Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Blobface]

Wait stuff does less damage in training because of fresh/stale moves? I know D-air and most of Ganon's smash attacks usually do 1 more % in normal play than they do in training.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Fresh attacks in normal play do 5% more damage than in training mode I think.

 

[Xinc]

Character Description: Mr. Game & Watch (Mr.ゲーム＆ウォッチ, Misutā Gēmu ando Wotchi) is a Nintendo video game character. He is the signature character of the handheld Game and Watch games. He's been featured in a large number of titles, and has appeared as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. Melee and Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Mr. Game & Watch first appeared in the Game & Watch video game Ball, a title in which the player must simultaneously juggle three balls at once.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Ganondorf has access to forward tilt, down tilt, jab out of a non-tech choke due to Game and Watch's stature when on the floor. Due to Mr. Game & Watch's slow rolls, it is also simple to react on following up another Flame Choke.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Mr. Game & Watch has access to Chef, which spews projectiles of 5 different trajectories. Each projectile is shot out with one of five trajectories, and the next one will not be sent the same way. Because the move is spammable, it can be a good camping option. It would help to take into consideration with the way each projectile is shot out. However, there is also punishable lag with the startup, meaning a Warlock Blade custom may be the safest option to counter it. If the projectile is sent high, a Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot will still be able to connect, however. Otherwise, a shield grab if Ganondorf is close enough (to get hit by the pan) ought to quit projectile spamming.

Understanding the Matchup: Both Mr. Game & Watch and Ganondorf excel in punishing each other and racking up damage. Mr. Game & Watch has a great juggle game, and has good kill moves. However, Ganondorf does not need as many kills. Each of his attacks deal massive damage. Taking into account Mr. Game & Watch's light weight, this means a well-placed smash attack will kill Mr. Game & Watch rather early. Ganondorf doesn't need to go offstage in order to kill Mr. Game & Watch, which is great, because Mr. Game & Watch has a good recovery that is difficult to gimp. Hence, Ganondorf should play defensively and space well to land solid hits, punishing any moves left wide open.

Primarily, Ganondorf's preferred spacing move is down tilt, which outranges Mr. Game & Watch's own down tilt, and comes out quickly. It sends Mr. Game & Watch up and away if it connects, leaving Ganondorf room to recover if he is in a tough situation. Most of Ganondorf's moves outrange Mr. Game & Watch's, including down tilt, up air, and neutral air. Not to mention, these moves deal a lot of damage in Mr. Game & Watch's case; it doesn't take a lot of these kinds of hits to connect to send Mr. Game & Watch away.

If Ganondorf manages to get a Flame Choke, one of the best moves against Mr. Game & Watch, he can terrorize the 2-D man. Be cautious though, as Mr. Game & Watch can use forward air to hit Ganondorf out of Flame Choke on reaction, but that shouldn't be discouraging, as Flame Choke is a deadly move that severely limits Mr. Game & Watch, especially if he doesn't tech. Forward Tilt kills Mr. Game & Watch around 70%, meaning Ganondorf can kill Mr. Game & Watch from a Choke followup. Down tilt is also a viable killing option out of choke, but kills upwards instead of on the side, so Ganondorf needs to take into account stage boundaries. Jab is not a killing move out of choke, but could be used to swat away Mr. Game & Watch. Overall, this is not used as much as the previous two. Ganondorf can also take advantage of Mr. Game & Watch's slow rolls, meaning it is possible to run and Flame Choke again if Mr. Game & Watch rolls away, or even jump and down air if Mr. Game & Watch rolls behind.

Mr. Game & Watch has several tools to make his fight more bearable, however. First, Mr. Game & Watch has a low crouch that ducks under a large portion of Ganondorf's moves. Several moves that cannot hit are: neutral air, jab, reverse up air, down smash, forward smash (when not angled down), back air, grab, Wizard's Foot, and Warlock Punch. Ganondorf struggles when he gets grabbed by Mr. Game & Watch, as a down throw can lead to a quick up tilt or neutral air, which can rack up damage very quickly. Mr. Game & Watch also has access to a jab with quick startup, as well as a 6-frame startup grab, which can lead to the deadly juggling game Ganondorf will have to play.

When Ganondorf knocks Mr. Game & Watch into the air, be wary of the down air. It beats all Ganondorf's aerials, but comes with landing lag. Be sure not to overextend Ganon's reign of terror, or you may easily lose the momentum you worked so hard to get.

Lastly, Mr. Game & Watch can easily gimp Ganondorf's lackluster recovery, meaning Ganon mains need to be very cautious when recovering back up onto the stage. It doesn't help that ledge-snap mechanics make frame 1 vulnerable, as Mr. Game & Watch's dash attack can hit under the stage, but hugging the stage so the Up-B uppercut goes through can swat him away. Mix up the recovery game to keep your foe guessing!

Custom moves play a big part into this matchup, as Ganondorf gets additional killing options.

-Warlock Blade is a good move for stage control. Despite its long startup, its wider space and shield damage mechanics near the tip makes it a better alternative than the default. It is a great counter to Chef.

-Dark Fists has super armor at the first fist which is great if you want to trade hits. Because the first hit will usually lead to the second, which kills at very low percents, Ganondorf can very easily close stocks easily. This is also a great move while recovering since the second hit will usually send Mr. Game & Watch attempting to gimp further away so recovering will be easier. The only drawback to this move is the slower startup, but for another KO option that can not only kill earlier, but also be a good Out of Shield option, Dark Fists is a good custom to consider.

-Wizard's DropKick is an additional recovery method to prevent us from getting gimped. It is a good mobility option and counters Short-Order Chef, since the projectiles don't go nearly as high, meaning DropKick will go right through it. However, it can lose to regular Chef though.

Summary of the Matchup: Overall, Ganondorf is really powerful on the ground, whereas Mr. Game & Watch is great at juggling Ganondorf. In order to win, Ganondorf should do whatever he can to stay close to the ground and prevent Mr. Game & Watch from being below him. Stages like Battlefield help this exponentially. Ganon should do his best to play defensively and space moves carefully to avoid getting grabbed or juggled by Mr. Game & Watch. Moves like aerial Flame Choke are great to trap Mr. Game & Watch to the ground and set up for other potential moves.

Most of Ganondorf's primary killing moves are tilts and smashes. This means he should forcing Mr. Game & Watch to stay grounded. Flame Choke is an excellent move for that. If Mr. Game & Watch fails to tech it, he can lose a stock as early as 70%, meaning Ganondorf only needs a small number of moves to reach killing capacity. Combined with rage, Ganondorf can kill even earlier.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 60-40

Ratio of the Matchup: 55-45

Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG @ HeavyLobster @ Ray_Kalm @ Xinc @ Opana @ JmacAttack @ TriTails @ jahkzheng @GhostPikmin @ BBC7 @Vermanubis @Kofu @ Blobface

Next week, we will be discussing WARIO

 

[JmacAttack]

Wait stuff does less damage in training because of fresh/stale moves? I know D-air and most of Ganon's smash attacks usually do 1 more % in normal play than they do in training.

Let me explain.

It's not that things do less damage in training mode, because they don't, it's that everything automatically does base damage in training mode. Normally, the more you use the same attack, the weaker it gets. It gets "stale". Sure, the first time you use an attack, it's 5% stronger than it is in training mode, but every time afterward, it's weaker than it is in training mode. The reason it seems like Smash attacks and aerials are all doing 1% extra damage outside of training mode is because you're using those moves when they're fresh. Training mode ignores this, as well as rage, and has everything do its base values.

However, the game only keeps track of the last 10 hits that landed, including pummels, and it resets when you die, so it's not like things just get perpetually weaker. Just make sure you don't stale your kill moves.

As for Wario... this is such a rare matchup that I never get to practice it. I know Wario's bike is one of his B&Bs, and that Fsmash definitely wrecks right through it, but I don't know too much about what, precisely, beats out that move. Not enough experience to discuss it, sadly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

We definitely have the advantage vs Wario. I'd say 55/45, maybe 6/4 our favor default settings. It's one of Ganon's most favorable matchups overall.

Wario really just doesn't have a good answer to Ganon's N-air, U-air, and D-tilt. You can punish Bike out of shield with aerials. Don't worry about Bite except during edge trap situations. Your aerials will beat it easily. All the usual Flame Choke followups work on him too. Main thing to respect are Waft and U-smash KOs, but he doesn't do great gimping Ganon overall. This matchup is generally pretty simple. Play defensively and focus on pressuring him with superior spacing. When you need kills, condition him into Flame Choke or juggle him after D-throw.

 

[Blobface]

I also don't have much experience with Wario, but at a first glance:
(from now on, I'll always be using my Character-Face-Bullet-Points™.)

We out-range Wario quite a bit, and unlike characters like mario, he doesn't really have the attack speed to make up for it.
Previously mentioned slow attack speed makes punishing Wario's mistakes easy.
All missed-tech Flame Choke followups work (not sure how good/bad wario's techrolls are, haven't tested).

Wario is fat. (weight 104)
THAT AIRSPEED. Wario may have stubby arms and legs, but his ability to weave in and out with SH aerials combined with Bite to prevent you from shielding too much are a pain.
Good recovery, which allows him to go fairly deep for edgeguard's too. (Not quite sure how Corkscrew/Aerial Bike fare against Ganon's aerials, needs testing.)
With Waft, F-Smash, and (maybe) some very good edgeguarding, Wario is above-average at getting kills on Ganon.

That's all I can guess for now.

Things we should figure out

• How good is Wario and edguarding us?
• How good are we at edgeguarding Wario?
• What moves beat Bite/Bike?
• How good is Wario in disadvantage against us?

 

[TriTails]

Wario is vunerable during Wario Bike. I have Weegee Cyclone'd him out of it multiple times. So.... aerials beat it?

ERESPID! HIS ****ING ERESPID! What. A fat, stubby plumber manages to get that airspeed despite having a recovery that ignores airspeed (Bike and Corckscrew)? God, why the hell...

Though, he doesn't have good range. My matches against Wario is all about 'Destroy the Bike, don't let him eat things, dodge the Waft' as Luigi. So I'm sure Ganon with his abnormal damage output has no problem destroying Bike. It has like... 14%-17% HP? A well timed F-smash or U-smash should make it go boom.

His aerials are surprsingingly good though. I'd watch my back.

 

[JmacAttack]

Things we should figure out

• How good is Wario and edguarding us?
• How good are we at edgeguarding Wario?
• What moves beat Bite/Bike?
• How good is Wario in disadvantage against us?

You ask the right questions.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think I already answered most of those questions in low detail. To be more specific:

Wario can't really edgeguard Ganon with anything except Bike and Fart, which are both often predictable. Ganon can U-air through most of what Wario can do otherwise. Just be careful of Wario's edge trap with Bite (you need to edgeroll or carefully U-air it) and you'll be fine offstage.

Ganon doesn't really edgeguard Wario that consistently given Wario can mix up his options with Bike, however if you get a good read with U-air or N-air, you can very safely cover a lot of Wario's options and harass him offstage. If he does not have a Bike to recover with this is usually a free kill because his Up-B is really bad.

Just attack when Wario does Bite. He has no grab armor, so the trade is always in your favor. Don't worry about doing anything gimmicky to wall Wario's Bite, just spacing correctly does the job. Bike can often be punished with N-air/U-air out of shield, or SH N-air as he starts it.

We can juggle Wario pretty easily given he has no aerials that can contest Ganon's U-air or really protect him as he descends, which allows us to trap his airdodge. D-throw reads are very strong on him too.

This matchup as I said is very clearly in Ganon's favor. This is good news, because Wario is considered strong competitively, and we are a good counterpick to him.

 

[jahkzheng]

@ Xinc

So I guess we'll actually do Bowser Jr. next next?~


About Wario. I know very little about the matchup as usual. I can say that I've dair spiked a Wario out of his fart once. The hitbox on his head when he's flying up doesn't clash with dair.

 

[Xinc]

@ Xinc

So I guess we'll actually do Bowser Jr. next next?~


About Wario. I know very little about the matchup as usual. I can say that I've dair spiked a Wario out of his fart once. The hitbox on his head when he's flying up doesn't clash with dair.

Ye, reverse order. I figure it would make more sense.

 

[Opana]

I've played a very skilled Wario, although not too recently but enough to give a good opinion I think.

From my experience, it will be somewhat a game of cat and mouse, where Wario is weaving in and out as we give chase. His Bike aids this nicely, as well as his amazing air speed. His Chomp command grab is very effective at halting Ganon from my experience, the usual approaches aren't as effective imo due to this. Chomp also has gimp potential in the form of a cide or just a catch-all move as we return. In theory he should juggle as well, but I feel he was much more effective keeping his distance and striking at the right times, similarly to us but executed differently.

Honestly, if you can react ideally in moments where he may use Chomp, then your only other worry is just getting in while receiving as little damage as you can. This isn't too rough imo, the majority of our moveset has the range advantage. I feel this MU will be a bit more read-oriented than the average match in an attempt to catch him, but once we do we can press our advantage fairly well.

Something I've incorporated into my game that has been fantastic is a run off ledge grab, not for trumps but ledge jumps. I feel this will help punish Bike hops to recover above, as well as our ability to mix up on the ledge or chase. Ledge hop into a fast fallen Nair has worked wonders for me against many characters recently and I feel this will be effective in stopping corkscrew. Essentially, using the ledge as a base of operations.

 

[Xinc]

I just played a few really good matches against Wario that forced me to play Marth; the fact is Wario's air mobility is really good and you want to force him on the ground. Chomp does stop Ganon from achieving momentum. Wario's great air game allows him to space really well (and also end up behind Ganondorf to punish him), but he's still victim to choke shenanigans. All in all, choke->ftilt (no tech) is probably the best killing option. Getting below Wario is also a good option since up air out spaces down air.

 

[Z1GMA]

We generally have better reach, power, and prio, especially in aerial combat.

Gerudo Tech Chasing is amazing and very easy in this MU, even if Wario Techs it.
A good example of this is the last kill here:

Wario's faster, has a better grab-game, and is better at pressuring our shield than vice versa, and a smart Wario can be really tricky with his chomps.

The fact that we can't Grab Release him > anything anylonger, is a price we all gladly pay in exchange for him not beeing able to Chain Grab us from 0 to Death-%, like in Brawl.

Overall it's pretty even, slightly in Ganon's favour.

55 - 45

 

[A2ZOMG]

We generally have better reach, power, and prio, especially in aerial combat.

Gerudo Tech Chasing is amazing and very easy in this MU, even if Wario Techs it.
A good example of this is the last kill here:

Wario's faster, has a better grab-game, and is better at pressuring our shield than vice versa, and a smart Wario can be really tricky with his chomps.

The fact that we can't Grab Release him > anything anylonger, is a price we all gladly pay in exchange for him not beeing able to Chain Grab us from 0 to Death-%, like in Brawl.

Overall it's pretty even, slightly in Ganon's favour.

55 - 45

Z1G, do you tech chase on reaction?

 

[Z1GMA]

Z1G, do you tech chase on reaction?

Yes, against some characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes, against some characters.

I don't consider myself bad at techchasing, but I'm usually not very confident with trying to react to getups in favor of maximizing hard reads. Interesting to hear from you that reaction techchasing is a thing against some characters, I'll definitely think about that.

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't consider myself bad at techchasing, but I'm usually not very confident with trying to react to getups in favor of maximizing hard reads. Interesting to hear from you that reaction techchasing is a thing against some characters, I'll definitely think about that.

Ye, in Brawl we hunted this dream, but it was uncatchable (is that even a word?), but now in smash 4 it feels like it's not AS impossible.

Ppl can Tech, and GUAs deal more damage to Ganon's shied, yet it feels like it has more potantial here.

 

[Blobface]

Yeah this matchup is definitely in Ganon's favor. Ganon outranges Wario so much that Wario's superior mobility is a non-issue, Wario's recovery doesn't fare very well against Ganon's fat hitboxes, and Wario's fairly vulnerable to Flame Choke (sub-par techrolls and all followups work). However, it is very important to have good spacing in this matchup. If you don't space and properly abuse Ganon's range advantage, Wario will float circles around you.

On a side note, I messed around with Ganon vs Wario's Bite and found a few interesting things.

• Flame Choke does not beat Bite, Wizards Foot does.
• F-tilt should never be used against Bite. Ganon's leg is fully extended before the hitbox comes out, causing Bite to connect before F-tilt.
• Grab armor is no longer present, meaning that Ganondorf will go into grab release upon trading with a grab. When Ganondorf trades with Bite, his release animation is almost always shorter than the endlag of the actual attack, giving him a frame advantage.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wario is a small character and takes a longer time hitting the ground after choke, this allows a bigger opportunity to follow up with a decision.

 

[Blobface]

Who's the next character we're doing? I've pretty much said everything I want to say about this matchup, and I'd like to SCIENCE it up with the next character before we start discussing it. It's Bowser Jr. right?

 

[BBC7]

This may be a bit late, but I just realized that the G&W write-up states that failing to tech a Flame Choke can lead to a kill at 70% even without rage. If it's referring to D-Tilt, that's a crazy exaggeration since I don't even think it kills at 100% with rage. If a stronger move can connect after a failed tech, that makes more sense.

 

[Blobface]

This may be a bit late, but I just realized that the G&W write-up states that failing to tech a Flame Choke can lead to a kill at 70% even without rage. If it's referring to D-Tilt, that's a crazy exaggeration since I don't even think it kills at 100% with rage. If a stronger move can connect after a failed tech, that makes more sense.

F-tilt kills much earlier than D-Tilt. D-tilt is an excellent move, but it's not his best kill move.

 

[JmacAttack]

This may be a bit late, but I just realized that the G&W write-up states that failing to tech a Flame Choke can lead to a kill at 70% even without rage. If it's referring to D-Tilt, that's a crazy exaggeration since I don't even think it kills at 100% with rage. If a stronger move can connect after a failed tech, that makes more sense.

It's no exaggeration. I killed a Game and Watch near the ledge on FD with an F-tilt followup out of a choke at 70%, and since I was only at 70% myself, rage was barely a factor. I looked at my own percent because it shocked me. I thought I'd had massive rage, but no.

Since Game and Watch can get hit by anything out of a choke setup, he gets massacred if he fails to tech it. Down-tilt doesn't kill before 100 on anyone, not even Jigglypuff, but we're not talking about Down-tilt.

 

[BBC7]

Well, thanks for not criticizing my lack of knowledge on Flame Choke follow-ups. Although the ledge is really anyone's game because Ganondorf has disgusting F-Tilt's while Game & Watch has great edgeguarding. It's the old rule of "don't get hit". Enough about G&W though, let's talk Bowser Jr.

I'm not a Ganondorf main but something tells me that Bowser Jr's projectile game isn't as threatening as say, Duck Hunt or Mega Man because the projectiles are much laggier. I really can't say if any other aspects are threatening or not.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser Jr is tricky. He forces Ganon to not rely on his normal midrange advantages in this matchup if he plays correctly between his high mobility, strong disjoints, and zoning followups from Mechakoopa. He also has a lot of mobility in the air, which makes him tricky to juggle. Knowing how to punish Kart is important. It is basically the same as Sonic's spindash, so you need to carefully judge how far away you are from Jr, whether you have enough space to N-air or Wizkick him out of it, or shield and try to predict whether he will do aerials after it or go past you.

Ganon however does have a decent edgeguard game vs Jr, especially if he recovers low. It's pretty easy to punish Jr's Up-B on reaction with U-air. If he recovers high, you have to guess a bit more between his Kart mixups.

Wizkick can go over Mechakoopas for a quick punish if you see him committing too much to setting them up in midrange. Picking them up is important, but be especially careful when getting up from the ledge against Jr. Jr can control a lot of options with Mechakoopa and U-smash. Also if he hits you with a Mechakoopa offstage, you will very likely not survive.

After playing @V1cegrip, I believe Jr has the advantage 55/45 against Ganon. Ganon can keep up with Jr with his raw power while he holds his ground on stage, but Jr can capitalize on Ganon's limited ledge options very well and forces Ganon to guess a lot in neutral.

 

[Z1GMA]

Wario is a small character and takes a longer time hitting the ground after choke, this allows a bigger opportunity to follow up with a decision.

His tech-animation is also very laggy compared to most other characters'.

 

[adom4]

Bowser Jr is tricky. He forces Ganon to not rely on his normal midrange advantages in this matchup if he plays correctly between his high mobility, strong disjoints, and zoning followups from Mechakoopa. He also has a lot of mobility in the air, which makes him tricky to juggle. Knowing how to punish Kart is important. It is basically the same as Sonic's spindash, so you need to carefully judge how far away you are from Jr, whether you have enough space to N-air or Wizkick him out of it, or shield and try to predict whether he will do aerials after it or go past you.

Ganon however does have a decent edgeguard game vs Jr, especially if he recovers low. It's pretty easy to punish Jr's Up-B on reaction with U-air. If he recovers high, you have to guess a bit more between his Kart mixups.

Wizkick can go over Mechakoopas for a quick punish if you see him committing too much to setting them up in midrange. Picking them up is important, but be especially careful when getting up from the ledge against Jr. Jr can control a lot of options with Mechakoopa and U-smash. Also if he hits you with a Mechakoopa offstage, you will very likely not survive.

After playing @V1cegrip, I believe Jr has the advantage 55/45 against Ganon. Ganon can keep up with Jr with his raw power while he holds his ground on stage, but Jr can capitalize on Ganon's limited ledge options very well and forces Ganon to guess a lot in neutral.

Just want to add that wizard dropkick helps a lot in this matchup, Dorf might even have a small advantage with custom moves.

 

[Xinc]

F-tilt kills much earlier than D-Tilt. D-tilt is an excellent move, but it's not his best kill move.

I think this is as much as input as we'll get from Wario. I've requested input from the supporters of the Obese One, but I have yet to receive any responses.

Please feel free to start analyzing Bowser Jr. while I start writing on Wario.

 

[Blobface]

First impressions. I mainly just messed around with stuff in training, and haven't ever fought an actually good Bowser Jr. player.

Is fat even when you take the damage multiplier into account, and his good recovery will make it a pain for him to edgeguard. Overall, he won't die nearly as early as other characters
F-air is big, disjointed, and lasts a long time. Bowser Jr. might have a good disadvantage
U-air will usually hit the clown car and do reduced damage, N-air will too sometimes

Range. This is another matchup where Ganon can kick the other character from 5 miles away without much trouble.
BJR Can't kill us worth crap. As far as I can tell, his only options to kill us are Up-b gimp (blocked by dark fists), Up-b Hammer (telegraphed), and Side Smash (which is low range and slow).
BJR's projectiles are too slow and gimmicky to bother Ganon that much. They aren't safe at all, and if a projectile isn't safe, Ganon doesn't give a crap.
BJR's Tech Rolls are meh. They're not horrible, but combined with the fact that BJR already gets two follow ups (D-tilt and F-tilt), Flame Choke is a pain for BJR
Most (pretty much anything besides the ones mentioned above) of Ganon's fat hitboxes will always hit BJR's weakspot and deal extra damage. Also, reversing U-air brings it down on his head and does extra damage.
Flame Choke to F/D-tilt does 28 damage because ShenaniGanon

Overall, it seems either even or in Ganon's favor, but it'll probably take a lot longer than other characters just because of how hard it is to kill Bowser Jr.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Jr. vs Ganon feels like another momentum-based matchup. Jr's projectiles aren't overwhelming in neutral but good for landing traps, and his disjoints and damage racking are really good, especially against Ganon. I have a tough time resetting to neutral as Ganon vs Jr, but Jr does have trouble getting the kill. On the other hand, Jr doesn't like it when Ganon has the upper hand either, and while Jr might have an easier time resetting than Ganon, it still isn't all that easy, and Ganon is better at closing stocks. Overall it feels even, and this is one of those MUs where anything can happen because of how volatile it is. Jr is really susceptible to Ganon's punishes, while Ganon is vulnerable to Jr's traps.

 

[Xinc]

This may be a bit late, but I just realized that the G&W write-up states that failing to tech a Flame Choke can lead to a kill at 70% even without rage. If it's referring to D-Tilt, that's a crazy exaggeration since I don't even think it kills at 100% with rage. If a stronger move can connect after a failed tech, that makes more sense.

It is F-tilt. I probably should have been more specific.

Finishing Wario might be done around Wednesday to Friday evening. Heads up.

I'll get to my Bowser Jr. writing once I finish Wario or have free time. Until then, I'll petition the Bowser Jr. board for their take soon.

 

[JmacAttack]

Well, thanks for not criticizing my lack of knowledge on Flame Choke follow-ups. Although the ledge is really anyone's game because Ganondorf has disgusting F-Tilt's while Game & Watch has great edgeguarding. It's the old rule of "don't get hit". Enough about G&W though, let's talk Bowser Jr.

I'm not a Ganondorf main but something tells me that Bowser Jr's projectile game isn't as threatening as say, Duck Hunt or Mega Man because the projectiles are much laggier. I really can't say if any other aspects are threatening or not.

You'd be correct. Junior's default projectiles are either slow and easily avoidable with high endlag, or items that Ganon can pick up and throw back. I think the matchup is even, because while Junior isn't lethal if you don't get hit, you have to respect Junior's disjoints. His attacks aren't dangerous if shielded, but they will demolish you if you challenge them. Kart is like a Spindash that's easier to punish because Junior is massive. You can fullhop dair if he doesn't jump, up-air if he does, or even F-smash him if he attempts to jump out of it into an attack. His up-B is a kill setup if it hits you at mid-high percent, so don't commit to overly laggy options when you're nearing kill range. Junior's jab is not that good, and so unsafe on shield that you can roll behind him in the middle of it and punish it with whatever. But if it hits, it can be annoying. Ganon gets good followups out of Flame Choke even if teched, though landing it can be tricky through all his disjoints. Still, Junior has a lot of laggy moves, moreso than Ganondorf, so choke can be used as a punish tool.

With customs, Junior doesn't gain anything Ganon isn't used to, but Ganon gains new ways of approaching, punishing, and killing. Junior's windbox cannon is counteracted by Ganon's new recovery options, and is really bad at stopping Ganon from approaching, so it's not a good option in this matchup. Impatient Mechakoopa can make approaches annoying, but at least none of his sets contain both that and Meteor Ejection. Meteor Ejection is easy to avoid, but dangerous if it hits offstage.

No idea where to put the ratio, but in customs-off meta, I faced a good Bowser Jr in friendlies, and I never defeated him -- HOWEVER! His best friend was Matt Hazard, a prominent Ganon main who likewise never lost a single match to him, and one time even beautifully styled on him in-tournament. Given that they are friends, doubles partners even, it is likely they play a lot, and thus they both know the matchups well. I'd put it in Ganon's favor - slightly.

Also, I've faced a few Warios since last time I posted. I've found what you guys were saying to be correct, his air mobility is an issue, but his lack of range and poor tech options when getting Flame Choked makes him Ganon fodder. Literally any tech still results in him getting hit. Bike is easily defeated as long as it's respected, and if it's not destroyed when he uses it, his recovery is massively nerfed. Easy to edgeguard even with bike. Had guys who were kicking my ass switch to Wario and proceed to never defeat me again. Not sure where to put the ratio, but it's definitely favorable. 60:40 might even be it, but I know I have a habit of over-stating Ganon's advantages. Slightly. Maybe.

This IS good news for us, because the JP tier list has Wario as a top tier, and there are many prominent Wario mains on the west coast who do well in the face of other top tiers, and while their Bike usage is mastered, once again, Bike is easily defeated by Ganon. We can legitimately one-shot the bike with Wario still on it with down-air or F-smash.

 

[Xinc]

Alright, apologies on how long it's taking the Wario matchup. I had to do some changes in my grad school thesis so that unfortunately took priority. Almost done though!

 

[Xinc]

Character Description: Wario (ワリオ) is a fictional character in Nintendo's Mario series who was designed as an antagonist to Mario. He first appeared in the 1992 Game Boy title Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins as the main antagonist and final boss. Originally portrayed as an exaggerated version of Mario, his name is a combination of Mario's name and the Japanese word warui (悪い), meaning "bad". Wario was first designed by Hiroji Kiyotake, and is voiced by Charles Martinet, who also voices many other characters in the series.

Since his debut, Wario has become the protagonist and antihero of the Wario Land and WarioWare series, spanning handheld and console markets. In addition to appearances in spin-offs in the Mario series, he appears in cameos for Kirby Super Star Ultra, Densetsu no Stafy 3 and Pilotwings 64. He has also been featured in other media such as the Super Mario Adventures graphic novel. The character has received a largely positive critical reception and has emerged as a well-established mascot for Nintendo.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Wario is a character with a wide hitbox. The choke, if untouched, will lead to jab, down tilt, and forward tilt. Wario is fairly heavy and has a fair horizontal recovery with his bike, so down tilt at higher percents will seal the stock.

He's also a fairly small character, which means he takes a longer time to hit the ground. This allows for a bigger opportunity to follow up upon reaction. His tech animation has a lot of lag, meaning it is easy to punish Wario out of choke, even if he techs. Tech back roll could lead to another choke or down air, while tech away could be punished by Wizard's Foot or run forward Flame Choke.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Wario's bike is his only projectile. Unfortunately, when he throws it at you, it's a big thing, so it will do a fair amount of damage, but that's not compared to the trouble Ganon faces when Wario hits Ganon while he's on the bike. But Ganondorf has several answers to this. The bike isn't that fast, so it's punishable with a Out of Shield Up Air or Neutral Air. This works and can break the bike, even if Wario is on it.

Understanding the Matchup:

Wario has a great air game, attributed to his faster air speed and low-lag aerials. His forward aerial and neutral air are very good spacing and poking tools that knocks the opponent back, as well as his back air (though that is lesser used). His down air is reliable for punishing when Ganondorf gets past his forward aerial wall, but can be shield grabbed. Wario's up air is a fairly good juggling move. It lost some kill power from Brawl, but good at keeping his opponent above. Considering Ganon's weight, being above Wario is not an ideal situation.

However, a large majority of Ganondorf's moves outranges Wario's stubby limbs. His neutral air and up air are excellent answers to Wario's forward aerial wall, neutral air, and back air. Down tilt is a wonderful spacing tool, as is forward tilt. These moves are great in the neutral, as it allows Ganon to gain momentum by knocking Wario off balance. Forward tilt is a bit more dangerous, however. Wario's bite goes through Forward Tilt, meaning Ganondorf will end up in Wario's mouth if he forward tilts, as the hitbox in forward tilt doesn't come out until Ganon's foot is extended.

Wario's bite is a command grab that pummels his opponent before the opponent escapes. Though risky, it can also be used as a suicide move off-stage at higher percents, as the opponent cannot escape as easily. As Ganondorf, this usually shouldn't happen, as up air below Wario goes through bite. On-stage, down tilt and Wizard's kick beat Bite. If Ganondorf trades with Wario's Bite, his release animation is shorter than Wario's, thus giving him a frame advantage.

Flame Choke is a very devastating move against Wario, due to Wario's slow tech and susceptibility to jab, down tilt, and forward tilt when he fails to tech the Flame Choke. This means Ganondorf can very easily gain the advantage when he successfully Flame Chokes, and even seal the stock. Though less common due to Wario's walling ability, aerial Flame Choke is also a powerful option. Because Wario has a laggy tech roll, it is not difficult to punish Wario's next move on reaction.

Do not be deceived by Wario's good air game, which may make him seem light. Wario has a weight of 104 (he's pretty heavy), so he doesn't die off the top until higher percents. Also, due to his bike recovery properties, it is also difficult to kill on the sides. That being said, it is fairly difficult to kill Wario early, though a Wario without a motorcycle is far easier to gimp than a Wario with a motorcycle. By leaving the motorcycle away from Wario and not letting him break it or eat it, Wario will suffer immensely in recovering. A forward throw or down throw will easily isolate Wario from his bike, if it's onstage. Down Throw can lead to a string of up airs at lower percents, racking up Wario's percent to very dangerous numbers.

Similarly, Wario has a bit of difficulty killing Ganondorf as well. Despite that he has a good recovery game, which enables him to go deep for edge guards, he can't edge guard other than bike and Waft. In neutral, his smash attacks have a high amount of startup lag and cool down, which makes it easy for Ganon to punish if whiffed.

Ganondorf can also juggle Wario quite mercilessly. Wario has no moves that can contest against Ganondorf's up air, and has no other options to protect himself other than Air Dodge, which is very punishable.

Be very wary of the Waft. It doesn't have that much reach, but when fully charged, it is very deadly, capable of killing at lower percents near the edge of the stage. It's a good punish option on rolls, and when combined with bikes, which punishes on GUA and simple get ups, this can be quite difficult when you're on the ledge.

Ganondorf does have several good moves that can potentially kill Wario. Down tilt and forward tilt are great examples of moves that are versatile and have extended reach, which can knock Wario far back (forward tilt) or upwards (down tilt), and even seal stocks at higher percents. If Wario is enjoying his time in the air, an up smash can be a good killing option. Despite it having a bit of startup lag, up smash has IASA frames, which allows Ganondorf to safely retreat or try another shot against Wario if he evades the first up smash. Flame Choke is another great move that sets up to Wario's death. Out of Flame Choke, down tilt, forward tilt, and jab are possible to punish a lack of tech. However, down air to punish tech rolls or roll towards can also end a stock, as can several other methods.

Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits Wario at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting Wario's air game.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish juggle opportunities, and has giant knock back. It kills really early and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it mitigates Ganondorf's below average recovery. Second off, it can protect Ganondorf from juggles. It is also fairly decent at interrupting Wario's aerial game.

Short Summary of Matchup:

Wario has great air speed and low lag aerials, which means he'll be spending a lot of time in the air. In his arsenal, he has his aerials, as well as Bite, in the air. With these moves in his arsenal, Wario can put up a wall; aerials send opponents away from Wario, and Bite stops them to rack up damage before sending the opponent away. The crucial problem Wario has in the matchup against is that Ganon has far more range than Wario does. Every single one of Ganondorf's aerials (the safest being neutral air and up air) can safely outrange Wario's aerials, and even most, if not all, of Wario's moves. Other moves that easily outrange Wario's moves are: Forward Tilt (though it loses to Bite) and down tilt. In addition, a well-timed forward air or back air can also clash with Wario's aerials and help Ganondorf immensely. Wario also has a "safe" option in the form of the Bike. It is great at racking up damage against Ganondorf, but Wario himself is extremely vulnerable when he's on. Up air, Neutral air, and Forward Air can all easily dismount Wario from the bike. If Wario is above you, you want to stay at an advantageous angle below him in order to clip him with up air.

For the sake of your stock, also pay attention to Wario's Waft meter. If he starts glowing yellow, that means he is fully charged. Also, killing Wario doesn't refresh the meter. Being careful and staying away from the ledge will help your character survive far longer.

Wario is a fairly heavy character. This means it will be difficult to kill Wario early. Combined with access to the Bike, Wario will survive horizontally for a long time. However, without the bike, Wario's recovery becomes abysmal, as Corkscrew does not help much with horizontal recovery and has low vertical recovery. Isolating Wario from the Bike can help gain Ganon the momentum, and even the stock. The key move to racking up damage is Flame Choke, as Wario has a slow tech roll, allowing for easier tech roll reactions.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 60-40

Ratio of the Matchup: 55-45

Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG @ JmacAttack @ TriTails @ Blobface @ Opana @ Z1GMA @ Ray_Kalm

FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING BOWSER JR.

 

[Opana]

When I made my post, it was based off Magik's Wario. He's on that list of notable players, so I think he was a good basis for my summary.

I'll contribute to this discusion in a few days maybe.

XOXO Shaq

 

[JmacAttack]

Gotta admit, this is the funniest april fool's theme I've seen today.

Onto Bowser Jr... I think Ganon has a slight advantage, with a magnified advantage in Customs. Junior has options that Ganon must respect, as they are disjointed and will beat ours if we challenge them, but nearly all of them are very laggy and punishable, which as we all know is the area Ganondorf dominates in this game. Junior is huge, larger than Bowser, with more weight and defenses, but without Daddy's kill power.

He has projectiles, but not ones that Ganondorf has trouble with, and Wizard Dropkick still answers all of his customs. Junior has a windbox cannon, but since it doesn't turn Ganon around, it's of limited effectiveness in edgeguarding, because it must be charged, and at low charge, it barely even works on Ganon. Since it does no damage, it is a very poor option in the neutral, as Ganon can feel safe charging straight in and booting Junior in the throat, which many of you recognize as a very bad thing for Junior. Just don't use Flame Choke near a ledge if he runs this, as that can cause you to SD.

Many of his attacks, such as his side-B and his aerials, have massive blind spots that Ganon can exploit, as they generally only cover one direction. If he uses side-B at you from midair, or if he likes to side-B at you, then fake you out by doing a jumping aerial right before it hits you, either option is safely covered by angled-up F-smash, regardless of which aerial he chooses. This kills him below 100. If he has a habit of using side-B straight at you from the ground without jumping, a jump in place down-air answers that with a massive strike from above, hitting his weak spot for a very nice ~22%. You can F-smash to answer this, too, but the timing is much more strict.

Junior has poor tech options out of Flame Choke. He can make getting them difficult with his disjoints, but if you get one, he gets hit by everything, regardless of tech, and if he misses, the followup will nail his weak spot, further increasing the followup's power.

Respect the Dash Attack. It is fast, disjointed, and only slightly unsafe on shield. Punish with grab or a fast tilt.

Respect the Up-smash. It's disjointed even from the sides, where it will suck you into the sweetspot and nail you hard. Shields up for the duration into down-tilt is the only remotely safe option if he whiffs it, but since he does a handstand, this nails his weak point.

Respect the F-smash. Its last hit has MUCH longer range than the hits before it, and that last hit is deadly.

Respect the Down-Smash, but if he uses this on your shield, you've won the jackpot, because it is so laggy it can be answered with OOS F-smash.

 

[Xinc]

Paging everyone. I'm going to write it up soon, so if you have any last statements to add, please add them now.

 

[divade]

I fought a few gannons, and while i know I'm not a badass, I don't think they were good enough to get a worth while opinion.
I guess: D-tilt beats ganon's offstage choke.

 

[Xinc]

Alright, folks. Thanks. Work's been rough so I anticipate Friday or Saturday, and then we'll get to the next victim… ahem… character.