The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[hippiedude92]

One word.

Do

not

****ing

get Fsmash'd killed by Lucas.

It sucks trust me lol. 5/5 or 6/4 lucas imo.

 

[Kanzaki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h0EB5ThWmQ


:D


I'm pretty sure I have more Lucas experience than almost everybody here, I call even, slight advantages goes on the player's mindgaming abilities.

 

[Inferno3044]

Lucas' magnet is not like the bucket. I consider it the inverse or opposite. It has too much begining lag and not enough ending lag. If a Lucas magnet's a projectile he can jump or crouch out of it to avoid an attack while gaining health. Inventively, it's called magnet cancel.

Point: Don't fireball camp

I said to use them to approach. In other words, try to catch them off guard with it use something like dair to either damage or pressure them. We can also use them off stage to help gimp. If you use the magnet and not with the PK Fire, you will just fall down, making it easier to gimp.

You are correct about the fact that a Mario shouldn't fireball camp. Also according to you, it won't be as easy to punish as bucket, but it should be possible.

One word.

Do

not

****ing

get Fsmash'd killed by Lucas.

It sucks trust me lol. 5/5 or 6/4 lucas imo.

What does Lucas have over Mario?

 

[hippiedude92]

l forgot Tony has like a low tier crew lmfao.

yeah i think he does.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One word.

Do

not

****ing

get Fsmash'd killed by Lucas.

It sucks trust me lol. 5/5 or 6/4 lucas imo.

Hippiedude, I like NEVER get F-smashed by Lucas. That attack is SO easy to avoid. I just space outside its range because I know my F-smash outranges it.

Mario has the advantage in KO moves if you ask me. KO moves are all easier to land.

 

[hippiedude92]

you and your fsmashs david lol.

im just saying

don't get hit.

it's redicuously dumb to get hit by it, becuase of how dumb it's ko power it has

 

[HeroMystic]

Why are people saying Lucas' favor?

 

[Inferno3044]

Hippiedude, I like NEVER get F-smashed by Lucas. That attack is SO easy to avoid. I just space outside its range because I know my F-smash outranges it.

Mario has the advantage in KO moves if you ask me. KO moves are all easier to land.

I agree, but KO power definitely goes to Lucas. The difference is that Lucas has to try harder to get a kill move then we do. All of his smashes are punishable by our Fsmash.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I said to use them to approach. In other words, try to catch them off guard with it use something like dair to either damage or pressure them.

It does have a hitbox you know...

We can also use them off stage to help gimp. If you use the magnet and not with the PK Fire, you will just fall down, making it easier to gimp.

You're trying to get Lucas to a 45 degree angle if i'm not mistaken. This is the perfect angle to Lucas, now if you're baiting to do it to a cape, this should work.

You are correct about the fact that a Mario shouldn't fireball camp. Also according to you, it won't be as easy to punish as bucket, but it should be possible.

I wouldn't try... you could eat a d-air to d-tilt lock to f-smash...

What does Lucas have over Mario?

Awesome hair

 

[Asdioh]

I was gonna ask in the FAQ thread, since my Mario friend (XeroXen) isn't on AIM, but you're conveniently discussing Lucas.

I was playing friendlies with Kawaiibunny earlier, and she was Mario and I was Lucas. She like, point-blank caped a PK Fire and it sent me flying off the stage, and I would have been KO'd off the side if I had been closer to the edge of the stage.

Just wondering if this was already known ._. I'm assuming it is, but I hadn't seen it and it was pretty lolzy :3

You guys have tested Cape **** extensively I'm sure, so I seriously doubt this is new.

 

[Inferno3044]

I was gonna ask in the FAQ thread, since my Mario friend (XeroXen) isn't on AIM, but you're conveniently discussing Lucas.

I was playing friendlies with Kawaiibunny earlier, and she was Mario and I was Lucas. She like, point-blank caped a PK Fire and it sent me flying off the stage, and I would have been KO'd off the side if I had been closer to the edge of the stage.

Just wondering if this was already known ._. I'm assuming it is, but I hadn't seen it and it was pretty lolzy :3

You guys have tested Cape **** extensively I'm sure, so I seriously doubt this is new.

So you're saying is that she caped for PK Fire and you at the same time and you were sent flying. Well that would make sense. The cape itself multiplies projectile damage by 1.5 causing more knockback and the cape boosts momentum which would add more. Solution to this: space your PK Fires XD.

 

[Asdioh]

Solution to this: space your PK Fires XD.

wifi >:O

also I don't play Lucas that often, he's just fun to play lol.

So is Mario, but I have an inexplicable habit of spamming SHFairs which is...really bad with Mario. lol.

Sorry, I'll leave nao. Good luck with your matchup discussion.

Spoiler

it's obviously in MK's favor

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was playing friendlies with Kawaiibunny earlier, and she was Mario and I was Lucas. She like, point-blank caped a PK Fire and it sent me flying off the stage, and I would have been KO'd off the side if I had been closer to the edge of the stage.

Just wondering if this was already known ._. I'm assuming it is, but I hadn't seen it and it was pretty lolzy :3

You guys have tested Cape **** extensively I'm sure, so I seriously doubt this is new.

Nothing new indeed. I've actually done this against Kirby's Final Cutter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjtzwmKC9Gs

And lol, that video was the reason why I got Boss to discover the Cape ****. j/k

 

[Asdioh]

Nothing new indeed. I've actually done this against Kirby's Final Cutter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjtzwmKC9Gs

And lol, that video was the reason why I got Boss to discover the Cape ****. j/k

LOL

That was pretty much exactly what happened to me. Surprised it's never happened to my Kirby XD

Alright, thanks. Figured it was nothing new. Mario's broken >:O

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Time for my crazy good contribution skills:

Even.

 

[vato_break]

fludd ***** ness

 

[KirinBlaze]

This is Lucas.
He can actually recover.

I played DireVulcan's Lucas at Bum's place a few weeks back.
His Lucas is nasty.

I def think this is an Even MU.

 

[Kanzaki]

Even though I already called even already, I want to shut down the Lucas players a few levels cause that's always fun :D



While they're recovering, the magnet pull is SO easy to see coming, when you hear "pk fire", obviously they're gonna psi magnet directly after... just jump up and intercept it with any aerials, and if you want some cool points, intercept it with a fair :D

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

fludd ***** ness

That's true!

 

[Matt07]

Lucas can K.O waaay earlier then we can, not to mention his (his fsmash probably comes out like frame 8? and there's barely ANY lag), it's like Luigi's. Except better range O_o.

 

[jmanxiv]

55-45 or 60-40, mario has an advantage over lucas, no 50-50

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas can K.O waaay earlier then we can, not to mention his (his fsmash probably comes out like frame 8? and there's barely ANY lag), it's like Luigi's. Except better range O_o.

I want A2ZOMG to correct this one...


Also, when you cape PKF, it only goes a certain distance. Most Lucas' will wavebounce their PKFires so you can't reflect it back

 

[Kanzaki]

If a Lucas gets hit by their own PK fire, it should only be once in like every 20 pk fires(being generous... but should be more rare than this) due to the Lucas player messing up.

Best way to deal with pk fire is instead of trying to cape it, just power shield, air dodge, or spot dodge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas can K.O waaay earlier then we can, not to mention his (his fsmash probably comes out like frame 8? and there's barely ANY lag), it's like Luigi's. Except better range O_o.

Yeah so RocketPSIence called.

Firstoff, his F-smash is frame 14. That is only 1 frame faster than Mario's. It's still easily blockable on reaction if he's just doing random F-smashes.

Luigi's F-smash is actually frame 12, and KOs at least 10% lower than Lucas's generally

The next thing is that Lucas's F-smash is significantly more laggy than Luigi's F-smash (or Mario's F-smash for that matter), and that Mario's F-smash actually outranges it pretty significantly. If you see him F-smash, don't let him get away with it. Space a reverse F-smash and punish his ending lag. I do this all the time (against Lucas players who might not be used to the matchup, but still, the point is that his F-smash is not all that good).

His D-smash imo is a better KO move in that it can be a bit safer, but again it is easily avoided on reaction. His Up-smash is more or less a gimmick, much like Ike's Forward Smash.

KO percents since I have my Wii:

Mario vs Lucas
Up angled F-smash: 99
U-smash: 121
D-smash: 141

Lucas vs Mario
F-smash: 96
D-smash: Whoa, this was a ***** to test. The DI on it in training mode is completely random. It has similar power to F-smash it seems.
U-air: 152

And just to let you know, Lucas's other aerials KO at percents similar to what is listed for his U-air (bottom of FD), but I'm too lazy to get the exact percent right now.

And just for lulz
Luigi vs Mario
Up angled F-smash: 81

Lucas doesn't even win KO percents by that much. But anyhow, what matters is how easily those KO moves can be landed, and Mario has a more significant advantage here.

 

[Matt07]

Aah, alright thanks A2, it's just harder to block maybe because I was playing WiFi. Also I get hit by u-smash quite a bit. I can say this is a match-up where being predictable on the ledge will get you punished horribly .

 

[Tyr_03]

Dude, Lucas can combo into his Fsmash and Usmash.

 

[Inferno3044]

Even though I already called even already, I want to shut down the Lucas players a few levels cause that's always fun :D



While they're recovering, the magnet pull is SO easy to see coming, when you hear "pk fire", obviously they're gonna psi magnet directly after... just jump up and intercept it with any aerials, and if you want some cool points, intercept it with a fair :D

That's true. Every time a Lucas is kind of high in the air, he will do that making it very predictable. They do it all the time if the are hit slightly vertically.

Lucas can K.O waaay earlier then we can, not to mention his (his fsmash probably comes out like frame 8? and there's barely ANY lag), it's like Luigi's. Except better range O_o.

You can see Lucas' coming. You see him take out a stick. To me that says "oh he's gonna use Fsmash. I'm gonna have him miss and punish him." His other ones are very slow and we can see those coming very easily. He's not too heavy either so we can kill him kinda early.

Dude, Lucas can combo into his Fsmash and Usmash.

I doubt you have any combos that we cant shield the smash. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

One thing that I was dumb enough to have happen to me against a Ness I wanna say that also applies to Lucas. If he uses PKT and you think he might do PKT2, just let him. Don't try to punish him except with a fireball if you think that will happen. Honestly, I don't think Lucas has that much and just because we can't gimp him easily doesn't mean he's harder. Sonic, Jiggz, and ROB are way harder to gimp and we do well against them. I've lost to one Lucas while I'm at the skill level I'm at now. He's a better player than I am and that's why he won. Not because his character had a good matchup against me. I think it's 55:45 Mario and a slight possibility of it being 60:40 Mario due to the fact that if you are playing extremely intelligently, it should be kinda easy. Also, I like fighting this guy on FD and Lylat. Makes it harder for him to recover.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Even though I already called even already, I want to shut down the Lucas players a few levels cause that's always fun :D



While they're recovering, the magnet pull is SO easy to see coming, when you hear "pk fire", obviously they're gonna psi magnet directly after... just jump up and intercept it with any aerials, and if you want some cool points, intercept it with a fair :D

Right. That doesn't work. A Reverse PK fire gives enough of a boost, to the point where the magnet doesn't even have to be used. Meaning, after a PK fire it isn't obvious, because I can:
Jump
Bair
Nair
Dair
Airdodge
Magnet
PK Fire

Don't assume it's always going to be a magnet pull after a pk fire offstage.

55-45 or 60-40, mario has an advantage over lucas, no 50-50

No, It's even.

If a Lucas gets hit by their own PK fire, it should only be once in like every 20 pk fires(being generous... but should be more rare than this) due to the Lucas player messing up.

Best way to deal with pk fire is instead of trying to cape it, just power shield, air dodge, or spot dodge.

ya just powershield.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol yea we have combos that you can't shield the smash. Dair > Dtilt > Usmash/Fsmash.

Consider yourself corrected.

 

[Matt07]

Wow...so basically we're guaranteed death at 60%. How is this still an even match-up lol? >_< Why can't we have anything combo into fsmash

 

[A2ZOMG]

His D-air is not even that good of an attack, and the times he can use it are situational considering how it needs to be spaced, and due to the commitment he has on it. You can DI or tech out of the whole D-air to D-tilt stuff.

Even with the whole D-air to stuff nonsense, it's still easier for Mario to land KO moves.

It's comparable to Mario landing N-air, getting a Jab lock, into guaranteed F-smash.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h0EB5ThWmQ


:D


I'm pretty sure I have more Lucas experience than almost everybody here, I call even, slight advantages goes on the player's mindgaming abilities.

lol I agree w/ Kanzaki, Mario and Lucas can be even due to edgeguard each other very well, I don't see how Lucas gets 55 while Mario is 45, and my friend mains Ness and Lucas, hes like Mario has the adventage over Ness and Lucas but Lucas is better to fight off Mario than Ness.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh and as for what Kanzaki says about mindgames winning this matchup...

Mario has more mindgames than Lucas.

I say this seriously by the way, although I just don't feel like explaining step by step how Mario has more mixups and ways to poke safely.

 

[Inferno3044]

lol yea we have combos that you can't shield the smash. Dair > Dtilt > Usmash/Fsmash.

Consider yourself corrected.

I would, but it's isn't reliable. I tested this and they can jut DI or jump out of his dair. We can also tech the floor making us able to react. I'm not saying its impossible, but it's definitely something we can break out of. It can work, but it's definitely able to be escaped from.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

A2, for one I have to say something to you. Mindgames ARE NOT character dependent, they have to do entirely with the player. Saying Mario has more mindgames than any character is just irritating. As for another thing, we can't calculate mindgames into matchups, I thought this was commonly known?

If you guys don't want to listen to me, I don't give a ****, but the matchup is 45:55 Lucas.

By the way A2, Lucas's Dair to Dtilt Fsmash isn't at all comparable to Mario's jab lock because Tyr (at least) pulls it off all the time, when the only time we really land jab locks against good players is on Luigi's... mabye.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2, for one I have to say something to you. Mindgames ARE NOT character dependent, they have to do entirely with the player. Saying Mario has more mindgames than any character is just irritating. As for another thing, we can't calculate mindgames into matchups, I thought this was commonly known?

Mindgames ARE character dependent. Character limitations determine the ways you can influence your opponent. Mario has more ways to mix up and pressure than Lucas does, and he also has more ways to trick his opponent into getting hit by a KO move. This is just because Mario is faster in general and due to other things like how Mario's F-smash has MUCH more deceptive range, and due to the different ways Mario can mess his opponent up with Jab canceling.

By the way A2, Lucas's Dair to Dtilt Fsmash isn't at all comparable to Mario's jab lock because Tyr (at least) pulls it off all the time, when the only time we really land jab locks against good players is on Luigi's... mabye.

It IS comparable. Both are escapable on reaction. People however may not bother to learn escaping a gimmick like that because Lucas is not considered a threat at tournament.

Even with Lucas's D-air setup, against someone who knows how to deal with it, it's a gimmick at best. Mario in general has more reliable ways of setting up KO moves, and Lucas really doesn't KO him much earlier to warrant any advantages in getting the KO.

And seriously, when you learn spacing with Mario, Mario really just has the advantage in general at just spacing, pressure, ON TOP OF landing KO moves. Mario in general has the safer movepool that leaves him more options open.

 

[Inferno3044]

A2, for one I have to say something to you. Mindgames ARE NOT character dependent, they have to do entirely with the player. Saying Mario has more mindgames than any character is just irritating. As for another thing, we can't calculate mindgames into matchups, I thought this was commonly known?

I have no idea why A2 brought that up. You're right that it has no effect.

If you guys don't want to listen to me, I don't give a ****, but the matchup is 45:55 Lucas.

What does Lucas have over Mario? I have heard nothing about what he really has over us

By the way A2, Lucas's Dair to Dtilt Fsmash isn't at all comparable to Mario's jab lock because Tyr (at least) pulls it off all the time, when the only time we really land jab locks against good players is on Luigi's... mabye.

It doesn't always work. First thing that has to be done is that Lucas has to hit you with the last hit of dair. It isn't hard to DI out of that move and you can jump out of it. Next, it won't work if you tech the stage which most good players will do. It's obvious when he will use it. He will SH above you because it's only hit box is directly below him. I do get the point that this will probably happen more than our jab lock but if this combo was reliable, he wouldn't be low tier.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Mindgames ARE character dependent. Character limitations determine the ways you can influence your opponent. Mario has more ways to mix up and pressure than Lucas does, and he also has more ways to trick his opponent into getting hit by a KO move. This is just because Mario is faster in general and due to other things like how Mario's F-smash has MUCH more deceptive range, and due to the different ways Mario can mess his opponent up with Jab canceling.

It IS comparable. Both are escapable on reaction. People however may not bother to learn escaping a gimmick like that because Lucas is not considered a threat at tournament.

Even with Lucas's D-air setup, against someone who knows how to deal with it, it's a gimmick at best. Mario in general has more reliable ways of setting up KO moves, and Lucas really doesn't KO him much earlier to warrant any advantages in getting the KO.

And seriously, when you learn spacing with Mario, Mario really just has the advantage in general at just spacing, pressure, ON TOP OF landing KO moves. Mario in general has the safer movepool that leaves him more options open.

Just gonna comment that I know how to space, good sir. And the problem has nothing to do with getting a KO (or getting KO'd for that matter), the problem is approaching and getting damage. I recall living to such high percents aginst Tyr where I ended up being killed by PSI Magnet.

Inferno, lemme ask you this. How're you gonna approach Lucas? With fireballs? He just gets healed, I mean you could try to space Bair... anything else and your getting punished. You might get a grab if you bait and powershield PSI Magnet... mabye. The problem (for me anyway) is getting his damage racked up. I typically play rather defensive, and yeah, that won't be going down well in this matchup.

I'm done since I'm posting on my Wii and I'm kinda tired.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

His D-air is not even that good of an attack, and the times he can use it are situational considering how it needs to be spaced, and due to the commitment he has on it. You can DI or tech out of the whole D-air to D-tilt stuff.

Even with the whole D-air to stuff nonsense, it's still easier for Mario to land KO moves.

It's comparable to Mario landing N-air, getting a Jab lock, into guaranteed F-smash.

Lolllll. Lucas dair isn't a good move? It has a -3 frame advantage on shields. It combos into jab/ftilt/utilt/dtilt/nair/itself/fsmash/grab depending on percents. It has pretty decent range and pressures shields pretty well. It is a really good spacing tool. There isn't really a commitment.

NOOOOO. It's comparable to Lucas getting a fair -> dtilt lock -> fsmash. The reason this is more reliable is the speed and angle at which the opponent is sent towards the ground. Mario's Nair doesn't send the opponent straight down at an extremely fast speed, while Lucas' Dair does.

Watch a set with a good lucas (Tyr, Galeon); It happens often.

I would, but it's isn't reliable. I tested this and they can jut DI or jump out of his dair. We can also tech the floor making us able to react. I'm not saying its impossible, but it's definitely something we can break out of. It can work, but it's definitely able to be escaped from.

It is reliable, because it works against good players quite often. it SOUNDS unreliable, but in practice it is not. Also, you definitely can't jump out of his dair. What Lucas' have you been playing?

Not to say, OMG EVERY STOCK WE USE THIS. I'm just saying, it's not as unreliable as you guys are making it out to be.

Mindgames ARE character dependent. Character limitations determine the ways you can influence your opponent. Mario has more ways to mix up and pressure than Lucas does, and he also has more ways to trick his opponent into getting hit by a KO move. This is just because Mario is faster in general and due to other things like how Mario's F-smash has MUCH more deceptive range, and due to the different ways Mario can mess his opponent up with Jab canceling.

It IS comparable. Both are escapable on reaction. People however may not bother to learn escaping a gimmick like that because Lucas is not considered a threat at tournament.

Even with Lucas's D-air setup, against someone who knows how to deal with it, it's a gimmick at best. Mario in general has more reliable ways of setting up KO moves, and Lucas really doesn't KO him much earlier to warrant any advantages in getting the KO.

And seriously, when you learn spacing with Mario, Mario really just has the advantage in general at just spacing, pressure, ON TOP OF landing KO moves. Mario in general has the safer movepool that leaves him more options open.

Mindgames are definitely character dependent. I can't say who has more. That's not really part of the matchup. Alot of Sonic's matchups would be ridiculously in his favor, if that were the case.

He does not have better spacing nor pressure in this matchup. His moves are not more safe either.

Also, Dair can combo directly into Fsmash at percents just below the percent where an opponent is knocked to the ground.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol I'm going to Dair combo all of you.

Get at me, Mario.