The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[vato_break]

Your Region Don't Compare

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lolllll. Lucas dair isn't a good move? It has a -3 frame advantage on shields. It combos into jab/ftilt/utilt/dtilt/nair/itself/fsmash/grab depending on percents. It has pretty decent range and pressures shields pretty well. It is a really good spacing tool. There isn't really a commitment.

Now you're giving me BS. The advantage on Lucas's D-air if perfectly autocanceled is -9, which is technically enough time for Mario to U-smash out of shield. And no, you CANNOT SH autocancel this. The autocancel is not something you can buffer. Assuming you're in the air as D-air ends, the advantage is minus 28.

Don't give me BS. Lucas's D-air is a situational move at best. It only hits DIRECTLY below him, DI makes it inconsistent, and it's not even that safe on block.

NOOOOO. It's comparable to Lucas getting a fair -> dtilt lock -> fsmash. The reason this is more reliable is the speed and angle at which the opponent is sent towards the ground. Mario's Nair doesn't send the opponent straight down at an extremely fast speed, while Lucas' Dair does.

Doesn't matter. You're not landing either against someone who knows the matchup. Mario in case you forgot can also spike his opponent too to set up Jab locks.

Watch a set with a good lucas (Tyr, Galeon); It happens often.

Against people who actually know the matchup?

Not to say, OMG EVERY STOCK WE USE THIS. I'm just saying, it's not as unreliable as you guys are making it out to be.

Even with this nonsense, it's still easier for Mario to get the KO because he doesn't have to take as many risks to get it.

He does not have better spacing nor pressure in this matchup. His moves are not more safe either.

Mario's D-air UNLIKE Lucas's D-air is a GREAT shield pressure tool. In case you didn't realize, a SH D-air cancels into a N-air or U-air, and this CANNOT be shieldgrabbed by Lucas because Mario can Jab before the grab comes out. Lucas has NOTHING that compares to this.

If it comes to spacing wars, Mario at minimum trades hits, but he also has the advantage in speed and ending lag by far. He can combo better in most situations and follow up better. Lucas only has a few gimmicky setups into KO moves and has to hope his unsafe **** actually lands, while Mario can stay outside of Lucas's range and space F-smash when he whiffs, or he can Up-smash/D-smash out of shield when it is time to get the KO, and this KOs earlier than any of Lucas's aerials or throws.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Your Region Don't Compare

Midwest low tiers are the beeeeest.

I'm tired of arguing with you guys, I'd suggest to the Lucas boards that you just leave, the matchup is even or in your favor. Your obviously not swaying other opinions, I don't even see why they invite you guys other than to argue against every legitimate point you guys make.

Mabye some of you guys should... play good Lucases?

 

[BoTastic!]

Your Region Don't Compare

*ahem*

Spoiler

Since when does region matter.

Edit: I went through the the thread. Anyone who only plays online will think that the match up is in Lucas' favor. I'll have you know Lucas is very difficult to face online. He isn't nearly as hard offline. This is not in Lucas' favor. This is most likely even or 55:45 Mario. I'll go with even though. I still have to face more good Lucas' offline.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

*ahem*

Spoiler

Since when does region matter.

Edit: I went through the the thread. Anyone who only plays online will think that the match up is in Lucas' favor. I'll have you know Lucas is very difficult to face online. He isn't nearly as hard offline. This is not in Lucas' favor. This is most likely even or 55:45 Mario. I'll go with even though. I still have to face more good Lucas' offline.

I respectuflly disagree, have you played Tyr?

 

[BoTastic!]

I respectuflly disagree, have you played Tyr?

Just tyr beat you a lot?

If thats true then that doesn't mean Lucas has the advantage. He could just be better than you.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Just tyr beat you a lot?

If thats true then that doesn't mean Lucas has the advantage. He could just be better than you.

He beat me in the MM we played. I'm quite sure he's better than me, but I felt alot of character-specific problems as well (healing him for 200% probably didn't help -_-') The set is kinda blurry now, but I remember it being hard for me to rack up damage. The Lucases I played online weren't as difficult as that MM so I dunno, I don't even play online much.

Personally, I say it's even if not Lucas's favor, I don't know if I was just playing the matchup wrong or something (minus the fireballs).

 

[Noraa]

i was going to post my 2 cents, but then i read over the disscusion and theres no point. all this is we can do this BUT nooo we can do this to stop that ..rinse lather repeat.

its 50-50..

just go play the mu your **** self lol

 

[JUDGE]

marios dair beats lucas dair
everyone know that<.<
even my little bro....

 

[hippiedude92]

Wow MUs are so dumb. lmao

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Wow MUs are so dumb. lmao

I agree.

In fact, I'm not even posting in this thread anymore, especially not with my matchup opinions.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've actually played this matchup in TOURNAMENT keep in mind. I'm aware of Lucas's range, speed, and whatever tricks he can use, and when I'm playing properly, his stuff is not hard to avoid at all.

Lucas AND Ness are both better on wifi where their camping is actually hard to avoid. Mario on the other hand is not good on wifi because a lot of his strategy requires you to be good at things that aren't just camping.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Now you're giving me BS. The advantage on Lucas's D-air if perfectly autocanceled is -9, which is technically enough time for Mario to U-smash out of shield. And no, you CANNOT SH autocancel this. The autocancel is not something you can buffer. Assuming you're in the air as D-air ends, the advantage is minus 28.

Oops! sorry, I was thinking of somethig else. haha, you're telling me like I don't play the character. "You can't SH this autocancel". I knowww. It autocancels when You FHDair and FF at the apex of the jump.

Anywhoo, Have you ever played a good lucas? you live in CA, maybe you've played Oats?

Don't give me BS. Lucas's D-air is a situational move at best. It only hits DIRECTLY below him, DI makes it inconsistent, and it's not even that safe on block.

WHAT? situational AT BEST? Really? I feel like you've never seen a competent lucas player. Also, the hitbox extends slighty to the side of him. It's only not directly under.

Doesn't matter. You're not landing either against someone who knows the matchup. Mario in case you forgot can also spike his opponent too to set up Jab locks.

It's NOT THE SAME. Lucas FH dair sucks an opponent into the air then shoots him back down, meaning he doesn't have to wait for the opponent to be airborne; He does it himself. FH dair autocancels into a buffered dtilt. The last hit will be on the descent. Mario Has to do a FH fair, that autocancels, but his last hit [and only] will be near where he reaches his peak. If he FF then it won't autocancel. And he has to wait for startup lag, the opponent to be airborne, and other things.

Against people who actually know the matchup?

Yes.

Even with this nonsense, it's still easier for Mario to get the KO because he doesn't have to take as many risks to get it.

Explain Mario's risks. Dair isn't risky. Dsmash isn't riskt unless it's powershielded. Pivot grab is pretty safe and dthrow kills well. Fsmash is also extremely safe when spaced at max range. I'm not arguing this point, I just need to know if mario has any guaranteed and practical setups

Mario's D-air UNLIKE Lucas's D-air is a GREAT shield pressure tool. In case you didn't realize, a SH D-air cancels into a N-air or U-air, and this CANNOT be shieldgrabbed by Lucas because Mario can Jab before the grab comes out. Lucas has NOTHING that compares to this.

Hmm... I guess a Nair with a 0 frame advantage is nothing that compare with Mario's Dair.

If it comes to spacing wars, Mario at minimum trades hits, but he also has the advantage in speed and ending lag by far. He can combo better in most situations and follow up better. Lucas only has a few gimmicky setups into KO moves and has to hope his unsafe **** actually lands, while Mario can stay outside of Lucas's range and space F-smash when he whiffs, or he can Up-smash/D-smash out of shield when it is time to get the KO, and this KOs earlier than any of Lucas's aerials or throws.

I feel like this is helpless. It's not that you won't be persuaded; it's just that you're arguing, when you clearly don't know the character[Lucas]. I haven't really been arguing the matchup. It's more that I'm just trying to inform you on Lucas.

You guys can put 60:40, 50:50 100:0. Idrc. I just don't want it to be based on a lack of understanding. It's not like I'm going to be using this anyway

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I've actually played this matchup in TOURNAMENT keep in mind. I'm aware of Lucas's range, speed, and whatever tricks he can use, and when I'm playing properly, his stuff is not hard to avoid at all.

Lucas AND Ness are both better on wifi where their camping is actually hard to avoid. Mario on the other hand is not good on wifi because a lot of his strategy requires you to be good at things that aren't just camping.

Why are you bringing up WiFi? I don't play WiFi -_-' I don't think anybody else here really plays WiFi much.

 

[JUDGE]

@pinkfresh

wtf did you say? lucas dsmash is not risky?
lol^^
in this case rolling behind lucas means freekill for mario

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oops! sorry, I was thinking of somethig else. haha, you're telling me like I don't play the character. "You can't SH this autocancel". I knowww. It autocancels when You FHDair and FF at the apex of the jump.

Anywhoo, Have you ever played a good lucas? you live in CA, maybe you've played Oats?

Unfortunately I have not played Oats.

WHAT? situational AT BEST? Really? I feel like you've never seen a competent lucas player. Also, the hitbox extends slighty to the side of him. It's only not directly under.

Here is what I do when Lucas D-airs. I just run to the side and space an aerial, or I shield and use an aerial out of shield, and it punishes him as long as he's in range. It lasts so long that it can be punished by good spacing. Lucas can't even D-air safely when Mario is using HIS fullhopped D-air spacing tricks. Mario's air game is better than Lucas's because he has much less commitment on his aerials meaning he can move from one aerial to another a lot faster. He has more options.

Explain Mario's risks. Dair isn't risky. Dsmash isn't riskt unless it's powershielded. Pivot grab is pretty safe and dthrow kills well. Fsmash is also extremely safe when spaced at max range. I'm not arguing this point, I just need to know if mario has any guaranteed and practical setups

D-air requires situational spacing that can easily be capitalized on. If D-air was actually a good shield pressure tool or approach, which it is not, Lucas would be potential high tier material, which he is OBVIOUSLY not.

D-smash is one of his better KO moves, although I can camp while you D-smash, and its ending lag is still punishable with Mario's F-smash.

Pivot grab isn't that good.

D-throw is good, but doesn't KO early enough to win the argument I'm expressing here.

Mario doesn't need guaranteed setups. He's fundamentally better at just landing his moves. His moves are more practical in terms of speed and range. Lucas has to do more gimmicky stuff to land a KO move while Mario can just sit back and outrange Lucas with F-smash, or punish out of shield with Up-smash or D-smash to get the KO. If you're looking for a good setup, Jab Jab canceled D-smash is a good KO setup that is unblockable.

Hmm... I guess a Nair with a 0 frame advantage is nothing that compare with Mario's Dair.

Again, this is misleading. You can't actually buffer that autocancel window. The advantage of SH N-air is actually -5. If you land in front of Mario, that technically can be shieldgrabbed, or Mario can Up-B out of shield.

Seriously, read your data more carefully. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Kanzaki]

Like I said, I probably have more match experience than any one that posted here. Match up is even and advantage goes to the player's ability to mind game each other. End topic, next character.



lol@ness.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

We should do Ness next.

 

[Kanzaki]

Get Ness off the stage some how, via throwing, kicking, pushing, unplugging his controller plugging yours into his port and walking off, caping, what ever means you like.

Game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I agree.

In fact, I'm not even posting in this thread anymore, especially not with my matchup opinions.

I just read the thread for lulz, tbh...

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

lol Ness, don't fireball spam, Ness luv doing that magnet cancel if u spam fireballz. of course, we can pull gay moves on Ness players. Everyone knows the cape and Fludd ***** his recovery and edgeguard him very well, he's less challenging than Lucas in my opinion. I got question, ain't Ness ain't suppose to be gud around platforms while fighting Mario? This matchup will never be 50/50 lol, this is just Mario's favor

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness plays differently from Lucas, yet you approach the matchup exactly the same way, and you win it.

Avoid random PK Fires (powershield or Cape on reaction), avoid random F-airs and D-airs (not to mention the occasional B-air which Ness is more likely to use), avoid and punish random F-smashes with your own F-smash, space the **** out of him (which is a viable strategy), and gimp him with the FLUDD or Cape when you get the chance.

Ness unlike Lucas actually has a good grab, and his F-air is more annoying than any of Lucas's aerials. So keep that in mind and you should be fine.

 

[JUDGE]

lol funny how you guys turned the discussion from lucas to ness^^

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

@pinkfresh

wtf did you say? lucas dsmash is not risky?
lol^^
in this case rolling behind lucas means freekill for mario

If it hits your shield, unless it's powershielded, it's safe. the pushback on the shield will make rolling behind Lucas impossible, as you woukd get hit by the third hit. The first two will push you out of range for any attack. It's good to use as spacing for mid speed and lower chars, especially chars with bad traction, like ICs, and Luigi.

I know my character. I just have frame stuff off a little lol

Unfortunately I have not played Oats.

Aww mannn =/

Here is what I do when Lucas D-airs. I just run to the side and space an aerial, or I shield and use an aerial out of shield, and it punishes him as long as he's in range. It lasts so long that it can be punished by good spacing. Lucas can't even D-air safely when Mario is using HIS fullhopped D-air spacing tricks. Mario's air game is better than Lucas's because he has much less commitment on his aerials meaning he can move from one aerial to another a lot faster. He has more options.

D-air requires situational spacing that can easily be capitalized on. If D-air was actually a good shield pressure tool or approach, which it is not, Lucas would be potential high tier material, which he is OBVIOUSLY not.

D-smash is one of his better KO moves, although I can camp while you D-smash, and its ending lag is still punishable with Mario's F-smash.

Pivot grab isn't that good.

D-throw is good, but doesn't KO early enough to win the argument I'm expressing here.

Mario doesn't need guaranteed setups. He's fundamentally better at just landing his moves. His moves are more practical in terms of speed and range. Lucas has to do more gimmicky stuff to land a KO move while Mario can just sit back and outrange Lucas with F-smash, or punish out of shield with Up-smash or D-smash to get the KO. If you're looking for a good setup, Jab Jab canceled D-smash is a good KO setup that is unblockable.

Dair isn't for shield pressure; It's for spacing. And uhh, Running to the side[I'm not even sure which side you mean] and using an aerial won't work often as Dair can get in and out of your range quickly.

Hmmm I see. Now, Hopefully my last question is how do you rack up damage? Like, how do you get into range?

Again, this is misleading. You can't actually buffer that autocancel window. The advantage of SH N-air is actually -5. If you land in front of Mario, that technically can be shieldgrabbed, or Mario can Up-B out of shield.

Seriously, read your data more carefully. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Hmmm?

Wait explain this part to me plz? The frame data said the autocancel advantage was 0 ._.

Soooo, I'm still gunning for even. I haven't been convinced that this is 60:40 or worse. At worse, it's 55:45.

Eww I hate ratios. even =D

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm I see. Now, Hopefully my last question is how do you rack up damage? Like, how do you get into range?

With superior speed on aerials and the ability to do multiple aerials in one jump, it's something that just happens. The fast speed of Mario's aerials gives him a very good out of shield game, and combo game.

Lucas doesn't outrange Mario to the point where he rarely trades hits.

Hmmm?

Wait explain this part to me plz? The frame data said the autocancel advantage was 0 ._.

It's quite simple actually. The autocancel advantage does not account for WHEN you started N-air during Lucas's jump.

Lucas's short hop lasts 32 frames, but the "perfect" autocancel window that gives you a 0 frame advantage on shield starts on frame 27 of Lucas's N-air as I read.

The most common way you can get a decent autocancel is by buffering Lucas's N-air on the first frame he is airbone, meaning Lucas's N-air ISN'T usually autocanceling on frame 27, but rather on frame 32. Those 5 extra frames you are in the air means your advantage is actually -5 (or is it -4? Either way, it takes 2 frames to spotdodge or Jab, so that is grabable). Delaying Lucas's N-air is possible, but risky considering how it's EVEN MORE PUNISHABLE if you don't autocancel.

Also, fastfalling N-air during a certain point doesn't work the same way, because there is a different landing lag animation for fastfalling as opposed to normal falling that lasts a few extra frames. Just thought I would point out.

Then again, I should point out that Lucas's N-air is probably better on other characters that are not named Mario. Mario just happens to have a good out of shield game. Still, my D-air > your N-air in this matchup. =P

 

[hippiedude92]

I honestly wish I was good at frame data lol...

Besides.. only time dez 2 will ever meet is Low Tier events lol...

 

[A2ZOMG]

I honestly wish I was good at frame data lol...

Besides.. only time dez 2 will ever meet is Low Tier events lol...

You don't have to be like me to be cool. <3

I'm getting worried that Mario will be banned from low tiers in the future lmao. The more I learn about him, the more I'm convinced he doesn't belong in the low tier.

 

[BoTastic!]

You don't have to be like me to be cool. <3

I'm getting worried that Mario will be banned from low tiers in the future lmao. The more I learn about him, the more I'm convinced he doesn't belong in the low tier.

The only person that takes me out of low tier is Ally. ****!

 

[Flameleon]

-Don't worry, guys, Mario will be always a Low Tier char, haha...-

 

[A2ZOMG]

When I actually get tech skill, and attend more tournaments, that's going to change.

 

[Matt07]

There's so many numbers, makes my head hurt . Bringing frame numbers is soo confusing for me.

And yes, tomorrow is a Smashfest so I can improve my Mario again .

 

[Inferno3044]

Honestly, if he's low tier that's fine with me. I think he isn't but if everyone else does then I can just do well in low tiers.

@Bo - Ally's Falcon is just crack.

I think we need to put up a ratio since I think we have enough data. I'm thinking 55:45 Mario and I think Kanzaki says its even. Anybody else wanna put in a ratio?

 

[Matt07]

I'm gonna throw in even.

 

[PsychoNess]

Ness has advantage onstage imo. Fair > Mario. I magnet cancel alot. Use fire balls at mid close range so his magnet is unable to come out in time. Its just when mario gets Ness of stage matchup changes. I say 55 45 Mario. For Lucas I just say 55 45 or 60 40 Mario.

 

[Inferno3044]

Ness has advantage onstage imo. Fair > Mario. I magnet cancel alot. Use fire balls at mid close range so his magnet is unable to come out in time. Its just when mario gets Ness of stage matchup changes. I say 55 45 Mario. For Lucas I just say 55 45 or 60 40 Mario.

Ness is later. I think the same vs. Lucas.

Also why were there so many posts the day i was busy?

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

uhh so wuts it gonna be 50/50 or 55/45 for Mario vs Lucas, our favor or even..

 

[Kanzaki]

Myself and Bo called even.


I probably have the most Lucas experience, and Bo's one of the, if not the, best Mario here and he called even as well.


Topic ends there.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Myself and Bo called even.


I probably have the most Lucas experience, and Bo's one of the, if not the, best Mario here and he called even as well.


Topic ends there.

I agree w/ you and Bo X7, btw that Lucas player is mad gud and u too, SupaT.

 

[Uffe]

Sooo. I couldn't help but notice the guy above me being in here. I remembered him using both Ness and Mario. Anyway, assuming you guys are going to do Ness...for the second time, I thought I'd go ahead and spill it. But before I do, do match up discussions keep on going continuously or what? I mean we've had this discussion before.

I'm going to get this out of the way really quick, because I know it's a popular meme to you guys. Ness does not always recover below the stage. Your F.L.U.D.D. will not always be 100% successful. So I don't even want to read any of that in this discussion because it's all theoretical. Now I'm going to begin with Ness.

Ness:
Ness has a lot of kill moves at his disposal. His Yo-yo, nair, uair and dair are all good against Mario's Cape. His fair makes a good wall and hits multiple times. PK Thunder can be used to harass Mario while he's in the air or off stage and even though this may not seem like much, it's good for racking up damage safely and effectively. A simple attack can cancel out the PK Thunder, but most likely it'll be used for tail whipping before actually hitting with the head.

Against Mario's Fireballs, Ness can use his PSI Magnet to absorb his projectile and his PSI Magnet can lag cancel once it takes in that projectile. That means he'll be able to jump, run, strike, dodge or grab out of his PSI Magnet after the projectile is absorbed. This is obviously situational, but it does work quite well. Of course I'm not sure who is really going to use their PSI Magnet in the first place.

Mario:
Mario can rack up damage quick and he can combo effectively. His bair is probably one of his best next to his uair. His bair is pretty good for setting up walls and comes out quite quick. Mario also has some pretty good kill moves as well. Like all of his opponents, Mario can make use of his F.L.U.D.D. not only off stage but on stage as well. It can create a barrier against Ness' attacks.

There's most likely a lot more to Mario. But for some reason I can't think of much. Strange seeing I was using him really good the other day, too. Sorry it the next match up isn't Mario vs Ness. Anyway, I've always thought this was an even match up, but most would say 55:45, Mario.

 

[Matador]

I'm going to get this out of the way really quick, because I know it's a popular meme to you guys. Ness does not always recover below the stage. Your F.L.U.D.D. will not always be 100% successful. So I don't even want to read any of that in this discussion because it's all theoretical. Now I'm going to begin with Ness.

Matchup discussions are nothing but theoretical. In fact, the only thing discussed that isn't theory, are the numbers, like frame data.

Everything else is conditional; far too much so to rely upon the way they're designed to.

Btw, from this point forward, just assume that I always agree with Bo on the ratio.