The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Inferno3044]

OK. I am starting to believe I can be wrong.

I've learned by experimenting against a Bowser that camping won't work or at least can't be relied on. (maybe I'm bad at camping though) I did learn it's kinda like a combination of fighting ROB and D3. Like ROB, you just gotta combo him to oblivion to rack damage. Since he has the best defense in the game, it's not as easy. Like D3, don't wanna get grabbed cuz grab release to Dtilt is pretty nice. I would want to fight some offline Bowser's before I figure out my final opinion on the ratio. I can get screwed over on wifi. I guess for now, even is fine. I need a Bowser that is around my level so I can figure it out.


EDIT: I want to discuss Jigglypuff next because there are a lot of them in low tier tourneys here.

 

[Matador]

It's also completely useless against Bowser. Well I'm glad we're all cleared up on that.

Lmfao, your credibility is now forfeit. Lrn2mariomoar

 

[Veggi]

If you powershield an attack, it completely restores your shield. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Matador]

I honestly didn't know that. Don't ask me how....but I had no idea. It must be why I never have problems with low shield.

 

[KirinBlaze]

I think I have videos of Gen and I playing somewhere.
WiFi, but it shows some good MU points.
I'll get 'em when I get my Wii back.

 

[Flayl]

Lmfao, your credibility is now forfeit. Lrn2mariomoar

The guy who originally said the MU was in Mario's favor now says camping doesn't work on him.

Let's face it, mario can't camp anybody LOL

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario can camp against anyone (that isn't named G&W for the most part). He's a pro at edgecamping, and his fireball camping is a lot more versatile than you would expect.

And furthermore I mentioned stuff about how Mario can punish anything Bowser does quite decently....Bowser's recovery sucks, and his shield only lasts so long.

Bowser only possibly wins this matchup on BF and maybe a stage like Green Greens. Pretty much every other stage he gets dominated in some way. FD is easily Bowser's worst stage in this matchup since it gives him nothing he can abuse, and it makes him a lot more predictable and easy for Mario to capitalize on (especially in terms of gimping).

 

[Inferno3044]

The guy who originally said the MU was in Mario's favor now says camping doesn't work on him.

Let's face it, mario can't camp anybody LOL

I meant to say it won't work forever. It can work to keep him at bay or to at least force and approach, but we aren't Falco or Pit who probably can camp Bowser like how I'm thinking of it. Fireballs help in general, but I learned they can't be relied on. Even just sounds right now because I have yet to face a Bowser offline.

The End

EDIT: For now

 

[Flayl]

Fireballs are good when retreating or forcing Bowser to slow down, I completely agree. They don't work as a camping tool.

Mario's biggest pluses are definitely his combo and juggling ability as well as the cape. Bowser if played right however, should be able to prevent being comboed easily, as the only aerial that can touch Bowser's shield without getting fortress'd in return is a perfectly spaced BAir, and that's if Bowser doesn't have momentum. Of course this only applies in neutral sitations, take Bowser to stages where's he's forced to jump around and Mario should have the advantage if he can get under Bowser and avoid the klaw.

Jab pretty much destroys Mario's ground game. I'm completely serious about this. Play a Bowser that can space his Jab and follow up the first jab occasionally with a tilt or klaw and you'll see what I mean.

Feel free to punish Bowser with FSmash if the Bowser sucks and is using smashes for no reason, or is spacing FTilt poorly.

Figured I should give some decent advice so you don't rely on A2ZOMG's theorycraft.

 

[Matador]

The guy who originally said the MU was in Mario's favor now says camping doesn't work on him.

Let's face it, mario can't camp anybody LOL

Please explain to me what you're eluding towards, because I know you aren't suggesting that I EVER said Mario had the advantage in this matchup due to camping.

Mario wins this through his combo game and gimp ability on Bowser. The reliable approach and spacing capacity WITH fireballs help to make comboing/gimping EASIER, but that's all fireballs do in this matchup.

If I ever said it was due to camping, I must've been on some ****.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fireballs are good when retreating or forcing Bowser to slow down, I completely agree. They don't work as a camping tool.

Technically, they work quite fine for camping if the goal is just getting the % lead. Bowser is terrible at approaching and relies heavily on shieldcamping to compensate for this.

Mario's biggest pluses are definitely his combo and juggling ability as well as the cape. Bowser if played right however, should be able to prevent being comboed easily, as the only aerial that can touch Bowser's shield without getting fortress'd in return is a perfectly spaced BAir, and that's if Bowser doesn't have momentum. Of course this only applies in neutral sitations, take Bowser to stages where's he's forced to jump around and Mario should have the advantage if he can get under Bowser and avoid the klaw.

FD also screws Bowser over, by reducing his defensive options and what few mixups he has, and basically guaranteeing gimps when he goes offstage.

Jab pretty much destroys Mario's ground game. I'm completely serious about this. Play a Bowser that can space his Jab and follow up the first jab occasionally with a tilt or klaw and you'll see what I mean.

The main problem with this argument is that the situation where this is in Bowser's favor is pretty specific. Mario basically has to be right at the edge of Bowser's Jab range (where the frame advantage of Bowser's Jab is also the smallest). At that range however, Mario can retreat with fireball if he has room to move. If Mario shields even slightly closer to Bowser, that usually gets Bowser punished out of shield when you consider Mario's extremely fast out of shield game.

I've played a good Bowser by the way before, so I know this matchup. You probably don't know of InsomniaK, but his Bowser is good.

And fundamentally, the real problem Bowser has is that his shield ultimately is unreliable once it starts getting worn out, which kinda sucks since he's pretty big on shieldcamping to compensate for his relatively laggy moveset. Bowser doesn't have too many extremely reliable ways of KOing early to compensate for Mario's gimps and more reliable KO moves either. Pretty much every one of Bowser's better KO moves is avoidable on reaction minus something like a fresh U-tilt (one more reason BF is a better stage for Bowser) or fresh Klaw (actually scratch that. Up-B out of shield takes care of that if he tries to come in from the air).

As I was saying, Bowser basically just wins on BF where it's hard to approach/gimp him.

 

[Inferno3044]

Please explain to me what you're eluding towards, because I know you aren't suggesting that I EVER said Mario had the advantage in this matchup due to camping.

Mario wins this through his combo game and gimp ability on Bowser. The reliable approach and spacing capacity WITH fireballs help to make comboing/gimping EASIER, but that's all fireballs do in this matchup.

If I ever said it was due to camping, I must've been on some ****.

I agree with you. I thought that it was 60:40 Mario because I thought you can camp him for an approach, combo him to high percents, get him offstage and gimp him. I know it's much easier said than done. I learned that you can't rely on camping, but fireballs help a lot. Either that or I suck at camping. I know I'm changing opinions because I said like earlier today it's even, but I think Mario has a slight advantage (55:45) as long as you aren't on BF which you should ban against him. It could be 60:40 Mario on RC because Bowser has to move and you can use that for your advantage. I would say take him there or to FD since he has nothing to abuse there.

I probably have repeated myself in this post and I don't want to anymore. Can we do Jigglypuff please? I feel like I will need to know this MU for low tiers which I can place better in as long as I don't have to fight extremely high level players.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Right Jigglypuff.

Honestly Jigglypuff is massively underrated. She's an inferior Kirby/Wario, but that kind of playstyle makes her good. Her only "real" downfall is dying at like 70% to random stuff. But in terms of the spacing game she can play, she's a good character with some surprisingly powerful options.

You can't get lazy on your spacing in this matchup. A good jiggs will punish mistakes you make, and she's got excellent KO moves in the right hands. a Drillrest iirc will start KOing you from like 80-90%, and her Smashes are all pretty strong too. Rollout is stupidly hard to punish, but fireball camping can help ease prediction against it.

Offstage she has you beat with her amazing recovery, and her F-air can be a pain to deal with.

All in all you'll want to keep her pressured and limit the space she can move around onstage. My guess is that it's a pretty even matchup since Mario overall is a little more reliable at scoring the KO since Jigglypuff is just a lot lighter than him, and fireball camping puts a bit of a thorn in Jiggs air game. Mario has the speed in his movepool to make it hard for Jiggs to get in, but it will still not be an easy battle if she has good spacing.

 

[jmanxiv]

Jiggly is pretty light so mario can KO her at low percentages and her smashes wont be a problem to mario. Mario can combo jiggz pretty good and rack up enough damage for Usmash.

 

[Inferno3044]

We definitely have more range so spacing with bairs would work fine. I'm not sure whose aerials have more priority but that's something to keep in mind. As for rollout, if they are on the ground when they use it, fireballs will stop it. If they are airborne, use FLUDD to push him over your head and put you in a safe place. Also if the stage has a platform, just go on it. It's not easy to really punish, but use it to put you in a safe position.

Stagewise, a low ceiling is definitely the best for us. Halberd is a very good choice and Brinstar should work too. Something with a high ceiling like Japes wouldn't be a good choice for you.

 

[Framerate]

Pound should go through most if not all of your aerials, if used correctly. You could always cape rollout, or use the disjointed f-smash for an easy punish. Missing a rest is terrible, cape cape cape u-smash D:

Fireballs aren't too much of a problem though, we can cancel them with fair, dair, and I think nair.

 

[Matt07]

Jigglypuff will never be on the ground long enough for us to hit her with a Fireball . I mean I think this is one match-up we're Fireball's probably won't be used that much. Don't rely on combo's in this match-up Jigglypuff is too light for most of them, or she can use Pound to interrupt any combo's we try. Yea like, jmanxiv said keep u-smash fresh, it'll be were you will score almost all of your K.O's from, just like the Sonic match-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Fireballs are decent in this matchup. You just have to have good aim, but interrupting Jiggs' air game with a fireball is well worth it. Using fireballs to condition your opponent I believe matters more in this matchup since Jiggs sorta prides a bit on unpredictability, so limiting that is helpful.

And by the way, Mario doesn't have trouble comboing Jigglypuff at low percents. U-tilts and U-air get the job done in this matchup like any other.

 

[hippiedude92]

why is it that in every matchup, people make fireballs look useless since it can be caneclled by anything? lol.

jiggs spacing is annoying though.

 

[Inferno3044]

why is it that in every matchup, people make fireballs look useless since it can be caneclled by anything? lol.

It's because we aren't damaging them with it often. What they don't seem to know (which was my point with Bowser) is that fireballs can get an approach from the opponent. When you use a fireball, there are options that they can do against it. The opponent can get hit, dodge, shield, or swat it away. Normally they will shield or swat it. This will force/halt an approach and can leave them in a place where you are able to do a counterattack. Fireballs are a very good projectile. It has multiple purposes and can be used in multiple ways.

I know that Jiggz will die from a Usmash at like 80% and maybe 70 on a stage witha low ceiling like Halberd or Brinstar and fsmash kills Jiggz at around 90%, but I don't know what percentage Jiggz kills Mario at. I just know that their fair i believe is one of their kill moves.

 

[Matador]

why is it that in every matchup, people make fireballs look useless since it can be caneclled by anything? lol.

jiggs spacing is annoying though.

I generally disregard it if it's not a move like Marth's Fair or Tink's Zair. If they can cancel the fireball and still approach as we're in fireball lag, then okay.

Under those circumstances, I'll consider considering an opinion that isn't my own

 

[GreyClover]

I know that Jiggz will die from a Usmash at like 80% and maybe 70 on a stage witha low ceiling like Halberd or Brinstar and fsmash kills Jiggz at around 90%, but I don't know what percentage Jiggz kills Mario at. I just know that their fair i believe is one of their kill moves.

She has like nothing to kill on the ground but a rest that KO's at 81% on FD.

Oh and just to point out Jigglypuff can rest our jab combo and Dair also.

 

[Famous]

What? Luigi counters Jiggly....

Oh wait, nvm....It's too early in the morning for me to see clearly...

 

[Inferno3044]

She has like nothing to kill on the ground but a rest that KO's at 81% on FD.

Oh and just to point out Jigglypuff can rest our jab combo and Dair also.

Rest is crap compared to how it was in melee. It's so much harder to land and it doesn't give nearly as much knockback. Still just as punishable.

Edit: Why the **** does rest hurt anybody? It heals you not magically damage the opponent and kill them.

 

[*JuriHan*]

It's because we aren't damaging them with it often. What they don't seem to know (which was my point with Bowser) is that fireballs can get an approach from the opponent. When you use a fireball, there are options that they can do against it. The opponent can get hit, dodge, shield, or swat it away. Normally they will shield or swat it. This will force/halt an approach and can leave them in a place where you are able to do a counterattack. Fireballs are a very good projectile. It has multiple purposes and can be used in multiple ways.

I know that Jiggz will die from a Usmash at like 80% and maybe 70 on a stage witha low ceiling like Halberd or Brinstar and fsmash kills Jiggz at around 90%, but I don't know what percentage Jiggz kills Mario at. I just know that their fair i believe is one of their kill moves.

Yes, f-air is suppose to be our ultimate kill move, and in all honesty, it sucks. It makes an outstanding approach and can combo into other things like grab and n-air. But we're not suppose to stale it.

So let's say we don't stale it and attempt to kill you with it. We become very predictible, we scream "shield grab me" and even worse, f-air requires a sweetspot for the kill knockback. If we **** up the sweetspot, then we just staled the move. This happens a lot, and this is why Jigglypuff is bottom tier... she has no reliable kill move.

She has like nothing to kill on the ground but a rest that KO's at 81% on FD.

Oh and just to point out Jigglypuff can rest our jab combo and Dair also.

We have f-smash, but don't worry. Sakurai nerfed this too. It has start-up frames, giving it **** priority and making it easy to avoid. But it's decent for punishing spot dodgers.

Dash attack can kill around late 130% or maybe even 140%ish centerstage on final destination. I didn't test this yet since no one seemed to care I was getting kill %s for her. It can kill less if you're by the edge but it can't be stale. This move is surprisngly fast for a ground move of hers, and has good priority. Pitty the knockback isn't anything special.

We also have rollout, but unless you are playing online, it really shouldn't hit. I'm pretty sure Mario's fire balls stop it right in her tracks.

We have DACUS, but it's situational.

And beleive it or not, u-tilt kills too at high %s. But it has nothing on Snake's u-tilt and has terrible range making it difficult to land.

tl;dr

Jigglypuff has issues killing.

 

[_clinton]

Meh...rest isn't that bad from the transfer...it has special frames at the start of it that pretty much says anyone who has any lag from a move is going to get hit by it...too bad Mario doesn't have any lag filled moves/is a nimble target

 

[A2ZOMG]

So let's say we don't stale it and attempt to kill you with it. We become very predictible, we scream "shield grab me" and even worse, f-air requires a sweetspot for the kill knockback. If we **** up the sweetspot, then we just staled the move. This happens a lot, and this is why Jigglypuff is bottom tier... she has no reliable kill move.

You guys are extremely emo are you? ROB has no reliable KO move (except for N-air offstage and U-throw at 180%) and he's high tier.

Being able to stay safe better than your opponent automatically makes you a good character. True Jigglypuff can't take much punishment...doesn't matter under a good player who knows matchups. Considering your mobility is top notch, you'll have no trouble punishing air dodges if you can learn your opponent, and that alone is enough to set up KO moves.

That being said I think this matchup is even.

 

[:mad:]

You guys are extremely emo are you? ROB has no reliable KO move (except for N-air offstage and U-throw at 180%) and he's high tier.

Being able to stay safe better than your opponent automatically makes you a good character. True Jigglypuff can't take much punishment...doesn't matter under a good player who knows matchups. Considering your mobility is top notch, you'll have no trouble punishing air dodges if you can learn your opponent, and that alone is enough to set up KO moves.

That being said I think this matchup is even.

At least ROB has weight/camping. Jigglypuff has... aerial speed and pretty slick Bair.

That being said, I agree.

 

[*JuriHan*]

You guys are extremely emo are you? ROB has no reliable KO move (except for N-air offstage and U-throw at 180%) and he's high tier.

Being able to stay safe better than your opponent automatically makes you a good character. True Jigglypuff can't take much punishment...doesn't matter under a good player who knows matchups. Considering your mobility is top notch, you'll have no trouble punishing air dodges if you can learn your opponent, and that alone is enough to set up KO moves.

That being said I think this matchup is even.

I ain't emo, I'm being honest about her. Rob isn't the lightest character in the game, he can camp, he has multiple projectiles and he has a ground game. Jigglypuff doesn't.

If Jigglypuff had a reliable kill move, I would say this matchup should be in her favor. But since she doesn't, it's going to be fairly even.

 

[Inferno3044]

I really don't see too much that Jiggly has on Mario except that she has some really good air combos which something like nair and maybe Uair can get us out of. Her ground game sucks but since she is a light puffball with multiple jumps and amazing aerial mobility, she can stay in the air for a very long time. I guess it's even or slightly Mario's advantage (55:45) because Jiggly has very little kill power and Mario has a reliable kill move to kill her at low percents.

If Jigglypuff had a reliable kill move, I would say this matchup should be in her favor. But since she doesn't, it's going to be fairly even.

Probably true. That's why she is so good in Melee.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I ain't emo, I'm being honest about her. Rob isn't the lightest character in the game, he can camp, he has multiple projectiles and he has a ground game. Jigglypuff doesn't.

Jigglypuff can also camp. Move around a lot in the air to stay out of range of attacks, and punish after they do attack. I've played a good Jigglypuff before, and I find this a surprisingly reliable strategy under the right hands.

If Jigglypuff had a reliable kill move, I would say this matchup should be in her favor. But since she doesn't, it's going to be fairly even.

Honestly, you do have a reliable KO move. F-air offstage is difficult to avoid, and in Mario's case this is particularly true since his recovery is rather onetracked. Get him offstage at high%s, wait for the Cape or aerial attack, and F-air him.

Or if you want to ease your prediction even more, N-air offstage is also a very good tool.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Honestly, you do have a reliable KO move. F-air offstage is difficult to avoid, and in Mario's case this is particularly true since his recovery is rather onetracked. Get him offstage at high%s, wait for the Cape or aerial attack, and F-air him.

Or if you want to ease your prediction even more, N-air offstage is also a very good tool.

F-air is NOT reliable. It's not like Peach's f-air. It requires a sweetspot. You can sourspot it offstage just as easy as you can sourspot it onstage. And remember, when you sourspot it, it stales.

And yea.. n-air is good for gimping.

 

[hippiedude92]

Hmm me and Kirinblaze did dubz low tier, was hella funny, we won against jiggs on halberd, and marios upsmash is extremely helpful in this matchup esp since she dies so early lol..

Good jiggs are pretty scary though.. takes me abit of a while to adapt... shes really scary in low tier dubz too..

 

[HeroMystic]

So I see a bunch of stuff about Jigglypuff not being able to kill. I think you guys are forgetting that Jigglypuff can practically go at the edge of the blast zone in FD and come back. If you can keep up the pressure on Mario off-stage, then you'd be getting some gimp kills in there.

That said, this is still in Mario's favor with a 55:45. Mario has an answer for everything Jigglypuff does, especially her spacing game with the use of FIHL, which really screws up her pound too. Mario's defensive game gives him the edge here.

Btw, fireballs are still useful here. They're even useful against G&W, which is considered when they're the -least- useful. Just because they don't rack up damage doesn't mean we can't make an opening with them.

 

[Inferno3044]

So I see a bunch of stuff about Jigglypuff not being able to kill. I think you guys are forgetting that Jigglypuff can practically go at the edge of the blast zone in FD and come back. If you can keep up the pressure on Mario off-stage, then you'd be getting some gimp kills in there.

That said, this is still in Mario's favor with a 55:45. Mario has an answer for everything Jigglypuff does, especially her spacing game with the use of FIHL, which really screws up her pound too. Mario's defensive game gives him the edge here.

Btw, fireballs are still useful here. They're even useful against G&W, which is considered when they're the -least- useful. Just because they don't rack up damage doesn't mean we can't make an opening with them.

Everything here sounds about right. What I think people meant by unable to kill I think they meant kills that aren't gimps. It doesn't seem 60:40 to me and I feel Mario has an advantage so I agree with 55:45 Mario.


Where the hell did Hero come from?

 

[Famous]

Idk, hero's only appear in times of need so...I guess that sums up his appearances

 

[jmanxiv]

55:45 sounds about right, jiggz has to gimp mario in order to get a kill, rest is not a reliable killing move.

 

[HeroMystic]

Where the hell did Hero come from?

Since I have no brawl buddies I tend to not come here as much (as I should?) Otherwise I just pop up if the thread seems interesting.

 

[*JuriHan*]

55:45 sounds about right, jiggz has to gimp mario in order to get a kill, NOTHING IS a reliable killing move.

there ya go it's all fixed now.

But yea 55:45 sounds about right.

 

[Inferno3044]

Jiggs can kill you offstage with a fair but I used a well timed cape to stop it.

Well Jiggs is now done. Someone make a randomizer to decide next discussion