The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[TheGravyTrain]

So I did further testing, there are hurtboxes through the whole tail during dtilt hit frames... Only aerials, transcendant hitboxes, and specials (while done in the air?) can hit them though, so onstage we should be fine for its primary use.

 

[Damp]

Really? Because I asked calebral about it during his AMA and he said that he will look into it. Maybe it'll take some time,,,

This was the official release for 3.6 though, so we have to basically wait for 4.0 now.

 

[Mumbo]

So I did further testing, there are hurtboxes through the whole tail during dtilt hit frames... Only aerials, transcendant hitboxes, and specials (while done in the air?) can hit them though, so onstage we should be fine for its primary use.

What? You realize that shffls are most character's primary approach right?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Even if it functioned properly, it would still suck vs shuffle approaches. Its hitbox coverage is bad for that. Its good for poking people out of DD without worrying about losing trades, cc, or shields. Just like Marth dtilt.

 

[Deleted member]

Talked to PMDT member yesterday who said they know about the roll glitch. These things aren't easy to fix. This is a fan-made game. You aren't owed anything.
Dtilt is godlike. Not sure why it would need to be buffed even though it's hurtbox properties are weird. It's already a ridiculously good move.

Anyone going to Paragon? Unfortunately I go back to college this week so I won't be able to make it, which sucks because I think I could do well. It'd be cool to see another yoshi do work if any are going.

 

[Damp]

Talked to PMDT member yesterday who said they know about the roll glitch. These things aren't easy to fix. This is a fan-made game. You aren't owed anything.

So why advertise 3.6 full as a bugfix patch when bugs weren't fixed?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So why advertise 3.6 full as a bugfix patch when bugs weren't fixed?

Bugs happen in full releases of games all the time. Why discuss the game if you are just gonna be salty and rude at every opportunity? If you are so clearly unhappy with the devs/game/your character, exercise your choice to move on with your life.

 

[Damp]

Bugs happen in full releases of games all the time. Why discuss the game if you are just gonna be salty and rude at every opportunity? If you are so clearly unhappy with the devs/game/your character, exercise your choice to move on with your life.

How am I being rude? They took the time to completely remake an entire character, yet they left glaring bugs in the game. They could've just delayed the release until they got most of the gameplay affecting bugs out.

 

[Deleted member]

...Seriously. You are constantly negative, and you make these forums very unfun. Which sucks because it should be a cool place to talk about an awesome character in what I think is an awesome game. And all I get is you nitpicking every sentence, demonstrating a poor understanding of the game, and being not very pleasant.

You can't really think the yoshi roll bug is a game-changing bug, can you? Just wave dash out of shield instead! Toon link would literally taunt instead of foward smash for months!!! That patch took ages!!!! Yoshi has a slight delay on dropping shield after a roll!!!

Edit: And passive aggressive rhetorical questions to someone unaffiliated with the PMDT is rude.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

How am I being rude? They took the time to completely remake an entire character, yet they left glaring bugs in the game. They could've just delayed the release until they got most of the gameplay affecting bugs out.

You completely disregard and discredit a lot of hard work from the PMDT members simply for the love of the community. The do this for free and for no money. You get the game and all of its content for no money. Maybe a little bit of gratitude and thankfulness? Your attitude and how you talk isn't very productive for discussion. I'm not a Yoshi main, so maybe this bugs are really that frustrating, but I imagine you could be a bit more positive and at least a little less cynical and outright confrontational about everything. Also I would say this is pretty rude: http://smashboards.com/threads/3-6b-yoshis-useless-eggroll.409159/

 

[Mumbo]

...Seriously. You are constantly negative, and you make these forums very unfun. Which sucks because it should be a cool place to talk about an awesome character in what I think is an awesome game. And all I get is you nitpicking every sentence, demonstrating a poor understanding of the game, and being not very pleasant.

You can't really think the yoshi roll bug is a game-changing bug, can you? Just wave dash out of shield instead! Toon link would literally taunt instead of foward smash for months!!! That patch took ages!!!! Yoshi has a slight delay on dropping shield after a roll!!!

Edit: And passive aggressive rhetorical questions to someone unaffiliated with the PMDT is rude.

Again i need to mention that roll out of shield is an invaluable tool, it cannot be replaced by wavedashing, and it is a game changing bug, especially when games can be so close and when Yoshi is a character with a bad neutral game who relies on getting one opening to land a huge punish.

But I agree that everyone needs to be polite in the presentation of these bugs.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah rolling is a great tool and its a crappy bug. But I'm pretty sure most of us aren't being robbed of income because a shield takes sligjtly longer to drop. Again, that's taking away from my point.
If you are losing because of the roll bug, there are probably problems in your game that you actually can control that would make you win that same match. Doesn't mean it's not an issue.

 

[Mumbo]

Yeah rolling is a great tool and its a crappy bug. But I'm pretty sure most of us aren't being robbed of income because a shield takes sligjtly longer to drop. Again, that's taking away from my point.
If you are losing because of the roll bug, there are probably problems in your game that you actually can control that would make you win that same match. Doesn't mean it's not an issue.

You can always do things better. The very best player in the world playing at their very best can always do things better. The fact of the matter is this bug actually can and has decided games and its a good idea to make the pmdt very aware of the issue. Parry glitch never got fixed until i posted a thread on reddit about it. Sethlon mentioned never knowing about the bug, citing his several games with hamyojo, and i had to point out an instance of it happening IN ONE OF SETHLON'S GAMES. What came of that? well it was fixed in 3.6!

PMDT doesnt care about yoshi's, because there aren't many of them and no one gets notable placings with the character. They do listen to all the scrubs who complain about the character, and what happens? yoshi gets nerfed to the ground in 3.6. This is why we have to be very vocal (although polite).

Sheik was finally not a degenerate character for once in a smash game. Then a few very vocal very angry (and partially "in with pmdt") sheik mains ******* and now we have the mess that is sheik once again.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Speaking of the shield, can somebody explain the shield changes. They made it so the nose is invincible. How does this help? Does invincibility not have the same issues intangibility does? Also, I think I've heard people talk about the shield not having start up (or something to that affect). Was that a 3.6 change?

 

[666blaziken]

I agree with both gravy train and burnt socks about damp's attitude. Like there are multiple times where he has accused the pmdt of being biased against yoshi, which is extremely rude and messed up. No solid evidence is shown as yoshi has some favorable matchups, just some bad physics bugs. I think it's also a paradoxal statement to accuse a balancing team of bias because TECHNICALLY when they nerf characters, they show bias to op characters and nerf them for that bias. In other words, there HAS to be bias when balancing a fighting game. So when people accuse the PMDT of being bias, they are being bias themselves by NOT complaining about the PMDT nerfing the op characters, but complaining about nerfs to their own characters... Think about that for a sec.

 

[Mumbo]

I agree with both gravy train and burnt socks about damp's attitude. Like there are multiple times where he has accused the pmdt of being biased against yoshi, which is extremely rude and messed up. No solid evidence is shown as yoshi has some favorable matchups, just some bad physics bugs. I think it's also a paradoxal statement to accuse a balancing team of bias because TECHNICALLY when they nerf characters, they show bias to op characters and nerf them for that bias. In other words, there HAS to be bias when balancing a fighting game. So when people accuse the PMDT of being bias, they are being bias themselves by NOT complaining about the PMDT nerfing the op characters, but complaining about nerfs to their own characters... Think about that for a sec.

I don't think you quite understand bias, at least not in the context damp is using it. You don't need bias to balance a fighting game, balance can do nothing but hinder progress towards true balance.

One of the problems with PMDT imo is that they listen too much to the community and make decisions based on that rather than whats best for the game. Its pretty clear to nearly everyone that fox is extremely powerful, has few losing matchups, and has several essentially unfair matchups (v slow characters that cant chase lasers or chars that dont have oos options) but he has yet to be nerfed meaningfully. Same story with several of the other melee top tiers. Its pretty clear they dont want to nerf these chars because a rather large portion of the playerbase plays them and an even larger playerbase they desperately want to play their game (melee players) like them. When it comes to characters like yoshi and bowser, who were never top tier and had fairly small playerbases, pmdt tends to listen to the non yoshis and non bowsers complaints because they tend to be oppressive characters towards people who dont understand the matchups. Some people cite "bad design" but peach's dsmash/turnips, marth's grab/dair, sheik's grab shenanigans, cfal's autocombos/throws, and anything in fox or falco's kit doesnt exactly scream good design either.

The point im trying to make (not in particular to you blaziken) is COMPLAIN. Complaining gets **** done. Don't get angry when other yoshi players complain BECAUSE IT IS A GOOD THING. Nobody gives a **** about the "reputation of yoshis" so stop trying to protect. It's also important to note being a **** does NOT GET **** DONE so stop doing it.

 

[Damp]

So everyone here except Mumbo and I would rather play a broken character near the bottom of the tier list instead of complaining about it (like all of the other characters' players) just so you don't come off as rude to PMDT? That makes no sense. I think the biggest issue is that there is no Yoshi player with an 'in' to the PMDT. Like, how did Sheik get her 50/50 throw trap back? How did Bowser get completely redone? Somebody who plays those characters has a direct link to PMDT. We don't. And that's where the bias comes from.

 

[Damp]

Speaking of the shield, can somebody explain the shield changes. They made it so the nose is invincible. How does this help? Does invincibility not have the same issues intangibility does? Also, I think I've heard people talk about the shield not having start up (or something to that affect). Was that a 3.6 change?

The invincibility basically does nothing, because most attacks are not going to hit just on your nose. And Yoshi's shield comes out on frame 6 I believe, while every single other shield in the game comes out frame 1.

 

[pugwishbone17]

So everyone here except Mumbo and I would rather play a broken character near the bottom of the tier list instead of complaining about it (like all of the other characters' players) just so you don't come off as rude to PMDT?

We all want Yoshi to be better, the difference here is that your attitude is actual cancer because all you do is talk in hyperbole and insults to PMDT.

 

[Deleted member]

Mumbo you are misunderstanding me and you are obviously not the problem. Complain, tell the PMDT as much as you can whatever. If there are bugs, they should be fixed. And people should be vocal to let the PMDT know. But don't conflate complaint about bugs with complaints about design by people who don't understand the character at a high
level.

Yoshi shouldn't be anywhere near the bottom of the tier list, sorry Damp. Bowser was trash tier

 

[Scatz]

Dismissing this conversation as I want no part of this, the stuck in shield portion is a minor issue when looking at how it's caused and what you can/can't do about it.

Yoshi only gets stuck in shield due to holding a shield input for longer than his roll. He can utilize any option he normaly has available outside of simply releasing shield.

They made his nose intangible to allow Yoshi to not get hit during his shielding animation. His nose sticks outside of the shield until he's fully in it.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

You seem to be under the impression that in order to try and gets what Yoshi needs in terms of fixes you need to be whiny, rude, and really annoying on the topic of Yoshi. I think this is a better way to handle it. Doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they do and say and not get mad ever, it just seems like a perpetual thing and its just depressing.

As for the shield. In the past I thought it had 6 frames of startup that facilitated parry's. In the limited use I had, it still had a 6 frame animation, but it would powershield much earlier then that.

 

[Scatz]

It still has the 6 frame startup. Yoshi can't jump out of the animation despite being able to powershield. I haven't went into the specifics for figuring it out.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Hey Yoshi guys:

Can any of you shed any light on this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3he3kb/yoshi_glitch_in_36/

Been trying to reproduce for a good half hour now, but the steps aren't clear enough.
Currently it's in the 'unable to reproduce - more details needed' column of my to do list. I'd like to progress it further, but im not getting any replies on how to recreate the bug consistently.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey Yoshi guys:

Can any of you shed any light on this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3he3kb/yoshi_glitch_in_36/

Been trying to reproduce for a good half hour now, but the steps aren't clear enough.
Currently it's in the 'unable to reproduce - more details needed' column of my to do list. I'd like to progress it further, but im not getting any replies on how to recreate the bug consistently.

it's possible the guy held down by accident

 

[Narpas_sword]

That's exactly what I'm thinking.
User error - not a bug.

I got 50 Stalls in a row, on both edges without an issue.

If you guys find anything further, be sure to report it on the forums here, I'm more likely to see it than on Reddit.

Thanks

 

[Scatz]

I'll do some testing later tonight when I get home.

edit: On second thought, I think it might be him trying to use it as fast as it is in melee, where he could maintain full invincibility from doing it quickly. IIRC, PM Yoshi has a set amount of time before he can grab the ledge again.

 

[Narpas_sword]

With debug on, and ledge grab boxes, it's pretty easy to see how high out of the DJ you need to be before you can reach the edge after dropping DJ.


Frame - Action

0 - Grab Edge
8 - Able to let go of edge
9 - DJ
20 - Down B
37 - Grabs Edge

 

[Mumbo]

Mumbo you are misunderstanding me and you are obviously not the problem. Complain, tell the PMDT as much as you can whatever. If there are bugs, they should be fixed. And people should be vocal to let the PMDT know. But don't conflate complaint about bugs with complaints about design by people who don't understand the character at a high
level.

Yoshi shouldn't be anywhere near the bottom of the tier list, sorry Damp. Bowser was trash tier

Oh I absolutely realize I'm not a problem and I want to make it very clear I disapprove of Damp's attitude, but I've been seeing some people get the idea that we shouldn't complain at all, especially since Yoshis have been met with a lot of negative feedback, even when they present their ideas politely. Also, please nobody take drinkingfood seriously. He's a good player but he shows up every time Yoshi buffs are mentioned to pretend he knows what hes talking about and maliciously dismiss anyone that disagrees with him.

 

[-Maddox-]

I think it would be pretty chill if the PMDT buffed Yoshi's air dodge. Currently the air dodge has 21 or 22 frames of end lag before the ledge grab boxes come out, some other characters (like Metaknight) only have about 10 or 11 frames of end lag, making it much easier to grab the ledge with it.

If you're looking for a low-key buff.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i don't look at character balance at all. I Test and record bugs only

 

[TomBoComBo]

i don't look at character balance at all. I Test and record bugs only

I've been told that you guys are aware of the "trapped-in-shield" glitch that Yoshi has, I'm curious to know what causes it and/or how it can be fixed.

 

[Narpas_sword]

We are still looking into that.

 

[TomBoComBo]

We are still looking into that.

was just wondering. Thank you

 

[theOVEN]

props to @ Narpas_sword for providing some feedback, these boards (from what I've seen and I lurk a lot) have the least amount of purple posts of any character board, so it's good to have some official presence. Not a john, just being objective.

from what we've seen, yoshi's dtilt and bair hurtboxes and momentum during eggroll are not officially considered bugs, just elements of the character, and eggroll momentum hasn't been restored to 3.5 but at least appears to be consistent now (can now gain momentum from eggroll wavebounce with no DJ input, in 3.6b if you had enough horizontal momentum in the opposite direction from the direction you were attempting to wavebounce eggroll in and were out of jumps you wouldn't go anywhere but now you can, this wasn't indicated in 3.6b>3.6 changelog but I've tested personally and it appears to have parity now). A few other outstanding bugs I've noticed, maybe @ Narpas_sword or another DT member who's involved with bug testing//awareness could comment on these? All of these have easy repro in case they need to be tested, just ask.

• trapped-in-shield glitch where you're unable to jump OOS after rolling
• jump nair OOS input results in grab OOS (could be an issue with buffer and shield stun)
• topN location during eggroll, even if you have your second jump restored by touching the ground with eggroll, occasionally if you're hit directly out of the move you're unable to re-use eggroll to gain horizontal momentum if you choose not to use your DJ before egg rolling again
• yoshi can be shield poked regardless of parry window (I believe @Strong Bad is aware of this)
  
• yoshi cannot reverse ledgegrab out of yoshi bomb if he starts the move on the ground and is extremely close to the ledge
  
• armor interaction with weight reduction (again could be intentional but I believe armor strength may have been intended to be tuned so that it functions the same with the weight nerf)

don't forget, they did fix the yoshi bomb stars bug and ECE window. Progress is being made.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Hey real quick can we talk about how bad the aerial neutral b's first active hitbox placement is?

cuz I truly do completely enjoy missing this move at point blank. In fact, comparing it to the grounded version, the first active frames are identical with the fat purple grabbox being Yoshi's mouth hitbox, so something tells me this was wrongly programmed here.

 

[Mumbo]

props to @ Narpas_sword for providing some feedback, these boards (from what I've seen and I lurk a lot) have the least amount of purple posts of any character board, so it's good to have some official presence. Not a john, just being objective.

from what we've seen, yoshi's dtilt and bair hurtboxes and momentum during eggroll are not officially considered bugs, just elements of the character, and eggroll momentum hasn't been restored to 3.5 but at least appears to be consistent now (can now gain momentum from eggroll wavebounce with no DJ input, in 3.6b if you had enough horizontal momentum in the opposite direction from the direction you were attempting to wavebounce eggroll in and were out of jumps you wouldn't go anywhere but now you can, this wasn't indicated in 3.6b>3.6 changelog but I've tested personally and it appears to have parity now). A few other outstanding bugs I've noticed, maybe @ Narpas_sword or another DT member who's involved with bug testing//awareness could comment on these? All of these have easy repro in case they need to be tested, just ask.

• trapped-in-shield glitch where you're unable to jump OOS after rolling
• jump nair OOS input results in grab OOS (could be an issue with buffer and shield stun)
• topN location during eggroll, even if you have your second jump restored by touching the ground with eggroll, occasionally if you're hit directly out of the move you're unable to re-use eggroll to gain horizontal momentum if you choose not to use your DJ before egg rolling again
• yoshi can be shield poked regardless of parry window (I believe @Strong Bad is aware of this)
  
• yoshi cannot reverse ledgegrab out of yoshi bomb if he starts the move on the ground and is extremely close to the ledge
  
• armor interaction with weight reduction (again could be intentional but I believe armor strength may have been intended to be tuned so that it functions the same with the weight nerf)

don't forget, they did fix the yoshi bomb stars bug and ECE window. Progress is being made.

How did they fix ECE? does IASA affect when you can grab the ledge?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So apparently dtilt is supposed to have hurtboxes... I officially hate BrawlBox.

@ theOVEN How are Bair hurtboxes a part of the character? I cannot fathom why something so illogical is hurtboxes spinning around off of the tail is at all desired. Sure, BrawlBox lied about the tail hurtboxes, but I posted some pictures in game showing the hurtbox distortion pretty clearly, so I think it is safe to say they are distorted like shown in BrawlBox. I can understand not being able to fix them, but claiming they are intended seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[TomBoComBo]

So apparently dtilt is supposed to have hurtboxes... I officially hate BrawlBox.

@ theOVEN How are Bair hurtboxes a part of the character? I cannot fathom why something so illogical is hurtboxes spinning around off of the tail is at all desired. Sure, BrawlBox lied about the tail hurtboxes, but I posted some pictures in game showing the hurtbox distortion pretty clearly, so I think it is safe to say they are distorted like shown in BrawlBox. I can understand not being able to fix them, but claiming they are intended seems a bit of a stretch.

the Bair hurtboxes extend past the hitboxes and exist during frames when the hitboxes aren't active. Getting beat out and even grabbed out of Bair is silly, but common

 

[theOVEN]

@ pugwishbone17 that is impressively bad, I think that might be a bug as well

@ Mumbo right, you can't perform any action during IASA frames, so less IASA+higher terminal velocity==safer and easier ECEs, you no longer have to be TAS level to be frame safe it's actually pretty exciting

@ TheGravyTrain sorry let me clarify: I'm still pretty mad that bair is as easily beatable as it is and I don't believe the hurtbox placement is good design, having hurtboxes all over the place continuously while the hitboxes only come out on <half of active frames of the move AND don't extend as far as the hurtboxes is stupid. But if the PMDT hasn't done anything at this point and the move has been the same since yoshi's release, it looks like it's something we have to either make noise about to get changed, deal with, or wait and see if it's not fixable for some reason.