Hi,
Kudos, ChiboSempai, for trying to help people out and for investing the time in writing that post. However, there are some inaccuracies in what you wrote. I'll go through and point them out - feel free to edit the changes in to your original post if you like. I'll include some of my own comments on the issue at the end.
-Every device like a screen that accepts input video sources and displays it has a single native resolution. A device can not have multiple native resolutions.
This is nitpicky, but actually isn't true. CRT screens can display a variety of resolutions. Most CRT TVs will only properly display 480i content, but CRT HDTVs and CRT computer monitors can all display a variety of resolutions without resorting to any sort of scaling at all.
Old TVs that don't even have component inputs are 480i. Early component capable TVs that don't support progressive scan are 480i. Any non-HD TV with component inputs that is progressive scan capable is 480p. All HD-TVs are either 720p or 1080p. 1080p is generally considered "Full-HD" and these native TV's have not been on the market for very long. There is no such thing as a TV with a 1080i native resolution. TVs that advertise 1080i resolution are either native with 480p or 720p
Mostly true, for North America. Note that PAL TVs' standard resolutions are different - a PAL TV has 525 lines of visible resolution that refresh at 50Hz, rather than 60Hz. PAL SDTVs are 525i, EDTVs are 525p.
More importantly, there are many, many HDTVs that are 1080i native resolution. Almost all CRT HDTVs, both front- and rear-projection, are 1080i native. Some plasma TVs are also 1080i native resolution. There are no LCD TVs that have an interlaced native resolution, however - all LCD TVs are 480p, 720p, or 1080p.
-If a TV's native resolution is 720p or 1080p, it is a HDTV. If a TV's native resolution is 480p, it is an EDTV. If the TV's native rez is 480i, it is an SDTV.
Right
-Devices that output video such as game consoles can run in different native resolutions. The 360 can run natively in 480i/480p/720p/1080p. Notice how I didn't mention 1080i even though it is an option in the menu. 1080i is essentially a fake resolution. It was a workaround to achieve an HD resolution on older TVs. 720p is better than 1080i. p essentially means twice the lines, so double 720 and you get 1440, which is more than 1080. When you play 1080i on a 360 you are either upscaling 480p or downscaling 720p.
Sorry, but this is completely wrong. 1080i is not a "fake" resolution, and 720p is definitely not higher resolution than 1080i. People get very confused when talking about interlaced resolutions, confusing frames and fields.
This needs a bit of a primer on how interlaced and progressive scan TVs work.
CRT TVs work by "painting" the screen with an electron gun. The gun moves from the top of the screen to the bottom, left to right, firing electrons at the phosphors in your television to make them light. An NTSC CRT TV refreshes (paints the screen) 60 times in a second (60Hz). An interlaced TV works by drawing all the even lines on a screen (240 lines), then drawing all the odd lines (another 240 lines). Each field has 240 lines, but the actual frame of the image still has 480 lines - NTSC broadcasts run at 29.98fps, divided into two fields to work with 60Hz interlaced TVs. A progressive scan TV will take those two interlaced fields and 'deinterlace' them to make a single image with 480 lines - a progressive scan image. Progressive scan CRT TVs can draw every line in every pass, but don't have to. A fixed pixel display like an LCD TV does not refresh like a conventional CRT TV - there's no gun painting pixels, the pixels are there and on all the time, so the image must be a "progressive" image - LCD TVs can't display interlaced signals (if you force an LCD to display one you actually see two images side by side).
Anyway, back to the topic at hand - 1080i is a 1920x1080 resolution image at 30fps. Each of those frames is divided into two fields - 540 odd lines and 540 even lines - which are displayed at 60Hz. You're still seeing a 1920x1080 image, and if you're using a 1080p LCD TV with a good deinterlacer, you're going to see pretty much the exact same picture as you would see if you were looking at a 1080p source. I've never run into a situation where a 1080i/p TV looked better with a 720p signal than with a 1080i signal, as long as the original source was at least 1080i.
-Just about any device can downscale resolutions. This is why new consoles can still run in 480i when they are all atleast natively 480p. However, few devices can upconvert. The 360 for instance can upconvert with it's hardware acceleration chip. This is a processor in the 360 devoted solely to upconversion and the end result is approximately no lag (1ms TOPS). This is why on my EDTV that is native in 480p but can run 1080i, the 360 can use 1080i. The PS3 however can not upconvert as it has no hardware acceleration processor meant for the task. If the PS3 was to run in 1080i, it has to be on a 720p capable TV. If I run a PS3 on my EDTV, it can only run in 480p and not 1080i like my 360. That sure is a waste of a HD system!
This doesn't make any sense - I tried writing a response three times and couldn't figure out what you're trying to say here, so I'll just talk about how video game consoles work and what the scaler in these devices actually does.
And XBox 360 or PS3 can each render games at whatever resolution you set the console to. You should ALWAYS set your console to match the resolution of your TV. It doesn't make sense to set your 360 to output a 1080i signal and then have your TV scale it down - this can introduce lag, and will definitely introduce image artifacts. The PS3 and the XBox 360 have very similar graphics hardware to what you'd find in a computer - like a computer, they can render graphics at whatever resolution they're told, provided they have enough video memory. The hardware scaler in the XBox 360 is there for content that is a fixed resolution - cut scenes, DVDs, menus, HD-DVDs, and the like. The PS3 doesn't have this, which caused a bit of a problem when it was first released because it had trouble playing bluray movies at certain resolutions (can't quite recall which ones). That was rectified with a software patch - the PS3 does its scaling in software, but that doesn't cause any performance issues because of the way the Cell processor works. It's easy to dedicate one of the 7 SPEs to scaling video; its pretty much what it was designed for.
The Wii can only output in 480i or 480p. If you can set it to 480p, set it to 480p. More on this later.
-Down converting a signal produces approximately no lag. It's a negligible amount like upconverting on the 360.
This isn't true. Rescaling video, up or down, will cause lag. Whether the lag is appreciable depends on two factors - how many times it's being scaled, and how fast the scalers doing the work are.
-interlaced and progressive do not affect lag in down converting. It matters in upconverting from i to p but not p to i.
Again, scaling video always causes lag. If you have a 480p set, you're likely not going to notice the difference between downconverting a 720p signal or a 1080i signal or a 1080p signal - the difference will be in the area of fractions of miliseconds.
Don't confuse upconversion with deinterlacing - deinterlacing isn't upconversion. Deinterlacing can introduce appreciable lag - upconversion generally doesn't, if the scaler is good.
Wii Specific Information:
-The Wii's native resolution is 480p.
-The Wii can play on SDTVs with no lag due to a 480p>480i conversion.
This isn't true. The Wii can output both 480i and 480p "natively". There is no scaling going on. This is similar to the way your computer can output a variety of resolutions.
-A TV with a native resolution higher than 480p (either 720p or 1080p) have to upconvert the Wii's native resolution of 480p. TVs do not have hardware acceleration processors like the 360, and THIS is the source of all noticeable lag.
Yes, all HD LCD and Plasma TVs will have to upconvert a 480p signal. HOWEVER!
All TVs have hardware scalers. They wouldn't be able to scale video otherwise. A TV doesn't have a general-purpose CPU like the PS3 does - there's no chip in a TV that would scale video if not for a hardware scaler (I have a projector in my basement that proudly proclaims "Faroujda Scaler" on the chassis).
Also, this is not the source of most noticable lag.
The most noticable lag on LCD and Plasma TVs comes from deinterlacing a signal. Even the best deinterlacer will be 1/2 frame behind the game you're playing, because the deinterlacer has to wait for the at second field (the other half of the frame) before it can create a progressive image. Good deinterlacers generally will work on at least 3 fields at once. If the image you're seeing is 3 fields (1.5 frames) behind the image being generated by the console, this is at least 5ms of lag. 5ms of lag is completely unnoticable when you're watching TV or a movie, but when you're playing a game like Smash Bros or Guitar Hero where you're timing button presses down to a fraction of a second, it makes a significant difference.
Scaing the image can also introduce lag; however, most new LCD and plasma TVs have very good scalers that can scale the image in a millisecond or less. Some older LCD TVs have poor or slow scalers that will introduce some lag, but most LCD TVs will have no appreciable lag if they're receiving a progressive image, regardless of the resolution.
-When you use composite cables on your Wii, your forcing your Wii to downgrade the signal first to 480i since 480p can not be carried over a composite cable.
No, if you set your wii to 480i, it is generating images internally at 480i. No scaling is going on.
-When using composite cables with say a 1080p TV, its converting from 480i > 1080p. Remember when I said i > p conversion makes more lag? This is the prime example. Using composite cables on a HDTV suck. Theres not only resolution upconvert lag, but also i>p conversion lag. When using Wii component cables your converting 480p to 1080p, which while still rough, is a lot better than 480i > 1080p. This way your not worrying about changing the lines of video displayed, and just dealing with resolution instead.
This is misworded - see above.
-Wired 1st party cube controllers have no lag. 3rd party ones shouldn't, but its possible they are made terribly.
-Wireless controllers if made well will have negligible lag, such as a wavebird controller or wii remotes. Nearly any 3rd party controller (except BIG name ones like logitech) will lag. Don't get 3rd party gamestop controller. yuk.
True.
-Smash is a unpredictable game, so no lag fix can be made. Guitar Hero is a predictable game, as all notes are layed out, so it can essentially play the game before you see it.
-New TVs are being made with Game modes such as some of the Sharp Aquos TV's. These do help with lag. The reason? Because they are equipped with better processors to handle the upconversion to do it faster. Are they perfect right now? It's possible they are near perfect if using a component cable and the game mode is enabled. I have yet to use one of these TVs, but I have heard good things. I've heard that you can walk into best buy with a gamecube and stuff and hook it up to one of their display TVs if you want to test out the lag before you buy it. afterall, they want your business, so its a chance for them to sell you a tv. try it, dont be dissapointed after you buy it. The bad part of these new "lag-free" TVs, they are freicken expensive. The 42" Sharp AQUOS for gaming is about $1500. Other 42" HDTVs? Under a grand and as low as $600 on special deals like Black Friday.
Game mode TVs are nothing but a marketing gimick. I sell the Aquos line of TVs and I can tell you that a properly set up D43. D62, D64, D82, or any other current Sharp will have no appreciable difference in lag compared to the GP1. However, the GP1 is a very good set - its also generally only slightly more expensive than the equivalent non-gaming 1080p set and it has an extra set of inputs on the side, so its still worth looking at. As I said before, most modern, name-brand LCDs have fast enough scalers that you should not notice lag from a progressive signal.
-Once TVs get stronger and stronger processors for upconverting once the price isnt as bad for manufacturing costs, we can have lag free HDTVs.
HDTVs will never be lag free. Most are already free of appreciable lag. They can't get a lot better than that.
-I touched on it briefly earlier that component cables only matter in lag when upconverting to a HDTV. If you have an EDTV, or even a component capable SDTV, using component cables does not reduce lag as it's already unnoticeable. Component cables mainly just make the game look like its running 60fps, as when its running interlaced, you only see 30 lines every frame, however you are not missing information since the video is still updated every frame.
This isn't true. If you have an EDTV (480p TV) you absolutely must get component cables or you will likely experience lag. If you have an SDTV with component connections, you'll get a sharper picture and better colour with component cables, so I still recommend it, but there'll be no difference in lag (there shouldn't be any to begin with).
The Projection/CRT/LCD/Plasma debate:
-Projection TVs, or projectors: These lag a lot. Why? It's not just broadcasting the image to a screen internally, but sending it across an empty area. Also, these aren't reccomended for great gaming experiences as it's very hard to get good color on them and it normally appears to be washed out.
Completely untrue. You do realize that projection TVs are "sending it across an empty area" at the speed of light, right? (sorry, don't mean to sound like an *******, but !) It takes hundreds, maybe thousands of times longer for the nerves in your eye to transmit what they're seeing to your brain than it does for light to cross the 1-2 foot space inside your television (and if this is really a concern, sit a foot closer to your TV to compensate. Problem solved!).
A good projection TV will usually have LESS lag than an LCD TV. Rear Projection sets are often CRT or DLP, which are less susceptible to lag than LCD TVs, or they're LCD TVs with a true 1280x720 resolution instead of the 1366x768 resolution of flatpanel displays. Every signal sent to a 720p flatpanel has to be scaled, a 720p LCD rear projector (or front projector) does not have to scale a 720p image.
As for picture quality of a rear projection set, depends on the set. Sony's top of the line XSRD LCD Rear Projection set looks better than any LCD flatpanel they make. I've also seen horrible rear projection sets. They're not any different than any other kind of TV in this regard (though you can usually get similar picture quality to a flatpanel for about half the price in a rear projection).
-CRT: CRT TV's have no additional lag, and no ghosting. They have the best color of any TV but are also the biggest and heaviest.
True. They have other image quality issues though, so I really wouldn't recommend a CRT these days given the price and quality of LCD and Plasma sets.
-LCD and Plasma. These kinds of TVs have been around for a while and they used to lag a lot. If you've gotten one of these TVs anytime recently, lag is not an issue due to screen type. A 480p native LCD screen should perform the same as a 480p native CRT. (I don't think they make native 480p Plasmas).
They do make 480p plasmas, but that's just an interesting aside.
What people mistake for lag on these two types of TVs are ghosting. Ghosting is essentially seeing what used to be on the screen.
This is actually lag (most correctly - latency); ghosting is just a common term for it. Its a different kind of lag than we've been talking about, though, so this is just me being anal.
Say you're Captain Falcon on FD and you run across the stage with a bunny hood. You're moving really fast and the refresh rate of the LCD or Plasma can't keep up with him (lol).
Plasmas do not refresh in the same way as LCDs, and do not suffer from latency. What you're talking about here is the response time of the pixels in the set lagging behind the changing image - the pixels can't change their colour fast enough to keep up with Captain Falcon.
It will almost look like a trail of Falcons is running behind him, kind of like in old cartoons when Sonic would run around.
Dear god I hope it doesn't look like this. If it does, you've got one hell of a bad TV! No new LCDs will look like this.
This is all thanks to response time, which barely has an effect on lag, and is more for ghosting. Plasmas are notorious for having terrible ghosting (believe me, it's bad) but recent LCDs have just about gotten rid of the ghosting problem. Why do people like Plasma TVs then? They're as thin as LCDs and around the same price, but have extremely superior color quality and contrast.
Plasmas don't do this - I don't know what you've been looking at. Plasmas have trouble with gradients, burn-in, and noise. They don't have trouble with ghosting, streaking, lag, response time, black levels, or any other LCD-specific problems.
So You're Buying a New TV?
-You want a lag free experience? Ok buy one of these TVs:
a. SDTV. Your game will look like crap, but it won't lag at all. The screens are normally a little smaller and are common around the 19-27 range. They are getting harder to find.
b. EDTV. These are actually some of the hardest TVs to find nowadays and were common when HD was first starting. EDTVs can normally display 1080i when the 480p signal was upconverted from the source. This will play Wii with amazing picture quality and 0 lag. This will play 360 in an HD rez, but not in progressive scan. This TV is a waste though if you're looking for a full PS3 experience.
c. HDTV. If you want no lag, you have to buy a HDTV that is made for gaming. Make sure it has a gaming mode that is advertised to be lag free. There is no 100% guarantee yet that there isn't any lag, but from what I've heard they do pretty good. Any HDTV that isn't optimized for gaming will run LAGGY.
SDTVs or EDTVs will be closest to lag-free with a Wii. If you have an EDTV, for the love of god, DON'T SET IT TO 1080i! You're making your equipment work harder for at best no gain in picture quality, and at worse, degraded picture quality and in the case of a ****ty scaler, increased lag.
Ignore advertising BS about lag. The only major name-brand LCD that I've run into that has any serious issues with response time or lag are Sony XBR4s. They're embarrassingly bad.
What do I own?
I said it once in there that I have a CRT EDTV. It's 480p native 27" fullscreen TV that can display 1080i. My 360 looks nice in 1080i, and I haven't used a PS3 on my TV, but if I did it would be in 480p, essentially turning the big name HD console into a SD console. My Wii and Cube have component cables and run in progressive scan whenever possible. The picture is freicken amazing and there is absolutely no lag. I didn't even mean to get this TV for smash. I got it about 4 years ago when HDTVs were pretty much brand new. It was advertised as an HDTV even though it's an EDTV. I'm looking to upgrade to a gaming optimized HDTV, but I need a lot more cash.
EDIT:
Extra Notes (in case I forgot to touch on a certain subject earlier)
-Not all EDTVs are 1080i compatible like mine I was talking about. However if you're just buying one now, chances are that it is compatible considering mine is and its like 3-4 years old.
I would really recommend if it is indeed a 480p set and not a 1080i set (what's the model?) that you set your XBox to 480p, for reasons listed above.
Some extra notes for people who have LCD TVs or are looking to buy LCD TVs, and want to reduce lag:
A lot of new LCD TV models advertise 120Hz Processing. If you're playing games, TURN THIS OFF. If you have a high end Sony TV that advertises "Motion Flow", TURN IT OFF. This can smooth out your video and reduce issues with response time, but it will introduce lag into your games. Turn off all video processing (noise reduction, colour enhancement, everything) when you're playing games - the more processing the set is doing to the image, the more likely it will introduce lag into your game. As I've said several times, any current LCD set up properly should not lag in any appreciable way.
What do I have? I have a Panasonic PTAE900 720p Front Projector. I'm an avid Smash Brothers and Guitar Hero player (probably the two games most sensitive to lag). Both games will lag on my set if they're running at 480i. Both games are lag-free at 480p.
Kudos again to ChiboSempai for writing the original post - I hope this clears up any additional questions people might have had and clarifies a few of the mistakes in the original post. Thanks!
-Goon
