Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[A2ZOMG]

A quick nitpick myself, I would put the Peach match-up as 50:50 now instead of 45:55.

It was done before the patch, and going through the game, Peach is actually solidly even.

Peach vs Ganon this game resembles Falco vs Marth in brawl. Fun, and very very even on both sides.

I find the matchup difficult if they space F-air really well. It's about as powerful and possibly slightly more disjointed compared to Ganon's F-air while only being very slightly slower, but Peach has an advantage in edgeguarding Ganon unless you have Dark Fists.

Also like a few other characters, she is able to annoy Ganondorf with a fast (2 frame Jab) in close range. Other than that, I don't think it's a particularly awful matchup, but I feel like she is able to play a similar game to Ganon, but is less vulnerable to being edgeguarded. I think however we reclaim a lot of ground in this matchup by running Dark Fists which prevents many of her edgeguard KOs from being as effective and lets us abuse our weight more.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I find the matchup difficult if they space F-air really well. It's about as powerful and possibly slightly more disjointed compared to Ganon's F-air while only being very slightly slower, but Peach has an advantage in edgeguarding Ganon unless you have Dark Fists.

Also like a few other characters, she is able to annoy Ganondorf with a fast (2 frame Jab) in close range. Other than that, I don't think it's a particularly awful matchup, but I feel like she is able to play a similar game to Ganon, but is less vulnerable to being edgeguarded. I think however we reclaim a lot of ground in this matchup by running Dark Fists which prevents many of her edgeguard KOs from being as effective and lets us abuse our weight more.

Her fair becomes very predictable, the move feels like a two faced show. Looks good at first, but once you get use to it, it becomes quite easy to predict. The move is defined more with how the person behind Peach uses it.

Ganon makes up for a lot with heavy damage and early kills. If you just stay away from her hitboxes, getting a few hits and then a KO should not be too hard.

 

[jahkzheng]

A quick nitpick myself, I would put the Peach match-up as 50:50 now instead of 45:55.

It was done before the patch, and going through the game, Peach is actually solidly even.

Peach vs Ganon this game resembles Falco vs Marth in brawl. Fun, and very very even on both sides.

I'm curious if something in either characters' mechanics changed notably since the patch, enough so to change the matchup. Or maybe you've just gotten more used to the matchup since then and see now that it's more even regardless of any changes that were made. Sorry, but I admittedly don't remember what got changed on Ganon other than a bit faster nair, and I have no idea how Peach changed. Either way, the difference between 45:55 and 50:50 is pretty small and I'm certain it could feel one way or the other depending on the players even at the highest level.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

How long have we been discussing Rosalina anyway? This thread has been discussing her for more than a week now.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

We Ganondorfs are patient, for we must be patient.

 

[jahkzheng]

Think Xinc said he was making his final analysis a while back. Pretty sure we're still sitting around 70:30 in Rosa's favor on this one.

I know a few mentions of reassessing matchups has come up, specifically for Mario and Peach from what I've heard. I'm not sure what's changed or what we know now that we didn't before, but I've heard people wanting to reevaluate these all the same.

I suppose we could start discussing the Bowser Jr. matchup since I think we're moving left to right, top to bottom on the character select screen.

If so, I'll just say that I have very little to add to the Bowser Jr. matchup. Haven't had a chance to play many. I basically have just stuck to For Glory so my experience with most characters is very limited and based on matches with randoms. Most Jrs I've faced were in 2v2s too, for whatever reason.

I had more written about the matchup specifically here but I decided it wasn't anything truly insightful to anyone with a passing knowledge of Bowser Jr. I'll await a more educated assessment.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco met with a terrible fate, hasn't he?

Greetings, Kings and Queens of Evil, the Falco boards started their Ganondorf match up discussion. Feel free to drop in whenever you want; we have cookies: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-match-up-discussion-13-ganondorf-coveted-winds.393066/.

If only _Magus_ was here...

 

[Xinc]

Think Xinc said he was making his final analysis a while back. Pretty sure we're still sitting around 70:30 in Rosa's favor on this one.

I know a few mentions of reassessing matchups has come up, specifically for Mario and Peach from what I've heard. I'm not sure what's changed or what we know now that we didn't before, but I've heard people wanting to reevaluate these all the same.

I suppose we could start discussing the Bowser Jr. matchup since I think we're moving left to right, top to bottom on the character select screen.

If so, I'll just say that I have very little to add to the Bowser Jr. matchup. Haven't had a chance to play many. I basically have just stuck to For Glory so my experience with most characters is very limited and based on matches with randoms. Most Jrs I've faced were in 2v2s too, for whatever reason.

I had more written about the matchup specifically here but I decided it wasn't anything truly insightful to anyone with a passing knowledge of Bowser Jr. I'll await a more educated assessment.

Haha, I know. I know, I'm trying to speed everything up.

Falco met with a terrible fate, hasn't he?

Greetings, Kings and Queens of Evil, the Falco boards started their Ganondorf match up discussion. Feel free to drop in whenever you want; we have cookies: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-match-up-discussion-13-ganondorf-coveted-winds.393066/.

If only _Magus_ was here...

Wonderful. I'll fill in for @_Magus_ until the man returns if you want.

 

[Xinc]

Rosalina & Luma


Character Description: Rosalina (known as Rosetta (ロゼッタ Rozetta) in Japan) is a fictional character in the Mario franchise by Nintendo. She debuted in Super Mario Galaxy, where she acted as a major non-player character who resides in the Comet Observatory, the game's hub world. She is the adoptive mother of the Lumas, a fictional species in the game, and also watcher of the cosmos. In the game's storyline, the Comet Observatory was attacked by Bowser, leaving her stranded in space without a source of power. In return for Mario's help in collecting Power Stars and repowering the Observatory, Rosalina agrees to help Mario rescue Princess Peach, whom Bowser had kidnapped.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): Rosalina is not susceptible to any Gerudo followups. This is one of the few match ups in which Flame Choke is one of the worst possible moves, especially when Luma isn't separated from Rosalina, as Luma can hit Ganondorf away to keep Rosalina safe.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Luma is her projectile. Because Luma acts like an additional wall of defense, it is vital to strip Rosalina of that defense. Rosalina can send out Luma as a projectile (which has the potential to kill at higher percents). Sending out Luma will also prompt Rosalina to call it back, which does have some lag, making it punishable. Similarly, Star Bits (side B) has noticeable end lag, which can be punished, despite the smaller window.

To get rid of Luma for 13 seconds before another spawns, Ganondorf should manage center stage control, which will make it easier to bait out Luma and knock her off the stage. Mainly, in order to win this matchup, Ganondorf must be prepared to defeat Luma and afford to take on Rosalina with aggression but be careful enough to avoid excessive punishment.

Understanding the Matchup:

Inherently, Rosalina is a defensive character who relies on the placement of Luma to dish out damage to opponents. Rosalina, unlike the Ice Climbers, spawns Luma every 13 seconds upon Luma's death, meaning Rosalina can afford to camp Ganondorf until the 13 seconds are up and a new Luma is born. This means Ganondorf is forced to play aggressive against Rosalina, which is a problem considering Ganondorf's below-stellar approach game, sluggish run speed, and size. Ganondorf has a strict timeframe to get past Rosalina's defenses and strike, which gives Ganondorf something to worry about.

As a defensive character, Rosalina has a decent grab range, a good projectile (Luma) that acts as an extension of herself, long-lasting aerials, a disjointed up air and down air, which means she can juggle (up air) and gimp (down air) easily. Luma prevents the majority of Ganondorf's approach options, nullifies his Flame Choke, and makes his Wizard's Foot risky.

Rosalina's grabs are amongst the most disastrous for Ganondorf. Because he's heavy, Rosalina can easily juggle him with up airs from a single grab. Not only that, but if Rosalina takes Ganondorf off stage, she can easily gimp him. Ganondorf has a below-stellar recovery, while Rosalina has a great recovery.

However, Ganondorf can also take advantage of bypassing Rosalina's defenses even if Luma is on the stage. This is done through trading hits (hitting the Luma), which will usually result in Ganondorf being punished, but separating Luma from Rosalina. Key moves to separate the two are: throws (especially forward throw), Wizard's Foot, Ftilt, dtilt, and nair. Ganondorf can also take advantage of Rosalina's recall of Luma, which although has a hitbox, also has lag. The lag is the key component for Ganondorf to gain momentum of the match and possibly knock Rosalina off stage.

In this matchup, control of center stage is vital. Rosalina wants to gain control of this area in order to mitigate any potential Luma losses. If she gains control of the center stage, Luma will be less likely to be hit by a strong move and fall off the stage. To win this matchup, Ganondorf thrives off reads, baiting, and poking. Side tilt and down tilt are excellent poking tools with long range and low cool down that separate Rosalina and Luma.

In the air, Ganondorf's neutral air and up air can potentially give Rosalina a hard time especially juggle her due to her abysmal air speed, but her aerials last a long period of time, which make them difficult to punish. She has good aerial pressure, having moves that linger and can pressure Ganondorf, meaning Ganondorf should be aware of Rosalina's options and take in her options when juggling her.

Off-stage, Rosalina has a good recovery that reaches a long distance, and can be angled in many different ways. However, a well-timed up air will swat Rosalina away reliably. On the converse, Ganondorf should recover low in an attempt to avoid her down air.

Bear in mind, Ganondorf is a heavy character, meaning he can take many hits on stage and survive. In this matchup, Ganondorf needs to carefully take that into consideration and trade moves wisely. He must be aggressive in order to win this matchup. Rosalina, on the other hand, is a very light character. One strong attack and she will have trouble recomposing herself. However, the biggest issue is to bypass Luma. To win, Ganondorf must take any and all openings Rosalina leaves and punish her with all his might. Rosalina should not be surviving above 100%, as a rogue smash attack will kill her.

Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits Rosalina at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control.

Flame Chain: As Flame Choke is weakened through Luma's presence, it is far simpler to use a multi-hitting attack to separate Rosalina from Luma.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish juggle opportunities, and has giant knock back. It kills really early and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it mitigates Ganondorf's below average recovery. Second off, it can protect Ganondorf from juggles. The grounded version can even bypass Luma and put Ganondorf in a positive position.


Short Summary of Matchup:

The purpose of the matchup is to eliminate Luma or separate her from it as long as possible while dealing out your damage. This is truly a disadvantage for Ganon, especially with the Luma on standby. Ganondorf has several moves, namely short hop neutral air, down tilt, and Wizard's Foot, that can poke, and even hit both Rosalina and Luma.

Poking is vital to this matchup, as Ganondorf cannot afford to give Rosalina too many opportunities to punish him, since Rosalina has a good juggle game, as well as a gimp game. Poking Rosalina becomes easier due to her tall body structure. If landing a solid hit on her, Ganondorf can easily kill Rosalina due to her being a light character.

That being said, in the air, Ganon needs to be careful of Rosalina's nair, fair, and dair have long lasting hitboxes. He needs to play safely and not get punished too much, but at the same time, separate Rosalina from Luma. One reliable way to do that is with the Wizard's Foot, but it requires trading with a shield grab.

Ganondorf also has a good gimping game against Rosalina as she does against him. Whereas Rosalina's down air gives Ganondorf a hard time, if Ganondorf gets Rosalina off stage, a well timed up air will intercept her recovery.

Worthwhile custom moves to consider in this matchup are: Warlock Blade (2-neutral), Flame Chain (3-side), and Wizard's DropKick (2-down)

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 33:67

Ratio of the Matchup: 33:67

Thanks to: @ Opana @Shmeckie @ Vermanubis @ A2ZOMG @ JmacAttack @the king of murder @_Magus_ @Drexel @Z1GMA @ Ray_Kalm @MagiusNecros @Zonderion @ Mario & Sonic Guy @Claire Diviner @ jahkzheng @MezzoMe @ Xinc

FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING Mr. Game & Watch!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs G&W I think is probably 50/50.

Offensively, he's a train wreck on Ganon. He has a lot of juggle combos on Ganon that do massive damage, and he's one of the better characters at edgeguarding Ganon with all of his disjointed aerials. Defensively though, he dies in about five hits and Ganon outranges him.

Ray_Kalm advocates a certain defensive playstyle where you go for single hits and fall back in some matchups. This is one of those matchups where you most obviously benefit from it. It doesn't take much to actually KO G&W, but you don't want to leave yourself really open. Focus on letting him move first ideally and then punish with F-air/D-tilt/Flame Choke as applicable. As long as you don't unnecessarily let him put you offstage, this is a pretty fair matchup for Ganon.

With Customs and Dark Fists though the matchup is probably 55/45 Ganon's favor which gives you a much better chance of getting around G&W's deep edgeguards, while probably killing him if he commits too hard. Even though G&W has some decent customs, none of them really swing his odds against Ganondorf imo.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Agree completely about being patient and defensive against G&W. In general I've found it best not to go offstage aggressively much at all, as his Up-B is really good and tough to gimp. You don't need to edgeguard to kill him, though sometimes throwing out a U-tilt can catch him. Overall you should be patient, as G&W's approach options are shaky, but challenging his disjoints directly tends to end badly. I tend to go aggro when I smell blood, but this approach tends to backfire against G&W, as he's got good options when disadvantaged and punishes you for overcommitting. If you can be patient and get him to overextend instead he dies in 4-5 hits, so try to bait out his aerials and punish them instead of challenging him directly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I would say that the CM ratio of the Rosalina match up is more closer than 35:65. Ganon has secured kill options, flame chain or wave, and ways to improve recovery and get around things.

I'd put it about 45:55, with Customs.

Btw, @ Xinc , did you knowingly skip Bowser Junior and Wario, or was that a mistake?

 

[Xinc]

I would say that the CM ratio of the Rosalina match up is more closer than 35:65. Ganon has secured kill options, flame chain or wave, and ways to improve recovery and get around things.

I'd put it about 45:55, with Customs.

Btw, @ Xinc , did you knowingly skip Bowser Junior and Wario, or was that a mistake?

That moment when you accidentally switch them. That was totally my mistake. Bowser Jr. will be next week, and Wario the week after. My apologies, it was a really hectic week.

Even though I agree with you, @ Ray_Kalm , I took the overall average, seeing there was a giant split between 30-70, 36-65, and some 60-40s. Though, customs, I totally agree with you as well.

Thoughts about Game and Watch:

He's offensively good. He is missing out on the defensive side though, and it doesn't take much to get him offstage. Game and Watch has chef, which is a decent projectile, and a good grab and juggle game, which are his pros against Ganondorf. However, his recovery is fairly decent and he has good edge guarding options.

Playing defensively might be key in this matchup, but down throws to up air are excellent damage rackers at low percents, so that's something Ganondorf should keep in mind.

It doesn't help G&W's situation that he dies super easily due to Ganon's options, ESPECIALLY if side-B, still a reliable move in the matchup, is not tech'ed. Down tilt and Forward tilt will end his life at higher percents.

With customs, Ganondorf has more to tackle G&W with. Warlock Blade may be slow, but is an excellent spacing tool, and a good way to bypass any Chef spam. Dark Fists adds another reliable killing option to Ganondorf's move set.

I view the matchup with G&W more like 50-50, due to G&W's decent pressure options and juggle game, but with customs, it's more like 60-40 than 55-45. They add far more options for Ganondorf than they do for G&W, and that makes all the difference.

 

[adom4]

@ Xinc can you change Rosa's & Yoshi's font?
The Purple font makes it hard on the eyes.

 

[Opana]

I feel like it's 55:45 us, we can rack damage pretty well and we don't need much to at the very least get him offstage where nair should do well. I think GnW had nerfs to his kill moves too so that should allow us to somewhat take advantage of rage assuming we're not edge guarded. I never have much trouble being edge guarded, well lately anyway, due to properly mixing up high and low recovery as well as the occasional intimidation of uair or cide. I honestly play aggressively but smart, often with good outcomes. I feel like we can afford to be aggressive due to his lightness; I feel like choke is key in racking damage here too whether that be unteched hits or good reads.

With customs I feel WDK alone raises this 60:40 us, as I find the increased mobility very valuable here. I think it's also great for playing an offensive style here, whether that be using it to approach(Not necessarily hit, but again as a movement option due to the little end lag), or as a quick retreat.

Can Dark Dive hit them through Chef with super armour?

 

[JmacAttack]

I don't have enough MU experience to give a ratio. The one time I met a good Game and Watch, I got bodied and then he left. Most G&W are free wins because they dair onto the stage more reliably than Toon Link, but we all know that is them not playing our matchup correctly.

Definitely noticed what you all are saying: his offense is fantastic, but his defense is lousy. He doesn't pressure shields too much, but if he finds an opening, he can capitalize, and his juggles are safe because his nair/bair is disjointed, plus his Uair can keep you in the air longer even if it doesn't directly hit. His up smash also has armor, so aerial Wizard Foot is not a good option.

Flame Choke is the MVP in this matchup, and juggles become a non issue with customs, as WDK resets to the ledge. G&W is laggy enough that Warlock Blade can punish his projectile and dair.

 

[Xinc]

@ Xinc can you change Rosa's & Yoshi's font?
The Purple font makes it hard on the eyes.

Done.

 

[TriTails]

Firstly I apologize if I'm interrupting anything, but there is something I need to point out, specifically in Weegee's section:
'With all that said, let's get to where Ganon shines in this match-up. Luigi is very light. I mean very light.'
Mario has a weight value of 98.
Luigi has a weight value of 97.
Luigi gets KO'd roughly 3% earlier than Mario.

Luigi isn't light at all. Not even close. I feel that Ganon's absurd killing power is what makes basically EVERYONE seem light as heck (R. Warlock Punch killing below 15%? That is like, stronger than some FSes). But I do believe you should edit this because... well, Luigi doesn't die earlier than Mario much. The differences are too insignificant. The only times I got killed early is either because I got kicked by aerial WizFoot at 80~%, get rekt by D-air. Though, I have an experience when the opposing Ganon randomly does a R. Warlock Punch and I managed to stupidly end up RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. Thank God I was at 100% or so, so I don't feel bad .

Oh, and also, you should add Ganon is vunerable to both F-air and D-air chaingrabs. So git grabbed usually mean = 50%-60%. But I guess you can just sum it up by "WEEGEE COMBOS GANON HARD! THE END!" .

Last two things:
'Both are about the same movement wise, with Ganondorf have a slight edge in the air speed wise, and Luigi being faster dash wise on the ground.'
Disagree. Luigi is much faster dashing speed-wise and Ganon is only slightly (Barely?) faster than him in the air. Luigi Cyclone also goes really fast on the ground.

'All in all, Luigi dies extremely early if Ganondorf is a smart player, because Luigi should NOT be coming back when he's far offstage outside several exceptions.'
If you are gimping him, yes, he can die early. But he indeed can recover from basically the blast line with the almighty Missile and Cyclone, as well as SJP. Though, Ganon just ****ing murders him off-stage with evil, so I guess Luigi indeed does die early off-stage.

If you already aware of these, well, please take this just as a reminder. Feel free to correct me if you feel something is off.

Welp, don't hurt me .

 

[JmacAttack]

I just killed a G&W with ftilt at 70%. I was only at 70 myself, so my rage was minimal, and this was out of a flame choke setup.

Our frightening kill power is a huge factor in this matchup, as G&W is the second lightest character, and regardless of G&W's great offense, if we can kill him with tilts that early out of choke setups, this matchup is way in our favor. 60:40 or at least 55:45. The only way this is even is if he could wall us out, but he really can't. If you are aware of his tricks, they aren't any worse than what Mario has.

 

[TriTails]

If I recall right GnW had incredibly low crouch... He probably can duck under a lot of Ganon's moves and then counter with a D-tilt, which I remember sends you in the air, and then give Ganon hell with juggles.

Crouching is underrated. I was fighting a Kirby yesterday as Luigi and he managed to duck under pretty much everything, including grabs, and countered it with a D-tilt then a friggin dash attack, a ton lot. I do believe GnW can do similiar things.

Thank God he can't crawl.

 

[JmacAttack]

If I recall right GnW had incredibly low crouch... He probably can duck under a lot of Ganon's moves and then counter with a D-tilt, which I remember sends you in the air, and then give Ganon hell with juggles.

Crouching is underrated. I was fighting a Kirby yesterday as Luigi and he managed to duck under pretty much everything, including grabs, and countered it with a D-tilt then a friggin dash attack, a ton lot. I do believe GnW can do similiar things.

Thank God he can't crawl.

Game and Watch's down tilt knocks away, not up. Its windbox only knocks up if you're already in the air above it. It wouldn't start a juggle until well past 200%, because it barely has any knockback at all.

In any case, Ganon's primary spacing option is his own down-tilt, which outranges G&W's, and crouching does not block Flame Choke, aerials, or Dash Attack, so for crouching to be effective, Game and Watch has to read an Ftilt or a Grab. Might be useful during crossups, but it's not enough to swing the matchup in his favor.

Also, Ftilt has a hitbox on Ganondorf's other leg, as well, so if Game and Watch is close enough, Ganon's Ftilt will hit him through a crouch anyway.

 

[jahkzheng]

Game and Watch's down tilt knocks away, not up. Its windbox only knocks up if you're already in the air above it. It wouldn't start a juggle until well past 200%, because it barely has any knockback at all.

In any case, Ganon's primary spacing option is his own down-tilt, which outranges G&W's, and crouching does not block Flame Choke, aerials, or Dash Attack, so for crouching to be effective, Game and Watch has to read an Ftilt or a Grab. Might be useful during crossups, but it's not enough to swing the matchup in his favor.

Also, Ftilt has a hitbox on Ganondorf's other leg, as well, so if Game and Watch is close enough, Ganon's Ftilt will hit him through a crouch anyway.

Given the properties of Game & Watch's dtilt, I would think attacking with a short hopped aerial from his front would be screwed with if he used dtilt. Say I approach with a short hopped nair because I'm pretending to be Brawl Falcon. Not only could Game & Watch decrease his size with crouch forcing me to input my aerial just before landing just to hit him, he could lift me slightly with dtilt and even a well timed nair would miss above him.

This is just theory admittedly, as I've not tested this myself. Even a slight lifting property on dtilt could screw with us. Maybe it's the difference between getting a frame cancelled dair and not. Dair still hurts of course regardless of how it hits. In general, we can work around a trick like this pretty easy I think, but I figure the properties of Game & Watch's dtilt should be considered all the same, even if it turns out to be a minor annoyance at best. Plus I like learning about situational stuff like this. Maybe most G&W's will decide this trick isn't all that great and there's tons better options out there for them. It seems like it might be that way. All the same, I'm curious about what dtilt might do, just in case I run into it.

 

[TriTails]

Ganon doesn't space with D-tilt... he just ****ing murders you with it :D. Especially since GnW is the 2nd lightest character in the game. I say it takes around 5 solid hits and he is dead.

Though, Ganon gets juggled and he is screwed. Better keep that in mind so I don't slam kick him on the metal helmet or whatever he is using.

 

[Ghost Pikmin]

As a G&W, I want to say I have an easier time with this matchup with customs on, because the faster Chef custom is less punishible and actually works as a ground zoning tool. It's not so much that Ganon doesn't have ways around the bacon, just that it provides G&W a way to annoy Ganon without actually approaching which is really valuable.

Even so, I can't see this matchup being advantageous to G&W, simply because of how few mistakes he's allowed.

 

[JmacAttack]

As a G&W, I want to say I have an easier time with this matchup with customs on, because the faster Chef custom is less punishible and actually works as a ground zoning tool. It's not so much that Ganon doesn't have ways around the bacon, just that it provides G&W a way to annoy Ganon without actually approaching which is really valuable.

Even so, I can't see this matchup being advantageous to G&W, simply because of how few mistakes he's allowed.

Faster chef is vulnerable to Wizard Dropkick, because its bacon doesn't fly as far up. Probably isn't worth the severe loss of attack power, as regular chef blocks Dropkick.

Even with default chef, though, it's laggy enough that Ganon can scare/hit with Warlock Blade. Game and Watch doesn't have good options in this matchup, and customs sadly only make the divide worse. Even then, though, I wouldn't put the customs MU at more than 60:40. Fundamentally, Game and Watch's strengths lie in his aerials and juggles, and while escape from juggles is easier with Dropkick, it's not guaranteed, because Dropkick can only be used in the direction Ganon is facing, making it possible to predict and intercept. But be careful -- if you aren't quick, Dropkick has very low endlag, and you might eat a hellishly damaging back-air.

Still, Game and Watch is so light and Ganon is so heavy that Game and Watch would still need to play a much better game to win. Not only are each of Ganon's hits more damaging, each percent is more damaging for Game and Watch. G&W isn't the only character with deadly juggles in this matchup, either, he's just the one who relies on his juggles to win, while juggling for Ganon is just one of many options. G&W doesn't have an aerial with a hitbox below him other than dair, which is a horrible option to return to the stage with because of its high landing lag, and would only get him launched again by a dash attack. If used directly above Ganon, that's a Warlock Punch punish on reaction.

Ganon doesn't space with D-tilt... he just ****ing murders you with it :D. Especially since GnW is the 2nd lightest character in the game. I say it takes around 5 solid hits and he is dead.

You could say that about any of Ganondorf's moves, honestly. That's what I love so much about this character, that feeling of, "Ah yes, how shall I murder my victims today?" Probably what makes the matchup so scary for others - the next hit you take could be your last, no matter how badly you thought you were winning. This is exemplified in Ganon dittos, where you're landing strings and strings of perfect hits, and then the other guy lands an Fsmash and you die.

"So that's what that feels like..."

 

[BBC7]

A 60:40, really? I don't think the match-up is that difficult, it feels like what Game & Watch is good at is being downplayed in this discussion. As for the use in crouching in footsies, simply inputing Shield + Attack will make him Grab instead which has a higher pay-off than D-Tilt, no doubt. It's a 6 frame grab(fastest grab) + 1 frame shield activation. Ganondorf is decently heavy so D-Throw to U-Tilt/Nair will connect very often and rack up easy damage, not to mention that Uair prevents the stalling of moves so it is 21% every time if the Nair connects and the G&W player keeps refreshing their moves. As for Jmac saying that Dair is horrible for this match-up, I disagree mainly because Dair gives Ganondorf something to respect since it beats all of his aerials so G&W shouldn't worry about juggles. This makes returning to the stage not really much of a problem for G&W. As for Flame Choke, that's an option our side has to respect although a Fair on reaction will beat it out and put us at a favorable position. Don't get me wrong, Ganon does disgusting damage and kills us early as hell, but G&W has tools to make the fight more bearable. Not to mention that Ganondorf still has a pretty bad recovery. He has Up B, jumping back, airdodge, and Side B. We have Up B to bait airdodges and is usually enough, Bair to stagespike those that recover low, Fair to simply smack Ganon off stage, D-Tilt if you miss the sweetspot(windbox into F-Smash is funny), and Dash Attack to hit Ganon on Frame 1 of ledge-grabbing which isn't really that hard to time. Feels more like 50:50, Ganon mains already mentioned Ganon strengths.

 

[JmacAttack]

As for Jmac saying that Dair is horrible for this match-up, I disagree mainly because Dair gives Ganondorf something to respect since it beats all of his aerials so G&W shouldn't worry about juggles.

Beats all aerials but loses to all of Ganon's ground options, the most common of which, Dash Attack, sends Game and Watch back in the air for more juggles. Keep dairing onto the stage and you'll just keep getting dash attacked back into the air or Fsmashed into the shadow realm. This is why Game and Watches who dair onto the stage all the time are free wins. Dair is insanely punishable, so it isn't even close to a get out of juggles free card.

 

[BBC7]

Beats all aerials but loses to all of Ganon's ground options, the most common of which, Dash Attack, sends Game and Watch back in the air for more juggles. Keep dairing onto the stage and you'll just keep getting dash attacked back into the air or Fsmashed into the shadow realm. This is why Game and Watches who dair onto the stage all the time are free wins. Dair is insanely punishable, so it isn't even close to a get out of juggles free card.

Dair beats the moves that you use in order to juggle, so it kind of is a juggles free card. Not to mention that it doesn't fastfall if you use it as soon as you're out of hitstun, so Dair can be safe to pull out in that situation. If the Ganondorf player is sticking to the ground and waiting until you're close to juggle, Fair is a pretty good option for denying the juggle since it is also a disjoint. Nair also hits below, technically. I didn't say anything about landing with it, I just said it beats aerials and therefore, has to be respected for the most part. G&W has better landing options than a move with 28 frames of landing lag.

 

[Kofu]

This MU is probably close to even but leaning in Ganon's favor (so 45:55 for )

Both characters can demolish the other given the right circumstances. Game & Watch can juggle Ganon very, very well, and can actually screw up his aerial trump card (Wizard's Foot) so that it turns in his favor. His real boon in the MU is edgeguarding. Ganon isn't very flexible offstage. One well-placed FAir and Ganon isn't coming back. BAir and DAir can be used as well. On Ganon's side, he's just really really strong and outranges Game & Watch. Flame Choke is also pretty brutal to Game & Watch (I am so glad our techroll lets us escape). More or less Ganon has the better risk/reward ratio so the MU is in his favor.

 

[Vermanubis]

This MU is probably close to even but leaning in Ganon's favor (so 45:55 for )

Both characters can demolish the other given the right circumstances. Game & Watch can juggle Ganon very, very well, and can actually screw up his aerial trump card (Wizard's Foot) so that it turns in his favor. His real boon in the MU is edgeguarding. Ganon isn't very flexible offstage. One well-placed FAir and Ganon isn't coming back. BAir and DAir can be used as well. On Ganon's side, he's just really really strong and outranges Game & Watch. Flame Choke is also pretty brutal to Game & Watch (I am so glad our techroll lets us escape). More or less Ganon has the better risk/reward ratio so the MU is in his favor.

Ah, glad you found this, Kofu! I meant to tag you, but looks like you didn't even need me to. =P

 

[Kofu]

Ah, glad you found this, Kofu! I meant to tag you, but looks like you didn't even need me to. =P

An emissary came over to the Game & Watch boards alerting us to this. I actually saw it a few days ago but forgot to comment on it then.

This is one of those MUs where I feel on edge all the time because any misplay is going to be really painful.

 

[Xinc]

Thanks for the wonderful input, everybody! I'll input information and will have the analysis up shortly! (For real this time)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

55:45 Ganon. G&W should be treated just like a Jigglypuff. He's very light, space well against him, don't try to gimp him because his recovery works very well against Ganons edgegaurding.

A few solid hits and any move can ko him.

 

[Xinc]

Minor nitpick but in Yoshi's summary the purple font makes it hard to read, can you change it to a white font please?

Sure. Will change it first thing when I g

A quick nitpick myself, I would put the Peach match-up as 50:50 now instead of 45:55.

It was done before the patch, and going through the game, Peach is actually solidly even.

Peach vs Ganon this game resembles Falco vs Marth in brawl. Fun, and very very even on both sides.

I need to take a look at the change list lol. I haven't played against good Peaches for a while. D:

Also notice: If anyone has anything more to add, please add now. I have everything ready to update tomorrow afternoon.

 

[JmacAttack]

Just a quick note, everything Yoshi and on is black text for some reason. Hard to read. Bowser is also solid white text, which makes his section hard to read for people using bright background colors.

 

[Blobface]

I'd just like to add a few things that Ganon can use. It's definitely in Ganon's favor, at least 55:45.

For G&W's D-air, simply turning around your U-air brings the kick down on G&W's head, ignoring the key. F-air works for the same reason. Also, Ganon's U-smash has a copious hitbox that can trade with the D-air, even when it's falling fast.

G&W's tech rolls are bad. Like, almost-as-bad-as-Mac/Bowser bad. They're so bad you can literally get another flame choke off a tech away, and if G&W techs in place, his tech in place is so slow you can just boot him anyway. The only way they're better than Mac/Bowser is that G&W's inward tech actually put him behind you. This, combined with the fact that G&W gets hit by all of Ganon's flame choke followups, makes Flame Choke devastating to G&W.

Near the ledge, Ganon's F-smash kills G&W at 40%, F-tilt kills at 75%, and JAB kills at 125%.

On a side note, weren't we going in roster order? If so, we skipped Wario and Bowser Jr.

 

[Xinc]

Just a quick note, everything Yoshi and on is black text for some reason. Hard to read. Bowser is also solid white text, which makes his section hard to read for people using bright background colors.

One of the things that irks me is that we have two different background schemes (black, and white) but the text doesn't change. So if you have the white background screen, it's going to be difficult to read white text; meanwhile if you have black background, you won't be able to read black text. I think I'll just make general text blue.

I'd just like to add a few things that Ganon can use. It's definitely in Ganon's favor, at least 55:45.

For G&W's D-air, simply turning around your U-air brings the kick down on G&W's head, ignoring the key. F-air works for the same reason. Also, Ganon's U-smash has a copious hitbox that can trade with the D-air, even when it's falling fast.

G&W's tech rolls are bad. Like, almost-as-bad-as-Mac/Bowser bad. They're so bad you can literally get another flame choke off a tech away, and if G&W techs in place, his tech in place is so slow you can just boot him anyway. The only way they're better than Mac/Bowser is that G&W's inward tech actually put him behind you. This, combined with the fact that G&W gets hit by all of Ganon's flame choke followups, makes Flame Choke devastating to G&W.

Near the ledge, Ganon's F-smash kills G&W at 40%, F-tilt kills at 75%, and JAB kills at 125%.

On a side note, weren't we going in roster order? If so, we skipped Wario and Bowser Jr.

Thanks for the input. So I'm correct in saying Tipman ignores the key. F-air would also make sense, since the initial hitbox starts above Ganon's head and the hand isn't part of the hurt box.

Although I don't doubt the last bullet point, is this done with DI in mind? And is this calculation done with fresh and stale bonuses in mind?

 

[JmacAttack]

One of the things that irks me is that we have two different background schemes (black, and white) but the text doesn't change. So if you have the white background screen, it's going to be difficult to read white text; meanwhile if you have black background, you won't be able to read black text. I think I'll just make general text blue.

I wouldn't. One of the color schemes is a blue background, and I can't see blue being easier to read for dark background users.

I think it'd be easier on everyone to just click "Text Color >> None" and use bold/italics for emphasis. That way, everyone can read the guide with their default color scheme.

 

[Blobface]

Although I don't doubt the last bullet point, is this done with DI in mind? And is this calculation done with fresh and stale bonuses in mind?

This was done in training, which both doesn't incorporate DI and slightly reduces the power of all moves. They aren't really intended to be concrete %'s Ganon will kill G&W at, they're more meant to give a general idea of how quickly Ganon can kill G&W. Against Ganon, G&W will almost never survive past 80%. Any hit past that and he's done, no matter where he is.

 

[JmacAttack]

This was done in training, which both doesn't incorporate DI and slightly reduces the power of all moves. They aren't really intended to be concrete %'s Ganon will kill G&W at, they're more meant to give a general idea of how quickly Ganon can kill G&W. Against Ganon, G&W will almost never survive past 80%. Any hit past that and he's done, no matter where he is.

Training Mode doesn't reduce the power of moves, it just ignores the effects of move staling and rage. Given how strong rage is for Ganon, though, I believe rage cancels move staling out, and might overcome it to a degree. Should be noted, a fresh move has 5% power increase.