The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Fatmanonice]

Get Link in the air or offstage and the match is easily Mario's. Link out ranges Mario with his standard A attacks and jumping clawshot but all and all, I would say it's like Ike and not really that much of an issue if you're smart about your spacing. Link's definately not Marth, that's for sure. 65/35 Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

65/35 Mario is a bit of a stretch against Link...he can really outspace and camp people if he plays patiently. You can KO him earlier with F-smash and gimp him more consistently though, and then you're fast enough to pressure his shield since his out of shield options are all a little too slow to handle Mario's close up game. So it's like 6/4 Mario at most.

Vs Ike is like the complete opposite focus. You can really outspace and camp him if you play patiently. I call that matchup at least 6/4 Mario just because Ike is so terrible at approaching and doing anything safe, and you can juggle the crap out of him and also make his life miserable offstage with various stuff.

Fundamentally, you want to get as close to Link as possible and take away his breathing room, while against Ike, you want to stay away from him and draw out his approach.

 

[KirinBlaze]

We need to direct these people to my wall of text.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Why the sudden change in opinion?

I knew this matchup is in Mario's favor for a long time, cuz I played a lot of Link players w/ Mario, so far, I be winning most of the matches. I just make them as my training dummies for edgeguarding, camping, spamming fireballz, pullin' off new combos w/ dem, and make them fall for the same stuff way back then, but not now.

 

[Inferno3044]

We need to direct these people to my wall of text.

Click Here

This page will answer practically everything.

I believe that we are gonna go with 60:40 Mario on this unless more people object. Since A2 brought up Ike, should we discuss him or someone else?

EDIT: Is there a way to link one post? I can just do that to direct people.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike can be annoying if you have no experience against him. He has good range and does a lot of damage per hit. His Jab and F-air are good enough attacks for him to not be completely worthless.

All his approaches are punishable on reaction. Obviously, you want to fireball camp him. Get him to approach. His F-air is slow enough that you can powershield it on reaction, and your F-smash can outrange it if you time it right due to the massive leanback. Virtually everything he does in close range that isn't a retreating aerial you can Up-B or Up-smash out of shield.

Not that good Ike players will put themselves in this situation, but Quick Draw is punishable by reverse F-smash out of shield. In general well-placed F-smashes really can **** Ike just because of the ability to outrange him (In case you forgot, I've tested and reverse F-smash outranges his F-smash).

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

Mario vs Ike

Vs Ike is like the complete opposite focus. You can really outspace and camp him if you play patiently. I call that matchup at least 6/4 Mario just because Ike is so terrible at approaching and doing anything safe, and you can juggle the crap out of him and also make his life miserable offstage with various stuff.

I think its more like a 65-35 Mario's favor. playing as a campy Mario with receding fireballs and a good grab game will null and void his approaches. dont play too agressively because if you miss an aerial, he'll punish hard which'll lead to probably a stock down. save your D-smash to send him just a little above the stage, making him use his punishable up B to come back.

FLUDD is a handy tool against his recovery game. if he falls short of the edge and up-Bs, just FLUDD him away and profit off the stock. want to be even more clever Cape his Side B or jump out there and take the hit to send him into SD followed by a FLUDD to ensure he doesnt grab that edge.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well I guess you heard these guys. Ike discussion has started.

 

[BoTastic!]

think its more like a 65-35 Mario's favor

65:35? pssh. You must not face Good Ikes. When your a certain person who faces Ikes like Kirk and Renegade, you have a different opinion.

This is more like 55:45/60:40 Mario's favor. Mario really has nothing against Ike's jabs. Ike's jabs destroy Mario's ground game. You can't even fight Ike on the ground. You have to really space in this match up with bair and get Ike offstage and in the air as much as possible.

It's smart to always have Fludd charged up. Always. You never know when you'll catch him offstage. Also, just like A2z said, you have to stay away from Ike and not be aggressive. Aggressive Mario gets wrecked by jabs. If you hate being defensive, then you better learn if you want to beat a good Ike.

 

[waterfall6464]

Ike is probably is my most played matchup thanks to online scrubs, so I`ll give it a go.

- As Bo said, Ikes jab is really too good at shutting down your ground game.
- Do as much damage as you can with fireballs whenever you have the opportunity.
- Fludd is more useful here than most matchups imo. It screws his recovery unless aimed perfectly and it makes approaching Mario a little bit harder for him. Fihl might be a good tool on him too, maybe.
- Punish with oos u-smash for good damage or up tilt/d-throw for combos.
- His fair and up-smash have insane range. Watch out for them.
So in general:
Avoid his jab, camp him, go for gimps, shield and punish, avoid fair and dair off-stage.
Play on defense until you see an opening.
55:45 on most stages or 60:40 on FD

 

[Mr. Doom]

One option for escaping out of Ike's jab is to up+b. That's if he does jab cancels.

Be careful when trying to up+b out of jab. An ike-player well aware of this will power shield the up+b and strike you with an up-air.

Mario's up-tilt racks up damage when Ike's at low percentages. I haven't found a way to get out of u-tilt at low percentages.

As far as I know, throwing fireballs against Ike don't usually work. He can just power shield them, and if Mario comes close enough with a fireball, Ike can power-shield and jab Mario before he can pull out his fastest move.

Cape works wonders against Ike's forward+b attack. Definitely try to land that when he's in free-fall animation. You can also cape Ike's up+b while he is going up to grab his sword. It'll launch him up a bit higher, but it'll reverse his momentum in the process.

I hope this helps.

 

[san.]

IMO it's pretty much even (i would even say 55:45 Ike but I'm in the minority there ), but I agree with some of the points of what 55:45 Mario people say. 45:55 either way.

Watch out for ike's jabs. Ike knows you're mario, so he knows you can both up B (sounds risky to me!) or nair Ike if you DI correctly, so Ike would usually attempt to throw or shield throw you after a while. Watch out for his backthrow to dash attack, because it can get you offstage very quickly.

Ike kills way earlier than you. Don't get caught in the air and in danger. You don't really have too many moves you can outright get away from ike with because of his nair and even some of his other aerials, so you may be air dodging more than you want, something Ike could capitalize on. Platforms are not your friend vs Ike. Ike fights for his platforms.

One could say that You could space fireballs and get close, but you can't do both at once. if You get too close while shooting out a fireball, Ike could still hit you with fair (yet get hit with the fireball himself) which ultimately hurts you more.

That's why fireballs offstage are not always reliable when recovering from offstage. One hit of fair and you're either worse off or in the exact same position. That is why you can't do much except dodge offstage in order to try to completely avoid him, something that can be predicted, so don't get caught in that position.

Ike's jabs are really annoying for mario. It can cancel out fireballs(not to mention powershield), yet you still have very little time to get inside and lay the damage on. I'm unsure if you guys still have things you can do to people even on powershield, though. You must force Ike to approach in order for you to have an advantage.

Mario has the tools to gimp Ike, but Ike has a way to avoid only one at a time. You can't gimp Ike's aether with cape if it's reversed or he isn't holding forward when you cape him, but Ike also has to worry about FLUDD, which is a lot trickier for Ike to avoid. Bo is right about keeping FLUDD full at all times.

Against an Ike who spaces well, it is actually pretty difficult for Ike to get juggled in the air. Ike's nair is a big pain to get around because the hitbox goes all around him, and well spaced, can't be punished. Getting a kill move as early as possible is crucial because it'll be hard to hit a good Ike that just doesn't fall trap to one of your fsmashes.



CP Ike FD, or stages with little platforms. Platforms <3 Ike and vice versa. That is Ike's worst stage against you. If they ban FD, go to FD2 (smashville). Tricky stages or stages with lots of obstacles and other things you don't want to bring Ike to.

Ike will try to CP a variety of levels against you. Brinstar, delfino, PS1, any gay stage, haha. Watch out for that.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Hmm, can Mario chaingrab Ike?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Adding onto what San said:

If Pirate Ship is legal: Ban it. Other wise you have lost. Plain and simple. You're done. Might as well just throw yourself into the ship's hull three times to save time. You're main advantage (gimping) is nullified for most of this stage, and your spike is amazingly slow. If Pirate Ship is already banned, you might want to ban Delfino to avoid the water situation. Mario really can't do much to Ike during those phases.

Ike's Jab 1 -> Jab 1 and Jab 1 -> Grab are true combos. Since you have your Up B's invincibility frames, I would suspect Ike will Jab -> Grab a lot for maximum, safe damage. At least, that's what I would do. Jab, Grab, Pummel, Up/Down throw onto a platform, you're in for some hurt.

Mario's Utilt is a pain. You should probably watch which way Ike attempts to DI/SDI (w/e one) out of the combo at low %s in order to get a final blow in like an uair or bair.

Fireballs over all don't do much against Ike. Jab deals with them easily, meaning you can't just camp us with them. We can keep hitting them away, and if you try to approach during that time, we can just finish the full combo and attempt to hit you with the third hit. Or cancel it into a grab/utilt.

Mario is going to have a problem getting past Ike's Fair/Nair. Nair basically ACs so you can't punish it, and I don't believe a stutter stepped Fsmash isn't fast enough to hit Ike before he can shield.

Don't stall too much off stage. Ike completely outranges your air game, so it's a fairly big risk to do so. I would just focus on getting back in one piece.

55/45 Ike's Advantage from what I've seen the few times I've played this match-up. I lost mainly when I messed up, not because of something Mario forced.

 

[Javon89]

I'm Looking at 60:40 Mario, because of Ike's speed and Mario gimping ability, once you're offstage you're screwed because of FLUDD, Cape, Bair, Nair(to stage-spike) otherwise 55:45 on Pirate Ship.

Mario can punish Ike easily if he uses his laggy moves like F-smash, B-neutral, U-smash. Mario aerials are faster and chain together, but Ike has more range and large hitboxes. U-tilt can rack up damage fast and can put Ike in bad situations. Although Ike's jab can annoy us Marios' and Fireball camping isn't the best idea. Ike's strong aerials and Smash attacks can cost stocks. But that's my opinion and please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I always thought this matchup was 50/50 or Mario's favor back in the day (55/45 or 52.5/47.5) due to camping, juggling, edgeguarding, and gaying Ike. CPs like Brinstar and PS1 is very gud for Mario, Mario can juggle Ike easily on platforms. Mario will spam aerials 24/7 if Ike is on the platforms. Mario's plan is like throwing off Ike just like Link or throw him in the air to juggle him. Mario would do better than Ike in neutrals. Ike players mostly do jab cancel and grabs. Mario is better than Ike in aerial game, Ike can only outrange Mario in aerial game and ground game but Mario can pull off combos in air and ground game which Mario can give more damage than Ike. Ike got too laggy moves which it so easy to predictable, we can shield grab it or break it w/ a fireball. Once we throw Ike off the stage, FLUDD, Cape, edgeguard ***** his recovery. Mario got the gay CPs on Ike. Mario and Ike is not gud on Delfino due to recovery, but Mario will do better b/c of the platforms can help him. Ike best stages is FD and SV. Mario got more best stages than Ike.

Mario vs Ike in my opinion as of now. 55:45 or 52.5/47.5

Mario's Best Stages on Ike:

Battlefield
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Yoshi's Isiand
Final Destination (outcamp him)
Smashville (same thing as FD)
Pokemon Stadium 1 (50/50, I guess?)

Ike's Best Stages for Mario:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Halberd
Pokemon Studium (50/50, I guess?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Against an Ike who spaces well, it is actually pretty difficult for Ike to get juggled in the air. Ike's nair is a big pain to get around because the hitbox goes all around him, and well spaced, can't be punished. Getting a kill move as early as possible is crucial because it'll be hard to hit a good Ike that just doesn't fall trap to one of your fsmashes.

N-air gets punished by Up-smash out of shield. As long as virtually anyone just walks under Ike, he pretty much doesn't have anything he can do to avoid getting juggled.

You can also Up-B his Jabs. The usual D-air -> N-air/U-air tricks are still extremely good in this matchup if you need to approach considering that it really can't be punished on shield drop or jump out of shield.

 

[Kimchi]

N-air gets punished by Up-smash out of shield. As long as virtually anyone just walks under Ike, he pretty much doesn't have anything he can do to avoid getting juggled.

You can also Up-B his Jabs.

I think you're not giving Ike enough credit here. Ike's Nair is amazing because of the hitbox. Your statement would be correct if Ike's sword hitbox wasn't underneath his feet when you Usmash. But again, that's what everybody says and Nair still hits them. Also, it's not like Ikes will be spamming their laggy attacks. San and Bo essentially wrapped the discussion up. FLUDD should always be charged for early gimps if Ike is sent offstage. Keep it mind that cape is not a guaranteed gimp against Ike as he can simply stop holding forward to get back onto the ledge. Adding onto what san said, Ike's jabs are really a pain in the *** for Mario. There's no way Mario will even come close to beating Ike's ground game. However, keep in mind that good Ikes will not jab cancel like maniacs against Mario as they know which characters can break out. Mario can intercept Ike's next jab cancel with Uair/Nair depending on DI and his positioning.

Fireballs... aren't that good here. I would recommend not approaching with fireballs as Ike can powershield/interrupt them with jab. Powershield approaching with Ike then punishing Mario as he's approaching fireballs with jab is ridiculously easy so try not to abuse it. Retreating fireballs would be fine, but again I don't see much use of a retreating fireball. In terms of approaches, I'd probably say Bair is your best bet, but I can't say much on his approaches since I don't play Mario. You're probably going to have to force Ike to approach here.

San is correct about a spacing Ike being difficult for Mario to juggle. Retreating Fair/Nair are amazing in terms of backing off when Mario is too close in a position where Ike's ground game won't be effective. However, if you do get close and get a grab in, you're in good luck. Most of Mario's throws will put Ike into a bad position, especially Dthrow. Keep in mind though once you find a juggling attempt that you don't become greedy. Once Ike gets back onto the ground, try to retreat or predict what Ike's going to do. Ike can retaliate pretty smoothly once he gets back onto the ground after a failed juggle attempt with Utilt or jabs. I played this matchup a lot with Kirin and I have to say, it's 50/50. Mario has the tools to gimp Ike, but the problem is getting him offstage. The key here is to focus on your aerial juggling capabilities and your spacing with aerials in general.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think you're not giving Ike enough credit here. Ike's Nair is amazing because of the hitbox. Your statement would be correct if Ike's sword hitbox wasn't underneath his feet when you Usmash.

I don't get what you're saying. As long as Mario gets under Ike and does Up-smash out of shield when he hits your shield, it will punish him. D-air when he air dodges or do dashing shieldgrabs.

Also, it's not like Ikes will be spamming their laggy attacks.

Considering that all his aerials are punishable and his air mobility sucks, it goes to show how limited his options are.

There's no way Mario will even come close to beating Ike's ground game.

Mario's Jab is faster and has Jab cancel combos too (Jab Jab D-smash is an unblockable combo), and Up-B out of shield punishes Ike's Jab. I'm not arguing that Mario has a better ground game. The point is he has tools to beat it.

Fireballs... aren't that good here. I would recommend not approaching with fireballs as Ike can powershield/interrupt them with jab. Powershield approaching with Ike then punishing Mario as he's approaching fireballs with jab is ridiculously easy so try not to abuse it. Retreating fireballs would be fine, but again I don't see much use of a retreating fireball. In terms of approaches, I'd probably say Bair is your best bet, but I can't say much on his approaches since I don't play Mario. You're probably going to have to force Ike to approach here.

Fireballs are great. Just wait for the attack, and spam them if Ike tries to space and play defensively. Against Ike if he does nothing, if he shields, Mario has the upper hand here since his D-air is safe on block. If he Jabs, RAR B-air counters that. His aerials except for B-air can also be powershielded on reaction.

San is correct about a spacing Ike being difficult for Mario to juggle. Retreating Fair/Nair are amazing in terms of backing off when Mario is too close in a position where Ike's ground game won't be effective.

If I know you're retreating aerials, that's time for me to camp.

 

[Kimchi]

I don't get what you're saying. As long as Mario gets under Ike and does Up-smash out of shield when he hits your shield, it will punish him. D-air when he air dodges or do dashing shieldgrabs.

Considering that all his aerials are punishable and his air mobility sucks, it goes to show how limited his options are.

Mario's Jab is faster and has Jab cancel combos too, and Up-B out of shield punishes Ike's Jab. I'm not arguing that Mario has a better ground game. The point is he has tools to beat it.

Fireballs are great. Just wait for the attack, and spam them if Ike tries to space and play defensively. Against Ike if he does nothing, if he shields, Mario has the upper hand here since his D-air is safe on block. If he Jabs, RAR B-air counters that. His aerials except for B-air can also be powershielded on reaction.

If I know you're retreating aerials, that's time for me to camp.

I don't get what you're saying. As long as Mario gets under Ike and does Up-smash out of shield when he hits your shield, it will punish him. D-air when he air dodges or do dashing shieldgrabs.

And I reiterate: Ike's Nair hitbox will only get interrupted by Usmash if the hitbox of the sword is not at Ike's feet when it's circling in a semi-circle.

Considering that all his aerials are punishable and his air mobility sucks, it goes to show how limited his options are.

I'd like to see Mario punish a perfectly spaced Fair/Nair.

Fireballs are great. Just wait for the attack, and spam them if Ike tries to space and play defensively. Against Ike if he does nothing, if he shields, Mario has the upper hand here since his D-air is safe on block. If he Jabs, RAR B-air counters that. His aerials except for B-air can also be powershielded on reaction.

To what extent will you be constantly seeing opportunities like that? I'm pointing out that Mario's fireballs are horrible for approaching/in general against Ike. I'm well aware D-air is a relatively safe approach for Mario, I apologize for forgetting to mention that.

Mario's Jab is faster and has Jab cancel combos too, and Up-B out of shield punishes Ike's Jab. I'm not arguing that Mario has a better ground game. The point is he has tools to beat it.

Like I said, against Mario, Ikes won't abuse jab cancels. I don't think any attack can intercept Ike's full jab combo iirc, which is just simply to press A-A-A.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And I reiterate: Ike's Nair hitbox will only get interrupted by Usmash if the hitbox of the sword is not at Ike's feet when it's circling in a semi-circle.

No, it only doesn't get punished if he spaces it at maximum horizontal range while retreating. His N-air basically has the same horizontal range as Mario's U-smash, so if he's actually in range to N-air, if he's not retreating, he's going to get punished.

I'd like to see Mario punish a perfectly spaced Fair/Nair. A Nair gives us a 7 frame advantage also so again, like san said, a spacing Ike is pretty difficult for Mario to juggle/punish.

7 frame advantage? You have to be kidding me. Ike's N-air has IASA frames upon landing from frame 13, which would be enough time for Mario to B-air or U-smash out of shield. Considering his N-air doesn't have the shieldstun of something like G&W's Up-smash, I'm pretty doubtful of your data. Also, it would be a lot more helpful if you used positive and negative signs as indication.

F-smash can outrange Ike's F-air, aside from the fact that Ike's F-air is a pretty slow attack overall, so it's not impossible to punish even when spaced.

To what extent will you be constantly seeing opportunities like that? I'm pointing out that Mario's fireballs are horrible for approaching/in general against Ike. I'm well aware D-air is a relatively safe approach for Mario, I apologize for forgetting to mention that.

Ike's stuff is only safe when he retreats. That is why there is good opportunity to camp him.

 

[Kimchi]

No, it only doesn't get punished if he spaces it at maximum horizontal range while retreating. His N-air basically has the same horizontal range as Mario's U-smash, so if he's actually in range to N-air, if he's not retreating, he's going to get punished.

7 frame advantage? You have to be kidding me. Ike's N-air has IASA frames upon landing from frame 13, which would be enough time for Mario to B-air or U-smash out of shield. Considering his N-air doesn't have the shieldstun of something like G&W's Up-smash, I'm pretty doubtful of your data. Also, it would be a lot more helpful if you used positive and negative signs as indication.

F-smash can outrange Ike's F-air, aside from the fact that Ike's F-air is a pretty slow attack overall, so it's not impossible to punish even when spaced.

Ike's stuff is only safe when he retreats. That is why there is good opportunity to camp him.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7924583&postcount=3678
I mentioned that a perfectly spaced Nair would not be able to be punished by Mario. Given your statement that U-Smash is essentially the same horizontal range as Ike's Nair, Mario would not be able to hit Ike. Not quite sure whether Mario's Bair has enough range to hit Ike's spaced Nair, but I don't see it happening.
Also, lol, I meant jab has the 7 frame advantage *face palm. I'm so out of it right now.

 

[Inferno3044]

I first thought it was 60:40 Mario, but now I'm thinking it's that or 55:45.

The biggest disadvantage for Ike is obvious: his attacks are stupidly slow. It's something so big, it can't be ignored. Anything that isn't jab is able to be seen for miles. On the other hand, Ike's jab is really good. Also, Mario's Fsmash is so useful in his MU. It outranges Ike's fair and practically everything he has. Also it's faster than most things he has. That plus the angle can really put Ike in a bad place.

I'm at a hotel now and about to go out for dinner so this is all I can put for now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Anything that isn't jab is able to be seen for miles.

7 frame Bair = seen for miles? lol

Nair still leaves Ike with at least a 3 frame advantage: it's a true combo into jab at low %s. Much how his Bthrow leaves him with enough of a frame advantage to combo into Dash Attack at the right %s, or QD. Jab isn't the only thing that leaves him with a frame advantage.

Mario's Fsmash doesn't outrange Fair form what I remember. Stutter step can move into the range safely, but it's not outranging it. The area of pixels it hits with doesn't suddenly change to a bigger number: it shifts on the x-axis # amount during the start-up of the attack. If it normally hits from pixels (random number here, work with me here I know I'm way off) 0 to 20, a stutter step doesn't suddenly hit from 0 to 25. It now hits from 5 to 25. That's different from outranging. Unless of course it actually outranges it (as in, hits a bigger area of pixels, not shifting pixels), but that would require me going to my Wii, turning it on, and actually testing.

And honestly: Mario's Fsmash is too slow to be "so useful" as put above. It's in the same ballpark as the moves Ike actually will use that isn't jab or bair, but it's not as disjointed which is another strike against it. Arm + fireball loses to sword as the arm has a hurt box. Same with Nair VS Mario's Usmash. It's not as disjointed, Mario's head is going to have to hit the sword to hit Ike. So either they both hit, or Mario loses that one.

 

[KirinBlaze]

50:50, Arguable for 55:45 Mario.

'nuff said.

You'd be surprised at just how disjointed Mario's Usmash is though. Especially on the first few frames on the back.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's Fsmash doesn't outrange Fair form what I remember. Stutter step can move into the range safely, but it's not outranging it. The area of pixels it hits with doesn't suddenly change to a bigger number: it shifts on the x-axis # amount during the start-up of the attack. If it normally hits from pixels (random number here, work with me here I know I'm way off) 0 to 20, a stutter step doesn't suddenly hit from 0 to 25. It now hits from 5 to 25. That's different from outranging. Unless of course it actually outranges it (as in, hits a bigger area of pixels, not shifting pixels), but that would require me going to my Wii, turning it on, and actually testing.

Pah, doesn't matter. All that matters is that I can simply stand out of Ike's range and since his F-air has like around 20ish frames of ending lag, I can then F-smash to punish if I have good spacing.

The way it works is on frame 0 you are standing at position 0. Then on frame 15 when the hitbox comes out, you're at position 25. That's what I call massive range.

You should keep in mind, Mario's F-smash has HUGE leanback, so the amount of area Mario actually hits is much larger than it appears, since his entire body is a hitbox. Normal F-smashes can be abused for the leanback, which still outranges basically the same stuff as long as you catch someone whiffing on the leanback.

And honestly: Mario's Fsmash is too slow to be "so useful" as put above. It's in the same ballpark as the moves Ike actually will use that isn't jab or bair, but it's not as disjointed which is another strike against it. Arm + fireball loses to sword as the arm has a hurt box. Same with Nair VS Mario's Usmash. It's not as disjointed, Mario's head is going to have to hit the sword to hit Ike. So either they both hit, or Mario loses that one.

U-smash is used out of shield due to its speed. Also, most attacks have around 20-25 frames of ending lag, which is why Mario's F-smash is so good. I can stand outside of the range of almost everything and punish. F-smash also wins in Jab wars due to the massive leanback and priority.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If a Mario was stupid enough to attempt to use a Fsmash mid-jab war, Ike would just cancel ->shieldgrab as punishment.

How many frames of startup does Mario's Fsmash have?

And you said Mario could use Usmash by running underneath Ike and Usmash as he came down. Nothing about shielding, or getting pushed back by Nair.

And IIRC, Ike's Fair has under 20 frames of lag due to IASA frames. Wasn't it like, a lot less? Somebody look it up for me, I have college stuff to do now. ;_;

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm not going to get into this whole cluster****, so I'm gonna say this.

50:50, Arguable for 55:45 Mario.

'nuff said..

 

[A2ZOMG]

If a Mario was stupid enough to attempt to use a Fsmash mid-jab war, Ike would just cancel ->shieldgrab as punishment.

How many frames of startup does Mario's Fsmash have?

F-smash is 15 frames, which is fast enough to punish virtually everything in the game provided it is well-timed after you factor it is one of the longest ranged F-smashes in the game, and that most attacks have 20-25 frames of ending lag (except for stuff like G&W's Smashes for most practical purposes). Granted, not every Mario main knows how to space F-smash. It takes a learning curve, but the point is under someone who knows Mario's options, that is something he can do. Used properly, it's one of the best F-smashes in this game when you consider the raw number of opportunities Mario has to land it.

Also, you're not shieldgrabbing Mario's F-smash, or his D-smash, and Ike doesn't have many amazingly good options for punishing those since they push you out of Jab range, and outside of that his OOS game pretty much sucks.

And you said Mario could use Usmash by running underneath Ike and Usmash as he came down. Nothing about shielding, or getting pushed back by Nair.

Run under him, shield the aerial, Up-smash. Punishes him pretty consistently when done correctly considering his N-air doesn't actually reach that far nor does it have a lot of power.

And IIRC, Ike's Fair has under 20 frames of lag due to IASA frames. Wasn't it like, a lot less? Somebody look it up for me, I have college stuff to do now. ;_;

According to Kirk, IASA is on frame 22. Nice try.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

F-smash is 15 frames, which is fast enough to punish virtually everything in the game provided it is well-timed after you factor it is one of the longest ranged F-smashes in the game, and that most attacks have 20-25 frames of ending lag (except for stuff like G&W's Smashes for most practical purposes). Granted, not every Mario main knows how to space F-smash. It takes a learning curve, but the point is under someone who knows Mario's options, that is something he can do. Used properly, it's one of the best F-smashes in this game when you consider the raw number of opportunities Mario has to land it.

It STILL doesn't change the fact you said to use it in a jab battle...when we could jab you several times during the wind up period, or easily shield it on reaction. That is just stupid. No sane player would ever attempt that.

There is also the fact you aren't accounting for human reaction time for punishing. If something has 20 frames of cooldown, you ain't punishing it in time with Fsmash. It'll get shielded by the time your brain registers that you can punish it, and by the time you get in the right position, even with stutter stepping.

Also, you're not shieldgrabbing Mario's F-smash, or his D-smash, and Ike doesn't have many amazingly good options for punishing those since they push you out of Jab range, and outside of that his OOS game pretty much sucks.

Beat out the Fsmash with a dash grab. Both of those would be punishable with a dashgrab in the cooldown if/when they are spotdodged, though Dsmash would be fairly close. I'll have to test the pushback of Fsmash/Dsmash but I'm fairly sure you can punish both of those with a dash grab on shield.

According to Kirk, IASA is on frame 22. Nice try.

Please note the lovely "IIRC" phrase, followed by me asking someone to check. I wasn't "trying" anything. I was honestly asking someone to check because it had been a while since I looked at the exact number. I remembered it being 15ish. No wonder you get laughed at so much, trying to find "attempts" where there isn't any.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It STILL doesn't change the fact you said to use it in a jab battle...when we could jab you several times during the wind up period, or easily shield it on reaction. That is just stupid. No sane player would ever attempt that.

You can't Jab Mario during windup if he does it right since he leans back a lot on the charge stance (which is instant by the way). And I'd like to see you consistently block it on reaction when I predict a Jab. Good players do fall for it.

There is also the fact you aren't accounting for human reaction time for punishing. If something has 20 frames of cooldown, you ain't punishing it in time with Fsmash. It'll get shielded by the time your brain registers that you can punish it, and by the time you get in the right position, even with stutter stepping.

I accounted for reaction time already. Consider that Ike's stuff has massive startup, I've already reacted to it a few frames before the attack has even come out. Once it finishes, I've already planned way ahead the exact moment I can F-smash. Spacing discrepancies can make things harder, but if I'm too close, I can either camp or B-air out of shield, and then there is that range where I can just charge F-smash to dodge an attack and punish.

Beat out the Fsmash with a dash grab. Both of those would be punishable with a dashgrab in the cooldown if/when they are spotdodged, though Dsmash would be fairly close. I'll have to test the pushback of Fsmash/Dsmash but I'm fairly sure you can punish both of those with a dash grab on shield.

Ike's Dashgrab doesn't have very good range, and considering the fast startup of D-smash in particular, THAT is a move you will have trouble reacting to. And either way, Ike's grab reward is mediocre, so if that's all he can use to punish those moves, I don't particularly care much.

Please note the lovely "IIRC" phrase, followed by me asking someone to check. I wasn't "trying" anything. I was honestly asking someone to check because it had been a while since I looked at the exact number. I remembered it being 15ish. No wonder you get laughed at so much, trying to find "attempts" where there isn't any.

I like how you just reversed that situation on yourself. The key point I'm making is that Ike's F-air IS in fact punishable if the Mario knows what he's doing since there IS existent lag time that Mario's F-smash is fast enough to punish. Which was in fact something you are more or less trying to refute.

 

[hippiedude92]

50:50

55:45 stage dependent

take notes homiessssz

l also like how majority of all of us, just seem to intepret the internet and matchup discussions as if one board sounds like their bashing the other one, and the other is not giving the other character, enough credit lol.

 

[Inferno3044]

7 frame Bair = seen for miles? lol

Nair still leaves Ike with at least a 3 frame advantage: it's a true combo into jab at low %s. Much how his Bthrow leaves him with enough of a frame advantage to combo into Dash Attack at the right %s, or QD. Jab isn't the only thing that leaves him with a frame advantage.

Mario's Fsmash doesn't outrange Fair form what I remember. Stutter step can move into the range safely, but it's not outranging it. The area of pixels it hits with doesn't suddenly change to a bigger number: it shifts on the x-axis # amount during the start-up of the attack. If it normally hits from pixels (random number here, work with me here I know I'm way off) 0 to 20, a stutter step doesn't suddenly hit from 0 to 25. It now hits from 5 to 25. That's different from outranging. Unless of course it actually outranges it (as in, hits a bigger area of pixels, not shifting pixels), but that would require me going to my Wii, turning it on, and actually testing.

And honestly: Mario's Fsmash is too slow to be "so useful" as put above. It's in the same ballpark as the moves Ike actually will use that isn't jab or bair, but it's not as disjointed which is another strike against it. Arm + fireball loses to sword as the arm has a hurt box. Same with Nair VS Mario's Usmash. It's not as disjointed, Mario's head is going to have to hit the sword to hit Ike. So either they both hit, or Mario loses that one.

OK. Maybe Ike has TWO moves that can't be seen for miles. I'm sorry. But everything else is so easy to see coming. Plus I believe the average human reaction is 6 frames (.1 seconds) and only one of Ike's moves comes out before that. Fsmash does outrange Ike's fair actually. I know because I did that when I played Inui's Ike. If that isn't true, then Ike's fair is so slow that I saw it coming and used Fsmash to stop him before he hit me. It means that There was so much time that I had 15 frames to react and punish.

This MU should be played campy. Fireballs do very well again. It hinders his approaches which he will have to do because we can easily outcamp him, it's a good projectile, can be used to edgeguard, and his attacks are too slow to whiff them away like Marth can with his fair. We beat him in the air by far. It is pretty easy to gimp him. Actually, Ike is one of the easiest characters for Mario to gimp. We can rack damage better and have much quicker moves. On the other hand, I now think it is 55:45 instead of 60:40. If Mario slips, there's a problem just waiting to show itself.

l also like how majority of all of us, just seem to intepret the internet and matchup discussions as if one board sounds like their bashing the other one, and the other is not giving the other character, enough credit lol.

I don't think Ike really has much going for him that isn't obvious. Unlike some characters I know (Luigi and Ness) I know some things about Ike, but not much that isn't obvious or already said. Also, I just think Mario has a bit of an advantage. Fireballs + easy gimping just give it to him imo.

 

[Matador]

I stick by 55:45 Mario...been saying it from day one.

Even matchup by all means until Ike needs to recover...Fludd >>>> Aether in nearly every circumstance.

 

[BSP]

I think Inferno summarized it pretty well.

 

[Matador]

OK. Maybe Ike has TWO moves that can't be seen for miles. I'm sorry. But everything else is so easy to see coming. Plus I believe the average human reaction is 6 frames (.1 seconds) and only one of Ike's moves comes out before that. Fsmash does outrange Ike's fair actually.

I'm personally more afraid of a character like Ike who has powerful slower moves intermixed with quick moves than a character with a moveset (speed-wise) like MK. They're built in spot dodge/airdodge punishers...something your brain isn't programmed to expect. It's why D3's DA is so scary and why Bowser's Uair keeps me from landing anywhere near him when i find myself airborne.

To dodge them, you have to expect them and wait a little longer to dodge or attack earlier than normal...and Ike beats the living hell out of Mario in priority.

This MU should be played campy. Fireballs do very well again. It hinders his approaches which he will have to do because we can easily outcamp him, it's a good projectile, can be used to edgeguard, and his attacks are too slow to whiff them away like Marth can with his fair. We beat him in the air by far. It is pretty easy to gimp him. Actually, Ike is one of the easiest characters for Mario to gimp. We can rack damage better and have much quicker moves. On the other hand, I now think it is 55:45 instead of 60:40. If Mario slips, there's a problem just waiting to show itself.

Campy? What? If the only thing you're doing with fireballs in ANY matchup isn't simply approaching/spacing, you're not using them safely. You DO realize that powershielding fireballs makes YOU vulnerable right? You don't want to be caught with your pants down vs Ike. You use them to get in pass that jab and spacing, combo him to hell, then repeat whenever he gets around to knocking you back out.

And sure, gimping when the circumstances are right. Camping with them is dangerous...vs anybody.

I don't think Ike really has much going for him that isn't obvious. Unlike some characters I know (Luigi and Ness) I know some things about Ike, but not much that isn't obvious or already said. Also, I just think Mario has a bit of an advantage. Fireballs + easy gimping just give it to him imo.

G&W is the most simplistic character in the game. A character doesn't have to surprise you to **** you up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You don't need to dodge against Ike. shielding works wonders against him since most of his moves are unsafe on block.

If you're not in range of Ike's Jab or B-air (which both have about the same range), then everything Ike does to attack you from this position is punishable on reaction at least provided you know when to powershield (normal shielding works too on virtually everything that isn't a retreating F-air) or fireball him out of lag. And also, Up-B out of shield can be really useful for punishing his Jab.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Beware of Ike's tilts though.

But im going to agree with 55:45 Mario.

 

[Kimchi]

And also, Up-B out of shield can be really useful for punishing his Jab.

Like I said, against Mario, Ikes won't abuse jab cancels. I don't think any attack can intercept Ike's full jab combo iirc, which is just simply to press A-A-A. Not even Marth can Dolphin Slash out of a full jab combo. Constantly Up-Bing OOS whenever Ike jabs is also screaming for punishment if you get predicted.

l also like how majority of all of us, just seem to intepret the internet and matchup discussions as if one board sounds like their bashing the other one, and the other is not giving the other character, enough credit lol.

This.

 

[hippiedude92]

kirin beat inuii's ike in mid tier singles 2-0

can we get bragging rights ?

oh and i hate ikes jab and fair that's really it lawl