The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Mumbo]

I'm just gonna casually mention that snake's Tranq breaks armor at 0

 

[theOVEN]

I'm just gonna casually mention that snake's Tranq breaks armor at 0

well ****

 

[666blaziken]

So let me get this straight, they made yoshi's double jump cancel carry momentum to make things easier to do some tech (reverse aerials) that's already useful and doable in melee, and in return it makes him a much riskier character to use, harder to land punishes due to the slowness/floatiness of landing back on the ground during the djc, and egg camping is now almost impossible due to the risk of getting hit. They also made his side b even worse than in melee since it's ability to recover has been removed. Can anyone tell me who did these changes so I can find out why they were made?

 

[Scatz]

None of us know exactly who authorized the changes. The DJC change came before Hamyojo started playing. Unless there was constant bickering about that one specific piece of tech on reddit, I've never seen any complaints about it here.

I didn't know about the difference between 3.6 eggroll and melee eggroll. I just know that the move is useless because of how badly both directional movements have been reduced.

 

[666blaziken]

None of us know exactly who authorized the changes. The DJC change came before Hamyojo started playing. Unless there was constant bickering about that one specific piece of tech on reddit, I've never seen any complaints about it here.

I didn't know about the difference between 3.6 eggroll and melee eggroll. I just know that the move is useless because of how badly both directional movements have been reduced.

melee eggroll drops yoshi like a rock and can change direction in the air if platform cancelled. It allows yoshi to suprise the opponent with it's suprising mobility. PM 3.6b side b's is just a really ****ty version of 3.02 which was supposed to help yoshi recover, but it is now literally useless for recovery due natural momentum giving you more mobility in the air. It's just bad, and while I am all for change, it has to make sense. I think maybe it's a conspiracy and that the PMDT nerfed it to uselessness so when/if they change it to melee's, people won't complain about it since they are looking at it like a buff rather than a nerf (cause melee) if it got changed to melee's in 3.6 b

 

[Damp]

Yeah, PMDT ****ed up BAD with Yoshi. I'm so glad people are finally starting to see this, and maybe I'll stop getting rude comments/messages thrown at me for criticizing PMDT's clear lack of ability to make sensible changes or maybe even their straight up bias.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow if there is a good way to tranq gimp yoshi that would be super lame.

Yoshi is improved in the majority of ways from melee. His grab is better, his throws are infinitely better (guaranteed options on almost all of the cast, including kills moves on many), having a good pivot grab is a HUGEEE buff, his combo game is one of the best in the game, a lot of his moves (including his awesome dsmash and dtilt) have improved range, his neutral B is now an amazing command grab that can yield a ton of damage off of punishes and is great as a b-reversed move. Jump out of shield is obviously the biggest change. Having an almost un-pokable shield is pretty sweet. Being able to do rising aerials makes yoshi's combo game a lot better and also improves his mobility and GREATLY improves his edgeguarding (off-stage rising nair).

Thinking a change is necessary is a fine opinion to have. I think some changes would make yoshi a better and more balanced character. But to say the PMDT messed up badly with yoshi is absolutely absurd and no one who knows smash is going to listen to that.
I can't imagine someone being able to do the basic fair -> djc uair -> uair/nair combos and believing that yoshi is badly messed up. If your punish game isn't there, winning with yoshi is going to be hard. But against most characters, one fair should be yielding BIG combo damage. One decent fair combo and maybe a dthrow/uthrow -> nair/uair/dash attack and most characters are going to be at a fairly high percentage already. Getting grabs is pretty easy, since the range is so good and you can get it off of any roll read.
Yoshi also gimps a lot of the cast well with dtilt.

Btw Scatz I started doing crouch next to opponent after egg laying them like you mentioned. So broken xD.

 

[Damp]

Wow if there is a good way to tranq gimp yoshi that would be super lame.
Yoshi also gimps a lot of the cast well with dtilt.
.

Except when, you know, his hurtbox extends way out before the hitbox and he ends up getting hit and not getting the edgeguard.

 

[Deleted member]

Here are a few good characters that get gimped or set up for easy gimps by dtilt in many situations (not all of them need to be offstage):
Falco, fox, wolf, falcon, marth, ganon, link, toon link, the list goes on.
It hugely punishes missed sweetspots. Very few characters punish a slight missed sweetspot as harshly as yoshi does.
I have no interest in claiming yoshi is better than he actually is. I use yoshi all the time in tournaments and usually do well, but I'd love to do better.

 

[Scatz]

Yep. Crouching pretty much eliminates most of the casts options outside of using a DJ to get away, or breaking out immediately. There's a few chars that have options out of it, but for the most part, it's good enough to make people be wary of using an incorrect option coming out.

Trying to remember what option Yoshi covers for down & away. Is it just Nair only?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Tier list spec thread was discussing Yoshi and me being interested in Yoshi, I contributed as well as got some pictures of different things. I'll dump them all here.
1. An attempt to show the distorted hurtbox on tail moves at work. Possibly gives some credence to the notion it is in the game and not just BrawlBox displaying it wrong
2. Frame 8 of dtilt, showing hitboxes
3. Frame 8 of dtilt, without hitboxes so you can see in fact hurtboxes are gone. The frame before, the tail is in front of Yoshi's face in the z axis, I would show it but you can only upload 3 files apparently.

This isn't to attack you @ Damp Just thought I would post it here so others could see that it isn't true that Yoshi extends his tail with hurtboxes for a frame before they go away and hitboxes come out.

 

[Mumbo]

Tier list spec thread was discussing Yoshi and me being interested in Yoshi, I contributed as well as got some pictures of different things. I'll dump them all here.
1. An attempt to show the distorted hurtbox on tail moves at work. Possibly gives some credence to the notion it is in the game and not just BrawlBox displaying it wrong
2. Frame 8 of dtilt, showing hitboxes
3. Frame 8 of dtilt, without hitboxes so you can see in fact hurtboxes are gone. The frame before, the tail is in front of Yoshi's face in the z axis, I would show it but you can only upload 3 files apparently.

This isn't to attack you @ Damp Just thought I would post it here so others could see that it isn't true that Yoshi extends his tail with hurtboxes for a frame before they go away and hitboxes come out.

But it is true. If it's not true, please explain this:
Frame 6:

Frame 7:

 

[TomBoComBo]

or the fact that gannon can grab Yoshi from the hurtbox tip

 

[Damp]

Tier list spec thread was discussing Yoshi and me being interested in Yoshi, I contributed as well as got some pictures of different things. I'll dump them all here.
1. An attempt to show the distorted hurtbox on tail moves at work. Possibly gives some credence to the notion it is in the game and not just BrawlBox displaying it wrong
2. Frame 8 of dtilt, showing hitboxes
3. Frame 8 of dtilt, without hitboxes so you can see in fact hurtboxes are gone. The frame before, the tail is in front of Yoshi's face in the z axis, I would show it but you can only upload 3 files apparently.

This isn't to attack you @ Damp Just thought I would post it here so others could see that it isn't true that Yoshi extends his tail with hurtboxes for a frame before they go away and hitboxes come out.

Try downtilting a recovering falcon or ganon.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would say that picture with Falco doesn't really say much since the game reocgnizes Yoshi being hit and doesn't show the the actual frame it hits, it skips that and puts the victim into hitlag. I chose to use Marth dtilt since if I was too close and hit, it would clank instead of sending Falco away. That is frame 7 of Yoshi dtilt (1 frame before hitboxes) and frame 7 of Marth dtilt (first frame of hitboxes. The starman lets you hit the Yoshi while seeing the frame the Yoshi would have been on had he not been hit. For reference I provided a pic where Yoshi does get hit. Its poorly made, but you can see the burst circle thing.

*edit* For clarity, when I initially responded to Damp, I thought he was referring to the tail moving out with hurtboxes, then hitboxes coming out and the tail hurtboxes going away, which is why I responded the way I did with the pictures I did. When Mumbo showed the Falco picture, I realized the discussion was about hurtbox jank like in bair (which I also showed to exist, not just a brawlbox quirk). I will start looking into Dorf grab and Falcon up b and see if those have any weird situations going on, but that marth dtilt isn't hitting the Yoshi there, so I don't think I will find anything differently. *edit*

 

[Damp]

I would say that picture with Falco doesn't really say much since the game reocgnizes Yoshi being hit and doesn't show the the actual frame it hits, it skips that and puts the victim into hitlag. I chose to use Marth dtilt since if I was too close and hit, it would clank instead of sending Falco away. That is frame 7 of Yoshi dtilt (1 frame before hitboxes) and frame 7 of Marth dtilt (first frame of hitboxes. The starman lets you hit the Yoshi while seeing the frame the Yoshi would have been on had he not been hit. For reference I provided a pic where Yoshi does get hit. Its poorly made, but you can see the burst circle thing.

*edit* For clarity, when I initially responded to Damp, I thought he was referring to the tail moving out with hurtboxes, then hitboxes coming out and the tail hurtboxes going away, which is why I responded the way I did with the pictures I did. When Mumbo showed the Falco picture, I realized the discussion was about hurtbox jank like in bair (which I also showed to exist, not just a brawlbox quirk). I will start looking into Dorf grab and Falcon up b and see if those have any weird situations going on, but that marth dtilt isn't hitting the Yoshi there, so I don't think I will find anything differently. *edit*

Dude it happens with every move. Stop trying to disprove us who have been playing Yoshi since he was put in the game. We're right.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm glad people want to contribute, but we as Yoshi mains/players already know the janky hurtboxes and interactions with Yoshi's moves. A lot of them we would love to see fixed, such as the Bair hurtboxes, the Dtilt hurtboxes, the trapped-in-shield glitch (hate that), the royzone of grab. All of these small glitches and/or interactions are part of what Yoshi is right now, none of us need to see frame data on stuff we already know, let alone have someone who hasn't played Yoshi in depth trying to disprove proven inconsistencies in the character.

 

[Damp]

the trapped-in-shield glitch (hate that)

Every time that happens to me and I try to nair OoS and get punished because of that glitch, I just want to stop playing.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm glad people want to contribute, but we as Yoshi mains/players already know the janky hurtboxes and interactions with Yoshi's moves. A lot of them we would love to see fixed, such as the Bair hurtboxes, the Dtilt hurtboxes, the trapped-in-shield glitch (hate that), the royzone of grab. All of these small glitches and/or interactions are part of what Yoshi is right now, none of us need to see frame data on stuff we already know, let alone have someone who hasn't played Yoshi in depth trying to disprove proven inconsistencies in the character.

If its proven, show me the prove. I know Yoshi has lots of glitches. I was discussing how I thought Yoshi dtilt was amazing, then Damp came into the tier list spec thread and said it was unreliable. That was the first time I had heard of it, so I looked into to it and haven't been able to reproduce it once. Hurtboxes distort in Brawl box pretty accurately it appears, but Yoshi's dtilt does not show any relevant distortion. I'm not trying to disprove things that are true, I am trying to provide my findings on things that are said to be wrong, whether they are or aren't. I looked into Ganondorf up grabbing Yoshi dtilt. It happened just like you said and it was super weird. But I also don't think that has anything to do with hurtbox distortion, seeing as if you try to attack the same spot with any standing grab or any move really, nothing happens. I don't know where this hostility is coming from towards non-Yoshi mains, but its kind of off-putting. I am just collecting evidence, not trying to attack anyone...

 

[Scatz]

Ganon and Falcon grabbing Yoshi is due to the grab box connecting with the hurtbox from Yoshi's Dtilt. We can beat the grab if we hit Ganon/Falcon before the grab box can overlap. It just looks weird cause Yoshi stretches his tail and Ganon/Falcon teleports.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

That would make sense, but nothing else can hit these supposed hurtboxes that I have seen. Yoshi's tail is intangible on frame 8, and as I've shown on frame 7 Marth's dtilt hits nothing and its almost touching Yoshi himself. Nothing seems to be able to hit this hurtbox at the end of Yoshi's tail except Dorf (and I assume Falcon as well) up b.

 

[Damp]

That would make sense, but nothing else can hit these supposed hurtboxes that I have seen. Yoshi's tail is intangible on frame 8, and as I've shown on frame 7 Marth's dtilt hits nothing and its almost touching Yoshi himself. Nothing seems to be able to hit this hurtbox at the end of Yoshi's tail except Dorf (and I assume Falcon as well) up b.

Yoshi can also get hit from fox and falco up-b if he dtilts from like halfway across fd basically.

 

[Scatz]

Those are grab boxes. Attacks that have disjoint can definitely hit the tip of his tail. It's much more common to happen on aerial attacks.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Ok, I think I figured it out. It must be that if a potential clang and a potential hit happen on the same frame, the clang happens and the hit is ignored. That is why moves like Marth dtilt can't seem to hit this weird hurtbox stuff at the end of Yoshi's tail, but Ganondorf up b can. When you said it happens with aerials a lot, it just clicked. Aerials can't clang, so if dtilt v aerial hitboxes collide, but the aerial also would hit the hurtboxes, the aerial (or aerial grab) with hit the hurtbox. Just tested with meta knight dtilt (which is transcendant) and was able to hit the hurtbox every single time since it can't clank. I'll test later and see if the whole tail has hurtboxes or if just the tip does.

If this is the case, outside of transcendent hitboxes and edgeguard stuff, this shouldn't make a huge difference. Dtilt isn't good v aerial opponents, so for onstage purposes it should be just as effective. Still should be fixed, but if the rest of the Yoshi bugs have anything to say, it probably won't.

 

[Deleted member]

What is the trapped-in-shield glitch exactly? And is it known why it happens? Does it explain accidental shield grabs instead of nairs OOS because that happens to me a lot

Thanks for the effort GravyTrain.

 

[TomBoComBo]

the trapped-in-shield glitch basically holds you in shield and all you can do it roll. It seems to happen randomly or when too many inputs are presented when in shield. I have no Idea what causes it, holding shield and jumping while still shielding should and will always make you jump, ignoring the shield input being held. But the trap glitch will keep you in shield for a small amount of time regardless of button presses and regardless of if you're still holding shield. In my play, I've learned to recognize the moments where I'm trapped and work to stay safe, coping with the glitch if anything. It has cost me stocks and games and even a tourney at one point. If anyone wants to hit the lab and try to make it happen, please do so. As far as I know, it's random and it can kill you at the wrong moments.

 

[Mumbo]

@ TomBoComBo maybe you are talking about a different glitch. When people mentioned the trapped in shield glitch I thought they were referring to when you get stuck in shield after a roll OoS for holding a trigger too long.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Too many glitches to keep track of... If I had more to go off of, I would gladly test for it. Any specific situations where it may be repeatable Tombo?

 

[pugwishbone17]

It specifically happens when you hold shield for the entire duration of the roll, and then release shield just after the roll animation has ended

 

[Deleted member]

Oh ok. I dont think that's ever happened to me. I guess I don't roll much.

 

[Mumbo]

Oh ok. I dont think that's ever happened to me. I guess I don't roll much.

Buffer roll OoS is the best and sometimes the only option out of several forms of shield pressure. That's why I mentioned it after your set v the wolf. Just remember to let go of the trigger after you start rolling.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ pugwishbone17
I was talking about the bug TomBo was describing which seems unrelated.

 

[pugwishbone17]

@ pugwishbone17
I was talking about the bug TomBo was describing which seems unrelated.

I know, I'm pretty sure this is what he was talking about. It's something that's been known since 3.0 and has been on the bug forum about a billion times and it was only just recently commented on, so it'll probably be fixed.

 

[TomBoComBo]

those split seconds matter when under high pressure

 

[666blaziken]

random question, so in 3.6b there was a problem with momentum in yoshi being carried over with his midair jump, and prevented him from egg stalling correctly. Now that 3.6 is out, the up b terminal velocity matches melee's. Does this change the way yoshi uses his midair jump? and can he now eggstall correctly without staying in the air too long? Because I am trying it and it still feels like 3.6b eggstall, and I am not sure if it's a placebo or real.

 

[Scatz]

This does not change how Yoshi's DJ functions. I'm trying to get a video to compare 3.6, 3.02, and Melee's DJ movements.

Currently, it's extremely hard due to Dolphin (3 windows) and OBS taking up tons of CPU power.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Scatz

Couldn't you record them all at separate times?

 

[Scatz]

I could, but the way the camera angles in melee and PM vary to where the different is hard to fully tell the changes on a visual level. I just used my LGP to record the 3 games simultaneously. When I wakeup + get off work, I'll write down how long they exactly take in frames at different methods of DJC.

 

[Damp]

They didn't fix anything. It's some serious bull. They don't even listen to us. Bowser gets completely redone, yet we're still ignored. So frustrating to deal with.

 

[666blaziken]

Really? Because I asked calebral about it during his AMA and he said that he will look into it. Maybe it'll take some time,,,