The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Scatz]

People will be able to help you illustrate your problems and give you advice on how to get better at it. There's no reason not to post them if you're trying to improve.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I noticed there's no Yoshi video thread. Should I create one when I get my footage, or is it not worth it yet?

 

[Scatz]

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-vods.379528/

Though, idk how much active Mumbo is on here anymore.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Oops. I spoke before properly checking the forum. The video post is just way further down than I expected. We need more footage, people!

 

[Mumbo]

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2zuj7t/yoshis_parry_glitch_more_info_in_comments/cpmmmz7

I trust Ripple's word here. If this is true I am extremely upset.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I wonder if they could make it so Yoshi gets super armor when he starts his shield, which lasts for like 10 frames when he gets hit or something. He'd still take damage, but I don't see a problem with that. Though I don't know if the parry is really necessary anymore, given the number of tools PM Yoshi already has over Melee Yoshi.

 

[Scatz]

As I said in the other thread, I think Yoshi's parry should probably be put to rest considering that they can't find a valid solution to get it working. If it's possible to normalize his shield, and prevent that specific part where Yoshi is getting into shield, then I'm all for it. Something I noticed about those 6 frames is that Yoshi cannot jump OoS until he's actually in his egg. So powershielding doesn't become very effective because we're slower on the punish/pressure.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I had forgotten about the fact that he can't jump out of that animation. I don't know if I'd want him to have a bubble shield, but that's more for aesthetic value than mechanical value. But making it act like a bubble shield that can't be poked would be pretty cool. I dunno. It needs a change, but I'm not sold on anything in particular.

 

[Scatz]

I would prefer it stay as an egg instead of changing it to a bubble. I just want them to take out the broken parry and just allow us to jump OoS like everyone else. That way, we can at least use the 6 frames for more than just parrying grabs.

 

[Mumbo]

http://paragon.vsgaming.org/

Paragon LA, on track to be much bigger than aftershock. Includes PM as a main event, plus itll be streamed this time!

I can't say for sure that I'll be there, but if you are willing to spend the money to travel to cali it will be well worth it

 

[Mumbo]

In other news, Yoshi has a fully invincible Hax dash (though its pretty difficult to pull off) and its hype as ****

 

[Mumbo]

Yoshi 3.5 Matchup chart survey:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1zrt36qPkTZlKnh_DHA67RhMb03NvVK2VtoZzrqU4aFI/viewform

If you have an opinion, please answer.

 

[Limbose]

Filled it out kinda in a rush and on a weird-ass laptop, don't judge if I said stupid stuff

 

[TomBoComBo]

http://tampaspicyspot.challonge.com/spicypm052215
I came in second at my local (which is starting to grow to become a mini-regional) only lost to SterioKiDD who's a Ness player that spams the hell out of PKfire

 

[Feral Cadence]

Good news, everyone! I realized that it isn't that I suck at the Marth matchup, but that the only person I know who mains Marth is way better than me!

Unfortunately, almost everyone I used to play PM with have either stopped or moved away. The Buffalo Smash community is extremely anti-PM. They keep trying to convert me to Melee, and get angry when I choose lower-tier characters.

I'm debating whether it's worth it to try to grow a community from the ground up, or if I should just move already. Every time I reach out on local Facebook smash or fighting game pages, I either start a PM hate thread, or I get silence.

 

[TomBoComBo]

build it, it takes time, but all it takes is 2 players

 

[waifumagnet]

Build it from the ground up and find people that will stay.

 

[TomBoComBo]

meet my original training buddy guys @ waifumagnet ^
peeping in on the Yoshi threads again I see Jeef?

 

[waifumagnet]

Battle buddies till the end. :D

Lurking because the TL forums are boring.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Boring is better than mostly dead, lol.

 

[-Maddox-]

Didn't really get any responses in the video thread so I thought I'd post my games here in case more people check this thread or whatever. Feel free to compliment, critique, or talk ****.

Vs. Jason Waterfalls (ZSS)
http://youtu.be/x9zJg3RmmXc
Vs. Machiavelli (Dedede)
http://youtu.be/xyK5JkH23vM
Vs Ipunchkidsz (Lucario)
http://youtu.be/4Rpoc1WqywA
Vs Sneez (Rob)
http://youtu.be/MKQEEbRSbe0

 

[Feral Cadence]

No more grab parrying... And lots of other nerfs too, from what the changelog says. I haven't played around with 3.6b yet, but I'm a little worried...

 

[Limbose]

No more grab parrying... And lots of other nerfs too, from what the changelog says. I haven't played around with 3.6b yet, but I'm a little worried...

-Overall survivability is much better due to no footstools, but most everything else was a nerf.
-Little nerf to uair's KBG, not major but still there.
-Decently sized nerf to Yoshi-bomb which was somewhat well deserved.
-Random-ass nerf to dthrown chaingrab on maybe a fourth of the cast, honesly extremely uneeded and something I believe should be reversed.
-Pivot grab nerfed a little, but not really a big deal.
-Dair damaged nerfed, but still does a bunch so not too big of a deal, but still existent.
-Dair landing hitbox removed, not sure if it's a buff or nerf yet, gonna have to play with it first. It could be a nerf, but also could be a pretty great buff leading into combos and stuff.
-Egg roll changed around a bit, fixed a weird interaction that makes it correctly refresh egg roll hops upon landing and getting grabbed out of the egg, but also made it not refresh the hop on a ledge grab
-Nerf to Yoshi's weight a bit, he's 3 units lighter unfortunately
-Grab parry at the start of his shield removed, replaced with head/nose intangibility. I'm sad about no parrying but I'll have to see exactly how the intangibility works out to decide what this is. I wonder if it fixed the parry glitch? If it did, probably a buff as a whole.

A glitch I have yet to report is that Yoshi's shield is strangely shield-pokable from strange lower diagonal angles. This has existed throughout 3.02 up to 3.5, I assume in 3.6 too. It doesn't happen often, but I've lost stocks to it. I'm going to make a thread in the bug report in just a sec in the hopes that PMDT will look into it. Hopefully it's a quick fix.

 

[-Maddox-]

Not being able to grab people in the air will suck. And being lighter also means we can't armor as much.

 

[Dyl9]

A glitch I have yet to report is that Yoshi's shield is strangely shield-pokable from strange lower diagonal angles. This has existed throughout 3.02 up to 3.5, I assume in 3.6 too. It doesn't happen often, but I've lost stocks to it. I'm going to make a thread in the bug report in just a sec in the hopes that PMDT will look into it. Hopefully it's a quick fix.

I'm fairly sure this existed in melee. It has something to do with Yoshi's foot poking out of his shield, but you can't see it because he is invisible while in shield.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I'm not disappointed in the nerfs, and I'm very happy that I can't get footstooled anymore out of my double jump.

 

[Limbose]

Not being able to grab people in the air will suck. And being lighter also means we can't armor as much.

The thing that kills me about the grab change is that nobody was calling for it at all, at least that I heard. They're just trying to normalize Yoshi's grab to be like other tether grabs, but it's not really like the other tether grabs unless he gets a tether. The solution here isn't to give him a tether, it's to not try to pretend he has one and change his grab like this.
In my opinion, I think the aerial grab should be given back and his weight should be reverted. Weight's all we got to not lose our only recovery option at low percents, man. I think we need it to not be incredibly easy to kill.
At least footstools aren't a problem anymore. I'm happy about that.

 

[-Maddox-]

The thing that kills me about the grab change is that nobody was calling for it at all, at least that I heard. They're just trying to normalize Yoshi's grab to be like other tether grabs, but it's not really like the other tether grabs unless he gets a tether. The solution here isn't to give him a tether, it's to not try to pretend he has one and change his grab like this.
In my opinion, I think the aerial grab should be given back and his weight should be reverted. Weight's all we got to not lose our only recovery option at low percents, man. I think we need it to not be incredibly easy to kill.
At least footstools aren't a problem anymore. I'm happy about that.

Yeah I think this patch is going to hurt Yoshi more than people realize. I'd say he probably got hit the hardest besides Lucario and maybe Fox/Sheik.

 

[Mumbo]

I read the patch notes and thought Yoshi got an overall buff. When I played him I realized that was wrong.

Nerfed his bad grab. Nerfed his bad recovery. Eggroll seems to do nothing in the air and the weight nerf is annoying.

But hey, 1/5 broken Melee top tiers got nerfed, so that's good.

 

[Feral Cadence]

I only played a bit against CPUs last night, but the d-air change seems like a nerf to me. Your opponent seems to be able to act out of getting hit faster than you can act out of hitting them, and losing the last hitbox to send them away kinda makes it more trouble than it's worth.

I never really had a problem with footstools, but I guess that change is neat.

The grab change is what kills me the most. No more chaingrabs on basically anybody. Except maybe spacies at lower percents with really strict pivot grab timing.

I dunno. I've been playing around with Melee Yoshi a lot recently, and he actually seems more unique. If they were able to make his shield have Melee properties, I'd understand. Screw Brawl intangibility...

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I actually hardly ever grab, (which means I never chaingrab), so that won't affect me thankfully.

 

[Getsafe]

A good deal of these changes are horse**** :/ I was in the process of picking up yoshi late 3.5 but now I'm pretty discouraged

 

[TomBoComBo]

Eggroll nerf is the only one that actually REALLY needs to be reversed. It's gone from the best move he's ever had back to the worst. Yoshi's recovery is already seen as bad, but he gets bumped once, eggroll can't save him anymore and thats complete bull****. Other characters have the tools to get back after a possible gimp, why does Yoshi have to lose his? There were legit reasons behind the other nerfs/changes, but the one on eggroll was completely unnecessary and was way too huge on top of it. Every other change is fine, that one is complete ass

does anyone have direct contact with the PMDT? namely lunchables? He's the main one behind Yoshi's changes. the only things I personally want are the eggroll nerf to be reverted and a small amount of hitstun added to Dair, No more than a frame or two added to hitstun

 

[TomBoComBo]

Also, those having trouble with the grab nerf, time the grab so it makes contact with them as they Lcancel. It's a small window, but it's what we have to work with now

 

[hamyojo]

The idea with Yoshi's changes was that he's now less "silly". So... He dies to stupid footstools less, but on the other hand he's been standardized with the rest of the cast in other ways. Most other characters didn't have really good pivot grabs, or chain grabs/throw follow ups that were as good as Yoshi's. So they took it away. They took away parrying because that stuff was pretty silly, but I know he needed that pretty badly. They asked me on a few of these changes, and I approved most of them, even if I also hoped/asked for buffs to his neutral game.
So, in 3.5 Yoshi had one of the best punish games off of a grab in the game. I think he still does, but it went from possibly top 5 in the game to top 15, maybe top 10 vs some chars. His neutral still sucks vs most characters, though.
Yoshi's still really workwithable, he's just going to be a lot harder and you're going to have to do DJC uairs and stuff to combo at early percents now, which is actually easier becaue they made that move a bit weaker.
Also sheild dropping is easier! Y'all get working on your platform game!
I plan on still playing mostly Sheik, but I'll still use Yoshi for MU's I think he's favored in/players he'd work well against. I'll also be trying to focus time on Squirtle or maybe Kirby, so we'll see in the long run what happens.
3.6 was 3.nerf for a lot of odd characters, which is sad but I think it'll be good in the long run.

Edit: A huge part of what this patch tried to do to Yoshi was make his strengths come from difficult stuff, like DJC uair combos and more difficult decision making than "pivot grab 4 times in neutral" which we could all get away with a bit too much. At least that's my opinion, based on the changelog

 

[hamyojo]

Eggroll nerf is the only one that actually REALLY needs to be reversed. It's gone from the best move he's ever had back to the worst. Yoshi's recovery is already seen as bad, but he gets bumped once, eggroll can't save him anymore and thats complete bull****. Other characters have the tools to get back after a possible gimp, why does Yoshi have to lose his? There were legit reasons behind the other nerfs/changes, but the one on eggroll was completely unnecessary and was way too huge on top of it. Every other change is fine, that one is complete ***

does anyone have direct contact with the PMDT? namely lunchables? He's the main one behind Yoshi's changes. the only things I personally want are the eggroll nerf to be reverted and a small amount of hitstun added to Dair, No more than a frame or two added to hitstun

Lunchables and I hang out lots, and that kid does not like Yoshi's dair lol. I can talk to him about giving it a bit more stun so Yoshi can maybe do something out of it at high percents.
The egg roll change was rough... but I think being able to safely jump up on to the stage from under it without worrying about footstools is worth it. At least he still has the one side b, right? I do wish hew as heavier, though. Him being both lighter AND him losing side b I feel is a bit much and it hits hard, but I'll try to get used to it. I wonder if the PMBR will do balance changes between 3.6 beta and 3.6.

 

[Scatz]

Yoshi CAN combo from his Dair at higher percents. The timing is strict, but you can easily land Dsmash or DownB as combo enders after getting the L cancel off Dair. If you up the hitstun, then the move has to take an SDI multiplier, which would break it's overall use. I'd figured Lunchables would hate Dair because it's a borderline broken move when made. Extreme damage and/or shield pressure and NOW has the ability to follow up. This version of Dair is, IMO, stronger than his previous one (except 3.02).

I'm indifferent about the recovery changes. If anything, I'd just be fine having the movement of egg roll in 3.5 with losing immediate use after getting hit. Not only that, but not refreshing after grabbing the ledge was overkill.

 

[Mumbo]

Yoshi also lost one of his only options after wall teching. I assume b reverse neutral b would be an ok option if you tech really high up but its a long animation and you cant grab ledge with it.

I'm still not seeing how down air is a buff. At low %s I'm getting punished out of landing dair. Exactly how high of a % does the opponent need to be at to get guaranteed down b after dair?

The grab change is ridiculous, and not just because of chain grabbing. Not being able to grab airborne characters really really hurts Yoshi's matchups against chars that shffl a lot, notably spacies. This patch the Falco matchup is essentially unwinnable. It's also annoying that you can't force people into sheild to set up grabs because they can just mash jump and punish your slow ass grab. The pivot grab nerf is enough.

I don't understand how people are trying to justify the uair change as a buff. People argue this means you can continue Uair chains for longer, which isnt exactly true or significant. Scaled knockback was chaged from 106 to 100 but base knockback went unchanged, which means the reduced knockback will be more significant at higher %s than lower ones. You will get at most 1 extra uair off, and thats only if the stars align and they happen to be at that 1-2% differential between 3.5 ad 3.6 where the knockback is reduced enough to get the extra uair. The way I see it, they just nerfed his most reliable kill move against Floaties, some of Yoshis hardest matchups.

And whats the deal with nerfing Yoshi's weight? Was Yoshi so strong that AFTER the nerfs he's already gotten he needs a number turned down to lower his overall power level in all matchups? Yoshi gets hit harder which not only affects his recovery (the horizontal portion of which got stupidly nerfed) but moves also break armor 1-3% earlier. Yoshi was too strong but Marth and Falco are just fine?

The footstool change is great and the shield change I don't quite understand yet, but it seems like a great quality of life change in exchage for grab parrying. The down-b changes were needed and should have been met with buffs in other areas to keep Yoshi's overall power level the same while removing the silly stuff and making his matchup spread less polarizing, but the rest of the patch notes are nerfs nerfs and nerfs and it makes literally no sense.

 

[Getsafe]

^exactly what I've been saying.

Someone on PMDT must get regularly rekt by a yoshi

Sorry for double post, not sure how that happened

 

[TomBoComBo]

I only care about the eggroll nerf. That is too big of a nerf. I'd love to get the grab back, even if they made the timing stricter. But the eggroll and a reason to use Dair are what I want. There's no reason to use Dair unless you can get hits on them through a platform without landing on it or ledge canceling. Following up off of Dair at high percents is a 3.02 thing, there's no reason to Dair at high percents now. I just want to recover after getting hit by a weak hit like EVERY other character of the cast can.

@ hamyojo please talk to lunchables, when push comes to shove, the only change that needs to be reverted is eggroll