The GtaN Brawl General discussion thread! -Wait, did the title change?

[Gichan]

here are a few that own;

whiffed st. hk ultra 2 (you want them to try to punish this move)
whiffed cr. hk ultra 2 (same as above)
this is quite advanced, don't have it down yet myself but you probably **** so try it: armor cancel into ultra 2. Bst time to do it is on your wakeup, they come into attack you input qcb two punches and immediately qcb three kicks. It's the ****.

ultra2 in the middle of one of the opponent's links cause if they even miss one move they are sooo ****ing eating it.

But you can't rely on ultra to win. You gotta love el fuerte to play him, make sure to not only mix up with splashes and tortillas but also use his jumping elbow, that move is very good.

Got any advice for me?

 

[AvariceX]

My advice is if you're name isn't Kai then pick a better character.

Or get really good at RSF.

 

[Gichan]

ceX.....I ****ING hate when people keep saying garbage like that. El Fuerte is amazing, such a fun character to play and win with. When you win, it was through a struggle, mind****, and pure outplaying rather than havng my char do the work for me like let's say rufus. Mother****er's combos are too easy to pull off.

 

[AvariceX]

Oh I hate Rufus too. The problem is that Fuerte is the definition of a gimmick character. You are literally relying on your opponent not understanding how to respond to his mixup. And while a lot of people won't know how to deal with it because of lack of Fuertes, lack of caring about Fuertes, or just the fact that fighting him is different from most matchups and people are often too stubborn too adapt - it just isn't a good idea at high levels.

Mixup characters just aren't very strong in Super especially once your opponent catches on. Even Abel is grossly overrated (don't give me that Abel Ultra 2 **** either - people who get hit by breathless deserve to get hit by it). I would much rather play a mixup character over anyone else in Street Fighter, this is why I moved between Abel, Viper, Akuma, Sakura, and yes - Fuerte - in vanilla, then Abel, Akuma, Makoto, and Seth in Super; and you know where I ended up? ****ing Dhalsim, and at this point it looks very unlikely that I will be switching off of Dhalsim anytime soon. Now Akuma is obviously an incredibly powerful character, but he also has a very solid game outside of his mixup - he is not reliant on it (and for proof of this watch Infiltration vs Vangief to see exactly what it looks like when an Akuma knows how and when to switch between mixup and standard footsies without giving too much away).

Even if you look at EVO, no Fuertes in top 32, meanwhile Juri, Guy, Adon, Vega, Honda, Ken (plus all the top tier tourney staples of course) are all present. It's hard to say how much that means, given that making top 32 meant getting top 2 in a separate 128 man tourney, but Kai was there.

With all that said though, I would be very excited and very happy to see someone prove me wrong. You have no idea how much I want to just play Makoto.

 

[Gichan]

you make it sound like it is no skill to play fuerte. yes against scrubs we just abuse that they don't know how to defend a cross up splash but at high levels we gotta rely more on prediction of their moves or on normals. Fuerte is a bad character but i think he is still viable, and I just love him. I'm just stubborn like that I guess, like how i wouldn't switch from wario even in his dark days. but i don't want to see other fuertes be discouraged, he has the ability to be in one place to the next in a split second that is mad potential.

 

[SRTM]

hmm. If you can connect an aerial heavy punch with an opponent, you can do another heavy punch immediately after. Then possibly a sliding kick. Works for me sometimes.
I can't RSF for the life of me (I use pad and i'm just too slow or something). So instead of that, if you manage to stun them, do a close HK into an ex guac.
As for ultra...I know you can do one immediately after you stun them, but I find it hard to stun/fully charge attack someone in the first place. Wakeup ultra is good too, though a smart opponent always jumps.

 

[Runawayfire]

If you like mixup play Akuma, Ibuki, Viper or Abel. Also, not seeing your character show up in evo is not the biggest deal considering there was so many good players it could have gone sooo many different ways.

If you know the 2d fighting genre well enough to be able to take the calculated risks of characters with bad defence and good offense (which I'm sorry but I don't think any of you really do...) then go ahead and play anybody, hell Gamerbee ran a train on people with a character regarded to be useless.

My Ibuki offensive game is hella paying off for me now, it still requires little to no ****ing up, but when its solid its devastating. Tis the nature of these characters.

 

[Gichan]

yeah jumping heavy to hp to slide is a given combo, but I lkike to go for the mix up instead. Try this one next time, jumping heavy to cr. lk or cr.mk to tortilla/splash. you see if you hit them with a jp. hp and they block you can at least try for a mix up and get the knockdown rather than just going for the next heavy because they'll blcok that one to. RSF is ridiculously hard but so far I can do three hits 60% of the time. I am trying to get it into my game but I choke a lot so right now I am just doing this; dash cancel jump for crossup elbow into heavy into slide. but my goal is at least three hits to slide.

 

[5ive]

lmao bro rufus' bnb is a 1 frame link (lk hp), and the other cool one is 2 one frame links (lk lk hp). love when rufus saves me though. gotta love me that top tier.

anyways, Ill take you down with hakan bruh.

and fuerte is mad fun to watch omg

 

[Runawayfire]

Just like most high level bnbs......

Rufus is madd free to use, he was even like that in vanilla (used to play him myself) but with that new ultra its LOLness. As far as S-tiers go he's certainly more manageable then the other S-tiers of games, and the fact that he's at least an offensive character brings a smile to face.
Dive kick mixups and blowing through moves with jesus kick on reversal is always hilariously broken though haha. I used to feel bad for my opponents...

 

[Pho]

I build off people getting annoyed by my pokes... I'm not going to lie, I don't have much of a game plan when it comes down to playing. My execution is meh, my mix ups are gimmicky and risky, and I watch vids and take bits of people's playstyle and add to mine, so originality is not exactly there. It doesn't take much to catch on to how I play, ask Nate.

 

[5ive]

hakan is where its at period.

oiled lk lk lk too pro.

 

[Pho]

Everytime you oil ANYWHERE, it's a free hit. Just sayin'.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

 

[Gichan]

hell no, despite what I write about Rufus, I ****ing love that guy. He;s interesting, funny, aggressive, fat, and fun to play. It's just when I was fooling aroudn with him i found it kind of easy to use him. All you need down his bnb and it's done. I wanna play him though, he's soo cool. Rufus makes me feel bad for hating on all mk mains because there may actually be people who just like the baddassness of metaknight.

 

[nickcam]

Gi just pick that mexican hawk all day

 

[Iliad]

Gi already plays the mexican't Nick, he plays Fuerte.

Also guys, heads up. Next tourney I'm running (which will hopefully be soon) is going to be instituting the Japanese time rule. TBH should've thought of it before.

For those who aren't aware of how it works, if a match goes to time the person with the most ledgegrabs / most air time (airtime taking precedence) loses. Therefore, you cannot win by timing someone out, you -have- to approach and take the match to them. If we can't ban MK for being broken, atleast we can prevent him from gaying up the game with timeouts.

 

[Tin Man]

timeouts are a legit strategy =/

edit: if ur going to do that iliad, u better use the japanese time limit of 10 minutes

 

[Hype]

That rule sucks

 

[Iliad]

Timeouts are a legit strategy if you're bad at the game and can't beat them within the time limit. Thus, it's NOT a legit strategy. There is no way around that logic, if you NEED to take it to time, you're obviously not skillful enough to finish the match and you don't deserve the win.

Lol Hype, less planking on Swordgard B.

 

[Gichan]

Brawl sucks.

 

[Hype]

I'll ignore your horrible logic for a second.

You can still time people out with these rules; the only difference is the winner is determined by who had less airtime. Do you REALLY think that the best indicator of who was winning is who had the least air time? Do you REALLY think that’s better than stock/percent?

 

[SRTM]

nice. do you use stick GI?
I know that most good fuertes use stick. Pho is telling me I won't get any better with it, than I am now with pad. But I think its pretty much needed for RSF and such...

 

[The_Fool]

Lol Iliad, leave the tinman logic to tinman.

 

[Gichan]

Yeah srtm, i got a te stick for a pretty **** good price, I used a ghetto stick before (hori sc4 edition stick). Thing is rsf is still done on pad, stick is obviously better. You need to consider this though, like REALLY consider this. If you are going to take sf seriously, like going to tournaments and ****, use stick. If not, stay with pad. Don't bother wasting 150+ on a stick and then give up on the game a month or two later.

 

[AvariceX]

Iliad - case to consider:

Player A is playing Ness/Jiggs/Wario/TL/any character that will spend the majority of the match in the air purely by virtue of the character.

Player B is playing MK and attempting to timeout through ledgegrabs. Player B has the lead but screws up and loses the lead seconds before the end of the match. Player A (who was not the one camping and who had the lead) loses due to spending more time in the air.

??

 

[Tin Man]

Fool, wtf are u talking about?

anyways, timing out is a legitimate strategy. Timing someone out is something you do if ur winning because u need to have the lead to win when u time out, therefore if ur bad at the game, u would never even get the lead or be able to hang on to it. Hanging on to the lead is a part of brawl and a significant one at that. It allows you to force the loser to approach. This becomes extremely apparent with several characters, especially dittos where neither character has a projectile (MK dittos would be especially popular). Timing someone out is not an extremely easy thing to do (unless your ahead by a lot and time is really slim).

And with the air time rule, that completely destroys several characters meta games. Avarice named a good amount of them. And when it comes to a character spending more time on the ground, that character can easily time out the other and win, therefore not really solving anything. ICs could really abuse this rule.

 

[SRTM]

Yeah srtm, i got a te stick for a pretty **** good price, I used a ghetto stick before (hori sc4 edition stick). Thing is rsf is still done on pad, stick is obviously better. You need to consider this though, like REALLY consider this. If you are going to take sf seriously, like going to tournaments and ****, use stick. If not, stay with pad. Don't bother wasting 150+ on a stick and then give up on the game a month or two later.

this is the one im looking at
http://www.etokki.com/Joytron Paewang Revolution arcade stick
shoryuken forums said its good, but the stick might need to be replaced. I don't feel like buying a soldering iron and all that crap though. Works on ps3 and 360 which is sick though.

 

[Cruxis]

Gi already plays the mexican't Nick, he plays Fuerte.

Also guys, heads up. Next tourney I'm running (which will hopefully be soon) is going to be instituting the Japanese time rule. TBH should've thought of it before.

For those who aren't aware of how it works, if a match goes to time the person with the most ledgegrabs / most air time (airtime taking precedence) loses. Therefore, you cannot win by timing someone out, you -have- to approach and take the match to them. If we can't ban MK for being broken, atleast we can prevent him from gaying up the game with timeouts.

this is a fucking beautiful rule

why would you people disagree? do you ENJOY 8 minute matches dragging on tournies forever?
this rule will help slow down planking, camping, ledgespamming, and all the other shit tactics that our community loves to abuse

brawl is a fucking stupid game anyway though so whatever

 

[Iliad]

I'll ignore your horrible logic for a second.

You can still time people out with these rules; the only difference is the winner is determined by who had less airtime. Do you REALLY think that the best indicator of who was winning is who had the least air time? Do you REALLY think that’s better than stock/percent?

... No I'm not implying it's the indicator of who's winning the match. I'm saying that because the player who wants to plank, is unable to, because they will LOSE the match because of it. If someone takes a percent lead and planks, don't approach, don't jump, don't move. Time is on YOUR side. Meaning it discourages players from planking when it's so easily solved by just sitting there and letting them plank to hinder them instead of rewarding them.

And tinman if it took skill to hit someone with a gyro, a laser, and then RUN THE **** AWAY, I would never play Brawl, ****ing ever.

Avarice, what I said to Hype applies to your theorem too. It shouldn't ever be taken to time. If you're playing someone who's going to delay and retreat, let them. Sit still, no skin off your nose and it forces them to be aggressive and to approach.

Now, the case that likely worries Hype is he has the lead, and the other person decides to stall himself realizing MK as more air time-- stop and think about it. Do you -really- think there is any character who could plank / airplank against another character enough in the dying minutes of the round without having been open to attacks and pressure the rest of the round? And if it's a MK ditto, they're certainly not going to avoid you with the iliad technique of spotdodge and roll left. I want you to actually sit here and think about it, because you're not. You're jumping at shadows without actually trying it out or playing it out properly in your head.

 

[MRbloke1]

Hey its me Riley AKA MRbloke. Im just popping in too see how the niagara/GTA smash scene is up to. i had to make a new account cuz a problem with my last account didn't let me post. Some might remember me, but if you don't then ill make this my formal introduction

so this is my way of saying hey again, for those who remember me. Also nice to see some SSF4 chat (GO HAWK!)

on the matter of the topic...

A timeout is not a strategy but just the result of someone turtling (or camping) too **** much, so the rule in my opinion is good in theory, but then some bystander has to keep track of the amount of camping
one player does so it doesn't work too well, but then again the ruling is not my decision.

 

[Tin Man]

@ Iliad; I love using this following phrase because it completely own people who say there is no skill in something.

If it doesn't take skill to camp, and specifically in my case, to lazer and gyro, then have someone who never touched ROB, and who is far inferior to my skill level use ROB and perform the same strategy.

Shit, I'd even like to see you do it Iliad, without practice, and try beating Raidos with ROB.

You will not be able to, and that's because camping takes skill. Its zoning, and controlling an area. Its also spacing, taking advantage of a range available to myself and not to my opponent. If not done right, the opponent will be able to get in due to the camper's lack of control, and lack of spacing. Just like any other aspect of this game, this is a skill which requires experience, knowledge, creativity, and efficiency.

I'm sure you have been able to recognize others on their camping ability, recognizing how well they do it, and realizing how effective it is. Even top players camp, its just in their characters metagame. Back agin to the ROB example, ROB would be no where near as good as he is if it weren't for camping. You can't take it personally and say that camping shouldn't be allowed because you think its gay. That's an unfair reason to destroy a characters metagame. (basically saying u can't ruin a character based on an extremely subjective motive).

And with other characters, Wario for instance, they play in the air. More than often a Wario will jump, double jump, air dodge whatever u throw at them and then just land again. This method of empty hopping is completely necessary as it drastically increases their options, allowing for more developed mindgames, and ultimately having the opponent require more skill (mentally: mindgames, having to consider options, to find the best route to solve the current situation and to set up in the future considering how ur opponent will react and consider to your reactions, etc) in defeating the Wario's strategy. This rule simply gives the loser and advantage. Why should the loser be given an unnecessary advantage, especially one they didn't earn. All of a sudden u have to lose to win, which leads into the following, "let the Wario jump all he wants, imma just dodge roll away all day, and react to his aggressive strategy as brawl benefits defensive strategies, therefore giving me an advantage where i wouldn't normally have one?

Planking can be solved by simply adding a ledge grab rule. Therefore limiting the amount of time people have spent on the edge. It doesn't completely shut down the planking strategy, however provides a makeshift solution to prevent it from being abused. Someone running away in the air is stoppable. They don't have any invincibility frames that they can continue using to help their defense, they are in the air, a disadvantaged position, they must land on the stage in order to continue their evasive maneuvers, and so much more that makes it completely possible to stop them. Failure to stop them is the fault of the opponents lack of skill in being able to penetrate the defenses of the staller.

The japanese rule is extremely unsuiting to this game, and primitive in comparison to the SBR ruleset.

 

[AvariceX]

I

have to


agree with








Tin Man?

Sorry, but camping certainly does take skill. I still find it funny that people complain about matches being taken to time. Has no one noticed that most sports use time as the primary determinant for ending a match? When's the last time someone complained about a hockey game going to time?


But now I have places to go because I don't even know what's real anymore.

 

[Hype]

How is this air time rule superior to the ledge grab limit in any way?

 

[Iliad]

Tinman, I'm quite impressed with how eloquent and proficient you were in presenting your argument. To the point that I'm considering changing my mind on the rule.

On the other hand, while the act of camping and doing it properly may take some apparent skill, the need to camp implies that one does not have the skill to finish the match. Tinman I would very much like to see you against any metaknight who wishes to take the lead from you and then flee from you for the rest of the round. I'd be willing to bet money that -I- could outplank you EASILY with MK.

And I'll also take you up on that ROB challenge.

Hype, imho, the air time rule is more prevalent because when someone planks the ledge it's obvious in its act and if abused seriously enough will garner unwanted attention to the planker. With air planking however, someone needs only approach here and there, and create the illusion of an offense while in reality avoiding at all times. The player may feel that the air planker is attacking them but they'll quickly find themselves frustrated and confused as to why they can't effectively strike back. Air planking is easier to hide and far more effective than ledge planking, which is why I'm all for the japanese rule.

*edit*

Avarice, the thing is, this is a fighting game. The premise is to end the game before the timelimit is reached. The best analogy I can think of is the UFC. Does the guy win if it goes to time? Sure. But is it entertaining, is it indicative of the skill necessary to pummel the opponent or the fear of losing and instead clutching to the "easy way out".

Fact of the matter is, brawl is a game. A competitive game in our case, but a game none the less. We compete because it's fun and we want entertainment in the form of high level play.

Risk free play such as camping is not fun, and it's not entertaining to anyone. Why even support the concept?

My favourite special operators group has a motto that goes quite nicely with this:

"Who dares wins"

 

[Cruxis]

Risk free play such as camping is not fun, and it's not entertaining to anyone. Why even support the concept?

My favourite special operators group has a motto that goes quite nicely with this:

"Who dares wins"

itll always be entertaining to the guy who has the money in his hand at the end, unfortunately.


but honestly illiad even if you put in the rule im sure all of these people are still gonna come.

its just like the new pokemon games. we all bitch about how gay the new pokemon are but we still end up getting the new games anyway.

 

[Tin Man]

@ Iliad: Just because it implies something, doesn't mean its tru, and therefore is an nonviable reason to use to back up the necessity of a rule set change. The need to camp also implies that the opponent doesn't have the skill to outcamp, therefore not having the skill to force an approach. It also implies that the camper just objectively has a character with a stronger camping game and therefore is using it to their advantage, essentially meaning that it is implied that the camper is simply taking advantage of his superior range.

With the MK part, I strongly believe that ur MK will do far worse than your Marth vs me. Shit, whether u choose to accept or not is ok but I'd 20$ MM ur MK vs my ROB

And ROB challenge is just 1 example, I highly doubt u can proficiently camp with Snake, Samus, Toon Link, and shit, even Falco.

Air planking and camping is beatable, if the opponent can't win, then tough luck for them, get better.

Avarice, the thing is, this is a fighting game. The premise is to end the game before the timelimit is reached. The best analogy I can think of is the UFC. Does the guy win if it goes to time? Sure. But is it entertaining, is it indicative of the skill necessary to pummel the opponent or the fear of losing and instead clutching to the "easy way out".

Fact of the matter is, brawl is a game. A competitive game in our case, but a game none the less. We compete because it's fun and we want entertainment in the form of high level play.

Risk free play such as camping is not fun, and it's not entertaining to anyone. Why even support the concept?

My favourite special operators group has a motto that goes quite nicely with this:

"Who dares wins"

Everything in bold is subjective.

 

[Mikey7]

@ Iliad: Just because it implies something, doesn't mean its tru, and therefore is an nonviable reason to use to back up the necessity of a rule set change. The need to camp also implies that the opponent doesn't have the skill to outcamp, therefore not having the skill to force an approach. It also implies that the camper just objectively has a character with a stronger camping game and therefore is using it to their advantage, essentially meaning that it is implied that the camper is simply taking advantage of his superior range.

With the MK part, I strongly believe that ur MK will do far worse than your Marth vs me. Shit, whether u choose to accept or not is ok but I'd 20$ MM ur MK vs my ROB

And ROB challenge is just 1 example, I highly doubt u can proficiently camp with Snake, Samus, Toon Link, and shit, even Falco.

Air planking and camping is beatable, if the opponent can't win, then tough luck for them, get better.



Everything in bold is subjective.

OHHHH 20 BUX A REAL MM LETS DO THIS

no pussing out - tinmans down, u gotta be too iliad

he just called u garbage, you gonna take that?

lets go!

 

[nickcam]

Man tinman what a good arguement u put forward. However the flaw in ur argument is thatt u dont enter tournaments cause ur too scared of getting beaten for free. Therefore your opinion is invalid. Might aswell stay on the ledge all day in training mode since you like it so much. Hit the sticks.

 

[Mikey7]

Man tinman what a good arguement u put forward. However the flaw in ur argument is thatt u dont enter tournaments cause ur too scared of getting beaten for free. Therefore your opinion is invalid. Might aswell stay on the ledge all day in training mode since you like it so much. Hit the sticks.

quoted on request for hype purposes