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The Last Time I Will Do This
- Thread starter ZTD | TECHnology
- Start date
MJG
Smash Hero
Oh and roller, I will MM your ICies with my MK the next time we are at the same tourney.
Pimp Daddy Supreme
gio 2.0
lol mjg i get to make my withdrawal first :kobe:
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
Skill lvl + character you main I think affect alot of how you view MK, which is why I don't always entirely agree with the ban. Cause sometimes I see people who complain about MK the most and their character is just *** vs alot of high tiers, or they are just really bad at the MU
All MK banned tournaments do is influence people to play other high tiers. Or play a character with a gimmick on the other. I feel like alot of players in general in this community just want to try to rely on gimmicks to win rather than improve, and that's all this game is without MK even more. Gimmicky as **** lol
You can only improve by playing alot, and with the right people. If you don't put time into it then you won't get better or be able to compete with the best. It's as simple as that, when was the last time you played for like a good 5 hrs just trying to find out MU specific stuff? Never lol
The stage debate is just opinion and how you want to view the game really. All perspective
All MK banned tournaments do is influence people to play other high tiers. Or play a character with a gimmick on the other. I feel like alot of players in general in this community just want to try to rely on gimmicks to win rather than improve, and that's all this game is without MK even more. Gimmicky as **** lol
You can only improve by playing alot, and with the right people. If you don't put time into it then you won't get better or be able to compete with the best. It's as simple as that, when was the last time you played for like a good 5 hrs just trying to find out MU specific stuff? Never lol
The stage debate is just opinion and how you want to view the game really. All perspective
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,303
Averil, I disagree with your opinion in the first paragraph. Everything else is true, but as I've expressed for every similar argument, most of that is immaterial.
Bonds, Unity and I have been hitting the recruitment trail hard. However, if we legalized MK at the next tournament under the context that you and I would be using MK, we'd lose a lot of attendance from the get go. When recruiting new people to the scene, MK's (even at the level of Collin and mine) even before we invite people to the tournaments have driven prospective people away. They get a look at the MU Chart and the Tier List as they seek information to get better and even newcomers can see a dead end in the game theory structure assuming rational decision making. In terms of growth, I would wince every time Collin picked MK when he was playing with new people because I knew it meant me having to talk them into not leaving the scene at a later time.
When I was contemplating the direction of moving forward with the tournaments for COS with Ryan, all the new players were pretty clear about which direction they wanted the tournament series to go. There's something about the best player using the best character that causes people to lose hope. But if the best player uses not the best character, things get pretty hype for the new comers. Once they get emotionally invested in the game, then they are typically more inclined to go through the rigors of learning the MK MU as individual players.
It's not a question as a TO about broken or not broken. It's a question of fostering growth and attendance. So far, MK banned has clearly and unequivocally boosted interest and attendance in Lawrence. And while you have a right to question down that line of logic, it would be more fruitful for you to show how to boost attendance with MK legal. Ideally when we grow from the 20 or so members we have in our community to larger, we can have the logistics to both host MK banned and MK legal tournaments. Believe it or not, that's what I envisioned as the plan and why I've been training Bonds so hard to "take my place" as the TO. But if you sat there and told me, "Make MK legal," I'd like to know how we'd grow as a scene since hosting tournaments would become unviable without obscene losses to the TO's pocketbook.
Broken and not broken and unbeatable and not unbeatable and getting better are aspects to be considered and determined by the players themselves. But when my money is on the line and I'm fronting the venue and prize pot guaranteed out of my pocket and we're busting our ***** trying to improve attendance, it would be irrational for us to take the option that doesn't help our scene the most. So objectively speaking, I agree with Ryan's sentiments.
@kain: the last time I did that was last night (admittedly it was closer to 4 hours) for wolf
Been doing that for quite a bit now since PS4. Two times in a row is enough for me to get my *** in gear lol
Bonds, Unity and I have been hitting the recruitment trail hard. However, if we legalized MK at the next tournament under the context that you and I would be using MK, we'd lose a lot of attendance from the get go. When recruiting new people to the scene, MK's (even at the level of Collin and mine) even before we invite people to the tournaments have driven prospective people away. They get a look at the MU Chart and the Tier List as they seek information to get better and even newcomers can see a dead end in the game theory structure assuming rational decision making. In terms of growth, I would wince every time Collin picked MK when he was playing with new people because I knew it meant me having to talk them into not leaving the scene at a later time.
When I was contemplating the direction of moving forward with the tournaments for COS with Ryan, all the new players were pretty clear about which direction they wanted the tournament series to go. There's something about the best player using the best character that causes people to lose hope. But if the best player uses not the best character, things get pretty hype for the new comers. Once they get emotionally invested in the game, then they are typically more inclined to go through the rigors of learning the MK MU as individual players.
It's not a question as a TO about broken or not broken. It's a question of fostering growth and attendance. So far, MK banned has clearly and unequivocally boosted interest and attendance in Lawrence. And while you have a right to question down that line of logic, it would be more fruitful for you to show how to boost attendance with MK legal. Ideally when we grow from the 20 or so members we have in our community to larger, we can have the logistics to both host MK banned and MK legal tournaments. Believe it or not, that's what I envisioned as the plan and why I've been training Bonds so hard to "take my place" as the TO. But if you sat there and told me, "Make MK legal," I'd like to know how we'd grow as a scene since hosting tournaments would become unviable without obscene losses to the TO's pocketbook.
Broken and not broken and unbeatable and not unbeatable and getting better are aspects to be considered and determined by the players themselves. But when my money is on the line and I'm fronting the venue and prize pot guaranteed out of my pocket and we're busting our ***** trying to improve attendance, it would be irrational for us to take the option that doesn't help our scene the most. So objectively speaking, I agree with Ryan's sentiments.
@kain: the last time I did that was last night (admittedly it was closer to 4 hours) for wolf
Been doing that for quite a bit now since PS4. Two times in a row is enough for me to get my *** in gear lol
I was only at vengeance, I watched you lose to logic the first time on stream tho ;o
was the highest placing MW player at revenge and the one siis I attended as well as one of the 3 people in the MW to make it out of pools at apex (thought u were there too)
IMO, none of these should be considered accomplishments... MW sux
On topic. Mk should be legal IMO (even tho I'm bad at the MU and lose to him a lot) and everyone should play cpu lvl 3 7 and 9 to get better
Pimp Daddy Supreme
gio 2.0
vaffanculo
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I feel like everyone that goes to smashfests around here tend to focus more on getting "nexties" instead of helping each other figure out match-ups and point out habits through drilling. I used to drill the Olimar match-up against Hilt with Sonic, ICs, Luigi and Meta Knight because he would give me info on the character and point out my bad habits and I used that new knowledge in every match we played.
Yes, there is a point in which you have to be self-analytical, but it does help a great deal if someone tells you stuff about X character that you wouldn't know otherwise. Matches without some kind of beneficial knowledge exchange is basically pointless. Same goes for anybody that has a solid handle on MK (main or secondary). People are so wrapped up in not losing that they'd rather beat you and move on than sit down and go over some things. You say MK scares off newer players, but do you sit down with a player later in the tournament and go over some stuff with them after they get served by MK?
TL;DR
Aim to be more helpful towards smashers whether they are old or new.
Yes, there is a point in which you have to be self-analytical, but it does help a great deal if someone tells you stuff about X character that you wouldn't know otherwise. Matches without some kind of beneficial knowledge exchange is basically pointless. Same goes for anybody that has a solid handle on MK (main or secondary). People are so wrapped up in not losing that they'd rather beat you and move on than sit down and go over some things. You say MK scares off newer players, but do you sit down with a player later in the tournament and go over some stuff with them after they get served by MK?
TL;DR
Aim to be more helpful towards smashers whether they are old or new.
Pimp Daddy Supreme
gio 2.0
lol i always try to give tips for beating mk but no one listens to me
their loss :kobe:
their loss :kobe:
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
9 388 002 554 133 119
Bonds
Smash Journeyman
@ Excel
He sits down and talks with newer players about matchups and why they are losing all the time. I was a beneficiary when I started with the scene, and still am. I believe it has helped immensely in my career so far and that I probably would not have achieved my current level of skill without those discussions. I believe this goes for most of the new players in the KC area as well.
@ Averil
I respect the way you look at things and agree with it on a personal level, but unfortunately like Phil said, the newer players do not yet think that way. When you come back down to KS, I think you should join us in talking to our new players about the issue. If enough people change their minds within our community, we won't have to limit our traveling destinations in order to get more of KS to come out, which I think would be a very positive thing for our community in terms of improvement.
He sits down and talks with newer players about matchups and why they are losing all the time. I was a beneficiary when I started with the scene, and still am. I believe it has helped immensely in my career so far and that I probably would not have achieved my current level of skill without those discussions. I believe this goes for most of the new players in the KC area as well.
@ Averil
I respect the way you look at things and agree with it on a personal level, but unfortunately like Phil said, the newer players do not yet think that way. When you come back down to KS, I think you should join us in talking to our new players about the issue. If enough people change their minds within our community, we won't have to limit our traveling destinations in order to get more of KS to come out, which I think would be a very positive thing for our community in terms of improvement.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Forced to pick up a secondary for MK banned tournaments because someone was too salty they lost to a mid-level MK.
Help.
Help.
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
janky counter picks and having banned characters are entirely different. How can you even compare that?
Banned characters FORCES secondaries while janky counter picks only suggests it. Not by any means the same. The principle of the matter still stands.
Banned characters FORCES secondaries while janky counter picks only suggests it. Not by any means the same. The principle of the matter still stands.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Help I use a character with fundamental flaws on certain stages in tournament.
Help I constantly lose to an MK player that doesn't even place at nationals.
Help I can't play Brawl with my character any more because someone was too upset an MK player got in that booty.
Help I'm ********.
Help I constantly lose to an MK player that doesn't even place at nationals.
Help I can't play Brawl with my character any more because someone was too upset an MK player got in that booty.
Help I'm ********.
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
Okay so in that case youre equating having to choose a secondary out of preference for your janky stages to forcing a secondary or not attending altogether.
How in your mind are those equivalent? You just mocked what goddy said as if choosing a secondary for janky stages is the same punishment.
its so far in the games history and peoples abilities are well established. If a ban was going to happen it should have already happened. Its completely unfair to wait until there is a well established metagame to ban. Someone who may have spent YEARS practicing mk now has to pick up a secondary which may not be that easy for them.
How in your mind are those equivalent? You just mocked what goddy said as if choosing a secondary for janky stages is the same punishment.
its so far in the games history and peoples abilities are well established. If a ban was going to happen it should have already happened. Its completely unfair to wait until there is a well established metagame to ban. Someone who may have spent YEARS practicing mk now has to pick up a secondary which may not be that easy for them.
D
Deleted member
Guest
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,303
Nope, nobody is stopping you from hosting your own MK legal tournament. Sorry, try again.
I could just go back to auto-forfeiting those games like I used to in the past you're right >_>
Might as well not attend if I'm auto-forfeiting though :\
Point goes to you if I may say so myself
Just saw your edit: WHATTTTT the entire discipline of public policy implementation just died a little lol
D
Deleted member
Guest
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
That is an exaggerating. There is a fundamental difference between something that is FORCED BY LAW and something that is just difficult. If you cant agree there is a fundamental, logical difference, between an infinite force and a strong force then I cant agree with what you are trying to say. In physics there are plenty of situations that are difficult or unlikely, like tunneling through a large potential. However even a minute possibility involves ENTIRELY different mathematics and logic then an infinite potential. You can argue all you want, there is a difference between something concrete and something possible.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,303
I understand what you're trying to say, but honestly all of that doesn't matter
-established one claimed they are forced to pick up a secondary for X reason whether it be rules of metagame dictating trends
-established that if they disagree with rules, they are free to host own tournament with his ideal rules
-therefore established it's impossible to force anyone to attend tournament where they don't like ruleset for whatever reason
- therefore established the idea anyone is being forced to pick up a secondary (whether it be because of MK Ban or Janky stages) is incoherent
-established one claimed they are forced to pick up a secondary for X reason whether it be rules of metagame dictating trends
-established that if they disagree with rules, they are free to host own tournament with his ideal rules
-therefore established it's impossible to force anyone to attend tournament where they don't like ruleset for whatever reason
- therefore established the idea anyone is being forced to pick up a secondary (whether it be because of MK Ban or Janky stages) is incoherent
Rabbi Nevins
Smash Lord
I agree at this point it doesnt matter lol, i was just arguing for the sake of arguing. I really dont want to hold grudges with anyone I just want to be able to be SURE that if I play this game and want to be better ill have that option. Its stupid to practice and then it all is meaningless 4 years after the game even came out.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I wish we could capture your stupid and fuel our cars with it.
Pimp Daddy Supreme
gio 2.0
we should get KS to come i need more :money:
Pimp Daddy Supreme
gio 2.0
W.C.N
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2012
- Messages
- 1,120
What money when KS comes to MI they ask us to pay for their trip, the better option is let me and thugz enter every pool that's like 8 times the $ KS brings
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
That's directed towards those that don't take the time to help. I know your track record very well. Because of you I only do SND and LD2 when playing ICs.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
He's referring to when you had agreed to shoot the Kansas car $50 bucks if they came out here for gas. And they were relying on that. If it wasn't for me and Thugz, MJG woulda been coughing up that tournament money he won lol.There were favors involved? Do tell
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
I'm still proban.
Also the last time I spent hours a day working on a MU was in Jamuary, I didn't want to lose to a player who at the time would get dead last at every tournament unless he lucked out and ran into me because Sheik vs ICs is unwinnable.
After the Month of January, I became a beast at the Sheik vs ICs MU, you can ask Lux/Roller. It was a complete waste of time, because unfortunately I'm not a good enough player to consistently win -3 MUs. I would have had to improve at at least double the rate of said player, and well I guess I'm just too ****ty to do that.
So please excuse me for not "manning up" or "being estrogen filled."
Also the last time I spent hours a day working on a MU was in Jamuary, I didn't want to lose to a player who at the time would get dead last at every tournament unless he lucked out and ran into me because Sheik vs ICs is unwinnable.
After the Month of January, I became a beast at the Sheik vs ICs MU, you can ask Lux/Roller. It was a complete waste of time, because unfortunately I'm not a good enough player to consistently win -3 MUs. I would have had to improve at at least double the rate of said player, and well I guess I'm just too ****ty to do that.
So please excuse me for not "manning up" or "being estrogen filled."
Just put in the time to read this argument.
All I see is: "I'm pro-ban because I get CPd to janky stages by a Pocket Knight when I could just ban janky stages in the first place."
The Japanese stagelist should be a standard for every tournament.
Unity and Apex stagelists are all bad.
All I see is: "I'm pro-ban because I get CPd to janky stages by a Pocket Knight when I could just ban janky stages in the first place."
The Japanese stagelist should be a standard for every tournament.
Unity and Apex stagelists are all bad.
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
You're blind then.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm not going to waste my time hosting an MK allowed tournament only for no one to show up because they're too stupid to realize they're bad.
It's my way or the highway.
hurr
durrr
The APEX Stage List is near golden what are you talking about? The worst CPs on it are Halberd and Frigate, semi jank is Delfino.
The Japanese stage list is fine, but it is only great if you modify the Japanese ruleset.
- aka Banning Neutrals and no DSR.
The Japanese stage list is fine, but it is only great if you modify the Japanese ruleset.
- aka Banning Neutrals and no DSR.