* The God Kais Dojo * Cincinnati, Ohio

[Kel]

Aw =( ending time

Blueblade, I'm sorry I forgot all about it! What did you request again? I may have something.

btw, people should vote on the mk poll http://www.smashboards.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=647

 

[Teebs]

It was either Green Tea Coke or Pepsi Shiso (which ever could be found), and Teriyaki Doritos.

 

[Y.b.M.]

Make sure we Ban that MK GOD KAIS!!!

 

[Tyr_03]

That poll is a waste of time. They'll let any ****** cast a vote. Reading through posts on that thread makes me hate humanity.

 

[Overswarm]

what time is this shindig? 4 again?

 

[smash64]

yeah 3:30 or 4 is good

 

[nicalobe]

So I haven't been able to play smash competitively since early June and I want to start playing people other than my hometown friends who hate the game. Is there room for me?

 

[smash64]

So I haven't been able to play smash competitively since early June and I want to start playing people other than my hometown friends who hate the game. Is there room for me?

yeah u can come but what time will you come?

 

[Doctor X]

There will be room for another person after I leave. I'll be gone at like 4:30-5

 

[Y.b.M.]

Hello world...I'm a God Kai...and after watching this Vid....I am Convinced MK should be Banned....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDCG6NF10oU

 

[nicalobe]

How long is it going until? I just agreed to go to dinner with grandparents... I could leave my place at around 6:30 or 7:00 probably.

 

[Y.b.M.]

The Smash Fest Will be ending around 11:30 tonight....

 

[Kel]

Hello world...I'm a God Kai...and after watching this Vid....I am Convinced MK should be Banned....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDCG6NF10oU

Then you are dumb and have no ability to think with your own brain.

Tyr, the poll does count for something because the winning side gets votes in the SBR's poll

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah, that video is idiotic and has nothing to do with actually playing this game. Lucas can go under Battlefield 2 different ways. OMG BROKEN!!!! We should ban Lucas. It's sad how many people actually will make their decision based off that thing.

Yeah, I know the sbr is counting it in the vote for some reason. I don't know why you would take an online vote for anything seriously when it's so easy to commit voter fraud and when 90% of swf is a drooling moron.

 

[Overswarm]

90% of the SBR are drooling morons too, they just have purple names.

 

[Flawless Fan]

90% of the SBR are drooling morons too

I think that can be said about the human race in general :/

I do personally believe MK detracts a lot from Brawl, but he'll never get banned.

 

[jokey665]

Ban MK and Snake. >_>

 

[clowsui]

holy cripes this was awesome

next one's at my house probably

you guys gotta try and motivate me to get that paper done lol

notable things:
- everyone in the kitchen thought cate was mean...'cept me
- i kept losing to sai in friendlies : /
- my record vs. tako in friendlies is like...1-1, i lose on platforms, he loses on flat stages
- i beat kel...in a friendly
- i two stocked infern...in a friendly
- i lost to steel samurai 2-0 in a 1$ mm but strangely enough my sheik did better than my marth!?
- doubles is weird for me
- kassandra is not as bad as i thought
- tyr tried to plank me, i footstool dair'd him five times with marth, but he still beat me

 

[Flawless Fan]

I need to stop being lazy and actually go to one of these.

 

[Y.b.M.]

Then you are dumb and have no ability to think with your own brain.

Tyr, the poll does count for something because the winning side gets votes in the SBR's poll

No You.........TO each own...Looks Like people are going to have to stop relying on a broken character....And Play with Actual Skill hehehe...

 

[Kel]

Yeah, that broken character topped out at 7th place at morehead. It's atrocious!

 

[smash64]

Yeah, that broken character topped out at 7th place at morehead. It's atrocious!

lol so true

 

[Overswarm]

I want to go up to Springfield on FRIDAY.

Who's coming with me?

I'm staying the night Friday AND Saturday. I don't know if Tako is coming back saturday night.

I'd like to just drive the God Kais and Kel up on Friday is possible... but I dunno who's working and all that jazz.

People I know are coming based on posts I remember:

God Kais x3
Kel
MEEEEEEEEE!!! OVERSWARM!!
Tyr
Kassandra (Nova?)
Tako

 

[Doctor X]

Looks Like people are going to have to stop relying on a broken character....And Play with Actual Skill hehehe...

"Actual skill" is an arbitrary notion. By my definition there's little to nothing in Brawl that requires any actual skill. To be honest, properly placing an off-stage shuttle loop is one of the few things I can think of. Roll to grab? Not so much. But hey... that's just by my definition.

Again I challenge the God Kais-- specifically Y.b.M. this time-- to play Melee. See how far that **** gets you.

 

[TheKiest]

No You.........TO each own...Looks Like people are going to have to stop relying on a broken character....And Play with Actual Skill hehehe...

Or pick up Snake or learn to CG with ICs until those two get banned too. Then next will be Diddy.

"Actual skill" is an arbitrary notion. By my definition there's little to nothing in Brawl that requires any actual skill. To be honest, properly placing an off-stage shuttle loop is one of the few things I can think of. Roll to grab? Not so much. But hey... that's just by my definition.

I concur. Brawl takes little skill compared to other fighters.... to learn at least.

 

[Flawless Fan]

I think Brawl is one of the hardest fighting games to learn to play well. I recently got one of my friends into Smash, and she uses Kirby right now. After killing me a few times with Hammer she started to spam hammer all the time, even though I tell her not to spam it and if she is gonna use it, she should use Hammer in the air. I don't think she gets it.

The IC's chaingrab, Pikachu's many ATs, Sheik's infinite, etc, all would take practice.

Now, I've played other fighting games, particularly SF2 and Killer Instinct. They've got the important things to learn too like the special attacks or whatever they're called, but I think those are easier to learn. That raptor guy in Killer Instinct has that spitting attack thing, which was really, really easy to learn. Chun Li in SF has that spinning kick, which was also easy for me to learn. In Brawl, there are more characters, some with even more things to learn that I think are harder to get the hang of.


Brawl is easy to play, but to get really good and to do well in competitive play I think it takes more work. Maybe not more skill but more work and time too, I think.
I, however, haven't played either SF2 or Killer Instinct in years. On an actual system, at least. I have both on emulator but I use a keyboard for emulators >_> I may be completely wrong about Brawl needing more work/time.

 

[Overswarm]

Brawl is much harder than traditional fighters. Traditional fighters are all about muscle memory. Brawl is not.

Melee is about even with Brawl as far as difficulty goes. Melee combos are easy to do, and anyone that tells you otherwise is a liar, because all the combos used in actual gameplay were either set in stone and repeated ad infinitum or made up on the spot... and only the top players ever made anything up on the spot.

If you wanted to know which was harder to play perfectly, it'd definitely be Melee. But to play competitively? They're both about the same, they just take different skills... except in Melee you could get by most players by simply being a technical machine with a space animal, and in Brawl you can't really do that.

 

[Flawless Fan]

Traditional fighters are all about muscle memory.

Reminds me of that Cinder dude in Killer Instinct. Random button pressing got me to discovering a super easy way to get an Ultra combo. I pissed my brother off by beating him with his own favorite character. I even blindfolded myself.
Anyone who can win in Smash while blindfolded is probably somehow cheating.

 

[Overswarm]

Reminds me of that Cinder dude in Killer Instinct. Random button pressing got me to discovering a super easy way to get an Ultra combo. I pissed my brother off by beating him with his own favorite character. I even blindfolded myself.
Anyone who can win in Smash while blindfolded is probably somehow cheating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjXo5Sh8YKI

 

[Flawless Fan]

Totally doesn't count if you both can't see what you're doing.

 

[Doctor X]

Brawl is much harder than traditional fighters. Traditional fighters are all about muscle memory. Brawl is not.

This is a vast understatement of the dynamics of traditional fighters. Good ones (i.e. not Killer Instinct) contain all the spacing (players call it "zoning") and mindgame elements of the smash series. Go to SRK forums and post this, see what they say. I'm sure since they actually play these games they'll do a much better job explaining it to you.

Melee is about even with Brawl as far as difficulty goes. Melee combos are easy to do, and anyone that tells you otherwise is a liar, because all the combos used in actual gameplay were either set in stone and repeated ad infinitum or made up on the spot... and only the top players ever made anything up on the spot.

That's bull****. There is not one thing you can possibly do in Brawl that takes as much practice to pull of consistently as nair to thunder's combo into a perfect chaingrab to upsmash. It may be "set in stone" but that doesn't mean just anybody can do it on their first try. The same cannot be said of anything that's actually useful in Brawl.

The skill of playing melee does not lie entirely or even mostly in combos. You of all people should know this seeing as you never really played technical to begin with. Among the things Brawl lacks or horribly simplifies there is also tech-chasing, true shield pressure, crouch-cancel mixups, and especially edgeguarding and recovery games.

Melee takes more skill because you can be truly punished. If you make one wrong choice it can cost you large amounts of damage, if not an entire stock. It demands more consistency both in technical ability and decision-making capacity.

If you wanted to know which was harder to play perfectly, it'd definitely be Melee. But to play competitively? They're both about the same, they just take different skills... except in Melee you could get by most players by simply being a technical machine with a space animal, and in Brawl you can't really do that.

In Brawl you can get by "most players" by spamming spot-dodges. Take away Metaknight and you can probably get even further.

 

[Overswarm]

This is a vast understatement of the dynamics of traditional fighters. Good ones (i.e. not Killer Instinct) contain all the spacing (players call it "zoning") and mindgame elements of the smash series. Go to SRK forums and post this, see what they say. I'm sure since they actually play these games they'll do a much better job explaining it to you.

I play these games as well, and have placed top 3 in Street Fighter tournaments and have stayed the night with some of the world's best GG and SF2 players all in the same house, playing traditional fighters all night. I beat some people that had been playing Guilty Gear for years by picking up Eddie and Sol Bad Guy and copying all the combos they did. It's mostly muscle memory.

That's bull****. There is not one thing you can possibly do in Brawl that takes as much practice to pull of consistently as nair to thunder's combo into a perfect chaingrab to upsmash. It may be "set in stone" but that doesn't mean just anybody can do it on their first try. The same cannot be said of anything that's actually useful in Brawl.

The skill of playing melee does not lie entirely or even mostly in combos. You of all people should know this seeing as you never really played technical to begin with. Among the things Brawl lacks or horribly simplifies there is also tech-chasing, true shield pressure, crouch-cancel mixups, and especially edgeguarding and recovery games.

Melee takes more skill because you can be truly punished. If you make one wrong choice it can cost you large amounts of damage, if not an entire stock. It demands more consistency both in technical ability and decision-making capacity.

Melee: You make 1 mistake and you're dead.

Translation: You punish one mistake and you win.

Brawl: You make a dozen mistakes and you're dead.

Translation: You have to punish effectively at least a dozen mistakes to win the match, and you must do this consistently.


To put it in perspective for you:

People trained on level one computers in Melee to get better and saw impressive results by doing so.

People never train on computers at all in Brawl, because it is worthless save for learning technical things like IC chain grabs. You need a human opponent to practice, because it is a mental game with a million more variables.

The skill of playing melee does not lie entirely or even mostly in combos. You of all people should know this seeing as you never really played technical to begin with. Among the things Brawl lacks or horribly simplifies there is also tech-chasing, true shield pressure, crouch-cancel mixups, and especially edgeguarding and recovery games.

All of this is in Brawl.... and edgeguarding is no longer "I hit you with one move", but more "I hit you with several moves repeatedly, calling you every time and forcing you into bad positions where I can intercept".

In Brawl you can get by "most players" by spamming spot-dodges. Take away Metaknight and you can probably get even further.

This isn't true in the slightest, except the MK one. >_>



Melee's fun and all, and I really enjoy the game.... but it was a muscle memory game. The thing that made smash so amazing when I first started playing it was that there were no "set combos" and you had REALLY get good to learn to follow people's DI. Then I realized there WERE set combos, and I repeated those ad infinitum just like everyone else.

It takes more skill to play Roy effectively in Brawl than it does to play Marth.

Every character in Brawl is Roy.

 

[jokey665]

Every character in Brawl is Roy.

If only

 

[QUIVO]

IMO, Melee is harder

Combos:
Brawl: You mostly have to read/predict well to punish DI + airdodges/attacks.
Melee: You need just as much reading skill and reaction time plus good tech skill.

Punishing/Mindgames
Brawl: You don't punish as hard unless you're like, d3 and Falco where you have a stupid and easy as hell to do chaingrab. You have to punish more and keep consistent. Being defensive works a lot better in this game.
Melee: I feel like you had more to work with since you had much more freedom with movement in this game. Dash dance was both a defensive and aggressive tactic. Wavelands/Wavedashes for psyche outs or to help follow up. These things + other required proper use, otherwise they seemed useless.

Edgeguarding is probably about even.
Brawl: It's a lot easier to recover, especially since we have Auto Sweet spots. t's difficult to edgeguard.
Melee: You had to sweetspot all your recoveries, otherwise you'd get punished. Edgeguarding was also kinda fun.
Examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

The skill gaps seem to be about the same, but I think the rate of progress and transitions are more difficult in Melee.

We also can't forget that people that don't do well in Melee seem to do ok in Brawl. A good person in Melee can generally play Brawl fairly easily (with exceptions of some people) and hang. I.E. I heard Hax and Jman were actually really good in Brawl.. and they never play the game.

There's a lot more to add to this argument, but I'm bored of it already

 

[Xisin]

I can't possibly compare the two by playing them... as the only melee i ever played was hyrule temple FFA with items cranked to max or marth v roy duels i always had with my buddy from high school... good memories

But Brawl does take ability i cant see how you would argue otherwise. in the past 3-4 tournaments in kentucky where the same people attending (sometimes more attending.) the top 5 were always similar. I mean that in itself says that some people have more "skill" than others... if thats what you want to call it.

 

[QUIVO]

Brawl forsure takes skill, which is why Midwest's top 5 generally go ally, lain, judge/anther, other good person.

Brawl is still a tough game to do well in.

 

[AlphaZealot]

*At a hotel room in Genesis*

AlphaZealot walks out of the shower and sees a strange person on his bed. "You look familiar" says AlphaZealot.

"That's probably because you beat me in Melee with one hand back at MLG NY 06" says the strange person.

"Really...my bad..." replied a perplexed AlphaZealot.

"I'm Sky" said Sky.

---

The low/mid level players in Melee just rely on tech skill/combo's. The high level players could think. That is why I made like $10-20 a tournament by one-hand MMing midlevel players. LOL. Regardless, I went back and played some Melee this past week and while my tech skill isn't what it use to be, I think some of the stuff I do thinking-wise in Brawl carried over and I even came up with some new stuff for my Peach that I didn't use to do by copying my banana game in Brawl. That and I copied stuff from Armada (who wouldn't?).

Here is part of a $5 MM (IIRC):
<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3033005119519411737&hl=en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>

EDIT: also that recovery video is awesome. I'm either the commentator or was the non-voiced commentator on most of the vids with commentary "OH MY GODDDDD" - I still remember Kaiser's recovery.

 

[Y.b.M.]

"Actual skill" is an arbitrary notion. By my definition there's little to nothing in Brawl that requires any actual skill. To be honest, properly placing an off-stage shuttle loop is one of the few things I can think of. Roll to grab? Not so much. But hey... that's just by my definition.

Again I challenge the God Kais-- specifically Y.b.M. this time-- to play Melee. See how far that **** gets you.

Let's be honest. It takes skill to be effectively good in any competitive game. But We could use Tyr as a good example, possibly Xisin, Smash 64 and even Doctor X. All 4 of them are monsters with there Main Characters. But when they are in a clutch situation where they feel that they are absolutely going to lose...they Choose Metaknight. Why? because he has the upper hand in every match up/even in rare cases...But he's never at a disadvantage anytime...You can't CP against him effectively...Not only does he have an amazing variety of moves to recover from but he has almost no lag on majority of his moves. He's to reliable of a character for people to pass up...When all else fails, Spam like Hell. But if MK gets banned...Let's see where all the people who rely on MK end up placing at tournaments. It'll be amazing! I would love to have him banned for at least one year...Since the People who Are Pro ban has had to deal with him for so long just to cater to the Anti-Ban Side....

I pass on Melee.... I play with the Wii Remote And Nunchuk....It really throws off my Controls something serious..Besides I played Melee for like 6 years straight and Eventually got burned out on the Game. The Wii is currently more played than the Gamecube so get brawl and play The real Smashers.....Hehehe

 

[sneakytako]

Lol in AZ vid one downsmash takes roy from 14 to 76% at around 1:00.

 

[QUIVO]

Playing Brawl definitely stepped up my Melee game. I remember I went to a Melee tournament back in the fall and did ok. I was beating a lot of people in friendlies, and managed to take a game off swiftbass (who got 2nd at that tourny. He ***** me a few months later, but that was cause I hadn't practiced since then. It helped me with mindgames, and in general, think about things. I never realized how poorly I used to space things either.

What AZ says is true though. Low/Mid level players can get by with just tech skill (mostly spacies). That's exactly how I was. I don't know how, but I had close games with some really good players (mostly one tourny match, and few friendlies).

As for MK having no bad matchups and such.. according to the most recent matchup chart (Found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234220) for Melee, Falco has no bad matchups. He has 4 even matchups (Sheik, Marth, Sheik, and Peach), 13 **** matchups (70 to 95 in his advantage) and 7 mathcups where he has the advantage (ranging from 60-65 ratio).

Sheiks pretty close to Falco where she has one matchup where she has a slight disadvantage (to fox). IIRC, she chaingrabs most of the cast too. This is kinda similar to Mk vs Snake debate.

Fox is up there too with a slight disadvantage against Falco.

Sneakytako: He probably DI'ed down, which would be his fault..

AZ: So many epic/sweet things in that video.