Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Zonderion]

I'm here to give my input, as a Rosalina main. I have not played any decent Ganons, so take this for what it's worth.

Luma is vital for this match up. If you aren't Luma hunting, you're doing it wrong. Rosalina cannot control Luma in the beginning stages of her hitstun, so if you get a good read, take out Luma. Once Luma is gone, expect Rosa to space and stall.

Since her aerials out match Ganon's, A good Rosalina will play the majority of the match in the air. Short hops, full hops, both defensively and offensively. This helps prevent ground approaches from Ganon as well as grabs. She should always keep her second jump as a back up.

If Rosalina grabs you expect to be juggled. Do your best with air dodges and other efforts to get back to the ground. Rosalina's off stage game is incredible and Ganon's is sub par. If recovering low watch for dair, if recovering high watch for fair, nair, or Luma shot.

This is one match where I will play with Luma separated, but only the minimal distance. I will only do this about 30% of the match though. This gives me more stage control, but the minimal distance doesn't allow Ganon to get in.

Go for hard reads in the middle of the stage, if you miss there is a good chance you will still be on the stage. If you connect, there's a good chance Rosalina will die. If you miss on the edge, you could get gimped.

Again, This may be because I haven't played any decent Ganons, but I give this match a 30:70 in Rosalina favor.

I would be more than happy to play against Ganon, so shoot me A pm if you are interested. I need practice against a good Ganon.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

With Rosalina, the only Ganondorf player that I ever fought online was James, and customizations were involved during that match. I have been caught off-guard by a good number of his aerial Wizard's Foot attacks, and as such, I have been punished for not anticipating them when I should've known better.

Of course, the match wasn't on an Omega Form stage, so we both had to be weary of the stage hazards.

Anyway, while I haven't done much if any online matches, Ganondorf does have the brute strength to send Rosalina flying quickly, but his low mobility can make it hard for him to approach Rosalina without receiving too much punishment from her. The Luma adds to the trouble, since it can get at Ganondorf's face before he even has a chance of touching Rosalina.

If the Luma is taken out of the picture, however, Ganondorf may have a chance to turn the fight around, but he still can't allow himself to be wide-open for Rosalina to take advantage of his weaknesses. If Rosalina sees Wizard's Foot coming, she can punish Ganondorf by blocking the attack, and then grabbing him. Flame Choke does bypass shields, but a good Rosalina can simply roll to avoid it, and then punish Ganondorf right back.

With customizations turned on, Rosalina can use Shooting Star Bit to attack Ganondorf from a distance, which can make it even harder for him to approach Rosalina without seeing his damage increase.

In terms of recovery, Ganondorf has to stay below ledges to avoid getting punished by Rosalina's edge-guard options.

Overall, it's a punish or be punished situation for Ganondorf, since Rosalina can really put a big beating on him if he's too careless with his attack options. Even if Rosalina is lacking a Luma, she can still punish Ganondorf real hard if he makes even one foolish attack choice.

In conclusion, I probably see this match-up favoring Rosalina more, so for now, I'll go with 30:70, with Rosalina having the advantage.

 

[mario123007]

With Rosalina, the only Ganondorf player that I ever fought online was James, and customizations were involved during that match. I have been caught off-guard by a good number of his aerial Wizard's Foot attacks, and as such, I have been punished for not anticipating them when I should've known better.

Of course, the match wasn't on an Omega Form stage, so we both had to be weary of the stage hazards.

Anyway, while I haven't done much if any online matches, Ganondorf does have the brute strength to send Rosalina flying quickly, but his low mobility can make it hard for him to approach Rosalina without receiving too much punishment from her. The Luma adds to the trouble, since it can get at Ganondorf's face before he even has a chance of touching Rosalina.

If the Luma is taken out of the picture, however, Ganondorf may have a chance to turn the fight around, but he still can't allow himself to be wide-open for Rosalina to take advantage of his weaknesses. If Rosalina sees Wizard's Foot coming, she can punish Ganondorf by blocking the attack, and then grabbing him. Flame Choke does bypass shields, but a good Rosalina can simply roll to avoid it, and then punish Ganondorf right back.

With customizations turned on, Rosalina can use Shooting Star Bit to attack Ganondorf from a distance, which can make it even harder for him to approach Rosalina without seeing his damage increase.

In terms of recovery, Ganondorf has to stay below ledges to avoid getting punished by Rosalina's edge-guard options.

Overall, it's a punish or be punished situation for Ganondorf, since Rosalina can really put a big beating on him if he's too careless with his attack options. Even if Rosalina is lacking a Luma, she can still punish Ganondorf real hard if he makes even one foolish attack choice.

In conclusion, I probably see this match-up favoring Rosalina more, so for now, I'll go with 30:70, with Rosalina having the advantage.

I'll go with @ Mario & Sonic Guy too.
30:70, I'll stick with this ratio too when it's Ganondorf's turn in Rosalina MU thread next week.

 

[jahkzheng]

Not true. Her nair and other aerials are decently safe approaches. Her neutral game is good even without Luma.

I think Rosalina is the *only* character Ganon flat out loses to.

Mainly because of two things.

1.) Flame Choke is shunned away even if you read her, it won't be easy to land. Her fast and quick rolls doesn't make her bait easy. And if you do land a choke, Luma is there to protect her (shielding will take both Luma and Rosalina's hits but with intense shield pressure). It's best to roll away after choke.

2.) Her safe aerial pressure. She has some very lingering aerial moves that she can switch around pressure you with. These moves have multiple hitboxes, which, if timed right, can be used against Ganon's shield safely.

Along with the above two major advantages she has over Ganon, there are a few other. She possibly has the best gimp, or spike game in Smash 4. Double hit down air is devastatingly good against Ganon. I've gotten away from many smart gimp attempts from many characters, but Rosa could just wait and bait.

She's not gimpable and has an unpredictable recovery.

And then there's also her Luma. Ever wondered why the Ice Climber and Ganon matchup was the worst in Brawl? For a similar reason I believe that the Rosa and Ganon matchup is the worst in Smash 4. Ganon cannot deal with characters who mess up his fundamental advantageous; flame choke, raw power and decent midrange pressure. A good Rosalina will use her Luma very expertly against a Ganon.

With all that said, this matchup comes to 65:35 Luma. For the worst matchup for Ganon, this is at least quite lift up from Brawl. Ganon still has raw power, and Rosa is still very light. You'll have to be very assertive & defensive with Luma and aggressive against Rosalina. This matchup is not impossible, but the only matchup Ganon does not have a very good shot at winning.

The only character Ganon outright loses to is Rosalina & Luma, with a 65:35.

Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zamus, Pikachu, Sonic & Greninja (from my conclusion so far) are all 40:60 their favour.

Everyone else is a neutral, a slight advantage, and maybe even one or two advantage.

I was waiting on your take on this matchup, especially after seeing that tough tourney match you had versus a Rosalina in that tourney a few weeks ago. Can't remember who was the Rosa, but, if I recall correctly, she went to finals vs a Dark Pit? Been a while since I've seen the stream.

 

[the king of murder]

I'm here to give my input, as a Rosalina main. I have not played any decent Ganons, so take this for what it's worth.

Luma is vital for this match up. If you aren't Luma hunting, you're doing it wrong. Rosalina cannot control Luma in the beginning stages of her hitstun, so if you get a good read, take out Luma. Once Luma is gone, expect Rosa to space and stall.

Since her aerials out match Ganon's, A good Rosalina will play the majority of the match in the air. Short hops, full hops, both defensively and offensively. This helps prevent ground approaches from Ganon as well as grabs. She should always keep her second jump as a back up.

If Rosalina grabs you expect to be juggled. Do your best with air dodges and other efforts to get back to the ground. Rosalina's off stage game is incredible and Ganon's is sub par. If recovering low watch for dair, if recovering high watch for fair, nair, or Luma shot.

This is one match where I will play with Luma separated, but only the minimal distance. I will only do this about 30% of the match though. This gives me more stage control, but the minimal distance doesn't allow Ganon to get in.

Go for hard reads in the middle of the stage, if you miss there is a good chance you will still be on the stage. If you connect, there's a good chance Rosalina will die. If you miss on the edge, you could get gimped.

Again, This may be because I haven't played any decent Ganons, but I give this match a 30:70 in Rosalina favor.

I would be more than happy to play against Ganon, so shoot me A pm if you are interested. I need practice against a good Ganon.

Yeah, I would love to do some matches. I have only fought one good Rosa and lost quite badly but my Ganon is decent otherwise so I can give you a challange. However, I only have the 3ds version, would you be okay with that?

Edit: Can't play now but will shoot you a pm later.

 

[R e d X]

I was waiting on your take on this matchup, especially after seeing that tough tourney match you had versus a Rosalina in that tourney a few weeks ago. Can't remember who was the Rosa, but, if I recall correctly, she went to finals vs a Dark Pit? Been a while since I've seen the stream.

That was me I'm pretty sure haha, and I pretty much agree with Kalm and Verm's take on the MU. It's pretty hard for ganon to get in and seperate luma, and when he does it usually involves a trade that's a punish, which also wastes valuable luma-free time, especially if it pushes ganon to the edge. And even when luma's gone, rosa's far from defenseless, and playing patiently & evasively for 12 or so seconds isn't at all impossible aginst ganon. It just feels like ganon needs read after read to make it work, so despite his raw power (and rosa's light weight) he has trouble taking advantage of it... whereas rosa has a much easier time applying pressure pretty safely and doing standard bait and punish type stuff, with pretty good reward. Even gimps on ganon are pretty standard in setup and execution, and her grab & follow-up game feels super rewarding vs ganon as well. I just really feel like ganon struggles continually in the matchup to get the job done whereas ros'a job is much easier and less complex

 

[Zonderion]

Yeah, I would love to do some matches. I have only fought one good Rosa and lost quite badly but my Ganon is decent otherwise so I can give you a challange. However, I only have the 3ds version, would you be okay with that?

Edit: Can't play now but will shoot you a pm later.

I've only got the Wii U version, although I will probably get the 3DS version soon.

 

[jahkzheng]

That was me I'm pretty sure haha, and I pretty much agree with Kalm and Verm's take on the MU. It's pretty hard for ganon to get in and seperate luma, and when he does it usually involves a trade that's a punish, which also wastes valuable luma-free time, especially if it pushes ganon to the edge. And even when luma's gone, rosa's far from defenseless, and playing patiently & evasively for 12 or so seconds isn't at all impossible aginst ganon. It just feels like ganon needs read after read to make it work, so despite his raw power (and rosa's light weight) he has trouble taking advantage of it... whereas rosa has a much easier time applying pressure pretty safely and doing standard bait and punish type stuff, with pretty good reward. Even gimps on ganon are pretty standard in setup and execution, and her grab & follow-up game feels super rewarding vs ganon as well. I just really feel like ganon struggles continually in the matchup to get the job done whereas ros'a job is much easier and less complex

I knew your name seemed familiar and I felt like I remembered you were that Rosa, but I wasn't sure. I almost asked for more details on your opinions regarding the Ganon matchup after your initial post even, I was so near to pinning you as "that Rosa". Was a lot of good matches on that stream and I didn't exactly remember who was who to be perfectly honest though.

I'm guessing Rosa is your main? I know it's kind of unrelated, but who do you find to be her toughest matchup? I'm guessing someone with a generally good and fast pressure game and nice recovery options. I suppose Dark Pit would fit that bill somewhat. Was also thinking Sonic or Sheik maybe. Zamus seems like she'd be great for pressure against Rosa, but also be more gimpable perhaps. Now I'm wondering if her gun paralyzes Luma. Clearly not played much with either of those characters. Ohhh, and Lucario. Lucario I bet can be a handful. That aura and launch power against Rosa, reach and priority on a lot moves to increase pressure, and that recovery of course.

Btw, I'll admit I was kind of rooting for that Dark Pit in that tourney final because, at the time, Rosa seemed like a pretty well recognized high tier and I hadn't heard of anyone using Dark Pit competitively. Basically, I'm a sucker for underdogs, heh. Maybe if I knew the competitors better I'd have felt differently. Think the Dark Pit was Blacktwins or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong. Really enjoyed seeing that tourney in any case and I'm glad Kalm linked the stream.

 

[MezzoMe]

Being a main of both characters I think that I should say what I know about this match-up
First off and most important thing:
Did you remember the Olimar match-up in Brawl days?
Well, at a point I thought that this match-up was like this.
But let's start off with the good things.

1. Ganondorf can K.O. Her very easily, usually under 100%, prior to her being very light, especially to the upper blast line(prior to her being floaty);
2. Ganondorf's attacks usually outprioritize hers when she's without Luma, of course, assuming her attack isn't trascendental, but with Luma things get weird since, if you didn't know, Luma is keen to wreck every rule of priority.

Well, that's about it.
When Rosalina sends away Luma you'll want to use USmash, DTilt and hitlag/auto-cancelled aerials, since other attacks will most likely get punished.
With Ganondorf's high falling speed and big hurtbox, she can set-up a jab reset or a Bair/Nair lock with the Nair and Fair wich will end with a FSmash and a subsequent gimp if you aren't ready to tech.
Additionally, she can juggle Ganondorf 25/24h.
She also can end a stock pretty early with various gimps, namely with her Dair for Dark Dive and Bair for the Flame Choke (speaking of this, as it has already been stated, Ganondorf might end up frametrapping himself if he lands a Flame Choke) and by sending Luma to the ledge or offstage with smash attacks other than the afermentioned Dair and Bair(she needs to call Luma back for it to send you offstage).
She can pressure Ganon's shield heavily with Lunar Landing(auto-cancelling early her aerials, usually the Nair, so that she'll be lagless or nearly while Luma attacks, if she uses Side B or Neutral B Luma will partecipate normally to the attack interrupting the afermentioned aerials), with jab, star bits or by sending Luma near you and button mashing, as such there's no pratical option other than rolling away, granted you don't powershield the attack.
Did I forget something?
Oh, sure.
If you didn't know, Luma can attack only in the helpless state of Launch star, wich means that, after juggling you, she can UThrow/Smash/Tilt->Launch Star->Shoryuken(Luma's Uair) to kill early off the top blast line just as well as the bottom and sideways one.
But there are two situations where you are at an advantage.
The first is while juggling her, she can have trouble avoiding an Uair without reading it, if you for some reason menage to grab her, you can DThrow->Uair her and position yourself fiagonnally down in front of her, a position that can be covered only by the late hit of her Nair, Luma's Dair can hit Ganondorf as well, but the attack is slower than the Uair, just be aware of the Luma when he's on the way back to Rosalina.
The other situation is where she is recovering.
Her recovery has no hitboxes and can only travel three distances, despite traveling fast and far, giving you a chance to finish her stock.
It's not like I think this match-uo should be a straight 0:100, but she is at advantage in neutral and at an even harder one for any situation after the neutral, with the advantageus situations for Ganon being hard to pull off because of the afermentioned trouble in neutral.
However, with custom moves enabled, this match-up might become somewhat playable, though it probably still isn't even.
You will want to use the most common set(2-3-2-2) and here's why.
Warlock Blade
It can eat all of Luma's options when sent out, forcing Rosalina to call him back, with his deceptive range potentially making it unpunishable, it can also pressure a distant lunar landing, and will also blast away Luma, also if it breaks her shield, Warlock can finish her reliably.
Flame Chain
Other than not frametrapping Ganondorf, it'll also drag Luma offstage, though it's likely to be punished if Rosalina shields(unless she's on the ledge) or dodges the attack in various ways.
Wizard Dropkick
Helped by Rosalina's sub-par aerial speed, it can save Ganon from juggles, other than making his recovery a little scarier and better, forcing her juggling to be at ground level
Dark Fists
It can eat the hit attempting to juggle, edgeguard or shield pressure you(unless it ends with a grab) and can be used as mix-up and with baiting in general akin to Vanish, since the Super Armor lasts until the hitbox comes out (and I'm pretty sure that that hitbox is trascendental?), but it kills stupidly early already at a ground level.
For what matters of Rosalina's customs, Shooting Star Bit can be powershielded (if expected) or dodged with Wizard Dropkick, while you have to be cautious with Floaty Star Bits. With Luma Warp you must be more cautios than Luma Shot since the move is nearly istantaneous at the cost of sending Luma a set distance and not being able to kill. I think that Launch Star Plus can help her with the Luma's Shoryouken. Luma Guardian can be used by her if you are too relentless but it will often get beaten by Dark Fists.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know that you guys have been analyzing Ganondorf's match-up against Rosalina, but the Rosalina sub-forum is now analyzing you. If you have anything to contribute to the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread, regarding Rosalina vs. Ganondorf, we'll be analyzing him until the end of 2/13.

 

[Claire Diviner]

MezzoMe pretty much hit the nail on the head. With that info, plus my not-so-detailed analysis in the Rosalina boards, I'd give this MU a 70:30 .

Basically, Ganon has to play defensive and bait Rosalina's attacks. Her fastest and safest attacks are her Ftilt and Dtilt. Everything else can be punished hard if Ganon's reaction is fast enough. On that same token, a defensive Rosalina would be hell for a Ganondorf, but the upside is that Ganondorf can do away with Luma fairly easily with a Ftilt, leaving Rosalina vulnerable (though not necessarily helpless).

 

[Shmeckie]

I feel like there's way too much downplaying of the whole "can K.O. Rosalina easily" point. Scoring those K.O.s is how you win the match, after all. To me, this seems strange. Basically you're saying "yeah, Ganondorf can defeat Rosalina more easily buuuuut...." Also I see Rosa players saying "Ganon has to be careful and wait for an opening," but we know that's not true. That's been something Ganon players discovered before the Wii U version came out; this is one of the few matchups where we can go totally aggro. Going uncharacteristically aggressive is how we deal with Rosalina best.

Ganon can get rid of Luma easily, which cripples Rosa, and can kill her with much less effort, yes, she has a big advantage in mobility and priority, which is why you have to respect her but Ganon's tilts and U-air are the bane of Rosa's existence as much as her D-air and smashes with Luma are the bane of our's. And Ganon makes Rosa's dash attack much more dangerous than normal to do, since the downtime from that move guarantees she's going to eat a tilt if Ganon sees it coming and blocks it.

 

[jahkzheng]

You seem to have a lot of confidence in your strategies Shmeckie. I like the idea that they'd be good in practice, and not just in theory. And if we were to go on my very limited experiences with Rosalinas, I'd totally agree. It's just that, I'm almost certain I've faced nothing but mediocre Rosas in For Glory and I also know that I'm a fairly average player myself. If I were to represent Ganon on my own and make a judgement, I could say that the matchup is way in Ganon's favor just because I've never faced a scary one. Likewise, if I just lost match after match to a good one, I could make the argument that it's unwinnable. This is the dilemma of judging these things if you're the only reference you have to make that determination. Maybe you've fought some really legit Rosas and worked them over with this strategy, or you know this strategy works by other means beside personal experience. I don't know. Video links would be awesome if you have them.

All I know is that we have some established top tier Ganon's here that say Rosalina is a rough matchup for us, and I know they have fought some legit Rosas. Yeah, Ganon can KO Rosalina early due to her weight and his power, and he can get rid of Luma with just a hit or two. According to most Rosas and Ganons weighing in, that's not enough to swing it for Ganon. Your 50:50 or slightly better assessment is a pretty significant outlier admittedly. Would be sweet for us if it really was closer to even and maybe you're on to something when it comes to fighting her. My gut tells me it's not such a sunny outlook in reality, and the majority of the opinions point toward this conclusion. Similarly though, I have a hard time believing this matchup is worse than 20:80 for Ganon.

 

[Shmeckie]

Even if I agree that Ganon's at a disadvantage here (though I don't, I won't be changing minds with that one so I won't try), there's no way the disadvantage is as huge as people are making it out to be. Based on my own experience against the truly scary Rosa's I've fought, Ganon's kill power has just been such a significant factor, and has saved my butt more times than I can count. Especially F- and D-tilt, those things are your best friends in this matchup. 4:6 I can see. 3:7?! Nah, dawg. Not when he can kill her, and take away her primary method of killing him, as well as he can.

And believe me, if I had a capture card or anything like that, I'd be sharing replay videos to an obnoxious degree on the video thread... I should probably look into getting one when the money starts coming in...

 

[Scraptor]

I fail to see the difference between 30:70 and 40:60. To me either way the match up seem heavy in her favor. I think the important part of these discussions is how to deal with this match up and the tips to winning because let’s be honest how many match ups Ganon has a huge advantage over? Maybe Kirby, Wario? We naturally have a disadvantage to anyone that has projectiles and speedy move as we rely on reads, power, and edge guarding. Honestly the tip on being more aggressive in the Rosa MU has been one of the most helpful tips.
The fact that most of these other characters haven’t played a good Ganon makes it real hard. That is why I wished there were character tournaments meaning each character has a spot in the top 52 spots no switching, you are locked in with that character. I mean watching Apex I was damn there are 52 characters but we only seen like the same 6 or so. I get it don’t get me wrong, but it just seems like a waste of a large roster to not do more of something like that.

 

[jahkzheng]

The diversity of characters seen at a Smash 4 tourney is pretty good still, especially relative to most of what you'd see in a Brawl tourney. Even Melee tourneys feature many of the same characters. Granted Melee has less characters, but it's too be expected in these kinds of games that 6 characters or so represent 80% of the characters you see in tourney. I don't think Smash 4 has nearly that kind of disparity. Would be cool to do a survey of tourney data and see who is used the most competitively. I bet there's at least 12 characters represented before we'd reach 80% of what's seen. Of course, a much smaller number than that are entrants that end up in semis or finals. Over time we might expect that characters that get that far will be a strong representation. I bet Diddy alone might represent about 5-10% of what you see already, since he appears to be the most popular and arguably most successful character. MK had much much more unbalanced representation at times. I should add that these numbers I'm throwing out are speculative estimates. Like I said, would be interesting to gather data and see just how much Smash 4 is leaning towards the use of particular characters.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm about 95% positive I ran into Dabuz and Will taking turns on For Glory. All I'm gonna say about the Rosalina matchup is that I switched to Yoshi before reverse warlock punching my television into space.

 

[Shmeckie]

I fail to see the difference between 30:70 and 40:60. To me either way the match up seem heavy in her favor.

4/6 means we're at a disadvantage, but it's workable.

3/7 means it's a real uphill battle and we're likely to lose.

To put it in terms of Street Fighter 4 matchups, 4/6 is Bison vs. Guile. 3/7 is Vega vs. Balrog, which makes me twitch just thinking about that matchup.

I think the important part of these discussions is how to deal with this match up and the tips to winning because let’s be honest how many match ups Ganon has a huge advantage over? Maybe Kirby, Wario? We naturally have a disadvantage to anyone that has projectiles and speedy move as we rely on reads, power, and edge guarding. Honestly the tip on being more aggressive in the Rosa MU has been one of the most helpful tips.
The fact that most of these other characters haven’t played a good Ganon makes it real hard. That is why I wished there were character tournaments meaning each character has a spot in the top 52 spots no switching, you are locked in with that character. I mean watching Apex I was damn there are 52 characters but we only seen like the same 6 or so. I get it don’t get me wrong, but it just seems like a waste of a large roster to not do more of something like that.

Ganon is not as hampered by projectiles as you seem to think. Online, yeah, but not normally. Powershielding will get you a long way, along with the occasional smart roll or spot dodge. A lot of players will switch to a projectile spammer when they get scared of Ganon's kill power, and visibly have no idea what to do if you're competent with your shields. Plus nothing freaks the kids on For Glory out more than when you start marching their way and powershielding every projectile they toss at you like you're doing your best impression of Street Fighter 3's Parry system (just dropping SF references left and right in this post...). I can think of a good handful of characters Ganon has an advantageous matchup against, including a couple popular ones, but we're focusing on Rosalina right now.

 

[Xinc]

Sorry for the delay on my response, guys. Classes and falling ill make for a horrid combination. Thanks for all the info thus far; I'm very pleased with the discussion.

Here is my take on it. I used to play against a Rosalina who was around my level and learned the matchup accordingly.
I'm saying it's more like 35-65 (without customs). Without customs, Ganondorf has a harder time closing in the distance and eliminating Luma, who is essential to the matchup. Due to the NERF Rosalina saw prior to 1.04, Ganondorf now has a bit more leniency and chances to get in once Luma's out.

Yes, it's an uphill battle in that Ganon needs to make split second decisions whether to continue a risky pursuit or back away when Rosalina's Luma respawns, or that Ganondorf's great moves, the Flame Choke, is extremely risky. First things first, if Rosalina fails to tech, she still isn't susceptible to the down tilt follow up. To make things worse, Ganondorf doesn't have that super armor when Rosalina's on the ground after the choke, so Luma can hit him away if it's there, and Ganondorf will be forced back.

That's not to say it's unwinnable. Rosalina is a light character with a tall height, giving Ganondorf the opportunity to end stocks a bit easier. For example, a rage Ganon can hit Rosalina with the last hitbox of the Wizard's Foot near the edge of the stage while she is at mid-percents, and it has the potential to end a stock. Furthermore, Ganon can take advantage of IASA frames in his up smash to bait a mistake from Rosalina.

Overall, the best stage Ganon can do against Rosa is Battlefield. He can juggle her; Rosalina has awful air speed. Her down air loses to Ganondorf's up air, meaning he can juggle her, and even kill her at higher percents. Platform trapping is something Ganondorf players must learn to win this matchup, as well as maintaining the base stage control.

My experiences against Rosalina and Luma tells me Ganondorf needs to play patiently, but also aggressively. Be prepared to get punished for unsafe attacks, mainly a shield grab. Don't get nervous and don't make too many mistakes, but Ganon is heavy. He can afford a bit more extra percent. Trading is crucial. I believe neutral air beats Rosa's neutral air and fair if timed corrected.

Also, if you somehow manage to get a grab, don't bother to pummel if Luma's here. At low percents, down throw can lead up to an up air. Furthermore, do whatever you can to keep Luma and Rosalina separated. You don't have to kill it to beat Rosalina, just get it away. It's similar to the Ice Climber in Melee matchup, where killing Nana isn't a necessity, but is preferred. However, making sure Luma doesn't return OR PUNISHING Rosalina's attempt to call it back is crucial.

tl;dr: Punish all her openings. Neutral B calling back luma has fair lag. You should be able to hit her with a Wizkick at least. Get her into the air, and get under her. Her only options are down air and air dodge. That separates her from Luma as well (getting her in the air), so take advantage of that.

 

[jahkzheng]

@ Xinc

"Her down air loses to Ganondorf's up air, meaning he can juggle her, and even kill her at higher percents."

Not so cut and dry I'd say. We don't really "beat" her dair, we get around it or we get in tight and start our uair before she uses dair. The lingering disjointed hitbox of Rosa's dair is a huge pain. Granted, if we do trade, Ganon's uair is a bit more significant a blow. In a lot of cases though, that trade isn't worth it; e.g., when we're offstage.

Rosa's dair a better gimping tool than it is a landing coverer. That's not saying it's a bad landing coverer, but more that it's an exceptional gimping tool. A Rosa trying not to get juggled can be baited into a premature dair and allow us to sneak in a quick punish. We can also sneak around it using the stage to angle in on her landing. Baiting and punishing is a lot more dangerous when a Rosa has you off stage. Usually your mind is on just getting back somehow and any bait you throw out is more a result of trying to recover unpredictably just so you can recover at all and avoid the gimp. If Rosa gives you a legit chance to punish a mistake during your recovery, you just got a huge break. Truth is Rosa doesn't even really have to leave the stage to gimp you with her dair on stages with tapered edges. I would not recommend trying to beat it with uair in most cases. The consequences of throwing one out on a Rosa trying to come back down on stage from a juggle is a lot less severe than throwing one out on a Rosa looking to gimp, obviously.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf's discussion period ended at Rosalina's sub-forum, and I got an average of either 72:28, or 70.5:29.5. Of course, since I own the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread, I never inputted my ratio.

Obviously, the two ratios above are from Rosalina's perspective, so they'd be switched to 28:72 and 29.5:70.5 for Ganondorf's perspective. As for the average that @ Xinc got, combining his 35:65 with my 28:72 would get an average of 31.5:68.5.

 

[jahkzheng]

Basically 30:70 / 70:30 for all intents and purposes, depending on the perspective, as I figured.

 

[jmanup85]

From my play time I agree with a few people here, Ganondorf outright loses to 3 characters. Villager, Rosalina and Sheik. Not impossible, but really tough and imo. I highly suggest a counterpick or just get godly at the Dorf.

 

[jahkzheng]

From my play time I agree with a few people here, Ganondorf outright loses to 3 characters. Villager, Rosalina and Sheik. Not impossible, but really tough and imo. I highly suggest a counterpick or just get godly at the Dorf.

I would definitely accept being godly at Ganon, if I could manage it. If not though, the next question is, who properly counterpicks these characters you listed? Not an advantage per se, but at least has a much more favorable matchup. I suppose that a question best answered in a different thread however.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

From my play time I agree with a few people here, Ganondorf outright loses to 3 characters. Villager, Rosalina and Sheik. Not impossible, but really tough and imo. I highly suggest a counterpick or just get godly at the Dorf.

Villager's actually a pretty dead even match-up. He can play very safe and with a lot of strings, but there are instances in which Ganon can dominate him.

 

[JmacAttack]

Villager's actually a pretty dead even match-up. He can play very safe and with a lot of strings, but there are instances in which Ganon can dominate him.

I agree.

Also, the Greninja boards seem to think Ganon has really bad problems in that matchup, so the like two people who mentioned Ganon said it was like 70:30, because speed + projectile, which is laughably wrong. It's even, if not favorable for Ganon, because both characters rely on punishes, but Ganon's are better, and Greninja has problems killing and edge guarding, while Ganon dominates both. Greninja has a counter, but it doesn't scale to the attack it counters, and is avoidable, making it the worst in the game. Hydro Pump isn't dangerous, as it usually knocks up no matter what.

Fortunately, they kind of skipped Ganon and never made that the matchup, but I just shook my head at that.

 

[Vermanubis]

Disagree strongly about Villager. The only instance I can think in which Ganon gets the upperhand is when Villager's balloon is deployed and we can harrass him off stage. Otherwise, if a Villager knows their stuff, he has enough massive, lingering hitboxes that are extremely safe, along with his projectiles and traps and unparalleled gimping ability, that I'm torn between preference to fight either Villager or Rosa. Unlike Rosa, he also has the capacity to be very aggressive because of said speed, hitboxes and their durations.

One of those MUs where the terror doesn't manifest until you fight a class A specimen, in contrast to Rosa, who makes things horrible just by virtue of things which present themselves in common play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Villager's actually a pretty dead even match-up. He can play very safe and with a lot of strings, but there are instances in which Ganon can dominate him.

I personally think we lose slightly against Villager, but I don't think it's horrible. You just have to be really careful to not take unnecessary damage as you try to get close. Ganondorf has a strong chance of being able to establish an advantage while he's at low% and isn't taking much knockback from the Slingshot. However if you take too much unnecessary damage and get put offstage too often, Villager becomes difficult to recover against.

 

[jmanup85]

Villager's actually a pretty dead even match-up. He can play very safe and with a lot of strings, but there are instances in which Ganon can dominate him.

I don't think that matchup is dead even at all. And I play against a good Villager all the time. He can easily wall us and if we're off stage it's most likely a wrap for you. Even a ganoncide is out of the question since his nair beats it, I actually think our uair is our best tool in coming back onstage against the Villager. But this is a Rosalina discussion right now, and we lose that one pretty bad, although Aerudo can work ok against her if used sparingly. The follow up has given me the chance to get rid of Luma too.

 

[Xinc]

Ganondorf's discussion period ended at Rosalina's sub-forum, and I got an average of either 72:28, or 70.5:29.5. Of course, since I own the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread, I never inputted my ratio.

Obviously, the two ratios above are from Rosalina's perspective, so they'd be switched to 28:72 and 29.5:70.5 for Ganondorf's perspective. As for the average that @ Xinc got, combining his 35:65 with my 28:72 would get an average of 31.5:68.5.

Alright folks. Thanks for the wonderful discussion, everyone. I'll do my best to compile all the information. This is a lot of hefty info and I feel I should probably include mentions of custom move sets, since they are starting to become more relevant.

Feel free to add any more inputs you want about Rosalina for the time being, as I do not anticipate being able to update before tomorrow night.

@ Mario & Sonic Guy This doesn't make sense as it looks like you took my points and just straight up did an average with these numbers. Shouldn't it be a weighted average? So for example, if 10 people took the poll before me, and then added my result, it would be (28*7+35)/11 = 28.875 => 29?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy This doesn't make sense as it looks like you took my points and just straight up did an average with these numbers. Shouldn't it be a weighted average? So for example, if 10 people took the poll before me, and then added my result, it would be (28*7+35)/11 = 28.875 => 29?

I thought your ratio was the overall average for the Ganondorf vs. Rosalina match-up here. Sorry about that. Anyway, your equation is a bit off. If 10 people took a poll before you, the equation would have to be ((28*10)+35)/11.

Now, since there were 11 ratio contributions at Rosalina's thread, the formula would go as follows if I added your ratio onto the equation...

((28*11)+35)/12 = 28.583 -> 29
((72*11)+65)/12 = 71.417 -> 71

The average would become 29:71 for Ganondorf's perspective.

 

[Xinc]

I thought your ratio was the overall average for the Ganondorf vs. Rosalina match-up here. Sorry about that. Anyway, your equation is a bit off. If 10 people took a poll before you, the equation would have to be ((28*10)+35)/11.

Now, since there were 11 ratio contributions at Rosalina's thread, the formula would go as follows if I added your ratio onto the equation...

((28*11)+35)/12 = 28.583 -> 29
((72*11)+65)/12 = 71.417 -> 71

The average would become 29:71 for Ganondorf's perspective.

I put the wrong button. Since I originally had it for 10, but then the numbers I thought would have been too frivolous.

 

[Claire Diviner]

As a Rosalina main who has played several Ganons (some good, some not so good), I can say that Rosalina has a clear advantage. I've already said my analysis in the Rosalina boards:

"lol. Okay, let's get one thing clear: Though Ganondorf is improved from his Brawl incarnation, he still has a lot of problems.

As for the matchup, from my experience, Ganondorf is not a hard matchup for Rosalina. Rosalina can zone him quite comfortably and can render everything outside of a grab useless if Rosalina is played defensively. Ganondorf's air game when Rosalina is above can be of a concern if Luma is absent, and Ganondorf can kill Rosalina fairly early. Otherwise, Ganon, with his weight, size, and lack of any really threatening approach options, shouldn't be feared... too much."

On the whole, there's nothing I can add that others haven't already. What I can say on the part of the Rosalina player, is to take caution should Ganon go Rage. A Rage mode Ganon is something to respect, and Rosalina's light weight does her no favors in that regard.

30:70

 

[Xinc]

As a Rosalina main who has played several Ganons (some good, some not so good), I can say that Rosalina has a clear advantage. I've already said my analysis in the Rosalina boards:

"lol. Okay, let's get one thing clear: Though Ganondorf is improved from his Brawl incarnation, he still has a lot of problems.

As for the matchup, from my experience, Ganondorf is not a hard matchup for Rosalina. Rosalina can zone him quite comfortably and can render everything outside of a grab useless if Rosalina is played defensively. Ganondorf's air game when Rosalina is above can be of a concern if Luma is absent, and Ganondorf can kill Rosalina fairly early. Otherwise, Ganon, with his weight, size, and lack of any really threatening approach options, shouldn't be feared... too much."

On the whole, there's nothing I can add that others haven't already. What I can say on the part of the Rosalina player, is to take caution should Ganon go Rage. A Rage mode Ganon is something to respect, and Rosalina's light weight does her no favors in that regard.

30:70

Thank you for your wonderful input! I happen to agree with you, but I feel that the fact if Ganon can capitalize on a single mistake and close in room, Rosalina starts to get a bit more into trouble. However, I disagree with the statement that Rosalina can render everything outside a grab useless. I believe the main pain point for Ganon is to eliminate the Luma and start being aggressive to an unarmed Rosalina. Once that happens, he can get easier kills. Moves such as Wizard's Foot would separate Luma. Even though Ganon will most likely be punished, he would have done his job.

I think he does have the tools to do that, such as Wizard's Foot, Down Tilt, Forward Tilt, and Neutral Air. When you add customs, WDK goes past Luma and attacks at a more advantageous angle, while Flame Chain not only separates Luma, but also makes shield grabbing unsafe for Rosalina.

Thoughts?

Almost done writing, for those who are curious. I had to travel home to NY for the weekend.

 

[JmacAttack]

Almost done writing, for those who are curious. I had to travel home to NY for the weekend.

Excellent!

I totally agree with everything you said, Xinc. This matchup is only troublesome because of the Luma, and nothing is outright shut down except for Flame Choke, but if Luma is alive, it can thwart all your plans. It's easy to knock out of the way with a tilt though, and is often killed outright with a smash attack. I would also like to add that if you make sure to immediately kill the Luma as soon as it pops back in, Ganon has a much easier time in this matchup. I've had Rosas try to rapid jab me without Luma, and my dash attack sailed right through it unopposed. Also good to note that if Luma is BEHIND Rosa for whatever reason, Wizard Foot becomes more effective, since it hits Rosa first and Luma second. Other than that, I think we've covered everything.

 

[Claire Diviner]

However, I disagree with the statement that Rosalina can render everything outside a grab useless. I believe the main pain point for Ganon is to eliminate the Luma and start being aggressive to an unarmed Rosalina. Once that happens, he can get easier kills. Moves such as Wizard's Foot would separate Luma. Even though Ganon will most likely be punished, he would have done his job.

True enough, but one of the things Rosalina should do is take control of the center of the stage. Sure, not the easiest thing when a character is all up in one's grill, but so long as she's toward the center, Luma isn't going to die easily from tumbling off stage. If anything, Luma would sooner die from pure damage. Add spacious stages, like Town & City or Duck Hunt, and Luma will be harder to eliminate.

I think he does have the tools to do that, such as Wizard's Foot, Down Tilt, Forward Tilt, and Neutral Air. When you add customs, WDK goes past Luma and attacks at a more advantageous angle, while Flame Chain not only separates Luma, but also makes shield grabbing unsafe for Rosalina.

Thoughts?

The problem with some of those moves is that they can be punished. Luma can be used as a "meat shield" of sorts just for Rosalina to grab. Furthermore, Shooting Star Bit can be used to camp Ganon and keep him at a distance, forcing him to approach, causing a game of bait and punish. Flame Chain is a good move in the MU for getting through Luma, but while Rosalina can't shield grab, she can buffer a pivot grab after Flame Chain's animation.

In the end, it's all about who can bait who and can punish who first and better. I will admit that Ganon isn't totally shut down by Rosalina, but by and far, his options in practice are pretty limited when Luma is in play. Still, he can kill Luma fairly easily regardless with some good capitalizations, and only then will he have a far easier time; I'd say that without Luma, it turns the MU into a 50:50 MU. Other than that, I stick with my point... for the most part.

 

[MezzoMe]

Thank you for your wonderful input! I happen to agree with you, but I feel that the fact if Ganon can capitalize on a single mistake and close in room, Rosalina starts to get a bit more into trouble. However, I disagree with the statement that Rosalina can render everything outside a grab useless. I believe the main pain point for Ganon is to eliminate the Luma and start being aggressive to an unarmed Rosalina. Once that happens, he can get easier kills. Moves such as Wizard's Foot would separate Luma. Even though Ganon will most likely be punished, he would have done his job.

I think he does have the tools to do that, such as Wizard's Foot, Down Tilt, Forward Tilt, and Neutral Air. When you add customs, WDK goes past Luma and attacks at a more advantageous angle, while Flame Chain not only separates Luma, but also makes shield grabbing unsafe for Rosalina.

Thoughts?

Almost done writing, for those who are curious. I had to travel home to NY for the weekend.

It's true that usually Luma dies from a single hit, but in order for such thing to happen, Luma must fall through the blast line wich, in order to happen needs Ganondorf to be at an edge of the stage, something that can rarely happen at the beginning of the match given the gap between the two characters' running speed.
Furthermore, Ganondorf has a lot of problems solved against Rosalina in neutral if Luma dies, but those problems are all about the neutral, when juggled and edgeguarded, Ganondorf's problems are merely halved by Luma's absence(and he 'll be in one of those two situations since, as you said, he'll get punished by landing a hit on Luma)in the first case because Rosalina has higher air speed than Ganondorf and a well spaced Uair of her>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything Ganon has, in fact Ganon can escape juggling only by reading the moment when every single Uair will be done and air dodging accordingly, and when edgeguarding, Rosalina's Fair, Dair and Bair outprioritize both of Ganondorf's recoveries, despite being faster than them by a wide margin.
Customs do indeed solve many of Ganondorf's problems in several situations.

 

[Xinc]

It's true that usually Luma dies from a single hit, but in order for such thing to happen, Luma must fall through the blast line wich, in order to happen needs Ganondorf to be at an edge of the stage, something that can rarely happen at the beginning of the match given the gap between the two characters' running speed.
Furthermore, Ganondorf has a lot of problems solved against Rosalina in neutral if Luma dies, but those problems are all about the neutral, when juggled and edgeguarded, Ganondorf's problems are merely halved by Luma's absence(and he 'll be in one of those two situations since, as you said, he'll get punished by landing a hit on Luma)in the first case because Rosalina has higher air speed than Ganondorf and a well spaced Uair of her>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything Ganon has, in fact Ganon can escape juggling only by reading the moment when every single Uair will be done and air dodging accordingly, and when edgeguarding, Rosalina's Fair, Dair and Bair outprioritize both of Ganondorf's recoveries, despite being faster than them by a wide margin.
Customs do indeed solve many of Ganondorf's problems in several situations.

Thanks for the wonderful input.

As for those who are wondering, I'm almost done. We'll be moving on from Ganondorf's nightmare soon enough!

 

[adom4]

Minor nitpick but in Yoshi's summary the purple font makes it hard to read, can you change it to a white font please?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A quick nitpick myself, I would put the Peach match-up as 50:50 now instead of 45:55.

It was done before the patch, and going through the game, Peach is actually solidly even.

Peach vs Ganon this game resembles Falco vs Marth in brawl. Fun, and very very even on both sides.