The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Deleted member]

Hi guys. I come by super infrequently nowadays and most of you prolly dont know me (except Scatz <3) but I figured i'd share thoughts on the patch:
Egg Roll nerf is fine. You just have to be more sparing about when you use a rising aerial when recovering. Still way better than melee. EDIT: Actually I havent used it. But if I understand correctly, its just bad after you use it once right?
Pivot grab nerf really really sucks. It basically means anyone who brought their brawl yoshi skills to PM can no longer do that stuff and get away with it because pivot grab is no loner a neutral game option. People will have to tech up and get proficient at double jumping through other characters neutral games and using nair like people do in Melee instead of pivot grabbing people out of poorly spaced aerial neutral. I think yoshi was low key OP before this change even though no one had combined the insane melee tech with the skillful brawl style pivot grabbing in a way that would make him that good.

Basically, everyone is going to have to get good at using DJC and RDJC in neutral to counter opposing neutral, get good at DJC uair chains as hamyojo said, and get good at shield dropping and comboing off of that. I think most of the good PM yoshi got by without doing some of this stuff at effectively as necessary, and I guess its fair that to do well with this character you should have to use the tech. Also I was starting to feel bad beating players with such better tech than me because pivot grab punishes were so free.

To the lab!

Also, leaving this here (Me and Maddox double yoshi dubs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IdbfkXzW0

 

[Scatz]

I only care about the eggroll nerf. That is too big of a nerf. I'd love to get the grab back, even if they made the timing stricter. But the eggroll and a reason to use Dair are what I want. There's no reason to use Dair unless you can get hits on them through a platform without landing on it or ledge canceling. Following up off of Dair at high percents is a 3.02 thing, there's no reason to Dair at high percents now. I just want to recover after getting hit by a weak hit like EVERY other character of the cast can.

@ hamyojo please talk to lunchables, when push comes to shove, the only change that needs to be reverted is eggroll

Dair in 3.5 wasn't effective to use at high percents because the landing hit sent them flying away from Yoshi. It's not only a 3.02 thing, it's now a 3.6b thing with stricter timing. Dair is percently ok being able to apply massive amounts of shield pressure and/or damage (30%+ is still super good off one move), and now it better because you can follow up with it on hit on any character. At low percents, it's good because of the forementioned positives, but you just won't be able to get followups on it due to the hitstun not being strong enough.

Adding more hitstun to the move (at its current state) means that Yoshi will be able to get followups at any percent and get essentially 3.02 followups at higher percents. It's fine where it's at now.

Hi guys. I come by super infrequently nowadays and most of you prolly dont know me (except Scatz <3) but I figured i'd share thoughts on the patch:
Egg Roll nerf is fine. You just have to be more sparing about when you use a rising aerial when recovering. Still way better than melee. EDIT: Actually I havent used it. But if I understand correctly, its just bad after you use it once right?
Pivot grab nerf really really sucks. It basically means anyone who brought their brawl yoshi skills to PM can no longer do that stuff and get away with it because pivot grab is no loner a neutral game option. People will have to tech up and get proficient at double jumping through other characters neutral games and using nair like people do in Melee instead of pivot grabbing people out of poorly spaced aerial neutral. I think yoshi was low key OP before this change even though no one had combined the insane melee tech with the skillful brawl style pivot grabbing in a way that would make him that good.

Basically, everyone is going to have to get good at using DJC and RDJC in neutral to counter opposing neutral, get good at DJC uair chains as hamyojo said, and get good at shield dropping and comboing off of that. I think most of the good PM yoshi got by without doing some of this stuff at effectively as necessary, and I guess its fair that to do well with this character you should have to use the tech. Also I was starting to feel bad beating players with such better tech than me because pivot grab punishes were so free.

To the lab!

Also, leaving this here (Me and Maddox double yoshi dubs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IdbfkXzW0

What are you doing here? I thought you left smash to focus on Tennis.

Pivot grab nerf is ok IMO. It's not butchered like Smash 4's version. So you can still whiff one and be able to defend properly. It's just not spammable any more.

Yes, when you get hit out of egg roll, it's useless after that. I find it overkill because Yoshi can definitely get stuck in situations where he's forced to use egg roll more than once.

It's hard to tech up recovery when you have next to nothing left. I was just about to learn some tougher methods to recover in PM, and now I'm sure my ability to push Yoshi's recovery has been severely limited.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I've been killed by a weak DK upB 2 ft from the stage. WITHOUT using eggroll. the first use is just as bad as using it in melee

 

[pugwishbone17]

It's almost like each nerf was meant to make you actually choose your options carefully now.

 

[hamyojo]

I only care about the eggroll nerf. That is too big of a nerf. I'd love to get the grab back, even if they made the timing stricter. But the eggroll and a reason to use Dair are what I want. There's no reason to use Dair unless you can get hits on them through a platform without landing on it or ledge canceling. Following up off of Dair at high percents is a 3.02 thing, there's no reason to Dair at high percents now. I just want to recover after getting hit by a weak hit like EVERY other character of the cast can.

@ hamyojo please talk to lunchables, when push comes to shove, the only change that needs to be reverted is eggroll

Idk man, Yoshi has good armor. For now, try learning to abuse it. Yoshi's going to struggle much harder in some mu's, yeah, but I think it's still amazingly doable... If you can figure out a way to win neutral.

 

[deeseejay]

Have you got an answer to multihit moves? Things like ZSS fair or DK up B absolutely destroys armour and without the eggroll now you just straight up fall and die.

I'm all for giving armour a chance but with a character that uses their DJ to manoeuvre around the stage if we get hit out of that jump now it's almost guaranteed death.

Maybe it's a touch too soon to be declaring Yoshi is horrendous now, but it's looking grim.

 

[Deleted member]

What are you doing here? I thought you left smash to focus on Tennis.

Pivot grab nerf is ok IMO. It's not butchered like Smash 4's version. So you can still whiff one and be able to defend properly. It's just not spammable any more.

Yes, when you get hit out of egg roll, it's useless after that. I find it overkill because Yoshi can definitely get stuck in situations where he's forced to use egg roll more than once.

It's hard to tech up recovery when you have next to nothing left. I was just about to learn some tougher methods to recover in PM, and now I'm sure my ability to push Yoshi's recovery has been severely limited.

Yeah I've been a bit more active lately. Still only played like 7 PM tournies. I go to college in the middle of iowa and am fairly busy with tennis, so I don't play that much. Last Iowa tourney I went to I beat the 2 best players in Iowa and got 2nd. I do decent in Socal when im home, one socal ranked tourny win a few months ago.
3 stocked Professor Pro in tourney a few days ago before losing(I'm in Uk on holiday rn).
Gonna play a ton this summer and try and level up a lot.

Yoshi's survivability was pretty ridiculous before the egg roll nerf. I think it'll be a huge hinderence against characters like Shiek that can set up edgeguards and cover options well. Hard to tell exactly how extreme a nerf it will be. Mixing up airdodges, recovering high, and knowing when to use rising aerials versus trying to straight tank moves will be more important obviously. Idk what tech you were thinking of but yeah, yoshis recovery is not that good anymore for sure.

Pivot grab is not useless at all but it isnt a neutral game option anymore really since it cant catch aerials. I imagine dash dance DJC nair or running grab will have to fill its place, at least for me. Just theory crafting but its still pretty quick and better than standing grab in most scenarios. Catching people right as they land with an aerial will still be a thing I'm sure.

I've been watching some good melee yoshi's to see how they deal with a lot of this stuff in neutral, since PM yoshi has it way better still. No nerf to yoshi's throws is ideal.
Also, yoshi was super super super good before this patch so don't despair guys. It'll just be harder.

 

[Mumbo]

Melee Yoshi's neutral is very centered around Parrying and less so around lightsheilding, two mechanics that arent and will probably never be in PM. Powershielding is also really wonky in this game, although I'm not quite sure if the shield change fixed that.

Watching melee Yoshis can help but only to a degree. They are totally different characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Who really uses parrying a lot in melee besides Amsa? Point taken on lightshielding but we can jump OOS now so that's a non-issue IMO. Jump OOS >>>>>>>lightshielding. The only reason yoshi used lightshielding so much was because OOS was such ass in Melee. Full hop nair out of shield in PM is so dope.
I'm mostly referring to the way Melee yoshi's RDJC nair through opposing neutrals. Timing the aerials so you take the hit with the double jump and then counter is something I am working on. I am sure there people who do it well in PM, but the yoshi's I have seen except sometimes maybe hamyojo don't do it too effectively.

In Melee, you can't get away with some of the awesome stuff you can do in PM with yoshi, so it's nice to watch how Melee yoshis deal with those limitations. Less Amsa cuz he's a god, more like other good yoshis like LittleFumi and Leffen.

Edit: Also I haven't played new yoshi so I am just theory crafting out of my butt :D
Edit2: Since ECE isnt safe I agree that yoshi got maybe over-nerfed. But I will wait and see on that

 

[TomBoComBo]

The nerfs build Yoshi around DJC Uairs, but the thi thing is, DJC Uairs don't work on most of the cast and are SUPER unsafe unless they're frame perfect in the perfect scenario if you're lucky enough to set it up correctly. ECEs and DJC Uairs are just not good, nor are ever the optimal/guaranteed followup. Yoshi in melee? yeah, you really need those and setting those up is easier thanks to parry and other parts of Yoshi's kit. Plus Melee Yoshi has to fight limited MUs thanks to the current meta and tier list. PM Yoshi has wayyy more diversity to deal with and has better tools to do what he needs to, which is why the melee tech that everyone complains about not being there, doesn't need to be there. PM Yoshi is not Melee Yoshi. He never should be, nor can he ever be, since parry doesn't work. It's all based on option, Yoshi will always be a wonderful character with lots of strengths. I just want to be able to recover, Eggroll didn't need the arbitrary nerf it got. the weight nerf plus that cuts Yoshi's survive-ability in ALL MUs by around 50%. That's a huge nerf to a character that sees almost no professional play.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I played around a bit with him today, and while I feel mostly pretty good about how Yoshi was changed, I do agree that the egg roll nerf was a little much. Yoshi has movement mixups for days, but he doesn't dominate neutral enough to warrant such limited recovery options. I don't even mind the fact that it only gets one use per airtime as much as the horizontal distance it travels now.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm starting to feel the nerf on Uair too. if eggroll is staying, Yoshi needs that back

 

[pugwishbone17]

Yoshi has plenty of other kill moves, a slight decrease to up air isn't really a big deal

 

[deeseejay]

I think another thing people are overlooking when comparing to Melee Yoshi is just how BIG PM Yoshi is.

He's HUGE compared to Melee.

Bigger hurt box. Makes recovering harder than Melee, especially with so many multihit moves that makes super armour completely pointless.

 

[TomBoComBo]

eggroll return to us

 

[Mumbo]

Someone on reddit mentioned he believes yoshi received two undocumented nerfs to his eggroll recovery. 1. Eggroll gives "about half" the horizontal momentum as it did in 3.5. And 2. After popping out of eggroll Yoshi loses "all" of his momentum whereas before he kept it all from the eggroll.

When i was first playing i certainly remember aerial eggroll feeling much worse than just the consecutive use height nerf, quite similarly to this guy actually, although i wasnt sure if it was a true change or just me mentally overreacting. Could someone test these claims in game (in both versions) please? Possibly make gifs/videos too? I would myself but i am out of town for the weekend.

 

[TomBoComBo]

the eggroll nerf is the only thing that needs to be reverted/fixed.

 

[Mumbo]

Okay, I just got home and tested eggroll for myself. I can confirm that aerial eggroll's horizontal momentum got HUGELY nerfed, and this change applies to the first use as well as all subsequent uses. This means that eggroll sucks as a recovery move EVEN ON THE FIRST USE. This is either an undocumented change or a bug, just tweeted strongbad about it. Here's what the official patch notes said, for reference:

-Side Special (Egg Roll)
--Vertical momentum gain after the first use 0.5 -> 0
--Usage count does not reset on ledge grab
--Properly resets on landing and getting grabbed​

 

[TomBoComBo]

maybe a bug, but who knows

 

[Damp]

Why would they nerf KBG on up air when it was basically our only kill option on floaties outside of down-b? I really don't understand the changes at all. PMDT really ****ed up this patch for a lot of characters. I just really don't understand it. For a game that's not getting any big tournaments and is losing players/viewers, pissing off the player base is not a good move.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Why would they nerf KBG on up air when it was basically our only kill option on floaties outside of down-b? I really don't understand the changes at all. PMDT really ****ed up this patch for a lot of characters. I just really don't understand it. For a game that's not getting any big tournaments and is losing players/viewers, pissing off the player base is not a good move.

A lot of characters actually got buffed. Only a few communities like us are pissed about the new patch. The change to Uair was to make DJC Uairs more of a staple. Problem with that is that DJC Uair work on maybe a 3rd of the cast and have very limited setup options. Fortunately, that change is manageable, as is the majority of Yoshi's changes. The weight issue and the secret nerf or possible bug on the eggroll nerf are the two issues I feel most now. Eggroll needs to be fixed or reverted, it's not correct to what the patch notes state, any Yoshi player will tell you the same, Eggroll is basically melee Eggroll, which makes it horrible for recovery now. Either the horizontal distance nerf was something done without the patch notes, or the change made had this averse effect on the move. Regardless, this patch make Yoshi have to recover high, or recover low, recovering mid has become very unsafe in most MUs. I hope to god there are balance changes in official release, Yoshi needs eggroll to work THE FIRST TIME it's used, I completely understand why it shouldn't work the second time.

 

[Damp]

Yeah eggroll nerf/bug is beyond stupid. Whoever thought of that idea shouldn't be on PMDT. I also don't see why they want DJC upairs to become a staple in Yoshi play. Up tilt is so much better in PM than it is in melee, so why not let us use that? Other characters get to use their up tilts for juggles, why neuter Yoshi?

 

[TomBoComBo]

they neutered him because somehow that makes marth and falco better. Nerf one MU to buff other characters. Makes total sense guys

 

[Mumbo]

they neutered him because somehow that makes marth and falco better. Nerf one MU to buff other characters. Makes total sense guys

Ok lets not get out of hand. I only said that as a joke because neither Falco nor Marth got touched and they were commonly thought to be top tiers already. I really hope you didn't take that seriously.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I was using your joke, might have worded it bad though. oh well

 

[Mumbo]

Well when PMDT said Yoshi can't grab airborne opponents they really meant it. Yoshi can't grab characters that are using grounded moves that make them "airborne" ie Ike's Uptilt and Pit's Uptilt. Those are the only two moves I've noticed but there are probably several others (perhaps Toon Link's Forward Smash?). It's really silly.

 

[Mumbo]

After testing, I'm not quite sure how this interaction works. Ike's Utilt dodges the grab in both 3.6 and 3.5, possibly due to Ike just not having hurtboxes at his feet for some reason. I tested with other characters too, however, and the most consistent dodged grab I could get in 3.6 but not 3.5 was Meta Knight upsmash. I really just don't understand if these grabs are missing because of the nerf or not.

 

[Feral Cadence]

One thing I did notice about the grab is that a lot of chaingrabs are actually easier in some ways. I don't know why Yoshi didn't have a grab box in his mouth before. The change just means that it's basically impossible to use grab in neutral. Which sucks, but I can live with it.

I'm struggling with up-air juggles, though. It feels like you can't juggle with it percents high enough to keep them in hitstun. Is that an issue in Melee, as well? Does up-air need a hitstun buff, or do I just suck?

 

[Mumbo]

One thing I did notice about the grab is that a lot of chaingrabs are actually easier in some ways. I don't know why Yoshi didn't have a grab box in his mouth before. The change just means that it's basically impossible to use grab in neutral. Which sucks, but I can live with it.

I'm struggling with up-air juggles, though. It feels like you can't juggle with it percents high enough to keep them in hitstun. Is that an issue in Melee, as well? Does up-air need a hitstun buff, or do I just suck?

Do you DJC your Uairs? If you just SHFFL the uairs they aren't fast enough to juggle or follow up from. If you do DJC the uairs, you probably just aren't doing them fast enough.

 

[deeseejay]

"-Vertical momentum gain after the first use 0.5 -> 0"

Did this ever get addressed? Is it getting fixed?

It 100% DOESN'T work like that at the moment. Even the first time you use it you have the 0 vertical momentum gain.

 

[Damp]

Nah, nobody is ever gonna own up to the mistake and they're just gonna leave Yoshi ****ed.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I Mean, I've been dealing with it, I just have to play the domination game in mental and in movement. But Eggroll is bugged or secret nerfed. It needs to be either fixed or completely reverted

 

[Mumbo]

Who do you guys think are Yoshi's favorable matchups in pm 3.6? I believe Yoshi is still a counter to ICs and he has a good matchup v Roy and Lucario, but I don't have enough experience in most of the other matchups to solidly name what I think are good matchups. I can name several characters that I think are certainly bad matchups for Yoshi, but rather than talking about those I'd like to know what everyone else thinks about Yoshi's GOOD matchups.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Fox Mu hasn't changed much, still slightly for Yoshi.
DK still even depending on stage.
ICs have always been really in Yoshi's Favor
Bowser is now slightly in Yoshi's favor thanks to all the armor nerfs and armor removal on Bowser's command grab.
Diddy has been in Yoshi's favor for a long time, now footstool is gone
Wolf has always been for Yoshi
Kirby is even
G&W is easier to deal with now thanks to the nerf on his upB
Jiggs is in Yoshi's favor
Marth and Falcon have been in Yoshi's favor, and still are thanks to gimp potential on marth and tech chase ease on falcon respectively. You are almost guaranteed to stuff falcon every time if you get your moves out first, with the small exceptions of non-active Bair frames and Uair for obvious range issues.
DDD is in Yoshi's favor, he can't deal with pressure and if you don't let him grab you he has no answer to Yoshi's speed.
I've always personally thought that Ike was in Yoshi's favor, just because of combo weight and speed, but that's a personal opinion.
Roy still in Yoshi's favor
Lucario is more even now that he has more gimp potential Yoshi thanks to eggroll nerf. The issue with the MU before was lucario had to fish hardcore for the kill, now it's quite a bit easier for him to land even a weak hit to kill.

Other than that,
Snake is even
ZZS is even
Mario is even
Charizard is roughly even
pitt is roughly even
Lucas is now roughly even

Everyone else, Yoshi has struggles with, but still none are unwinnable, even falco

 

[pugwishbone17]

@ Damp About this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-6b-yoshis-useless-eggroll.409159/

Can you please try not to represent us like this? It's making it sound like Yoshi players are complete cry babies over a couple of changes when it's just you.

 

[Mumbo]

Well I just realized that the pop up hit of down b can be ASDI'd down by every character at any percent, allowing them to punish you out of the highly committal strong hit. Not only that, but because it is ASDI and not crouch cancelling, you get the same effect out of hitstun, which means Down air -> Down b doesn't work. @ Scatz

 

[Scatz]

If that is the case, then Dsmash is our most trusted kill option from that setup. DownB would probably become use-able only if we can keep them guessing to prevent the ASDI, but I'm sure the limited amount of setups would mean that it would be a lot easier to figure out the times where it's more useful to use DownB than Dsmash (namely large horizontal blastzones).

As far as what MUs are in Yoshi's favor, I don't know since I haven't played a lot of people since 3.6b's release.

 

[TomBoComBo]

at least strongbad is looking at eggroll now.
And, Dair sets up a rock-paper-scissors now, and if you space it right, you can lead it into a multitude of things. The opponent, at mid-higher percents, will get out of hitstun around the same time your Lcancel ends (maybe slightly after, haven't tested it to great lengths).

What I have noticed though, is that it sets up a shield/grab/move scenario that we have to react to. We can punish/escape easily from all options, but there really isn't any one followup after Dair. If you space it so you land slightly away from your opponent, you can avoid most retaliation with the startup frames of Fsmash and finish them like that.

The better players I've played tend to go for buffering shield into a shieldgrab or something out of shield. In this case, DownB is perfect, because they'll react to the first hit, grab and get bopped. If I land Dair at mid-high percents on a flat surface, my go-to's are jabs or DownB, since they cover 2 of the options each. If the opponent is knowledgeable about DAir, they might attack out of being Daired, which you can spotdodge and punish with whatever.

I know Dair isn't exactly a kill setup, so I tend to use it much less as a stock progresses. Though sometimes I want to Nair out of it (which is basically immediate after Dair ends) This is good for pressure on platforms and sometimes just midair. Here you can also follow with a DownB and hit them before they hit the ground or have a chance to Airdodge. I believe the hitstun is slightly more in the air, but I could be wrong. If you get a chance to carry an opponent off a platform with Dair, try it.

The situations of using it there are always different, but I get the most reliable results when I get the opponent on a platform and ledge cancel dair into anything I want. Ledge canceling is one of Yoshi's strongest tools to nab badDI kills, create interesting pressure, and extend strings into possible kills. You can ledge cancel Dair into an immediate DownB. May or may not hit, it's probably frame perfect and dependent on opponent character + % but, they can't ASDI the downB itself, and it's faster than a grounded option. Other options out of Ledgecancel include all Rising Aerials, Fair, Uair, Nair, another Dair. You can also keep it simple and just Uair if you feel that the other options won't put you in a good position (early percents where the opponent could possibly punish a Rising Aerial after hit).

These are things I've always done, The last hitbox of Dair used to knock them away, but now there are more followups from ledge canceling. I hope this helps some of you, tell me what you think.

 

[Damp]

@ Damp About this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-6b-yoshis-useless-eggroll.409159/

Can you please try not to represent us like this? It's making it sound like Yoshi players are complete cry babies over a couple of changes when it's just you.

That was the only way to bring attention to the matter. Nobody was looking at it before. Had to be a little extreme to get somebody to FINALLY notice.

 

[theOVEN]

some thoughts of mine now that I've taken 3.6 yoshi out for an extensive test drive...

• new upair: brety gud, at moderate % 30-60 depending on weight you can use the decreased KBG to get some very interesting setups that weren't possible in 3.5. Try mixing up your djc upair followups instead of just following them into the sky and use that weaker KB to bop 'em with nair or fair, and then do some fancy waveland stuff. Everyone is still afraid of yoshi's combos, keep them that way.
• yoshi bomb: got nerfed hard, mostly valid. It was a pretty stupid kill move in 3.5 and its troll potential has been nerfed understandably. Still useful for comboing into on floaties, or out of upair combos at low %. Secret nerf is that the SDI multiplier being changed to 1 affects ALL hits including the popup on grounded yoshi bomb. This makes no sense--what is the point of the sweetspot (popup) hitbox being nerfed in speed, duration, and utility all at once? As it is now, even panic DI or really ****ty DI on the popup will move someone at kill % out of the main hit, effectively making grounded yoshi bomb useless as a kill move. Hopefully this is a bug.
• pivot grab: calm your jimmies you can still tech chase people and I think the main point here was to make melee style chain grabs more difficult. Because of the grab box extension timing remaining the same on the move, I believe a lot of chain grabs on e.g., spacies at moderate % are still possible with excellent timing, just harder than 3.5
• dair: overall better than 3.5, less reliable at low %. Really stupid that you can be punished for hitting someone successfully with the move and landing in front of them, but having a reliable dsmash setup makes it pretty gahlike at high %, especially on floaties.
• weight nerf: RIP armor
• DJ buff: based. I would give up even more weight if yoshi was footstool-proof at all times ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
  
• parry change: partially based. Worth it overall since I was sick of parry glitch, but I'll miss parrying grabs. I've also noticed certain moves poking me out of shield--this was in 3.5 too so it's not new. Anyone have evidence of this?
• general grab nerf: what the **** why
  
• egg roll: why? WHY?! WHY?!?

Perhaps hamyo could shed some more light on the PMDT design philosophy that led to these yoshi changes, but as it stands, I'm really unhappy and thinking a lot about using yoshi less this patch. Where are the legions of yoshi players that are winning tourneys across the country, chaingrabbing marths and falcos from 0 to 100% and finishing with an offstage egg roll combo into yoshi bomb? What made the dino so unbalanced that his already mediocre grab game (let's not forget yoshi is the only tether character that can't tether the ledge, folks) with very limited and predictable throw options needed to get nerfed hard in every situation outside of a tech chase? The egg roll nerf is laughable and I have all my fingers and toes crossed that it gets reverted. I fully admit to abusing the **** out of 3.02 egg roll, and the 3.5 nerfs were valid and respectable. These nerfs take away yoshi's only recovery mixup and chance of recovering out of wall tech or meteor cancel after DJ. I don't understand why such a heavy handed nerf was implemented, it doesn't make sense. At the very least, I hope that the secret nerfs//unintended bugs to new egg roll are reverted so the performance of the move matches what the changelog shows. Zero momentum from first use egg roll use means that immediately air dodging and hoping you make it back to the stage is a better strategy for recovering high or medium than ever getting into the egg.