The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[Lobos]

You don't need ledges to plank...

Then its not called "planking".........then your just campy, no rules against that lol.

 

[ExCeL 52]

I love this rule.. its freaking amazing.

 

[pockyD]

Haha, are you illiterate? We were bouncing points and counter-points back and forth for 10-12 posts. Calling him a troll was just a cheap shot.

Why would you take a cheap shot if you felt we were having intelligent discussion?

The only legitimate argument I've seen against the rule is that planking isn't broken, which I agree with but, is also outside the context of this argument. As AlphaZealot already said, this rule is meant as a substitute for the ridiculously stupid "Stalling: no stalling" rule that bad/lazy TOs already have in place and has absolutely zero teeth. If you don't think edge-camping is broken, then simply don't use either rule... there's not much wrong with that.

Are there other ways to camp other than edge-camping? Sure... but if you feel camping is broken, then why not at least address this one? There are other ways to "break" the game other than camping too (turn on items, turn on 75m), but just because turning off items doesn't stop people from doing MK's infinite cape stall doesn't mean that we don't ban them anyway. No single rule addresses all problems.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Hey guys, I'll be for hire at every tournament I attend. I will offer my service in Ledge Counting. I will count how many times each player in a match grabs the edge.
$5. No refunds.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Hey guys, I'll be for hire at every tournament I attend. I will offer my service in Ledge Counting. I will count how many times each player in a match grabs the edge.
$5. No refunds.

10 billion fails.

 

[M@v]

Hey guys, I'll be for hire at every tournament I attend. I will offer my service in Ledge Counting. I will count how many times each player in a match grabs the edge.
$5. No refunds.

For the last time, read the OP ppl. You know what? Im going to go back and make it nice,big, and red....

 

[Minwu]

70 is too high. You won't be recovering much more than 10 times in a round. 40 is good.

 

[Ryan-K]

Haha, are you illiterate? We were bouncing points and counter-points back and forth for 10-12 posts. Calling him a troll was just a cheap shot.

it also proves you have nothing of substance to say

you dumb useless piece of ****

oh sorry "just a cheap shot"

 

[M@v]

70 is too high. You won't be recovering much more than 10 times in a round. 40 is good.

<____<. Thats WAY too low...

 

[pockyD]

10 billion fails.

I think that's a great idea, actually

get paid $5 to just take a glance at the end screen. I'd do that if it was available to me

 

[Melomaniacal]

10 billion fails.

I'm just messing around, c'mon

For the last time, read the OP ppl. You know what? Im going to go back and make it nice,big, and red....

I'm just messing around, c'mon

To anyone else:
I'm just messing around, c'mon

PS: I'm just messing around, c'mon

 

[M@v]

I think that's a great idea, actually

get paid $5 to just take a glance at the end screen. I'd do that if it was available to me

Who wouldn't? =P

 

[deepseadiva]

Just a clarification...

The results screen only disappears when both players press a, or disconnect their controllers, right?

I remember thinking that it goes away after a set time...

 

[AlphaZealot]

Both players have to exit for the results screen to disappear. It does not disappear after a set amount of time.

 

[Tony_]

This rule cannot be enforced for two reasons: does edge guarding also count towards your count of a game and also, does the totals from the first game apply to the addition of the second?

 

[pockyD]

This rule cannot be enforced for two reasons: does edge guarding also count towards your count of a game and also, does the totals from the first game apply to the addition of the second?

whoooooops

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Brawl, melee, or both?

And how about 100, keep it even.

I stall a lot with falco (in melee), so this might effect my game

 

[Minwu]

Meloloolamaniacalololol just tore apart every possible argument ever.

Irish Mafia, this only applies to Brawl.

 

[pockyD]

Brawl, melee, or both?

And how about 100, keep it even.

I stall a lot with falco (in melee), so this might effect my game

most mathematicians would agree that 70 is even

 

[Melomaniacal]

Meloloolamaniacalololol just tore apart every possible argument ever.

Irish Mafia, this only applies to Brawl.

Wow, really?
I'm even better than I thought I was.

 

[Kage Me]

Stalling is already banned, and showing a judge that your opponent grabbed the ledge more than X times in Y minutes is already a good way to prove he was planking. Must this be an official rule?

 

[Surri-Sama]

Stalling is already banned, and showing a judge that your opponent grabbed the ledge more than X times in Y minutes is already a good way to prove he was planking. Must this be an official rule?

seeing someone who is planking is a good way to see when someone is planking too...we should just use that those numbers are silly and pointless...they only exist to cause in game conflict :o

 

[Kage Me]

seeing someone who is planking is a good way to see when someone is planking too...we should just use that those numbers are silly and pointless...they only exist to cause in game conflict :o

Yes, but it doesn't really matter if you see it - the judge needs to see it, not you.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

it's funny, as much as i used hate seeing the anther vs lain gf2-2 match where anther ledgegrabbed about 70 times, i'm to lazy to count and to cheap to pay maniacal 5$, ledgecamping is a viable and beatable tactic and therefore not be banned. you should only ban when necessary, and telling people to not play at their best is just stupid. we should play the game smartly and promote hard to beat tactics. we really ought to just discourage bans for things like this.

 

[Chris is me]

it's funny, as much as i used hate seeing the anther vs lain gf2-2 match where anther ledgegrabbed about 70 times, i'm to lazy to count and to cheap to pay maniacal 5$,

THERE IS A BUILT IN LEDGE COUNTER IN THE GAME.

ledgecamping is a viable and beatable tactic and therefore not be banned. you should only ban when necessary, and telling people to not play at their best is just stupid. we should play the game smartly and promote hard to beat tactics. we really ought to just discourage bans for things like this.

I personally agree but this isn't what the thread is about. This thread is discussing the arbirary, judge requiring "no planking" rule with "70 and you die".

 

[Kage Me]

ledgecamping is a viable and beatable tactic and therefore not be banned. you should only ban when necessary, and telling people to not play at their best is just stupid. we should play the game smartly and promote hard to beat tactics. we really ought to just discourage bans for things like this.

"Hey, this stage has two ledges!"
"Awesome! Let's both camp on them!"

That's a viable tactic as well. Two players stay at 0% and hope that the other gets hit by a Bob-Omb in the resulting Sudden Death.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So uh, what happends if both players press a after the match and forget about the 70 ledgegrab rule?

 

[bobson]

So uh, what happends if both players press a after the match and forget about the 70 ledgegrab rule?

Then there was clearly no problem with the match anyway.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

@chris i was trying to find a game between skilled players that had close to 70 ledgegrabs to get idea how practical 70 was and that one came close, im aware of the post match counter. this just seams like such a bad rule, i hope whoever would implement either rule would at least give warnings. the idea that someone could play better and still lose without using some truly broken technique is stupid.

 

[M@v]

The WHOLE reason this rule is being discussed as seriously as it is now is because of th built in counter, which means Judges DONT have to see the planking.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I have to say, I'm very surprised at how many people took me seriously

 

[TheStig]

Ugh, Another brawl vs melee debate

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Ugh, Another debate

 

[metaXzero]

Eh. More legit then the "planking is banned" rule.

The use of this by TO's though is dependent on whether they think Planking is broken to the point of considering in the rules.

 

[Pierce7d]

I support this rule. I read the entire thread. To me, it seems that the main arguments against this rule are for people that aren't anti-planking anyway. Also, I suck at it, but I love Melee, that is all I have to say about Melee. This is Brawl, it's not the same, we shouldn't be talking about Melee here.

Reasons for this rule:
It is objective - It is a clear and definitive way to define 'Planking' and measure it.
It is untested, but shows major potential - A big problem I see is that a lot of times, people are not willing to give good ideas a chance. A lot of people just look at this, and say, "Ugh, that will never work," and dismiss it without ever giving it a try. Lots of times, just because the problem is obvious doesn't mean the solution will be. If there were a 'perfect' solution then the problem wouldn't exist. I think at the very least, this extremely viable solution should be given a chance by intelligent TOs who already have some form of 'no planking' in their rule list. If someone gets owned by a fight where they did not plank, and would've won, but grabbed the edge 70 times, we can reconsider this rule. However, for the time being, I think we should at least give it a try, while people are ALREADY getting owned by planking, and judges not seeing it happen. Before worrying about potential problems that MIGHT arise, let's deal with the one already on our hands.
It's already working in a competative scene - See Japan.
It's unlikely to deal collateral damage, and we can adjust or remove it if it does.

Good arguments against this:
It is possible for someone to plank at just the end of the match, and still manage to get around 65 grabs total by the end of the match, if the match already took long. For example, I do not camp vs. my brother who plays Pit. He doesn't edgecamp either, even though I ENCOURAGE him to because it's a good strategy. Regardless, our matches are sometimes very close, and very long, due to the nature of the fight sometime. If I decided to start planking at the end of the fight, I might not reach 70, but I still ended the fight using an illegal tactic. I agree that lower than 70 as the cap is probably too low. Now what? Does the judge decide my planking at the end doesn't count because I only regrabbed 40 times in the last minute, and I only had 25 grabs before that?

Still, that doesn't shut down the rule, it just makes a loop-hole, and there are already plenty of loop-holes in rules throughout life and other games, as well as Brawl. That's not a reason to discard the rule.

Also, for those of you that spoke of simply turning off the time limit, valid point. Let's talk about why we've always had a time limit in the first place. The time is simply an in game feature we take advantage of, because it helps tournaments to end. Feasibly, we could have no time limit, and then we could very rarely have any draws or stalling ever.

Spoiler

(exceptions being suicide moves, in which case we say the player who initiated the move wins, or if both players hit each other and very unluckily, coincidentally die at the same time, we could let them play the sudden death, or the extra stock, or check % or whatever)

However, if this were the case, then PLAYER A could decide, "Camping the ledge is the best way not to let my percentage increase. I'm at a supreme positional advantage so long as I don't try to recover onto the main portion of the stage." PLAYER B then decides, "Well, I'm not going to attack him, I can wait here as long as I like until he comes off that ledge. I can get hit for trying to attack him, I'll wait here. Better yet, I'll go sit on the other ledge." Then the match never finishes, and the tourney lasts forever.
So we use the time limit feature. However, that opens up stalling. Still, despite that loophole and collateral damage, we still agree that a time limit is the smart way to go. Now, we are using the edge grab counter to stop planking. Just like the time limit, it's not perfect, but it's a smart way to go.

 

[fkacyan]

This fails to take into account characters who are excellent at shield pressure. You can get pushed onto the ledge an awful lot by people who tend to push you around a lot (Marth, Lucario, or characters with moves that have massive pushback).

Of course, that's an isolated case. For the most part I really like this rule.

 

[Pierce7d]

This fails to take into account characters who are excellent at shield pressure. You can get pushed onto the ledge an awful lot by people who tend to push you around a lot (Marth, Lucario, or characters with moves that have massive pushback).

Of course, that's an isolated case. For the most part I really like this rule.

I did think about that. This = good point. However, I don't think this will make you breach 70 grabs. Also, I agree that this rule should only be implemented if the timer runs out. If your opponent is planking, don't foolishly try and kill them, and you won't get killed before the timer runs out.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Planking was never broken. This rule is pointless. Learn to deal with it.

 

[Pierce7d]

Planking was never broken. This rule is pointless. Learn to deal with it.

I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it. However, this rule is meant to assist moderation in tournaments where planking is already banned. It is widely agreed to be a ban-able tactic in many tournaments already, and that is not under debate in this thread.

 

[Plairnkk]

Hahahahaha

I love myself++this thread.