The End of All Smash Brawl HDTV Lag Debates

[Corporate Goon]

Thank you Chibo for taking the time to try to help us all understanding these things. Another big thanks for scaring the crap out of me and making me conscious of possible lag issues with my new HDTV (37" 720p LCD HDTV with component cable connection to my Wii) which I JUST bought for gaming (PC games and Smash).

Thank you Corporate Goon for the clarification. I wasn't exactly about to pawn my LCD HDTV off for an EDTV, but I was starting to get pretty darned worried until you showed up.

Speaking of cheap no-name TV's, what do you think of brands like Magnavox (NOT Phillips, just Magnavox) or Insignia (NOT LG, just Insignia) where the same parts are used but it's not by the same company? Do you usually notice a degradation of quality (picture quality or otherwise) when going from a Phillips brand LCD HDTV to a Magnavox brand?

I've never used a Magnavox but I've never been terribly impressed with Philips TVs. The only Insignia TV I've seen I was really impressed with, though. Sonork is buying one and he's a friend, so I can give more feedback when I've used it more.

 

[Novus]

what TVs do they use for demos?

 

[Corporate Goon]

Does who use?

 

[No-Really-I-Suck]

Simple question

If I were to go to the store today and buy a new 32'' HD TV, hook it up with component cables and play Brawl...

How much lag, if any, would I experience??????

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Hasn't it been made clear that lag varies by model, even if you are using the same source (480p) and the HDTVs are all the same native resolution? There is no way to know other than to see it for yourself, or by looking at a database of sorts that keeps information like this handy.

 

[gnuf]

-Basic information:

-Every device like a screen that accepts input video sources and displays it has a single native resolution. A device can not have multiple native resolutions. Old TVs that don't even have component inputs are 480i. Early component capable TVs that don't support progressive scan are 480i. Any non-HD TV with component inputs that is progressive scan capable is 480p. All HD-TVs are either 720p or 1080p. 1080p is generally considered "Full-HD" and these native TV's have not been on the market for very long. There is no such thing as a TV with a 1080i native resolution. TVs that advertise 1080i resolution are either native with 480p or 720p

-If a TV's native resolution is 720p or 1080p, it is a HDTV. If a TV's native resolution is 480p, it is an EDTV. If the TV's native rez is 480i, it is an SDTV.

-Devices that output video such as game consoles can run in different native resolutions. The 360 can run natively in 480i/480p/720p/1080p. Notice how I didn't mention 1080i even though it is an option in the menu. 1080i is essentially a fake resolution. It was a workaround to achieve an HD resolution on older TVs. 720p is better than 1080i. p essentially means twice the lines, so double 720 and you get 1440, which is more than 1080. When you play 1080i on a 360 you are either upscaling 480p or downscaling 720p.

-Just about any device can downscale resolutions. This is why new consoles can still run in 480i when they are all atleast natively 480p. However, few devices can upconvert. The 360 for instance can upconvert with it's hardware acceleration chip. This is a processor in the 360 devoted solely to upconversion and the end result is approximately no lag (1ms TOPS). This is why on my EDTV that is native in 480p but can run 1080i, the 360 can use 1080i. The PS3 however can not upconvert as it has no hardware acceleration processor meant for the task. If the PS3 was to run in 1080i, it has to be on a 720p capable TV. If I run a PS3 on my EDTV, it can only run in 480p and not 1080i like my 360. That sure is a waste of a HD system!

By reading the first few lines, this guys doesnt know what he's talking about. i didnt bother reading past the 2nd paragraph. by reading this it made everyone here dumber.



IDIOTS P MEANS PROGRESSIVE. MEANING IT DISPLAYS ALL 720 LINES. AS FOR 720i, IT MEANS INTERLACE. MEANING IT DISPLAYS HALF OF THE 720 LINES ON EVERY OTHER LINE AND BLENDS IT IN WITH THE REST. EXAMPLE, HALF OF 720 IS 360 LINES. IT displays 360 LINES AND BLENDS IT IN WITH THE REST OF THE 360 LINES.

1080i fake resolution? ROFL this guy is a real idiot. 1080i has a better resolution than 720p in stationary shots. it shows greater details. In the USA, 720p is used by ABC, Fox Broadcasting Company and ESPN because the smoother image is desirable for fast-action sports telecasts, whereas 1080i is used by CBS, NBC, HBO, Showtime and Discovery HD due to the crisper picture particularly in non-moving shots

i dont know where he got his information. double 720 is 1440. ROFL that was funny. i think we should disregard this topic because if he started out with a false statement, the rest is also false. something so commonly known and he doesnt know. tsk tsk.

 

[Corporate Goon]

If you'd read the thread you'd see that everything you pointed out was already addressed much more tactfully on the previous pages.

 

[Losnar]

Corp Goon's mega post should be added to first post.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Lag differs between tvs, buddy.
Nintendo doesn't exactly use the most top-quality TVs in their Brawl demos, and they seem to work just fine.

Me? I'm saving up for a Panasonic plasma. Doubt I should notice any lag. Even if I do, I got an SD TV handy.

 

[Jimiisama]

I don't know if someone else mentioned it but there ARE television with NATIVE 1080i resolution. Remember that not all HDTV's are LCD's; there are HD tubes, and there are HD tubes with native 1080i (usually these TV's also support 720p).

Anyway, the lag most people experience with LCD's have to do with interlacing. Honestly LCD's aren't necessarily better than CRT's; they have the benefit of being smaller, lighter, and cooler (not as hot) as CRT's, but interlaced video feeds tend to look terrible on LCD's. How bad interlacing looks on your LCD highly depends on your LCD; good LCD brands (Samsung, Sony, Westinghouse, Viewsonic[cheap but good for the price]) can do 480i with minimal lag, but cheap TV's (like Walmart-only brands) might not be able to handle interlacing as well. Most tourneys will probably still use CRT's considering the price and how much easier it would be to buy/borrow a large number of CRT's.

Back to the original topic, if you have an LCD, make sure you use COMPONENT (not composite!) video cables and turn on PROGRESSIVE SCAN. This might seem obvious to a lot of you, but you don't know how it pains me to go to someone's house and see a nice TV that's poorly set up.

Also, you mentioned something about the Wii itself lagging? I'm pretty sure the Wii renders the same rate no matter what (interlacing, progresive). Any lag you're experiencing comes from your TV (remember projectors also have lag problems, not just LCD's). If the Wii "lags" at all, it's usually just a low framerate (which is different from lag) which you may notice happens on the GC when you play FoD with 4 players (not sure what stages in Brawl may cause low framerates, but I'm sure there are some). I'm pretty sure it's not "harder" for your Wii to output 480i than 480p.

And seriously? Projectors lag because they broadcast through an empty space? Unless the speed of light is too slow for you, I don't see how this is a problem. Projectors can lag because they have low refresh rates; most people's home theatre projectors are LCD projectors (back to the LCD lag issue).

This all may have been said before; I guess this is the problem with answering to a thread that already has a couple pages of responses.

 

[Losnar]

How bad will 480p stretched to 1080p look?

 

[Corporate Goon]

How bad will 480p stretched to 1080p look?

depends on the scaler in your TV

In most cases, its fine.

 

[CT Chia]

it wont look bad but it will probably be a lil laggy...

 

[Corporate Goon]

NO!

Read the reply to your original post on Page 5.

 

[Losnar]

Well as long as it's not >15 ms of lag I should be alright. Brawl isn't quite as quick as melee anyway

 

[whiteman007]

If my t.v runs melee with no lag should brawl be the same?

 

[Jimiisama]

If my t.v runs melee with no lag should brawl be the same?

It should be; as long as you're using the same inputs and the same settings.

 

[CT Chia]

yea in terms of lag melee = brawl

 

[Doomgaze]

Yea if the lag is less than 16ms (which is aprox one frame) it doesn't matter at all because the commands you input withyour controller is inserted into the game on the "next" frame. So whatever you press in frame1 wont be shown until frame2 anyway.

Also it depends on the actual TV. Some scalers are good, others are crap.. Your best bet is to go down to the store and ask nicely if you can try some of their TVs. That's what I did and I can hardly feel any lag at all.

 

[Jimiisama]

Your best bet is to go down to the store and ask nicely if you can try some of their TVs. That's what I did and I can hardly feel any lag at all.

Very good advice; remember to test a TV before you buy it. Bring in your own feed to test on the TV. They might not want to at first, but in the end, they'll let you if they think it's gonna give them a sale.

 

[mista_mista]

I'm confused with all of this but I think my TVs are fine. My smaller one is just a standard older tv with no noticeable lag. The other one which I don't get to use as much is a 53" sony. I think it's a CRT, but on the back of it, it says "color rear video projector" so maybe it's a projection tv? either way, i haven't noticed any lag

 

[Losnar]

I think it's a CRT

If it's a CRT it probably weighs 4 times more than you.

 

[Jimiisama]

If it's a CRT it probably weighs 4 times more than you.

If it's a 53in CRT it's probably a rear projection TV; not your traditional tube TV.

 

[Lingy]

My TV lags with Melee, but I'm pretty sure Brawl won't lag because I'm going to buy a component cable for the wii.

 

[Corporate Goon]

Yea if the lag is less than 16ms (which is aprox one frame) it doesn't matter at all because the commands you input withyour controller is inserted into the game on the "next" frame. So whatever you press in frame1 wont be shown until frame2 anyway.

Also it depends on the actual TV. Some scalers are good, others are crap.. Your best bet is to go down to the store and ask nicely if you can try some of their TVs. That's what I did and I can hardly feel any lag at all.

Response time and lag are not the same thing. Lag is caused, generally, by the video processor in the television. A TV with a poor response time will not necessarily lag, it will streak and blur.

 

[0RLY]

Agreed. This is a very important thread. People who haven't read this before need to read this.

 

[Doomgaze]

Response time and lag are not the same thing. Lag is caused, generally, by the video processor in the television. A TV with a poor response time will not necessarily lag, it will streak and blur.

Um..
I didn't say that input lag and response time are the same thing.

 

[smashbro29]

what's the rez and will it have lag with a wii with componenet cables?shop4.outpost.com/%7BmQSovhsu0Q40wxxDkPvJqw**.node3%7D/product/5175456#detailed

 

[i8waffles612]

what's the rez and will it have lag with a wii with componenet cables?shop4.outpost.com/%7BmQSovhsu0Q40wxxDkPvJqw**.node3%7D/product/5175456#detailed

Hmm I really don't know...

Anyone else take a shot at this? I would like to know too..

 

[Novus]

To clarify on my question, I meant Nintendo. What sets do Nintendo use to show off Brawl?

 

[whiteman007]

When I got my new T.V. and hooked up my wii there was lag when i moved my wii pointer also the GFX's were not is good as on a non hd T.V. so i went out and bought the wii componenet cables and they fixed all my problems.

 

[Mechageo]

Maybe you could edit the first post to be more 'newbie friendly' by defining HDTV, EDTV, SDTV.

High Definition Television
Enhanced Definition Television
Standard Definition Television

Otherwise, great topic!

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

I have brawl with an Samsung 23 inch widescreen HD tv, I have no input lag or ghosting what so ever. It does have a game mode so I guess that could be why though.

 

[Rohins]

Great guide, I'll be looking over this when I purchase my new TV.

 

[Wight]

My yamaha HD Projector TV gives around 90~150ms lag on games. Which on games like guitar hero can be fixed, but everything else its a real pain in the ***. And thats on my ps3. Will be considerably worse when i get a wii for brawl i would think.

 

[Wight]

The Projection/CRT/LCD/Plasma debate:

-Projection TVs, or projectors: These lag a lot. Why? It's not just broadcasting the image to a screen internally, but sending it across an empty area.

but sending it across an empty area.

I understood that you are saying that it lags also because the projector has to display the image over an empty area.. Erm, if i understood that correctly you might want to go look up the speed of light.

In a room of 5m across it takes 5m/300,000,0000ms^-1 = 0.00000002s for light to cross to the other side. which in terms of ms, the typical lag time unit, is 0.0002ms, which is quite insignificant.

 

[Hellbeing]

SSSSSSSStickyikcystickty dis u moderatooors!!!

 

[TheShredder]

Sorry to ask this, but what about the Sony BRAVIAs? I have an EDTV in my dorm room, so no worries there, but the first week I have Brawl I'll be at home with a 42'' BRAVIA. Anyone know how those fare for Smash? I've never noticed any lag in anything other than Guitar Hero, but it lags pretty bad without calibration so I'm concerned. Still, Metroid Prime 3 seems to run fine.

 

[S2026]

I hate to redundant but... I was going to purchase a brand new TV in anticipation for smash bros. I WAS going to go with: http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Pana...76851/catOid/-12867/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

8ms is fine is it not? I don't wanna buy the TV to find out my Wii has some sort of lag. Anyone with any experience or knowledge of how the tv is with video games.

 

[Bajef8]

i got a brand-new 42" sharp aquos and there was lag on the wii for all the speedy games like guitar hero and melee. but then i went out and bought the component cables for the wii and they fixed everything. your best bet is to just buy the component cables if you get lag on your new HD set.