The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[A2ZOMG]

Bah, it's not 50/50. Bowser has so many issues that are very stage situational, and the only stage that really benefits him significantly is BF.

His infinite grab doesn't change the matchup since you can jump break. And more importantly, Bowser in particular has a very hard time recovering against Mario's edgeguarding.

 

[Inferno3044]

We discussed Bowser not too long ago actually. We both agreed it was 50:50. However with Bowser's infinite grab(?) It could be different.

Where was I? I don't remember thinking this was even at all. Mario has a very clear advantage imo.

 

[HeroMystic]

I believe we agreed on 50:50 or 55:45 Mario. I'll check on my forgotten match-up index.

Bowser's Up-B OOS spam is very annoying btw.

EDIT: Index says we agreed on 50:50.

 

[MrEh]

It's 40-60 until you start gimping him with the cape. lol

After that, it's about neutral.

 

[:mad:]

Bowser steals Pikachu's spotlight? What's happening?

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's 40-60 until you start gimping him with the cape. lol

After that, it's about neutral.

More like 55/45 without the gimps.

Bowser has trouble landing a kill move without a grab release, and getting a grab with Bowser is both risky and not easy. Whiffing one move against Mario is a free F-smash for him, which outranges all of your moves except Firebreath.

Whatever method of camping Bowser attempts...is always pretty much denied by fireball camping.

One well-timed dodge or shield on Mario's part leads to a grab or U-tilt which starts juggles. These are difficult for Bowser to deal with especially if the stage is not BF.

And this doesn't account for the fact that Bowser has one of the most easily cape ***** recoveries in the game due to how horizontal it is.

That Klaw approach also happens to be less effective in this matchup, since that angle at which you approach is covered by an up-B out of shield.

So basically Bowser struggles to do anything safely in this matchup while Mario has a fine time getting him to approach by camping, and then Mario also happens to be one of the best characters at gimping his recovery. It's not even that hard for Mario to KO Bowser. Sure, it may take a while percentagewise, but landing that kill move isn't hard, and Mario is a bit at an advantage in racking up damage quickly.

The matchup is in Bowser's favor on a stage like BF, but on those other stages with less convenient platform layout...it's pretty clearly in Mario's favor.

 

[Matador]

Bowser's Utilt is pretty amazing. A fresh fortress kills too. He also has a few aerial killers so he can bait airdodges pretty well. His sideB also kills...lol, how does he have trouble killing without grab releases? He has too many options.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm gonna give my opinions on why Mario definitely gets an advantage on Bowser.

Fireballs beats any camping method he has
Can easily outcamp him
Bowser is a giant target
Most attacks of his are slow and/or have a lot of lag
Extremely easy to combo with utilts and uairs
Fireballs are more useful than firebreath
Bowser has no projectile
Bowser has enough lag to punish with a smash
Our Dsmash is faster than your jab (not sure how much you use this)
Fsmash outranges practically every move of his

And this is all without the cape

Bowser's advantages from what I can think of

Nice killpower
UpB OOS
Very heavy so he will survive longer (cape somewhat cancels this advantage)
Most of your moves outrange us

I'm pretty sure there's this thing Bowser has that makes him do an "infinite jump" called koopa hopping. I think what it really is is that you are on the ground for such a short time, that it looks like you are continuously jumping. Now personally, I don't think it is that amazing. A projectile is all you need. Talking about Mario's fireball, there are 3 things that could happen when we use a fireball while you are doing this:

1. Get hit
2. Air dodge
3. Shield it (PS included)
Any of these will stop Koopa Hopping

This is so clearly in Mario's advantage. This is 60:40 Mario possibly even 65:35.

 

[Bowser King]

More like 55/45 without the gimps.

Bowser has trouble landing a kill move without a grab release, and getting a grab with Bowser is both risky and not easy. Whiffing one move against Mario is a free F-smash for him, which outranges all of your moves except Firebreath.

It's not that hard to get a grab, unless the character is wario or squirtle. He also has plenty of safe kill moves.

Whatever method of camping Bowser attempts...is always pretty much denied by fireball camping.

Why would we camp? We know you have a projectile so there's no point of staying and camping.

So basically Bowser struggles to do anything safely in this matchup while Mario has a fine time getting him to approach by camping, and then Mario also happens to be one of the best characters at gimping his recovery. It's not even that hard for Mario to KO Bowser. Sure, it may take a while percentagewise, but landing that kill move isn't hard, and Mario is a bit at an advantage in racking up damage quickly.

Could you explain this better? Bowser has a lot of safe things that he can do. Fortress beats everything mario can do from the air (if it's retreated right). Bowser out ranges mario in most cases other then F-smash (not sure if fortress would be useful in that situation but I'd think it would be).

Bowser has one of the best defensive games out there, so landing a good kill move isn't as easy as your thinking. Fortress and Shield (bowser has the best shield/OoS in the game) make his defensive game good and GR help out if the character messes up bad.

The matchup is in Bowser's favor on a stage like BF, but on those other stages with less convenient platform layout...it's pretty clearly in Mario's favor.

I'd think it would be even on most stages and the advantage for bowser on BF but if you guys feel its an advantage for mario that's fine

It's really even because cape is so good in this matchup and other factors.

EDIT:

@above post...

Ummm....bowsers moves aren't very laggy. Unless your playing a smash happy player bowsers moves have good speed (faster then a lot of snakes moves) AND they outrange almost all of mario's moves.

We very likely won't klawhop, when we can just powershield fireballs or us fortress to cancel them =/

-Bowser King

 

[Veggi]

Alright, who stepped on the Bowser space?

 

[Inferno3044]

It's not that hard to get a grab, unless the character is wario or squirtle. He also has plenty of safe kill moves.

Landing a grab is not an instant death. We can get out eventually.

Why would we camp? We know you have a projectile so there's no point of staying and camping.

Clear advantage for us right there. We can camp you very easily.

Could you explain this better? Bowser has a lot of safe things that he can do. Fortress beats everything mario can do from the air (if it's retreated right). Bowser out ranges mario in most cases other then F-smash (not sure if fortress would be useful in that situation but I'd think it would be).

Practically every move you have has an ending lag. During that time, we can punish you very easily and get you into a combo.

Bowser has one of the best defensive games out there, so landing a good kill move isn't as easy as your thinking. Fortress and Shield (bowser has the best shield/OoS in the game) make his defensive game good and GR help out if the character messes up bad.

OK. You guys have a great defensive game. We are making you take the offense making you use your offensive game instead of your defensive game. If we get you to stay on a complete offense, then we don't have to worry about it so much. Fireballs help that.

I'd think it would be even on most stages and the advantage for bowser on BF but if you guys feel its an advantage for mario that's fine

I read about how you guys are so good on BF, and I understand that Bowser can abuse platforms very well, but others can definitely abuse platforms. I looked at a post of yours showing how good he can abuse platforms, but it doesn't show anything about how he is good on a platform. We can get you on a platform and abuse it.

I do respect your opinions on the MU, but nothing has been said to really change my opinion.

It's really even because cape is so good in this matchup and other factors.

Its our advantage because of the cape. Without it, it would be even.

Ummm....bowsers moves aren't very laggy. Unless your playing a smash happy player bowsers moves have good speed (faster then a lot of snakes moves) AND they outrange almost all of mario's moves.

I said our Fsmash outranges everything. Other than that, you guys have range. You definitely have enough lag for us to punish with a lot.

We very likely won't klawhop, when we can just powershield fireballs or us fortress to cancel them =/

Still, it forces an approach and that's what we want. Also, I pointed out that you can PS it.

Alright, who stepped on the Bowser space?

Me. Is that a problem?

 

[Matt07]

Bowser steals Pikachu's spotlight? What's happening?

Well at least the Bowser boards can show up for a discussion when we ask them too. At least we can get a good discussion going now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not that hard to get a grab, unless the character is wario or squirtle. He also has plenty of safe kill moves.

Plenty of safe kill moves? Not really. Only the Klaw is super safe, and that's also his best damage dealer. Up-air is pretty safe, but requires a fair bit of mindgames to actually land. And then there is the other problem that Mario can outrange anything not named Firebreath with a F-smash which generally has more than enough knockback to get you offstage.

Why would we camp? We know you have a projectile so there's no point of staying and camping.

Exactly, and this is less time you get to shieldcamp. Bowser thrives on shieldcamping, and when you're on the offensive, there is much less available time to shield and put Bowser's best assets to use.

Could you explain this better? Bowser has a lot of safe things that he can do. Fortress beats everything mario can do from the air (if it's retreated right). Bowser out ranges mario in most cases other then F-smash (not sure if fortress would be useful in that situation but I'd think it would be).

Fortress isn't exactly what I call safe when 90% of the time Mario is just going to be sitting back camping on Bowser's shield. And then there is the problem when Mario can also pull off spacing tricks with the Cape to reduce the effectiveness of Bowser's out of shield game.

And then also...Bowser's shield doesn't last that long. So if you're spending a lot of time trying to get close with that shield, it will eventually get poked by fireballs.

Ummm....bowsers moves aren't very laggy. Unless your playing a smash happy player bowsers moves have good speed (faster then a lot of snakes moves) AND they outrange almost all of mario's moves.

*yawn* Unless you're telling me you have G&W's Up-smash somewhere on your moveset, then I frankly don't care. Most moves in this game have around 20 frames of ending lag (minus obvious exceptions like G&W's smashes which have like around 5-10 frames of ending lag), meaning literally there is almost always an opening for Mario to punish with an F-smash if he has good timing and spacing.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, Pikachu boards ignored us for Wario. Ah well, Bowser boards are still cool. Bowser now, Pika last.

 

[hippiedude92]

Boozer got nothing Mario..

I mean in Mario games... Mario always had 55:45 advantage lawl. Unless your not Fire Mario xD.

OOS upb fortress hurts alot more >_>

 

[:mad:]

Mario has an 80:20 in Mario games because Bowser always camped, you were forced to approach. Just use your mobility to get the axe he doesn't bother using and it's an instant 0-Death combo.

 

[Veggi]

Yeah, but we have to turn items off, or is it like ZSS' suit pieces, I can't decide.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Didn't want to make a new thread, so thought I'd post it here.

We're about to start re-discussing Mario as our next match-up. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473

We could use your help.

 

[Inferno3044]

With nothing else being said, I say 60:40 Mario. Are we ready to move on?

 

[Its Wispy]

I don't remember much of the fight, but I fought Matador a couple of weeks ago with my Bowser. He did beat me pretty good, but it seems the match up was fairly even from our games. I could kill him with Klaw, Dtilt, fortress, and FAir, but he could also kill me using his top notch mind games. He did gimp me with the cape a few times, but because of Bowser's invincibility frames, there's a certain safe distance I could recover off stage from. I would say the match up is 50-50 or 55-45 in Mario's favor.

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't remember much of the fight, but I fought Matador a couple of weeks ago with my Bowser. He did beat me pretty good, but it seems the match up was fairly even from our games. I could kill him with Klaw, Dtilt, fortress, and FAir, but he could also kill me using his top notch mind games. He did gimp me with the cape a few times, but because of Bowser's invincibility frames, there's a certain safe distance I could recover off stage from. I would say the match up is 50-50 or 55-45 in Mario's favor.

Invincibility frames won't stop the cape because it has transcended priority. In case anybody doesn't know what that is, it means it will always go through and you can't clash with it. It's also why we can cape Marth's and Mario's recovery which also have invincibility frames and is much faster. I'm 100% sure that Bowser doesn't have invincibility frames for the whole time and like DK's recovery, you have to recover horizonally because it has bad vertical height making it predictable. What distance are you talking about anyways?

 

[Veggi]

If you cape someone on a fresh stock before their invincibility runs out, they don't turn around so I'd imagine it would be the same for other forms of invincibility.

 

[Matt07]

It's true. You cannot Cape anyone during their invincibility frames. That includes Mario's up B, Marth's up B, Bowser's, etc.

 

[HeroMystic]

We cannot cape anyone with invincibility frames. The reasons why it doesn't matter much is because invincibility frames don't last long at all.

 

[Matador]

I don't remember much of the fight, but I fought Matador a couple of weeks ago with my Bowser. He did beat me pretty good, but it seems the match up was fairly even from our games. I could kill him with Klaw, Dtilt, fortress, and FAir, but he could also kill me using his top notch mind games. He did gimp me with the cape a few times, but because of Bowser's invincibility frames, there's a certain safe distance I could recover off stage from. I would say the match up is 50-50 or 55-45 in Mario's favor.

It's pretty even, I agree. The only reason I was winning was you tried to shield grab too much T_T.

Mario has a great deal of ways to punish predicted shieldgrabs, so it gave me an edge. Had we played more than 4 or 5 games, you would've caught on to me, and the gap would've closed.

If you're close enough to the stage, the invincibility keeps you safe. If not, you're an easy cape target.

 

[jmanxiv]

I would go as far as 60-40 on boozer, most of his move are really punishable his range is marios only problem

 

[HeroMystic]

So far the numbers I'm seeing are 60:40 Mario or Neutral. Split down the middle and go with 55:45 Mario?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I played a really good Bowser once. If the Bowser is smart he'll destroy you. Klaws and Fairs and such

Neutral.

off topic: I just caped a Sheik and she slid across Smashville. wtf?

 

[SkylerOcon]

That's happened to me too. It has to do with how the cape's physics work.

Also, Bowser is neutral. Like nearly all of Mario's match-ups. Suprise!

 

[fromundaman]

I played a really good Bowser once. If the Bowser is smart he'll destroy you. Klaws and Fairs and such

Neutral.

off topic: I just caped a Sheik and she slid across Smashville. wtf?

What was the Sheik doing? Boost Dmash?

 

[vato_break]

cape-****?

 

[Matador]

Also, Bowser is neutral. Like nearly all of Mario's match-ups. Suprise!

Things are bound to end up like that when it comes to theory. We can't narrow it down specifically enough to get completely accurate ratios.

Instead we generalize each matchup. That's....kinda why I think these are pointless. We should just say what to look out for, what you can and can't do against Bowser, and move on.

 

[fromundaman]

Meh, adding numbers doesn't hurt, but matchup discussions in general focus too much on that. I generally prefer knowing what to do/look out for.

 

[:mad:]

If nobody really has experience, they'll say even because that's the best possible guess.

From my little experience against Bowser, I'd actually say slight advantage for either side. More so on his end.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But I've actually played this matchup. D=

Good Bowsers will generally try to keep you outside with well-timed Jabs and tilts and Klaws and Up-B out of shield. Aerials are rarely ever used except in some situations for punishing air dodges and edgeguarding. If you're forced to go on the offensive, then this matchup swings in his favor yes.

The matchup is pretty simple however since you're trying to get Bowser to approach, and his shield is not so good since it will get poked easily especially if you're fireball camping a lot.

If Bowser is coming from the air, the way he approaches happens to always be in range of your Up-B. Keep that in mind, since this is invaluable for punishing him before he liek klaws you or whatever.

Keep that F-smash ready to punish ANYTHING he whiffs. Not only does it do 18%, it will get him offstage 95% of the time if he already has some damage on him. And Bowser going offstage is of course an opportunity to cape him. If you Cape him, even if he has his midair jump and his Up-B after that, it's very difficult for him to get back. Having a fully charged FLUDD makes this already fairly easy task even easier, not to mention Fireball spamming.

Don't get surprised by his Down-B. Just keep in mind you can always air dodge the ground version.

The main headache in this matchup is in close range where you're trying to bait him out of his shield or poke him once it is worn down, but when it comes to maintaining momentum, Mario more advantaged here as far as I'm concerned.

The rest of this matchup is pretty obvious, when it comes to maintaining momentum, comboing, and stuff, and is something that should come naturally to most Mario mains.

 

[hippiedude92]

It's only natural to Mario mains because we **** him in any kind of Mario game since Boozer is always the villian ;D

It's annoying matchup considering both characters can break each other's momentum pretty well.. but still a fun one..

 

[Fire!]

I pretty sure Bowser has a grab release to down tilt. No one's brought that up yet.

 

[Matador]

I pretty sure Bowser has a grab release to down tilt. No one's brought that up yet.

Because grab release into Klaw is way worse.

I don't think he has it into Dtilt though. Ftilt I'm sure, and maybe even downB.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah, he does have grab release into Dtilt, and I'd think that would be worse than into Klaw due to it's horizontal knockback which makes recovering very tough or sometimes outright impossible, depending on our damage.

You might be able to extra inch DI out of Dtilt range though.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, he does have grab release into Dtilt, and I'd think that would be worse than into Klaw due to it's horizontal knockback which makes recovering very tough or sometimes outright impossible, depending on our damage.

You might be able to extra inch DI out of Dtilt range though.

Actually, you're right. Dtilt does just about as much damage too. Klaw only really concerns me because it kills. The damage is pretty devastating too.

At least Bowser can't pressure all that well offstage if it comes to that.