean no drunk johns read your OP. It makes it sound like MK ban tournaments are the devil.

 

[DeLux]

After thinking about it, I'm just going to address what I don't like about this whole thread directly:

Tech, you are saying "I think" and "I feel" etc as part of the basis and premise of the argument you are making.

Do you have any hard evidence to back up your claim that an MK Legal reduced stage list metagame is more competitive than a MK Banned / whatever stagelist tournament? Please document your sources, statistics, game theory principles, or whatever disciplinary test of "competitiveness" you are applying to let me know how credible they are.

If you don't or can't, please don't call people out (like myself) on hindering the community. It's insulting and beneath you. Like saying that I (and other members of the MW community) don't already do what you advocate in your last paragraph is particularly offensive. Especially when you're considering how much mentoring I do to players across the country, not including EVERY SINGLE PLAYER in my local scene.

Nobody is saying "You should always ban MK in MI". Do whatever you feel is best. The argument I'd make is that, "I am more likely to come out to Midwest events if MK is banned because I'd be able to talk about a dozen KC players into traveling to an MK banned event as compared to an MK legal one where I'd be hard pressed to get four to fill my car". I extrapolate that to "It appears as if Texas, Colorado, the ATL South and the surrounding Midwest states outside of MO would be more likely to travel to the MW/KS with MK banned". Therefore it would be to the benefit of multiple scenes to run MK banned events if not exclusively at least in conjunction with MK Legal events.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I didn't call you out, Phil.

My address to you and Chi was more so because Chi and I had a conversation about the ban and I know how you feel about it as well. Its not a:

PHIL YOU'RE RUNNING MW INTO THE GROUND!

Post.

Sorry if it seemed that way though. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to prevent what I perceived as a push for a region wide ban. I'm not putting anyone on blast. If I was going to, we could do facts, numbers, stastics, testimonies etc. Its not that serious though. I get how you thought I was doing that though.

 

[Dnyce]

Frequently outplace shugo judo and krys either tie or right behind Mjg and kain



K

 

[clowsui]

Yeah this pretty much all falls on me for wording things poorly to tech in the first place and also slightly misuderstanding Phil

I just think that we shouldn't be afraid to have both legal and banned majors in both sectors of the MW. We should think about how to coordinate between the two halves also to foster unity and develop skill in that respect

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Fino, I forget you exist you lurker lmao.

And I mean I think I put a bit too much emphasis on the first part of my post. That's part of as well. Either way I just wanted to see where everyone stood and address everything in the open. I was drunk and saw this text about a ban and I'm like "***** what?"

 

[clowsui]

***** I sent you that text in THE MIDDLE OF THE EVENING. YOU CAN'T BE TELLING ME THAT YOU WERE DRUNK BEFORE 10

 

[Dnyce]

That is my secret.

 

[Solharath]

I just wanna get better, MK ban or no. Personally I like MK-ban. And it is completely based on the fact that I've had tournament experiences where I went up against an opponent more skilled then I was, had a close match where they won, but despite a very soft counterpick of my character vs. theirs, they fled to MK to seal the next match. It was a very hollow feeling loss after a very fulfilling one. I was outplayed and loved it, and then MK happened. I have reason to feel pro-ban because I saw a textbook case of a player basically fleeing to MK because it was a safezone for them. Nowadays I think they main MK so whatever I ain't even mad when I play 'em now.

...I have more to say but what the hell clowsui do you even know who Tech is?

 

[clowsui]

I do.

He's the father of my child.





















wait

I think I missed a beat on this one.

DIP

 

[Dnyce]

Spend less time getting people to believe I'm good and more time actually practicing. Unfortunately I'm stuck in SD rite nao <.<

After like 2010... Boards became pointless

 

[Exceladon City]

***** I sent you that text in THE MIDDLE OF THE EVENING. YOU CAN'T BE TELLING ME THAT YOU WERE DRUNK BEFORE 10

 

[sneakytako]

Oh btw.

It's time we start taking the "Ralph Cecil" or the "Zinoto" approach to the game.

You mean a 'lets run into Sneakytako's moves' approach?

 

[DeLux]

What is the Zinoto/Cecil approach?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think we can lock this thread now lmao.

Clowsui, ***** I was drunk lonnnnnnng before ten. And I was in class is the worst part. I needed something to get through that ****. My English prof is stupid.

 

[Roller]

 

[Judo777]

Frequently outplace shugo judo and krys either tie or right behind Mjg and kain



K

I think I have only entered 2 tourneys you were present at in the past 2 years. Both times were me getting beat by Logic and one was second round of winners. And one of those I outplaced Kain so if you havent tied him then I think you could have only outplaced me at vengence.

MK is an exception to like 70% of the rules of smash. Like I teach new people to play smash all the time and when I explain the game I have to use the phrase "except Metaknight" at least 15 times while covering the fundamentals lol

 

[DeLux]

I'm only locking this if my question is answered

WHAT DO THEY DO ?

 

[Rabbi Nevins]

Y'all stupid. I wanna play brawl and I main mk, what do you suppose I do sneakytako? Its probably pretty easy for you to make up some bull**** excuse because you don't main mk. Its always easy to make claims and decisions when they don't negatively effect you. Notice how no mk mains are arguing in this, because we are so used to the whiny bull**** community that we are exposed to all the time. Maybe the focus should tend away from being the "best" and more about keeping friends/players in the community.

 

[DeLux]

I would suggest attending MK legal tournaments and using MK. And if you want to dabble in MK banned tournaments, I suggest you find a secondary.

 

[Juushichi]

Or you don't ****ing play in them, just like anyone who doesn't want to ****ing play in an MK-legal tournament. Jesus christ.

This affects you how? You have less tournaments to travel to? If you even travel at all.

 

[Solharath]

Whoa now, calm down you guys. This is like, the opposite of the intent Tech had when he made this thread.

I know I can be salty too, but let's just simmer down and not go for the ban debate and move on to the subject we've already brought up – bringing together a certain unity behind MK-banned events and MK-legal events. I'd like to hear more about this from the people who actually TO in the community, and how they plan to make this work.

 

[Rabbi Nevins]

Or you don't ****ing play in them, just like anyone who doesn't want to ****ing play in an MK-legal tournament. Jesus christ.

This affects you how? You have less tournaments to travel to? If you even travel at all.

Why would I waste my gas traveling to meet new smashers who are clearly going to judge me for my choice of character? I ONLY play this game for fun and to meet people. I'm willing to drive anywhere pretty much for a fun time and to meet cool people. Now that's I've gotten a chance to hang out with Elliot and MJG I can see there are actually people worth traveling for. People who actually have an interest in meeting people and respecting people even if they don't know you. If there weren't smashers who appeared to be personally angry at everyone who mains mk it might be easier to play more. I remember the first tourney I placed at, some random Texan toon link I think shadow1pj decided to pop in randomly and call me garbage because I mained mk. I have no idea who that is, but apparently me maiming mk was enough to have him call me out having no idea who I was. What a way to start a smash career, not being allowed to enjoy a win. It's hard not to have a bias when **** like that happens to you during your first couple of tournies

I'm sorry but you just gave me a really illogical argument. You're saying "just attend an mk legal tourney" while non mk mains now are granted twice as many options and you are speaking as if those are equivalent rights. No clearly they are not. I now have a handicap as a prospective smash player.

 

[Pimp Daddy Supreme]

roller i will MM you for any amount

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Welp, MI is staying legal. But we'll keep traveling out to other events of course.

Someone might even host a few banned events here, who knows. But we'll be here supporting our neighbors and calling Kentucky free as we've been doing.



Delux, too lazy to answer your question right now..lol

 

[DeLux]

Why would I waste my gas traveling to meet new smashers who are clearly going to judge me for my choice of character? I ONLY play this game for fun and to meet people. I'm willing to drive anywhere pretty much for a fun time and to meet cool people. Now that's I've gotten a chance to hang out with Elliot and MJG I can see there are actually people worth traveling for. People who actually have an interest in meeting people and respecting people even if they don't know you. If there weren't smashers who appeared to be personally angry at everyone who mains mk it might be easier to play more. I remember the first tourney I placed at, some random Texan toon link I think shadow1pj decided to pop in randomly and call me garbage because I mained mk. I have no idea who that is, but apparently me maiming mk was enough to have him call me out having no idea who I was. What a way to start a smash career, not being allowed to enjoy a win. It's hard not to have a bias when **** like that happens to you during your first couple of tournies

I'm sorry but you just gave me a really illogical argument. You're saying "just attend an mk legal tourney" while non mk mains now are granted twice as many options and you are speaking as if those are equivalent rights. No clearly they are not. I now have a handicap as a prospective smash player.

Maybe you should take your advice and not tie your community identity to your character. Objectively speaking, you have just as many options as the next player when it comes to a split in MK legal and MK banned tournaments. A Non-MK main can't use MK in an MK banned tournament just as you can't use MK in an MK banned tournament. If you choose to not attend an MK Banned event because "you main MK", perhaps you should acknowledge your unwillingness to play a secondary character (which nearly every character in the cast is forced to for counter picking reasons to some extent).

In the same fashion one would call on someone who is pro-ban to man up and learn how to fight against your MK with superior player skill, I would call on you to man up and learn how to fight with a secondary character using your superior player skill. You have just as many options as the next player, you just refuse to exercise those options to their fullest extent.

 

[Pimp Daddy Supreme]

counterpicks are ********

 

[DeLux]

@Gio: You Only Counter Pick Once

 

[MJG]

You might think that we'd be able to build a scene without thinking about MK tech, and on a small scale you would be right. However, when it comes to going out of state, we would alienate the people in our scene who hate mk by attending tournaments that have him legal. These people do not want to travel 8+ hours for good competition only to lose to meta knight in pools/bracket when they believe he should be banned in the first place.

I realize this falls into the mindset part of the OP, but out in Kansas there are no large tournaments or powerhouse states for 7+ hours in any given direction. If we went about alienating such a substantial part of our already small community to attend mk legal tournaments, our local scene could start to fall apart, which would set us back months of effort and reduce our scene to just a few good players. This is the primary reason why I pushed for KS to carpool to Z3 in Colorado in July instead of Rage. For comparison, we have more than 3 cars worth of people interested in Z3, however as far as I know it would only be MJG, Bpow, Delux, and myself if we were going to Rage.

That said, I honestly do not believe MK is the issue. As mentioned, most other regions and even some states in the midwest do not ban him. I believe people are just as capable of going out of state to learn the meta knight matchup as they are any other matchup, if not more so because main/pocket knights are so highly concentrated in areas where he is legal.

I agree with everything about the mindset. Every single large leap in skill I have gone through since I started in January has come right after something inspirational in my career. (Vinnie visiting kc in march, my first regional in april, Ally staying in kc during may, etc.) I believe I will be one of the best before too long, and I want to drag KS back up with me where it belongs.

I don't agree with the part that I bolded. Honestly, I feel like the idea that "MK is broken" was implemented into the minds of the new players when they started joining the scene in KS. I say this because MK was banned at the start of Lux's tournaments. I've expressed my thoughts on the MK ban with just a few people in the past...I feel like this needs to be said.

Before I started using MK seriously in tournament play, I have never believed that he should be banned. Maybe its because most of my training came from wifi, but I honestly don't believe that people can use the excuse that MK is broken. I have always felt like me losing to MK was my fault. I know that I have to make my mistakes as minimal as possible when playing TL and I have to do an even better job of playing on point against MK. Sure he has better options than the entire brawl cast, but a lot of those options can be negated if you bait the MK player into using a move that can be punished by whatever character you are using at that point. That can be said for any MU. Its 2012. Most players (at least the veterans of this game) shouldn't have many issues with most MUs. That excuse is definitely thrown out the door at a higher level of game play since MUs aren't as important at that level.