BoTastic!
Smash Master
Meeeeeehhhh..
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The Complete Mario Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Inferno3044
- Start date
Anther
Smash Champion
Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.
Mario's broken D:
Mario's broken D:
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
Looks like Anther knows what's up.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Mario is so awesome! Even Anther knows. Even MU right here.
Javon89
Smash Ace
Have you guys done the match-up; Mario vs Diddy?
A2ZOMG
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I think we've done every matchup in the past.
Anyhow Mario goes pretty even-ish with Diddy. He has the tools to get control of Diddy's Banana game like Cape, quick aerials, and even a glidetoss on backwards roll.
Diddy has more combos in general and moves faster, but Mario with his gimping and KO power can easily keep up if he plays smart.
Anyhow Mario goes pretty even-ish with Diddy. He has the tools to get control of Diddy's Banana game like Cape, quick aerials, and even a glidetoss on backwards roll.
Diddy has more combos in general and moves faster, but Mario with his gimping and KO power can easily keep up if he plays smart.
KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
Random but, I'm pretty sure I can do the Mario/Link MU in a big wall of text. 8D
I do main both characters and have played many Link's, including Legan.
I do main both characters and have played many Link's, including Legan.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
That would be great. I'm just gonna end Pikachu at even. Make your big wall of text and put a ratio on it. I doubt there will be a big argument about it. It would get him out of the way in like a day.
$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$
Smash Lord
so Mario vs Pika is 50/50 or 55/45 Pikachu's favor? It's 50/50 to me due to the camping, caping, and SDI.
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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Kirin can take down the discussion in five minutes. I'll just be high right hand and tell everyone to GTFO.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Hero has spoken. This would really take one post to do.
EDIT: Yeah. Link's next. Kirin's time to shine.
$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$
Smash Lord
Ok, Link got the projectiles. Mario and Link seems to be possibly even in camping w/ projectile spam. Mario can combo Link very well. They seem 50/50 but i have a funny feeling that it might be in Mario's favor, like 52.5/47.5.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
You are missing so much for Mario. Mario do better against Link's projectiles than Link can to Mario's. Mario can FLUDD, cape, PS, or dodge and fireball spam. Link can just PS or use his shield which he can only do by standing still. What I'm saying is that we can move around his better than he can move around ours. On Link's behalf of projectiles, he has a variety. He has bombs, arrows, and a boomerang. A good Link will mix these up very well making it harder for us to get around them.
His kill power and weight are bad for a power character, which I believe he was meant to be. He is ridiculously easy to gimp. Like stupidly easy. Get him a good distance off horizontally and edgehog so he can't tether. He might carry a bomb to help him get back up. Our attack speed is faster and we can combo him. Honestly I don't know any fast attack Link has (then again, I'm not familiar with his move set)
Kirin practically has the final say, but I think it's around 60:40 Mario.
He actually has a very good amount of even MUs. Probably around 75% of the case has somewhere between 55:45 their advantage and 55:45 Mario's advantage.
JUDGE
Smash Lord
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ohh yeah link^^
i have much experience in this MU
link can space mario very well
his gale boomerang, bombs, his zair and his jab can be pretty annoying
his nair comes out very quick(i think frame 3) and it covers all of his body(not sure^^)
makes it to a very good combo breaker
link can survive very long with perfect DI
i know a link who can reeeaaally good edgeguard with dair
no matter how long i capestall in the air(if i do) he can read it and punish me
however this depends on the player
but yeah i have to say this MU is in marios favor
we can combo him very well
his zair doesn't hit mario very often cuz he is too short^^
i speak out of experience^^
we can cape his boomerang,his bomb(use cape backwards) and his arrows(however most of the link just use the quick draw when they shot an arrow wich is very predictable)
if link gets offstage he's dead
we can edgeguard and gimp him soooo easily
even edgehogging is pretty safe cuz even if you get hit it won't stagespike you bad most of the time
his recovery sux.
you can cape him very easy or bair stagespike
i would say this MU is a 60:40 for mario^^
final word to kirin^^
i have much experience in this MU
link can space mario very well
his gale boomerang, bombs, his zair and his jab can be pretty annoying
his nair comes out very quick(i think frame 3) and it covers all of his body(not sure^^)
makes it to a very good combo breaker
link can survive very long with perfect DI
i know a link who can reeeaaally good edgeguard with dair
no matter how long i capestall in the air(if i do) he can read it and punish me
however this depends on the player
but yeah i have to say this MU is in marios favor
we can combo him very well
his zair doesn't hit mario very often cuz he is too short^^
i speak out of experience^^
we can cape his boomerang,his bomb(use cape backwards) and his arrows(however most of the link just use the quick draw when they shot an arrow wich is very predictable)
if link gets offstage he's dead
we can edgeguard and gimp him soooo easily
even edgehogging is pretty safe cuz even if you get hit it won't stagespike you bad most of the time
his recovery sux.
you can cape him very easy or bair stagespike
i would say this MU is a 60:40 for mario^^
final word to kirin^^
A2ZOMG
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Mario's options aren't all that limited...his main problem is just KO power, meaning he's a character that needs to work harder than most.
At least, he goes neutral with Diddy Kong, Falco, Pikachu, ROB, Wolf, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Sheik, and Pit.
He wins against everyone who is currently low tier (besides himself). Not to mention Sonic and Fox.
All Balanced Brawl does to Mario is increase his KO power on a few moves, and those changes make Mario a clear top tier threat. KO power is really the only thing that was ever holding Mario back in this game (alright, low range makes me mad sometimes too). Mario can fundamentally space, pressure, and rack damage quite well, not to mention his unique edgeguard game.
At any rate, the object to beat Link is simple. Cape projectiles. Combo him. Get him offstage. N-air him while he's offstage and edgehog. And remember...SHD-air can really **** his out of shield game. SH D-air -> U-air/N-air puts you in a position where you can Jab before he can do anything out of shield.
waterfall6464
Smash Cadet
About that, which aerial after sh-dair is better for shield pressure? This trick could be handy vs ddd I think.
Shahryar2010
Smash Cadet
Mario's Cape and FLUDD, along with grabbing the ledge, screws Link's recovery so 60:40 in my opinion.
KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
Mario/Link is 60:40 Mario.
Unlike Toon Link, Link's camping game can be used extremely well out of both short hops and full hops, it's just a bit slower. The same rule apply for Link. Use your FLUDD to beat out all of his projectles and screw up his Zair spacing. Again if you're going to try and camp him you want to do it from a Full Hop. Using Full Hop Fireballs makes it so you escape the range of Link's Zair, which BEATS Fireballs and then hits you, SHFireball is a very bad choice here. From a Full Hop you can also come down and bait the Utilt or Usmash Link will use to stop you with a Cape Stall then punish him.
You can be aggressive against Link. Link's projectile spam is very easy to Power Shield and just very easy to get through altogether and he has a very difficult time when an opponent pressures him up close. The fastest things he can use to push you our are his Jab Combos, Dsmash, and Utilt. Mario can ruin Link close up with his faster attacks and superior combo game. Link does posses a combo breaker in his Nair. You should always expect the Link to either Nair or Air Dodge out of your throws so punish and follow up.
Link has a lot of range onstage. With the combination of Pivot Boosting his range becomes even greater. Fsmash will be used very often to keep you out of Link's comfort zone if you get to close. If you're aware of this then you can get around it. Expect Link to rack up damage with Projectiles from Long Range, Zair and Projectiles from Mid Range, Usmash, Utilt, Jabs, Fsmash from Close Range. Dsmash, Dair, and even Ftilt can be used to KO you.
Link's spot dodge and roll are also very good. Link can attack a shield, spot dodge right after it and attack very quickly out of this spot dodge. You need to be aware of this so you can punish this spot dodge with a grab, smash, or jab combo. Link's roll and tech roll are also quick and have more distance then other rolls, keep this in mind when trying to tech chase him.
Offstage is rather simple. You really don't even have to FLUDD him, but it should be noted that if your FLUDD connects with his Head during his UpB Link will shoot upward past the ledge and this sets up for a free Cape to gimp him. Simply shooting a fireball or two off the ledge works just as well. The Fireball hit's Link and he loses all forward momentum he had falling back toward the stage, this is good since Link's UpB is DI dependent. He needs the momentum to direct his UpB left or right, without it he'll simply shoot straight up with next to no left or right movement. Simply Capeing him as he is falling back to the stage guarantees a KO as well.
Killing onstage can be a bit of a problem. One thing I will say is that when you are at higher %'s and you have Link high up in the air. DO NOT GO AFTER HIM. You're just asking to be Dair'd and KO'd by it. Link's Dair is VERY lingering and loses none of it's Power during it. The Hitbox is also on the sides of his body as well as his hat. To KO Link onstage your best bet is Fsmash. Use Usmash as a damage racker, Link has the best Vertical Survivability in the game next to King DDD so you will not be KOing him vertically anyway. Spam Usmash for damage. Use Dsmash or Jabs to punish his spot dodge patterns, the fact that it's so good means just about every Link player will have one. Be sure to pick up on this. You can set up the Fsmash by baiting a few things, Dair when Link is coming down, Dsmash or Spot Dodge by faking an approach.
Link's Utilt and Reverse Utilt does a very good job at keeping Mario's aerial approaches limited. You really want to get inside him through Fireballs then hit him with the aerial or a grab, if you continuously try to approach with aerials alone Link isn't going to let you in. Back Air is still a good option here because of the range and how well it baits things.
Normally Link can gimp well offstage with his projectiles, most noted his Arrows. However Mario doesn't have to worry about this thanks to his Cape and FLUDD which outright reflect and beat Link's projectiles. Cape the GaleRang whenever possible, when Caped GaleRang stops Link's Arrows and Bomb's he will try and follow up with. Also be aware of Link's GBAL (Gale Boomerang Arrow Lock). At Mid %'s The GaleRang can hit you and force you to the ground, if you don't tech this Link can use and arrow right after to Lock you into a forced get up. He can follow up with a DAC, Dair, Grab, or Smash or even Continue the GBAL depending on his distance from you. This can also be used to set up a Jab Lock at close range, be careful.
Stater Stage: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise.
These are very good starter stages against Link. Battlefield and Lylat both have plenty of platforms to hamper Link's projectiles game, and Lylat's tilting can prove fatal for Link offstage.
You can consider YI as a starter, but I wouldn't go there. It's very camp friendly.
Ban: Final Destination, Smashville, Norfair.
Regardless of how well we do on them, we do not want to give Link room to camp us. Link really likes these large flat stages and he can camp extremely well on them.
Norfair makes Link's camping extremely difficult to deal with on Norfair. The numerous platforms and even the rising lava can really help his recovery as well. The Low Ceilings make Link's Dair KO extremely early as well.
Counter Pick: Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise, Halberd.
Castle Siege should be your primary CP stage against Link. CS wrecks characters the rely on camping to accomplish anything.
The first part of the stage is very small and gives Link very little room to camp. Staying on top of him is very easy here.
The second part of the stage makes is VERY hard to camp. The various statues and platforms will give Link hell when trying to camp and Mario can abuse his excellent platform pressure if Link finds himself on one. Watch out for the walk-offs though, Link's Bair can KO off the sides. Getting inside and keeping the pressure is very easy here. Be aggressive at this part in the battle.
The third and final stage change is a bit of a mixture between Final Destination and Lylat Cruise. It's flat and tilts. The tilting stage can severely hurt Link offstage when trying to recover, but he can also camp well here. This part of the stage is where you want to camp him back and wait for the stage change back to part one.
Pokemon Stadium one has very small blastzones which will make it much easier to KO Link both vertically and horizontally. The various stage changes give Link's camping game a bit of trouble as well.
Rainbow Cruise is another great stage, Mario's aerial game shines here and the constant moving and stage obstacles prove difficult for Link to deal with. His recovery is also easily gimped on this stage.
Halberd can go either way. Both Link and Mario have their advantages on this stage. CP this stage if you feel comfortable with it.
If I missed anything I'll get back to this post later. Just woke up. xD
Unlike Toon Link, Link's camping game can be used extremely well out of both short hops and full hops, it's just a bit slower. The same rule apply for Link. Use your FLUDD to beat out all of his projectles and screw up his Zair spacing. Again if you're going to try and camp him you want to do it from a Full Hop. Using Full Hop Fireballs makes it so you escape the range of Link's Zair, which BEATS Fireballs and then hits you, SHFireball is a very bad choice here. From a Full Hop you can also come down and bait the Utilt or Usmash Link will use to stop you with a Cape Stall then punish him.
You can be aggressive against Link. Link's projectile spam is very easy to Power Shield and just very easy to get through altogether and he has a very difficult time when an opponent pressures him up close. The fastest things he can use to push you our are his Jab Combos, Dsmash, and Utilt. Mario can ruin Link close up with his faster attacks and superior combo game. Link does posses a combo breaker in his Nair. You should always expect the Link to either Nair or Air Dodge out of your throws so punish and follow up.
Link has a lot of range onstage. With the combination of Pivot Boosting his range becomes even greater. Fsmash will be used very often to keep you out of Link's comfort zone if you get to close. If you're aware of this then you can get around it. Expect Link to rack up damage with Projectiles from Long Range, Zair and Projectiles from Mid Range, Usmash, Utilt, Jabs, Fsmash from Close Range. Dsmash, Dair, and even Ftilt can be used to KO you.
Link's spot dodge and roll are also very good. Link can attack a shield, spot dodge right after it and attack very quickly out of this spot dodge. You need to be aware of this so you can punish this spot dodge with a grab, smash, or jab combo. Link's roll and tech roll are also quick and have more distance then other rolls, keep this in mind when trying to tech chase him.
Offstage is rather simple. You really don't even have to FLUDD him, but it should be noted that if your FLUDD connects with his Head during his UpB Link will shoot upward past the ledge and this sets up for a free Cape to gimp him. Simply shooting a fireball or two off the ledge works just as well. The Fireball hit's Link and he loses all forward momentum he had falling back toward the stage, this is good since Link's UpB is DI dependent. He needs the momentum to direct his UpB left or right, without it he'll simply shoot straight up with next to no left or right movement. Simply Capeing him as he is falling back to the stage guarantees a KO as well.
Killing onstage can be a bit of a problem. One thing I will say is that when you are at higher %'s and you have Link high up in the air. DO NOT GO AFTER HIM. You're just asking to be Dair'd and KO'd by it. Link's Dair is VERY lingering and loses none of it's Power during it. The Hitbox is also on the sides of his body as well as his hat. To KO Link onstage your best bet is Fsmash. Use Usmash as a damage racker, Link has the best Vertical Survivability in the game next to King DDD so you will not be KOing him vertically anyway. Spam Usmash for damage. Use Dsmash or Jabs to punish his spot dodge patterns, the fact that it's so good means just about every Link player will have one. Be sure to pick up on this. You can set up the Fsmash by baiting a few things, Dair when Link is coming down, Dsmash or Spot Dodge by faking an approach.
Link's Utilt and Reverse Utilt does a very good job at keeping Mario's aerial approaches limited. You really want to get inside him through Fireballs then hit him with the aerial or a grab, if you continuously try to approach with aerials alone Link isn't going to let you in. Back Air is still a good option here because of the range and how well it baits things.
Normally Link can gimp well offstage with his projectiles, most noted his Arrows. However Mario doesn't have to worry about this thanks to his Cape and FLUDD which outright reflect and beat Link's projectiles. Cape the GaleRang whenever possible, when Caped GaleRang stops Link's Arrows and Bomb's he will try and follow up with. Also be aware of Link's GBAL (Gale Boomerang Arrow Lock). At Mid %'s The GaleRang can hit you and force you to the ground, if you don't tech this Link can use and arrow right after to Lock you into a forced get up. He can follow up with a DAC, Dair, Grab, or Smash or even Continue the GBAL depending on his distance from you. This can also be used to set up a Jab Lock at close range, be careful.
Stater Stage: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise.
These are very good starter stages against Link. Battlefield and Lylat both have plenty of platforms to hamper Link's projectiles game, and Lylat's tilting can prove fatal for Link offstage.
You can consider YI as a starter, but I wouldn't go there. It's very camp friendly.
Ban: Final Destination, Smashville, Norfair.
Regardless of how well we do on them, we do not want to give Link room to camp us. Link really likes these large flat stages and he can camp extremely well on them.
Norfair makes Link's camping extremely difficult to deal with on Norfair. The numerous platforms and even the rising lava can really help his recovery as well. The Low Ceilings make Link's Dair KO extremely early as well.
Counter Pick: Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise, Halberd.
Castle Siege should be your primary CP stage against Link. CS wrecks characters the rely on camping to accomplish anything.
The first part of the stage is very small and gives Link very little room to camp. Staying on top of him is very easy here.
The second part of the stage makes is VERY hard to camp. The various statues and platforms will give Link hell when trying to camp and Mario can abuse his excellent platform pressure if Link finds himself on one. Watch out for the walk-offs though, Link's Bair can KO off the sides. Getting inside and keeping the pressure is very easy here. Be aggressive at this part in the battle.
The third and final stage change is a bit of a mixture between Final Destination and Lylat Cruise. It's flat and tilts. The tilting stage can severely hurt Link offstage when trying to recover, but he can also camp well here. This part of the stage is where you want to camp him back and wait for the stage change back to part one.
Pokemon Stadium one has very small blastzones which will make it much easier to KO Link both vertically and horizontally. The various stage changes give Link's camping game a bit of trouble as well.
Rainbow Cruise is another great stage, Mario's aerial game shines here and the constant moving and stage obstacles prove difficult for Link to deal with. His recovery is also easily gimped on this stage.
Halberd can go either way. Both Link and Mario have their advantages on this stage. CP this stage if you feel comfortable with it.
If I missed anything I'll get back to this post later. Just woke up. xD
Veggi
Smash Champion
The only things I can think of that you missed are walk off nair to gimp him and to worry about his jab cancels (jab2>repeat, jab2 >uptilt, jab>grab).
Also, I have problems with Link's camping game, not just projectiles, but his zair and the range on his attacks make it hard to approach. I still think it's 60-40 Mario though. Very nice write up.
Also, I have problems with Link's camping game, not just projectiles, but his zair and the range on his attacks make it hard to approach. I still think it's 60-40 Mario though. Very nice write up.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
A2ZOMG
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It's just a one frame difference. U-air is better on shield due to starting one frame later and thus closer to the ground. N-air is one frame faster and does slightly better if they try to attack out of D-air.
Against DDD, you want to cross him up while doing D-air so he can't shieldgrab you, and then turnaround Jab after you land behind him. This strategy is also very good against the Ice Climbers, and the reason why they aren't an unwinnable matchup for him.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
I think the summary was done very well, but I have one question. What stages should we ban? I'm thinking FD or Delfino, but I wanna make sure I'm thinking correctly.
I think it's over since Kirin said his wall of text and there's nothing biased about it. Wanna move on? All thats left are low tiers + Fox, Wolf, and Shiek.
I think it's over since Kirin said his wall of text and there's nothing biased about it. Wanna move on? All thats left are low tiers + Fox, Wolf, and Shiek.
A2ZOMG
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Ban Norfair.
Link is extremely gay on that stage.
Link is extremely gay on that stage.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Norfair is banned where I am. NJ has the most strict rules when it comes to stages.
KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
Yeah. Norfair is banned here, so we don't worry about it too much. xD
But yeah, if that stage is legal where you are then ban it.
The stage portion of the write up is at the bottom of it. Perhaps I should have bolded stuff there. xD
But yeah, if that stage is legal where you are then ban it.
The stage portion of the write up is at the bottom of it. Perhaps I should have bolded stuff there. xD
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578
Lucario boards be discussing the Mario MU.
You know what they say, toasters toast, toast!
Lucario boards be discussing the Mario MU.
You know what they say, toasters toast, toast!
A2ZOMG
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Lucario is one of my personal hated matchups. He's really good at being a homo with his dodges, camping, and disjoints, so generally speaking I find the matchup very frustrating.
KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
I used to think the same way, but now it's become a much easier MU for me and I kind of enjoy playing it. I just found ways around his absolutely ******** metagame. xD
vato_break
Smash Master
Kirin will **** this discussion...but from what i know cape and fireball spam are good vs lucario.
A2ZOMG
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I swear I didn't see Norfair on that list of yours last time I checked...
Also, there are two reasons I would avoid Yoshis against Link. High blastzone means if he DIs well he survives longer. And ghost platforms of course can save his *** when you try to gimp him.
KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
Yeah I mentioned YI.
In my experience with playing as Link there it's EXTREMELY camp friendly thanks to the large center platform. Link can camp under it and keep people out really well. Link can also Wall Bomb Tech there to aid his recovery.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Thank you for telling me that. YI is my favorite neutral and its good to know he will do well there. I've got BF and Lylat though. That went by quickly. Let's move on.
JUDGE
Smash Lord
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heey inferno
can we please discuss zzs next?
cuz yesterday i played against the BEST zzs in germany, tayim , and i got totally ***** :/
i really don't know how to fight her.....
please man you would really help me^^
if anyone cares how he fights, he has some (tourney)matches on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82q68I0oZYU
i was too lazy to find the others but i think this is a pretty good fight^^
honestly....our matches wasn't pretty even.....he won like 6 of 10 fights......
but he said he wants to brawl me again, so i have to prepare myself nao^^
can we please discuss zzs next?
cuz yesterday i played against the BEST zzs in germany, tayim , and i got totally ***** :/
i really don't know how to fight her.....
please man you would really help me^^
if anyone cares how he fights, he has some (tourney)matches on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82q68I0oZYU
i was too lazy to find the others but i think this is a pretty good fight^^
honestly....our matches wasn't pretty even.....he won like 6 of 10 fights......
but he said he wants to brawl me again, so i have to prepare myself nao^^
A2ZOMG
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You beat him 4 times out of 10 in that matchup? Awesome!
Because like Warpstatus, the best ZSS in my area...I don't think I've ever beaten his ZSS. <_<
Because like Warpstatus, the best ZSS in my area...I don't think I've ever beaten his ZSS. <_<
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
I'd post but I don't know **** about mario 
$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$
Smash Lord
lol uhh, Mario ***** Link, that's wut you should about Mario 
Why the sudden change in opinion?lol uhh, Mario ***** Link, that's wut you should about Mario
Inferno3044
Smash Master
ZSS has already been discussed. Look on the first page and I think there should be links to the pages which we discussed her. Honestly, I would prefer to talk about everyone before rediscussing anybody even though I wanna rediscuss someone. I will list the characters we haven't discussed then after those are discussed any rediscussions are up for talking.
Fox
Wolf
Shiek
Zelda
Ike
Yoshi
C. Falcon
Ganondorf
It's only 7 people left.