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* The God Kais Dojo * Cincinnati, Ohio

Overswarm

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I think the difference between MK's god-like properties and those in Melee is that there are MULTIPLE MK-level characters in Melee.
 
Doctor X

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
@Xisin and others:

I'm saying that Melee is more difficult than Brawl. This doesn't mean that Brawl is, in an absolute sense, easy to be good at. It's just easier.

Also, I'm not saying that everyone has to play Melee. I brought it up mostly cause I want to play it and I'm trying to goad the God Kais into joining me. I'd actually really like to see what they're capable of.

Overswarm said:
I play these games as well, and have placed top 3 in Street Fighter tournaments and have stayed the night with some of the world's best GG and SF2 players all in the same house, playing traditional fighters all night. I beat some people that had been playing Guilty Gear for years by picking up Eddie and Sol Bad Guy and copying all the combos they did. It's mostly muscle memory.
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I don't care how much of any of those games against mid-level, you're still quite capable of misunderstanding them. You played Melee a lot, and yet you still call it a "muscle memory game" when it is anything but. Muscle memory plays a part, yes, but that doesn't make it the sum and total of the game.

You should know this, but you deliberately ignore it and have been doing so since Brawl came out. You want to be recognized for your skill at Brawl, and are all too willing to downplay Melee in the process. I've listened to and even agreed with you in the past, but at this point... I'm just tired of it.

Melee: You make 1 mistake and you're dead.

Translation: You punish one mistake and you win.

Brawl: You make a dozen mistakes and you're dead.

Translation: You have to punish effectively at least a dozen mistakes to win the match, and you must do this consistently.
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An obvious distortion-- so obvious, in fact that you're pointing out the steps you're taking to perform it.

Either way you put it the "dozen" mistakes must still be made by one player or the other. Both players still have eleven strikes before they're out. The game is simply more forgiving. There is no denying that.

To put it in perspective for you:

People trained on level one computers in Melee to get better and saw impressive results by doing so.
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No, they didn't. I should know from experience. I practiced against level 1's all day got my tech skill up to the level of almost any Fox you can find barring the likes of SilentWolf, and you know what? I still went 0-2 all the way across my pool at Pound.

Why? Because there is far more to the game than technical skill. Again, you of all people should know this. You never played technical to begin with and you did better than me.

People never train on computers at all in Brawl, because it is worthless save for learning technical things like IC chain grabs. You need a human opponent to practice, because it is a mental game with a million more variables.
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The only thing this proves is the removal of the technical variable from Brawl to Melee, nothing more. If you think anybody got any true success in Melee without playing human opponents... see above. :rolleyes:

All of this is in Brawl.... and edgeguarding is no longer "I hit you with one move", but more "I hit you with several moves repeatedly, calling you every time and forcing you into bad positions where I can intercept".
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I can find dozens of videos of people being forced to use several moves to properly edgeguard in Melee. Q already posted one.

This isn't true in the slightest, except the MK one. >_>
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What was your primary strategy before you switched to Metaknight? Beyond gyro to laser, that is.

Melee's fun and all, and I really enjoy the game.... but it was a muscle memory game. The thing that made smash so amazing when I first started playing it was that there were no "set combos" and you had REALLY get good to learn to follow people's DI. Then I realized there WERE set combos, and I repeated those ad infinitum just like everyone else.
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No you didn't. You played Melee by camping and exploiting stage and matchup imbalances as much as possible-- generally the same thing you do in Brawl just with less success because people can punish you harder when they catch you. I never once saw you do anything like what Mango and M2K do. Or Armada, for that matter.

It takes more skill to play Roy effectively in Brawl than it does to play Marth.

Every character in Brawl is Roy.
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What a ridiculous notion. Maybe we should all just play bad characters, then, because obviously that takes the most "skill."
 
Overswarm

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Dr. X:

You get angry way too easy, and it shows in both your arguments and your personality. Cool it.

I'll leave your post alone, but you might want to keep in mind I played Melee longer than you, at a higher level than you, and have done the same thing in Brawl. I'm not some random noob spouting off theories, I played them both and actively watched the highest level of play nonstop and even flew to New York to write articles detailing a play-by-play of Ken vs. Mew2King during M2K's rise to power.

I played them both, and Melee was much, much easier to get better in. You could learn matchups by playing computers, and that is no joke. If you want to see a prime example of it, look at M2K. Also, M2K was the king of campers. He beat Bum in this way, and 4 stocked Darkrain this way.
 
Xisin

Xisin

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
842
Location
Morehead, KY
NNID
Xisin14
@ Y.b.M

I rarely choose MK, if i do its because i simply do not feel like running away from mk on rainbow cruise for over half the stage. Being gimped on rc with marth is somewhat common, to add to that gimping someone while playing mk is common. Marth is only good against mk at the part of RC that has walkoffs, and he does so-so on the ship. i personalyl feel marth/mk is 50/50... until you add the offstage factor. then mk ***** marth horribly off the stage if im not careful, and if i do get careless i lose my stock.

It might be the same situation for you if kirby much like mk had a bad stage.
 
Doctor X

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
@Overswarm: I'm aware of my anger problem. I apologize for it as always. But I don't recognize your appeal to authority in the slightest. I stand by what I've said.

I also don't disrespect you for the way you play. I'm just pointing out that it's quite different from how you're leading everyone to believe. You didn't play technical and you didn't just throw out rehearsed combos ad infinitum. It wasn't your style.
 
QUIVO

QUIVO

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
3,297
Location
Columbus Ohio
OS sorry to but in, but I don't think you can say Melee was easier when you were just an average player in melee. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall you ever beating anyone like Vidjo, Drephen, etc
 
Y.b.M.

Y.b.M.

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
3,153
Location
Dallas, Texas
Xisin said:
@ Y.b.M

I rarely choose MK, if i do its because i simply do not feel like running away from mk on rainbow cruise for over half the stage. Being gimped on rc with marth is somewhat common, to add to that gimping someone while playing mk is common. Marth is only good against mk at the part of RC that has walkoffs, and he does so-so on the ship. i personalyl feel marth/mk is 50/50... until you add the offstage factor. then mk ***** marth horribly off the stage if im not careful, and if i do get careless i lose my stock.

It might be the same situation for you if kirby much like mk had a bad stage.
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Well I know you overall go Marth...that's why i put "possibly" next to yo name...Just making a statement that people would rather pick MK in a tough situation over any other character in the game... IMO you have the Best Marth On the Earth....Hands Down the Midwest, judging from the Circuit Event Rankings....hehe
 
Overswarm

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I beat a lot of good players (my record in tournament against sliq is 1-0 lololololol @ sliq), but not on a large enough or consistent enough basis to call myself anything but above average.

And if Dr. X can say that Melee is harder with his credentials, I can say Melee was easier with mine =P
 
QUIVO

QUIVO

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
3,297
Location
Columbus Ohio
I actually thought about that point, but I completely forgot to bring it up. Dr X from when I last played him is about equal in both games
 
Xisin

Xisin

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
842
Location
Morehead, KY
NNID
Xisin14
Y.b.M. said:
Well I know you overall go Marth...that's why i put "possibly" next to yo name...Just making a statement that people would rather pick MK in a tough situation over any other character in the game... IMO you have the Best Marth On the Earth....Hands Down the Midwest, judging from the Circuit Event Rankings....hehe
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Yay for having a bad day at championships. i lost 8 positions due to that :/
 
Flawless Fan

Flawless Fan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
5,317
Marth is sexy, so is Ike.
I'm assuming the GK are going to Nope's house tourney this weekend? I want Kirby dittos with YbM and Ike dittos with Infern(again)!

Also, why are we debating which SSB game is harder to play. The required skill level of those games in comparison to each other doesn't have any relative importance.
Unless you guys are bored and just have nothing else to do. In that case ignore me.
 
Doctor X

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
TheFanFan said:
Also, why are we debating which SSB game is harder to play. The required skill level of those games in comparison to each other doesn't have any relative importance.
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Well my original point was that I have a different definition of "skill" than Y.b.M. does-- one that includes Metaknight and leans more towards Melee as an indicator. It got a little out of hand from there, I think. :laugh:

Unless you guys are bored and just have nothing else to do. In that case ignore me.
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Probably true.
 
Flawless Fan

Flawless Fan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
5,317
Quivo needs to hurry up and get back in the MW.
I want to play you in friendlies too >:I
 
Kel

Kel

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
4,605
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Dr X was playing Melee since the beginning.

YBM, it's not fair for you to say that MK players don't have any skill when they play Brawl.
 
T

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
OH
We need to figure out a way to get more setups so we can do singles more. Teams is great and all but I really want more singles practice since I think it will help me get better faster. Maybe I just need to show up earlier.
 
nicalobe

nicalobe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
230
Location
Ohio
Next time I can bring a wii and brawl, no tv though. :(

I do have the infinite replay time hack though, incase we have any of those 'too good' moments.
 
clowsui

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
okay so listen up you guys

this week we'll probably end up having 2 training things

one at my house on friday night

one at ed's on wednesday night

unless, of course, you guys just wanna go to ed's, in which case i'm not doing anything on friday
 
Sliq

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
Kel said:
Dr X was playing Melee since the beginning.

YBM, it's not fair for you to say that MK players don't have any skill when they play Brawl.
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Kel, it's more like this:

YBM, it's not fair for you to say that players don't have any skill when they play Brawl.

ICEBURN

I HAVE PINKEYE.

Overswarm said:
I beat a lot of good players (my record in tournament against sliq is 1-0 lololololol @ sliq), but not on a large enough or consistent enough basis to call myself anything but above average.

And if Dr. X can say that Melee is harder with his credentials, I can say Melee was easier with mine =P
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And I trump your credentials and say Melee is harder (bow chicka wow wow). Also, Melee is pretty easy if you're losing all the time, but the winning part is where the trick is.

I BEAT DARKRAIN.


SLIQ OUT.



WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
 
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