The Death of Competitive Gaming -- The Average Gamer?

[pockyD]

who the **** cares? that was like 6 years ago

may as well try to dredge up people arguing about mario 2 vs mario 3

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

is there a single instance where you CAN L-cancel where it would be advantageous to not do so? no... it's just there to force you to press buttons

I 100% disargee. there is a case i've heard about from the pikachu players. If you do a bair and and don't L-cancel against a marth's sheild he will try to grab **** you like everyone however during the extra lag pikachu is to low for marth to grab.

Plus there are anti L-cancel tactics to make it harder. like double light sheild, being on brinstar and etc.

 

[Roneblaster]

im not trying to restart the argument pocky, i jsut want to read it.

 

[pockyD]

I 100% disargee. there is a case i've heard about from the pikachu players. If you do a bair and and don't L-cancel against a marth's sheild he will try to grab **** you like everyone however during the extra lag pikachu is to low for marth to grab.

is pikachu at an advantage after this? i have never seen a pikachu approach a shield with bair, much less intentionally miss an l cancel afterwards, leading into a punish

Plus there are anti L-cancel tactics to make it harder. like double light sheild, being on brinstar and etc.

WEARING GLOVES

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

how does that help vs a double light sheild? Also if you press L. my source was from n64 for the bair thing

 

[pockyD]

how does that help vs a double light sheild?

hahahahaha

 

[Merkuri]

I really dislike this argument. You're making a terrible assumption that since Brawl is less technical and slower paced, it automatically makes up for it by becoming more strategic in the area of landing hits and controlling the match.

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

 

[n1000]

Plus there are anti L-cancel tactics to make it harder. like double light sheild, being on brinstar and etc.

That's a good point which I hadn't thought about. Thanks for noting that.

Reneblade: I think the reorganized the site a few times and forums got purged/changed I don't know. The argument pretty much boiled over back then, it didn't quite have the persistence of brawl vs melee. (I can't find any )




Merkuri said, "Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything."

Let's all point and laugh.

 

[Merkuri]

That's a good point which I hadn't thought about. Thanks for noting that.

Reneblade: I think the reorganized the site a few times and forums got purged/changed I don't know. The argument pretty much boiled over back then, it didn't quite have the persistence of brawl vs melee. (I can't find any )




Merkuri said, "Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything."

Let's all point and laugh.

I don't mean to flame, but I really think you're the one being dumb here. What I said holds true, he just dairs, l-cancel and shine. I suppose I didn't clear it enough but what I said was a generalization, which applies more to shield pressuring and combing than attacking in general.

 

[n1000]

Ah see that's completely different from the claim that Mango doesn't think when he attacks. You're still wrong though =[

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

of course

the primary culprit of my example is L-canceling

is there a single instance where you CAN L-cancel where it would be advantageous to not do so? no... it's just there to force you to press buttons

this is different from teching (when not teching is a very commonly used option) or wavelanding (where you often just land regularly since it's less laggy) in that good play involves it being used 100% of the time when you can

barlw got it right in getting rid of l-cancels; it's just too bad they both maintained landing lag (not a huge deal) and added the stupid action window a set number of frames after getting hit (THE biggest problem)

Even though it's always advantageous to do so doesn't mean it's always possible. And especially because it's harder to do in some situations, it becomes a mindgame / setup in itself. Like if I see a Fox player sh nair me, I'll dash out -> sh out of the way and they'll about 75% miss the L cancel because they timed an L cancel assuming they'd hit me. They missed the L cancel because they misread the spacing, not because their fingers are too slow. And so I'll then punish with a dair shine -> combo. That knowledge alone has actually won me many games and I can refer to many videos on that LOL.

Point is, if there were no L cancels and everything canceled automatically, there's nothing stopping players from being all out aggressive, all the time. It makes sure that players actually have some commitment to their attack and they better know what they / their opponent is doing, otherwise they'll get punished.

I don't mean to flame, but I really think you're the one being dumb here. What I said holds true, he just dairs, l-cancel and shine. I suppose I didn't clear it enough but what I said was a generalization, which applies more to shield pressuring and combing than attacking in general.

mmm what do you know about shield pressuring / comboing? Basically, messing up shield pressure means you get punished, hard, especially because it's Melee, and especially because it's Falco. You make it sound like shield pressure is unbeatable but if it really was, why don't you see technical spacies lock down their opponent every match with just dair, l cancel, shine? There are falling speed / aerial timing / landing mixups, hitstun / punish differences, etc etc that really make a noticeable difference and that he takes into account and knows better than everyone else. Please don't over simplify Mango's pressure when you clearly don't know anything about it, and when I've spent so much time / thought trying to beat / mimic it and still fail at both >_>

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Thanks zhu for useing the wisedom that socrates used to try to get people to ask about things and question others, yourself, and anything you can think of.

Never be on a side but the right side which isn't always yourself.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Thanks zhu for useing the wisedom that socrates used to try to get people to ask about things and question others, yourself, and anything you can think of.

Never be on a side but the right side which isn't always yourself.

Are you... making fun of me? LOL

 

[Charlesz]

don't even dare to turn this into a brawl vs melee thread. I swear to god...

Too late, it has begun.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

NO, why would I be mean? I don't have a reason to mr. Zhu.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

Please don't try to talk about things you don't understand.

 

[n1000]

Are you... making fun of me? LOL

Rereading that post as an ironic dis was the funniest part of my day.

 

[products]

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

yeah mango is dum the only reason why he's the best cus he has da best handz LOL

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Rereading that post as an ironic dis was the funniest part of my day.

Well either way, that whole thing was just a Falco perspective I guess. It really did take me a long time to learn L canceling, and I really think it does add a lot of depth into the game, so yeah LOL.

 

[Charlesz]

You guys are forgetting about mitchell tang.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Wait did he just post that Merkuri?

brawl is slower therefore you have more time too time about camping. I play I pichu who is more demanding mentally than MK in brawl. If you mindlessly do anything in melee you'll die everything can totally be beaten. Nothing is broken(in the rules which we play by). Melee you have less time make match changeing desions and reads.

Back to me and pichu he has combo and by no means are the auto the only one with auto combos is sheik and fox's shine to attack nearly no one esle has one of these auto combos you speak of not even falco you just can't di very good. But as pichu if you don't use mindgames, spacing, and reading. I read them very carefully and use many up-B mindgames. Mindgames are the most deadly tactic in melee that or chain throws LOL.

 

[Lovage]

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

this is one of the worst arguments i've ever read about melee

 

[Atlus8]

LMAO! That's just as bad as AlphaZealot's first blog on Aib!

 

[Oracle]

I don't mean to flame, but I really think you're the one being dumb here. What I said holds true, he just dairs, l-cancel and shine. I suppose I didn't clear it enough but what I said was a generalization, which applies more to shield pressuring and combing than attacking in general.

Well that's falco vs. three out of the 26 characters. This hardly holds true for the whole game and isn't even fully true for falco. What if they mix up their DI and DI back? If you don't read that correctly and react quickly enough, your combo just ended. The closest thing an "auto combo" is fox's waveshine, which only works on ~half the cast. For the rest, you have to read DI and know what to do in every situation.

Brawl isn't more strategic because in terms of strategy, everything is exactly the same as melee. You need good spacing, smart approaches, good zoning with projectiles, etc. to do well. Stop pretending like melee is mvc.


On topic, competitive gaming is dying because the game makers assume that if something is competitive or difficult, people won't like it. People loved melee even though there was difficult stuff to do. It was just the difficult stuff wasn't necessary to play the game. A good example of success in this area is pokemon. Competitively, it's incredibly deep and difficult to get used to; however, it still is mostly supported by casual players. That's because the technical aspects are subtle....

Spoiler

take notes sakurai

 

[Kanelol]

In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

I don't wanna do the whole Melee vs Brawl thing, but.. really?

 

[Fletch]

The closest thing an "auto combo" is fox's waveshine, which only works on ~half the cast. For the rest, you have to read DI and know what to do in every situation.

You can DI down to mess with this too. I was just going to do a write-up on l-canceling and why it adds depth, but I think Zhu did a good enough job so far. I want to address AZ's post about how numbers somehow make a game more competitive in his mind, something I completely disagree with. If this is the case, then I think we need to re-define competitive in the way it is being used in this thread.

 

[Sraigux]

Halo 2: Dead
Starcraft: Dying
Melee: Alive

But no new games have surfaced. I see your point, no wonder all the oldies were the goodies; it's because they were strategic.

 

[n1000]

Halo 2: Dead
Starcraft: Dying
Melee: Alive

This is a bizarre and arbitrary selection of "competitive games"

But no new games have surfaced.

False. SF4, Guilty Gear, HoN, Dungeon Fighter...the list goes on. Hell the apparently "dying" Starcraft is such a cash cow that blizzard is releasing a sequel 12 years later and though some of their decisions are controversial, it's being primed as the competitive strategy game for the near future.

I see your point, no wonder all the oldies were the goodies; it's because they were strategic.

This claim is also completely ****ing false. Do you mean to say that all old games are good because all of them are strategic? That's laughable.

Whatever you meant to say, Schopenhauer can lend some lucidity. "What is new is seldom good; because a good thing is only new for a short time."

 

[MaNg0]

What

the ****

did he just

say about my sheild pressure


suck

my

****


****!

 

[darkatma]

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

Lololol i sigged that ****

 

[Mew2King]

I just want to point out that I too thought Brawl was not a deep game

but you would be surprised how much there is to master in this game

it is a lot deeper than 99.9% of you will ever get to the level of or understand



Melee is obviously deeper though, but games like these, to be TRUELY mastered, is at such a level that you guys do not understand. There are ways to cover options or build overall better strategies that are still applicable even when guaranteed combos aren't available. Hitting people and putting them in a situation where you can cover their common options with something good becomes a large part of the game

Melee has a lot of %s you can memorize to do specific things which add an extra element to combo depth. This is a large part of the interestingness and depth of the game. There is a lot to learn for those that wish to learn. Experimenting is good because you can randomly learn a lot when you do it.

I say just play every smash



cept those crappy brawl+ and minus craps. Those are just goofy for-fun stuff that'll never be standard in anything. It is fun for a little bit though I guess, since it's a change. Novetly meh

 

[MajinSweet]

It seems TC missed the point of the post he quoted. He wasn't saying anything about SC2 taking away depth. Technical ability only alters depth when the difficulty to preform a move changes how it's used. For example, if a Dragon Punch in Street Fighter was one button, it would change the game drastically. But in a game like StarCraft, those types of situations don't come up because everything is essentially one button. It really is "faster=better" with no real limit. And I'm not really sure why so many gamers, especially American players who will NEVER EVER be top level in SC don't want SC2 to turn the dial just a tad back. Trust me, SC2 will still require a ton of APM, it's just how RTS games are. But lets at least try to find a balance where someone can't steamroll you without thought. Think about that "without thought" in a strategy game. And yes, for anyone doubting that, there are plenty of SC players that can pretty much **** 99% of the best players outside of Korea on autopilot.

To address the next point, there is plenty of reasons to make a good game for expert players. Part of Street Fighter fours success has been from the competitive community. If casuals know that all the best players play this particular fighting game, they are more likely to pick that one over competition. Why do you think Capcom has promotional tournaments to launch the games? To get the word out. And remember the most important thing, a game that's great at a high level can still be great at a low level of play. StarCraft is actually a great example of that. Making the game balanced and interesting is good for everyone and gives it lasting appeal. StarCraft not only sold well at release, but it continued to sell well over the years. Why? Competitive players kept on playing, and anyone they knew probably heard quite a bit about it, which in turn got more people to play and buy it.

 

[Pi]

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

srsly
do you?

 

[Carom]

I'm not assuming anything, I've played both games enough and I have come to conclusion that the difference between the two games competitively isn't significant enough to matter. In Brawl because their are no auto-broken combos(see Falco in melee), di-ing is easier and moves get staled fairly quickly, its far more difficult to kill your opponent and you have to make up for it by strategically placing hits.

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite. Even in brawl the greatest player are incapable of doing this against their opponents, they have to out-smart, out-space and out-read their opponents(watch ADHD vs Ally at gamers Uni-con, the strategizing and reads in the matches are stagering) In Melee auto-combos take away from competitive play.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Honestly watch mango play as Falco is melee, while he is attacking he is not required to think about anything. Just dair, l-canel, shine, dair, repeat process while adding the occasional up tilt instead of shine. That maybe difficult technically but no strategy is required, Brawl is the opposite.

wow...


you're absolutely right, brawl is better and the community should be glad to have someone like you in it

 

[VA]

I remember when you could go into a games store and not see cooking mama on the shelf.

The only company that really support competetive gaming is capcom. They have a loyal and dedicated fanbase that they support with their titles. Look at what they're giving us SSF4, TvC and MvC3. That is ****. Nintendo don't give a **** about us, they'd rather release character vs character boringness (brawl) than incredible attention to detail (melee).

I don't know that much about brawl, I'm sure there is a lot of depth involved. But when you really start to look at melee and how many things were thought about in the process of making it, it's mind boggling. It was clearly meant to operate as a legitimate fighter, I'm not sure the same can be said about Barwl.

 

[GHNeko]

I say just play every smash



cept those crappy brawl+ and minus craps. Those are just goofy for-fun stuff that'll never be standard in anything. It is fun for a little bit though I guess, since it's a change. Novetly meh

you hurt my soul good sir

and i root for you for brawl and melee too

/tears

 

[X1-12]

I remember when you could go into a games store and not see cooking mama on the shelf.

The only company that really support competetive gaming is capcom. They have a loyal and dedicated fanbase that they support with their titles. Look at what they're giving us SSF4, TvC and MvC3. That is ****. Nintendo don't give a **** about us, they'd rather release character vs character boringness (brawl) than incredible attention to detail (melee).

I don't know that much about brawl, I'm sure there is a lot of depth involved. But when you really start to look at melee and how many things were thought about in the process of making it, it's mind boggling. It was clearly meant to operate as a legitimate fighter, I'm not sure the same can be said about Barwl.

if making a game in depth will attract ~5% more players.. but cost an extra ~20% developing it then of course nintendo don't care, its all about money

 

[Fletch]

The only company that really support competetive gaming is capcom. They have a loyal and dedicated fanbase that they support with their titles. Look at what they're giving us SSF4, TvC and MvC3. That is ****. Nintendo don't give a **** about us, they'd rather release character vs character boringness (brawl) than incredible attention to detail (melee).

As much as I'd love to have Nintendo release another great competitive game like Melee, it isn't that they don't give a **** about us, they're just putting out what will sell. Don't blame them; if anything, blame the new influx of casual gamers for creating a bigger and better market.

 

[VA]

we're not even considered by nintendo, their new marketing strategy is leaving us behind. they can and are now releasing some more niche games for the hardcore/competitive fans but they're giving up the main brand names for gimmicky ******** like smash.