The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm gonna make a bug report for the bair after I try and get a bit more distance between the tail and the hitbox to make it absolutely clear and also post some brawlbox pics to show what it is and see what they say.

 

[Mumbo]

@ pugwishbone17 that is impressively bad, I think that might be a bug as well

@ Mumbo right, you can't perform any action during IASA frames, so less IASA+higher terminal velocity==safer and easier ECEs, you no longer have to be TAS level to be frame safe it's actually pretty exciting

@ TheGravyTrain sorry let me clarify: I'm still pretty mad that bair is as easily beatable as it is and I don't believe the hurtbox placement is good design, having hurtboxes all over the place continuously while the hitboxes only come out on <half of active frames of the move AND don't extend as far as the hurtboxes is stupid. But if the PMDT hasn't done anything at this point and the move has been the same since yoshi's release, it looks like it's something we have to either make noise about to get changed, deal with, or wait and see if it's not fixable for some reason.

Does yoshi even reach terminal velocity when he ECEs? I feel like that wouldn't matter

 

[Damp]

We have to make noise about it. Plain and simple. If we want it changed, we have to ***** and moan just like the Bowser mains did and the Sheik mains did.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Flies, Honey, Vinegar.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Narpas_sword

Does the PMDT know or have any progress with distorted bair hurtboxes? I can make a bug report if you need to, just wanna make sure its a bug this time...

 

[Narpas_sword]

last i saw it was being discussed. but it's not bug realm it's balance realm.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'll post some pics later, but how is a hurtbox swinging around, clearly not following where its logical position should be (on the tail), a balance concern? There are a lot of ways you can change bair, but I don't think this is a good way to do it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

if any alteration of any move is concerned, it goes to people handling character changes and balance. not me, who tracks bugs and tests game breaking issues.

I've really got nothing I can add on the matter other than to tell you that i've passed your concern on.

edit:

can you take a look at the bair with debug in game?
brawlbox does not display hurtboxes correctly on scaled bones

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I will post some pics tomorrow.

 

[PsychoGhost]

I will post some pics tomorrow.

Did you ever get those pictures? I too would like to see the frame data on it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comm..._discussion_thread_90_91015_using_the/cux01p8

^ Here's a link to a few changes I'm thinking Yoshi may enjoy. Nothing too good, but it should help balance and polish him overall. Let me know what you all think! I'd love some feedback!

 

[Scatz]

Did you ever get those pictures? I too would like to see the frame data on it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comm..._discussion_thread_90_91015_using_the/cux01p8

^ Here's a link to a few changes I'm thinking Yoshi may enjoy. Nothing too good, but it should help balance and polish him overall. Let me know what you all think! I'd love some feedback!

Is there a video of the egglay bug?

Improving Fair would make it stupidly good. It's already a good move, no need to make it stronger.

Can do you have a video showing how the angles differ from melee's?

Lastly, what do you mean about D-tilt? A sourspot hitbox?

 

[PsychoGhost]

Is there a video of the egglay bug?

Improving Fair would make it stupidly good. It's already a good move, no need to make it stronger.

Can do you have a video showing how the angles differ from melee's?

Lastly, what do you mean about D-tilt? A sourspot hitbox?

Thank you for the quick response!

I'll try to record a video of the egglay bug.

F-air is a great move, but in comparison to the rest of the cast, Yoshi doesn't get many follow-ups for landing an on-stage meteor at low percentages.

Melee has even more flexible angles, where you can throw one almost on top of Yoshi, which would help a lot with ECEs and general use of the move.

Maybe a sourspot hitbox, but I'm main looking for the hurtboxes to be fixed, along with the rest troubling moves' wonky hurtboxes.

What do you think about the rest of the changes?

@ pugwishbone17 @burntsocks @ TomBoComBo @ Mumbo what do you all think? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts!

 

[Scatz]

I don't understand about Fair. It's one where the timing is tight as low percents (mostly leaving a 50/50) to giving you easy time to confirm a kill move on it. It even wrecks CC, and is -1 on shield. At low percents, it often leads to to DJC Uair, which allows him to skip playing the mid game percent (straight to 70-90), which then leads to a chances for another Fair into a techchase.

I think the main thing about eggs is the difference between exploding and not. Not exploding requires more accuracy since we can't cover space like how Melee eggs are performed.

I haven't looked into PSA about this one, but if it's what I believe, then the hitboxes could be along the Z-axis.

 

[PsychoGhost]

I don't understand about Fair. It's one where the timing is tight as low percents (mostly leaving a 50/50) to giving you easy time to confirm a kill move on it. It even wrecks CC, and is -1 on shield. At low percents, it often leads to to DJC Uair, which allows him to skip playing the mid game percent (straight to 70-90), which then leads to a chances for another Fair into a techchase.

I think the main thing about eggs is the difference between exploding and not. Not exploding requires more accuracy since we can't cover space like how Melee eggs are performed.

I haven't looked into PSA about this one, but if it's what I believe, then the hitboxes could be along the Z-axis.

The eggs now are great! I love using them, but if it had even more flexibility, I'd love to see how it'd work out in 3.6's current environment. Similar to F-air's L-cancelled landing lag being reduced by a small amount.

Also, I asked what pooch felt Yoshi needs, just to get a few more ideas thrown around and here's what he said:

"Yoshi needs a better method of dealing with projectiles, because in his current state, he has no means of beating solid laser camping or circle camping in general.

I would increase his ground speed, as well as make his double jump come out faster. This allows him to cover more space on the ground and also get to top platform in a reasonable amount of time, while not really breaking his design in a manner that would make him hard to deal with for most of the cast.

Double jump armor would probably have to be changed (i.e. his weight gets lowered again) but I genuinely think that it wouldn't matter that much if he wasn't getting camped as hard in the first place."

Thoughts?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ PsychoGhost
I kinda forgot, maybe tonight. Earlier in the thread there is some pictures showing it off, I just was seeing if I could get more extreme examples. Also, the dtilt hurtboxes are intended. Based off bbrawlbox and I think Tombo back in 3.0 I thought the hurtboxes were supposed to be gone but they aren't. That actually works normally.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Hey guys, this is frame 31 of Yoshi's down tilt running at 1/4x speed, where frame 32 is the first active hitbox frame. This is why Yoshi gets grabbed/hit/janked.

tl;dr: I think the game processes hitbox collisions at probably 4x the speed than is actually shown. Yoshi is hit in between frame 7 and 8 during a part of the animation we can't see at 1x speed

 

[PsychoGhost]

Hey guys, this is frame 31 of Yoshi's down tilt running at 1/4x speed, where frame 32 is the first active hitbox frame. This is why Yoshi gets grabbed/hit/janked.

tl;dr: I think the game processes hitbox collisions at probably 4x the speed than is actually shown. Yoshi is hit in between frame 7 and 8 during a part of the animation we can't see at 1x speed

Could you let me know what you think about my potential Yoshi changes I posted in the Reddit link above? I feel that Yoshi needs his animations updated then, as they are difficult to anticipate the hurtboxes and hitboxes as a Yoshi player.

 

[Getsafe]

Momentary detail, imagine if we could JC grounded down b like bowser

OP as ****. Want even though it won't happen and we really don't need it lol

 

[Scatz]

Plz. As much unrealistic stuff is in PM, I'd like to keep Yoshi realistic to his video game series.

 

[Getsafe]

Plz. As much unrealistic stuff is in PM, I'd like to keep Yoshi realistic to his video game series.

Haha that's why I said just imagine.

He would actually have pretty amazing shield pressure


could do sick stuff like:
grounded Fair, down B start up hitbox, DJC Fair fast fall Nair/tech chase (LOL)

Down b into Dair, etc.

Plus it would make the move so much less committal and therefore low risk high reward.

Obviously has no place in the game, but it would be a fun PSA to mess around with

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Hey guys, this is frame 31 of Yoshi's down tilt running at 1/4x speed, where frame 32 is the first active hitbox frame. This is why Yoshi gets grabbed/hit/janked.

tl;dr: I think the game processes hitbox collisions at probably 4x the speed than is actually shown. Yoshi is hit in between frame 7 and 8 during a part of the animation we can't see at 1x speed

I don't get what the point of this is. If the next frame hitboxes of an opponent collide with the hurtboxes of Yoshi dtilt on frame 8, it would result in a clang (or a transcendant hitbox would hit the tail hurtboxes). So while the game does "look ahead" and detects whether the movement in hurtboxes/hitboxes will result in a hit/clang/etc and doesn't show the movement and skips to hitlag/clang/etc instead, it doesn't really matter if we can see inbetween frames as it calculates off the next frame. And in this instance it is irrelevant since a clang is inevitable in most cases.

@ PsychoGhost

Here is the older picture I got. Later tonight I'll see if I can get a more extreme example, but this is what I posted earlier in the thread. I also attached what Brawl Box shows the hurtboxes as. I know BrawlBox isn't always accurate, but with the in game picture I think its a fair argument to make that what is shown in BB is in fact happening in game as well.

 

[PsychoGhost]

@ PsychoGhost

Here is the older picture I got. Later tonight I'll see if I can get a more extreme example, but this is what I posted earlier in the thread. I also attached what Brawl Box shows the hurtboxes as. I know BrawlBox isn't always accurate, but with the in game picture I think its a fair argument to make that what is shown in BB is in fact happening in game as well.

That's extremely weird. I at least would like to see Yoshi's hurtboxes tweaked in the future as that's confusing for both the Yoshi player and your opponent.

What do you think of my potential changes for Yoshi? Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comm..._discussion_thread_90_91015_using_the/cux01p8

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Disclaimer, I am not actually a Yoshi main. I mess around with all (wink wink) the cool/fun characters so Yoshi is in that group (oddly enough at times I put more time testing other character stuff than Squirtle stuff...).

-No comment on egg arcs. I don't know enough Yoshi to know the pros/cons of that. Not outright against it, just don't know.
-Just looked into the eyes, it doesn't appear that there is actually any difference in hurtbox issues and its merely an animation quirk. I attached a pic below showing ivy jab going right throw the eyes.
-I don't Fair landing lag needs to be changed. I think its in line (or better) with other over the head style forward airs like Mario and DK. Considering all this move does for Yoshi (meteor so it beats cc and combos well, safe on shield due to absurd damage, tech chases into more absurd damage), I would be careful buffing it. If this is the area to buff, buff its speed as it is around frame 16. Because of djc, you can usually mix it up with nair and other options, but speed is what its lacking. I don't personally think any change is necessary here though.
-No comment on down b, don't know enough
-I approve of the egg roll change. Its so pitiful now, though I don't see it happening.
-Bug fixes are always good.
-Egg lay. I don't personally play against humans a whole lot (changing in a couple weeks as a college has a weekly starting up soon), but these changes seem too good? Unless solid mashing prevents all guarenteed followups, it would let you place a dair on the egg and breaking out would do nothing. Easy 30 damage right there. Idk what to do with this though. Perhaps a proponent of this move would be better at discussing this idea as I don't know enough for either side (whats good now vs the ramifications of this change.
-Already said the hurtboxes are normal, but perhaps some reasoning for the body hitbox thing? Is there no body hitbox or is this a change to a body hitbox?
-Shield bug fix is good
-Bair hurtboxes fix plz. Someone in this thread (?), in hopes of a better neutral, was asking for a buffs to bair. I don't remember if it was just hurtbox fix or other things. Using the move mid combo against cpu's seems to combo well, so maybe this is all it needs.
-Egg lay grab boxes bug fix, bug fixes are always good.

*edit* I didn't actually attach the pic, smh. Also, you can waveland/dj out of bair. 3 frames of leniency for both the bair and WL/jump. Actually, 2 frames for the jump otherwise you djl.

 

[pugwishbone17]

I don't get what the point of this is. If the next frame hitboxes of an opponent collide with the hurtboxes of Yoshi dtilt on frame 8, it would result in a clang (or a transcendant hitbox would hit the tail hurtboxes). So while the game does "look ahead" and detects whether the movement in hurtboxes/hitboxes will result in a hit/clang/etc and doesn't show the movement and skips to hitlag/clang/etc instead, it doesn't really matter if we can see inbetween frames as it calculates off the next frame. And in this instance it is irrelevant since a clang is inevitable in most cases.

http://gfycat.com/JampackedAdoredAztecant

There are really dumb looking things to come out of this that would be avoided if there were an active hitbox. A clank is much better than being straight out beaten with an invisible hurtbox

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ PsychoGhost
I dont know if you saw my comment since I didn't tag you, so ill tag you now.

@ pugwishbone17

I think you misunderstood what I meant. The frames that you can see because of 1/4 speed are irrelevant. I could be wrong, but I'm almost positive the game looks at frame 8 of dtilt in that GIF. So while going into 1/4 speed might make it easier to see a frame closer to where the game consider the hit, its unnecessary. I'll try to explain the situation one more time. If it doesn't work, I will recreate the scenario in that GIF for you.

So, Lucas is on the edge. You try to dtilt (presumably to hit a ledgedash?). Frame 7 of your dtilt. Pk thunder is out and moving towards you. Before it shows frame 8 of your dtilt and the next frame of pk thunder, it thinks ahead and sees if there will be collision. It does this every frame. It checks where dtilt hurtboxes and hitboxes will be, as well as where pk thunder hitboxes will be. It finds that pk thunder will hit the hurtboxes. Since it can't clang, the hitboxes dont matter (?). It then proceeds to show yoshi in hitlag and Lucas on his next frame. I dont think this is unique to Yoshi, dtilt just happens to move an absurd amount between 2 frames. There are supposed to be hurtboxes on the move which is why I thought the move was bugged. Fairly certain this is just due to the motion of dtilt over the course of 1 frame. Same with the Ganondorf/Falcon up b jank and that Peach picture I made.

 

[pugwishbone17]

@ PsychoGhost
I dont know if you saw my comment since I didn't tag you, so ill tag you now.

@ pugwishbone17

I think you misunderstood what I meant. The frames that you can see because of 1/4 speed are irrelevant. I could be wrong, but I'm almost positive the game looks at frame 8 of dtilt in that GIF. So while going into 1/4 speed might make it easier to see a frame closer to where the game consider the hit, its unnecessary. I'll try to explain the situation one more time. If it doesn't work, I will recreate the scenario in that GIF for you.

So, Lucas is on the edge. You try to dtilt (presumably to hit a ledgedash?). Frame 7 of your dtilt. Pk thunder is out and moving towards you. Before it shows frame 8 of your dtilt and the next frame of pk thunder, it thinks ahead and sees if there will be collision. It does this every frame. It checks where dtilt hurtboxes and hitboxes will be, as well as where pk thunder hitboxes will be. It finds that pk thunder will hit the hurtboxes. Since it can't clang, the hitboxes dont matter (?). It then proceeds to show yoshi in hitlag and Lucas on his next frame. I dont think this is unique to Yoshi, dtilt just happens to move an absurd amount between 2 frames. There are supposed to be hurtboxes on the move which is why I thought the move was bugged. Fairly certain this is just due to the motion of dtilt over the course of 1 frame. Same with the Ganondorf/Falcon up b jank and that Peach picture I made.

Alright I think I get what you're saying, moves that would beat the hitbox are going to hit anyway and that it's really just a matter of being a really unpolished animation. But it sometimes doesn't seem like that's just the case, like the times where a command grab teleports you without even taking grab armor damage. Shouldn't aerials trade with it anyway instead of straight up beating it out? That's to say if the hitbox is actually still placed like in the peach picture.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Mumbo Random, but a few people at UF's GatorLan including Prof, I think he was one of them, put in a good word about your Yoshi to me. If you ever come up to NFL I'll show you a combo that will blow your mind. Watching a bit of your play I think you'd be the perfect Yoshi to use it, since you seem to like DJ rising aerials more than I. I'm pretty sure it's 100% not optimal on fastfallers, but you get more damage than taking the easier route and people will think you're a god. It's very doable, but I'd rather show you in person or I'll just a video on it in the months to come.

 

[TomBoComBo]

you could describe it

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I will TomBoComBo when the time comes. I want to finish optimizing it and plan on making a video with relevant percents and who it will work on. I forgot you were active even though you told me lol, and I think you'd definitely like to see this, regardless of whether it's optimal or not.

By the way, can you tell me if this is true or not, because I'd assume you'd know. From my testing, Yoshi can down-throw Wolf and he is guaranteed a true combo walk to down smash with Wolf using MAXIMUM DI at percents that would easily kill a Wolf DI-ing away or even inwards if you know how to edge-guard with eggs or grab ledge lol. This is most likely because of the difference in BKB and KBG between melee and PM of yoshi's D-throw (4 dmg 120/20 vs. 6 dmg 90/25). If this is so, I'm thinking Yoshi's d-throw <might> be broken in PM. I had my friend who plays ZSS try to DI out of my down throw at high percents, and down-throw to n-air always worked and killed depending on stage positioning. Regardless of whether or not it's broken (as of now, it doesn't seem too broken, but follow-ups are extremely easy), it makes me sad playing "braindead" when it comes to grab follow-ups, at least on Wolf and ZSS (d-throw nair almost works on almost everyone I played last Sat.). I played a wolf on Saturday and got nearly every kill on him with d-throw+d-smash, and he wasn't too happy about that and neither was I. I don't mind tech chasing all the fast fallers of the game either, but it's sort of lame when it becomes easier (I'd argue more optimal and practical) than d-throw to djc n-air to regrab which works perfectly on characters like poor DK. I know this isn't melee, and I don't want it to be, but at percents where i'd normally try to d-throw u-air fox (15-35 ish), it'd be more optimal d-throw tech chase regrab, tech chase d-smash, U-tilt, or U-smash, which is just sort of lame in my opinion. At 0-22% in melee you can djc n-air and regrab, but for fox in PM, he falls so fast I feel it's not practical going for. That being said, I have a feeling d-throw to U-airs might work better against MK, Diddy, Lucas, and Roy, but I'll test that out and let you all know.

What do you think? Do you think Yoshi plays brain-dead/easy in PM or not so much? I'm pretty conflicted myself on this question, but I think no one has taken Yoshi far yet in PM, so it's possible advanced tech is waiting :/.

 

[Scatz]

As I said back in my post about Yoshi's design, Yoshi's D-throw is immensely overcentralizing his overall gameplay.

 

[Feral Cadence]

A lot of why I picked up Yoshi in PM was because of how creative and unorthodox you could be with his move set. It wasn't until relatively recently that I realized that all the cool stuff I was doing was either sub optimal (at best) or dangerously risky (most of the time). Meanwhile, I picked up Melee Yoshi, and I saw that you HAVE to play creatively unorthodox in order to succeed with him there. I've been playing a lot slower since then, and it makes playing Yoshi kind of boring. Considering the technical struggles of changing the Brawl engine in regards to shield mechanics and invincibility, it's understandable that Yoshi has been homogenized to the extent that he has been, but it's a little sad to see our little dinosaur as just another part of the crowd.

Something that I think Nintendo did better with Melee than the PMDT is doing with PM is character balancing across varying skill levels. PM is way more balanced at the highest levels of play, of course, but at anything below that, certain characters obviously dominate. Yoshi is right now a character that can dominate lower-mid level play, to the point where a lot of my scene thinks he's completely broken, while having very little to do with high-level meta. Melee Ganon is a bit of a noob slayer, but Yoshi can just 0-death you incredibly easily with only a couple of moves. And that's true of a handful of the PM cast right now, unfortunately.

To answer your question, Yoshi isn't brain dead compared to most of the cast in PM, but he's certainly brain dead compared to his Melee incarnation.

 

[boodah]

Feral Cadence

What cool stuff did you find was sub optimal or risky? i got into smash in 2013 and have been playing melee yoshi since. ive been playing pm around the same time but super casually until about a month ago. I right away see the differences in the two and im not sure if i wanna play pm yoshi , but im interested in hearing from someone whos already playing this character. Also i do too feel like he has to be played at a slower pace then melee, but at the same time is that a bad thing? in melee even with his crazy tech and abilities hes still a pretty bad character in the grand scheme of things. i feel in pm yoshi is a completely different beast but in the grand scheme is still just a bad dinosaur lol and so still struggles the same even tho he has to be played differently

 

[Getsafe]

If you think melee doesn't have characters that dominate at lower levels you obviously haven't played sheik or Zelda lol

 

[Feral Cadence]

boodah

When you start playing someone with the ability to DJC, it gets tempting to use it all the time in neutral, as if it's this crazy tech that nobody could ever read or react to. I still have a problem trying to DJC at higher percents when it isn't completely safe, and it often leads to my death.

Rising aerials are up there too. They're fun, especially coming up from the ledge if you can catch your opponent off guard, but they're extremely dangerous.

As far as just sub-optimal is concerned, I find I overuse u-air when most other moves would lead to an edge guard or kill.

Yoshi is a different beast than in Melee, but most people here agree that he isn't nearly as bad as most of the community think he is. IMO, I think Yoshi is pretty viable in Melee, but his skill floor is leagues above everyone else. In PM, his d-throw is borderline broken, and he has some of the best gimping tools in the game. Don't decide not to play him just because you think he's a bad dinosaur. If his play style works for you, he's a great choice.

Just be careful transitioning between Melee and PM if you play Yoshi in both. He's different, but not different enough that it won't mess up your tech skill between the two.

 

[Feral Cadence]

As far as speed of play is concerned, he can definitely be just as fast in PM as in Melee. Just get used to not having a counter.

 

[AngryPiratehat]

Idk if this has been mentioned or taken care of yet (and honestly i'm not willing to read through 27 pages of this thread to find out), but do we have a discord channel or something?

 

[PsychoGhost]

Idk if this has been mentioned or taken care of yet (and honestly i'm not willing to read through 27 pages of this thread to find out), but do we have a discord channel or something?

There's a Yoshi Facebook group called 20EggsEggs message me and I can add you to it.

 

[TomBoComBo]

this thread and smashboards is dead, the FB group is where everything happens now