The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I almost forgot that Charizard has the better juggle game. No, wait.
That's Mario.

Charizard's Nair is a bad GTFO move.
Mario's Nair is a good GTFO move.

Mario can cape the Rock Smash faster than Charizard can use it.

I never did say that Charizard has a better juggle game, just that he has one.

Its not that bad.

DARN IT, THE CAPE IS TOO GOOD !

 

[hippiedude92]

I'll agree with Flamethrower, ill give u that. Though it's not a "reliable" tool as not to be abused always. Zard can't completely juggle Mario. Mario can just bait with cape stalling.

Zard gets wrecked by approaching espically with Marios superior defensive tools. Fludd to lag any SH approach, OOS upb if you come close. And his other moves which I am lazy to throw out. The only thing hes good for, is for his good grab game, and his kill power and ability to live long if we dont gimp him.

 

[Matador]

Thank you Matador for the info. Any opinion on the matchups for each and overall?

Not really sure on the ratio. It's hard to put one on PT because I've always fought PT players that excelled with one pokemon and sucked with the other two. I've been destroyed by good Charizard players who place rocksmash well and knew how to abuse his grabs and KO power.

I've been brickwalled by some really good Ivy players who knew how to cover themselves.

I've been ***** by ridiculous Squirtle players that knew how to use his speed and priority in the air to keep me grounded where Mario's isn't particularly good.

Once their next pokemon comes up, they can't space or can't approach without being annihilated for failing at it. My point is that I can see this matchup being a disadvantage if they really know how to play it. Ivy and Squirtle definitely have the tools to make this bad if they manage to stay alive long enough.

Don't take my word for it though.

Where are my Brethren?

I guarantee it'd be less of us and more of your guys if this was your thread on your board.

I'll play devil's advocate in their place.

 

[Veggi]

Sorry to go back to ZSS, but I was playing against a ZSS player and she managed to down b out of my double uair every time I did it. Can she really do that or was I just not doing it correctly?

 

[Matador]

Her downB has very fast start-up and invincibility frames in the beginning IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised if it's possible for most of our combos.

Just be aware that it's an option for her, it still leaves her vulnerable near the end with predictable trajectory. This dampens, but doesn't kill our combo game on her.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Veggi, just don't do another uair, wait for the down b and punish it. :D

 

[Veggi]

Alright, I guess I was just stubborn and I wanted to see if if it would happen the next 20 times I tried. The down b is a tad hard to follow, but I'll do that since it seems like the best option.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, it's fast, but it's also dedicated. Once you know where she's going, just follow and be ready for the kick. It's VERY risky for them to try it here because of the heavy lag it gives them if they whiff the attack, but still look out for it incase they get gutsy.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Alright, some last minute mentions or warnings.

Do not let Squirtle grab you at low %'s. In a way like Mario, he can Uthrow and try to read you. If he does, then get ready to eat 100 Uairs or try to Sdi. Also, Squirtle can actually be able to harass people off the stage really well.

Charizard has one nasty Dtilt. You need to see it to know what I am talking about. Tipper dtilt is just...


Alright, now the ratios.

Squirtle 50:50 Even
Ivysaur 4:6 Disadvantage
Charizard 50:50 even.

Squirtle and Ivysaur I am now certain of their ratios. Charizard may result in a slight advantage for either.
Any Problems ?

 

[Inferno3044]

Alright, some last minute mentions or warnings.

Do not let Squirtle grab you at low %'s. In a way like Mario, he can Uthrow and try to read you. If he does, then get ready to eat 100 Uairs or try to Sdi. Also, Squirtle can actually be able to harass people off the stage really well.

Mario does not use Uthrow at all. It's his worst throw. Also Squirtle can't harass that amazing because his recovery sucks

Charizard has one nasty Dtilt. You need to see it to know what I am talking about. Tipper dtilt is just...

Nothing to argue with there.

Alright, now the ratios.

Squirtle 50:50 Even
Ivysaur 4:6 Disadvantage
Charizard 50:50 even.

Squirtle and Ivysaur I am now certain of their ratios. Charizard may result in a slight advantage for either.
Any Problems ?

Ivy seems reasonable, but I think Squirtle is 55:45 Mario mainly because of his lightweight and being very easy to gimp and maybe the same for Charizard because he's really easy to juggle, not hard at all to gimp, and can't kill at that ridiculously low percentages like other stronger characters like Dedede or DK as far as I know. Overall either 55:45 arguable for 60:40 or 60:40 arguable for 55:45 both in Mario's favor.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Mario does not use Uthrow at all. It's his worst throw. Also Squirtle can't harass that amazing because his recovery sucks



Nothing to argue with there.




Ivy seems reasonable, but I think Squirtle is 55:45 Mario mainly because of his lightweight and being very easy to gimp and maybe the same for Charizard because he's really easy to juggle, not hard at all to gimp, and can't kill at that ridiculously low percentages like other stronger characters like Dedede or DK as far as I know. Overall either 55:45 arguable for 60:40 or 60:40 arguable for 55:45 both in Mario's favor.

Sorry, meant Mario's Dthrow. It does pop them up to uair at low % right? Also, Squirtle can harass them well, just as long as he does not take uneeded risks, like when your oppenent is recovering mid somewhat.


Squirtle IDK, you need to ask other PT mains on their opioion. I may be missing something. Although the thing about Charizard not killing at low Percents, what do you mean? He has some good KO and Gimping options?

 

[Matador]

Alright, now the ratios.

Squirtle 50:50 Even
Ivysaur 4:6 Disadvantage
Charizard 50:50 even.

Squirtle and Ivysaur I am now certain of their ratios. Charizard may result in a slight advantage for either.
Any Problems ?

Do what you will for the ratios. I couldn't care less as long as we know the flow of the battle.

 

[Inferno3044]

Sorry, meant Mario's Dthrow. It does pop them up to uair at low % right? Also, Squirtle can harass them well, just as long as he does not take uneeded risks, like when your oppenent is recovering mid somewhat.


Squirtle IDK, you need to ask other PT mains on their opioion. I may be missing something. Although the thing about Charizard not killing at low Percents, what do you mean? He has some good KO and Gimping options?

What I meant about Charizard not killing at lower percents is that for a character thats supposed to be a powerhouse, he doesn't have something that amazing like DK whose Fsmash kills at like 80% or a D3 fsmash which can kill at like 50%. Maybe rock smash will kill, but it'll probably get stale, predictable, and we can cape it. I might be wrong, but I think that he isn't that strong compared to other heavyweight powerhouses.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Meh, His Fsmash is one of those powerful KO moves. You would not catch a good Charizard dead in its tracks of using it though. It is fast and has alot of range (Turn around Fsmash seems to have more range), but it has much ending lag (so do DDD's and DK's). Its "tipper can KO at low percents. Its like his Fair where DI'ing does not help, making you go horizontal ( I think).

Also, I never do see A DDD koing someone with Fsmash at high levels of play. They just usually gimp with Bair Based on what I have seen.

Its great for a surprise at least.

 

[hippiedude92]

But is it a reliable tool in the matchup is what matters? Mario's Fsmash is a reliable tool for this matchup. Pretty sure it even outranges Zard's Fsmash as well. But I think Zard takes less damage from fire based attacks if it applies, so does a sweetspot fsmash apply? >_>.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Nah, Charizard is not resistant to fire I believe. I never did say that Fsmash is a RELIABLE tool, just that its one of those hard killing moves that Inferno posted. Its great for surprises, as the range is quite deceptive. Although, Mario can punish it with his Fsmash easily. All in all, it has its uses, but should not be used sprangily.

Really, I play Charizard most of the time, and he almost never dies a horizontal death. He usually dies from a vertical death or the occasional gimp.

Well, let me know if you guys need anything else, or have questions. I need to have other PT mains have a shot, if they get here <_<.

 

[hippiedude92]

never said that you said it was a reliable tool.

just sayin if it made sense

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

never said that you said it was a reliable tool.

just sayin if it made sense

Then I misread your post. Sorry about that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bah, discussion is all done.

Meh, His Fsmash is one of those powerful KO moves. You would not catch a good Charizard dead in its tracks of using it though. It is fast and has alot of range (Turn around Fsmash seems to have more range), but it has much ending lag (so do DDD's and DK's). Its "tipper can KO at low percents. Its like his Fair where DI'ing does not help, making you go horizontal ( I think).

Also, I never do see A DDD koing someone with Fsmash at high levels of play. They just usually gimp with Bair Based on what I have seen.

Just saying, DDD's F-smash has pretty low ending lag actually...Once it gets out, it's pretty safe. You'll occasionally kill people with it if they are constantly hovering out of grab range, and you're more likely to screw them up completely if you throw out a Waddle Dee first (space F-smash so you get a tipper F-smash on the Waddle Dee to increase the hitbox duration).

 

[Inferno3044]

Agreed A2

Overall results:
vs squirtle 55:45 Mario
vs ivysaur 60:40 Mario
vs charizard 55:45 Mario or 50:50
Overall 60:40 Mario arguable for 55:45
As Matador said, you can be better with one of them and beat us but most PT's can't use all the pokemon evenly. If one of the pokemon is relatively weak, then that could be an easy stock for the opponent.

Moving along with who to talk about next. The only high tier characters left are Pikachu and Kirby, so maybe somebody might wanna talk about them. As of now, I don't have a preference of who to talk about like I have earlier, so I'm fine with anybody to talk about.

 

[:mad:]

I'd say Squirtle is 50:50.
vs. Ivy 55:45 Mario.
vs. Charizard 55:45 Charizard.

But I'll agree with 55:45.

 

[Matt07]

I agree with ratio's...they sound good to me.

So we're moving on to a new character?

 

[Inferno3044]

I'd say Squirtle is 50:50.
vs. Ivy 55:45 Mario.
vs. Charizard 55:45 Charizard.

But I'll agree with 55:45.

i agree that squirtle can probably be 50:50 and vs. zard, but ivy i see 60:40. Chances are we are gonna disagree sometimes and I respect your decision. I think we can all at least agree that in order from easiest to hardest is ivy, squirtle, zard.

Matt we are moving on. Any character you would wanna talk about?

 

[Matt07]

Nah I don't care about the next character, anyone other then Dedede, or ROB .

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Nobody in particular I REALLY want to know about, most of the threats I'll face are covered in here so far (minus pika, or as I like to call him Anther)

 

[Inferno3044]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Nobody in particular I REALLY want to know about, most of the threats I'll face are covered in here so far (minus pika, or as I like to call him Anther)

Let's do pikachu next then. i don't blame you for losing to anther. he's really good.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Nah I haven't played Anther yet.

But Idk, I'm also thinking Ike. For Renegade reasons. Plus, I really fail at that matchup. :D

 

[Inferno3044]

well let's do pika, kirby, or anybody else someone wants to do. I'd prefer pikachu because more might be showing due to his recently found CG's on top tier characters.

 

[:mad:]

I think we should go ahead and start Kirby. I talked to thrilla, who was pretty curious about the matchup.

 

[Matador]

Kirby's fine. I think even or maybe slightly Kirby's adv.

It'd be better if we did it on their boards though. Barely anyone showed up last time.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Kay, Kirby.

I've played a Kirby offline once... but I was nothin but scrub and it was at my first tourney where I never payed attention to what my opponent did.

So yeah, not much input here. I don't count online too much, I mess up TOO MUCH in any amount of lag.

EDIT: Oh wait, I did play Fromundaman, so I'm guessing it's around even. Probably a bit in Kirby's favor.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well I will put some input in this because i like kirby and know a bit about him

First, to say some things in our favor. Kirby is VERY lightweight, one of the lightest in the game. He will die at low percents from a smash attack. I think fireballs will work pretty effective, but im not sure what kirby has to stop it. This might be a surprise to us, but im pretty sure we actually outrange kirby. This means it shouldn't be as hard to get inside compared to most other members of the cast. Spacing is still helpful as always, so use bairs to do so. His attacks are affected by FIHL, which can lead into hitting them with an attack (my personal favorite of FIHL to Fsmash). Our aerial is good and able to keep up with kirby.

Now for Kirby's advantages. He can steal our fireball power. I read this on the Kirby boards, but when kirby absorbs a power, its better in some way for some odd unknown reason. His fireballs are faster than ours and it can make it so that he can camp. His aerial game is definitely a problem for us because it is at least on our level. He has amazing priority and he can kill, making it not that easy to kill them. Kirby is NEAR ungimpable. Unless you are boss, chances are you will not be gimping him, assuming he is going to sweet spot the edge. If they fail to do that, use FLUDD and make them fall in the hole similar to how you would against ike.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. To me right now it sounds pretty even, but i'm going to go invite them to see what they can add

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Kirby is easy to gimp, grab the ledge and cape.

 

[Veggi]

How much priority does Kirby's dair have? I've gotten my up b dair'd by him too many times. I know it has invincibilty at the start, but I heard up b is supposed to have good priority through the entire move. It seems to beat most other attacks, but I can't get it to go through his dair.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I think the MU is pretty close to even, I'll post my reasoning why in depth either tonight or tomorrow. For now though, Kirby has better KO options, and can gimp you if we don't outright kill you (you need to be pretty far out to be gimped easily, though). Kirby has more stall options off-stage (multiple jumps and Hammer), and shouldn't be getting gimped, even by cape or FLUDD.

On the flip side, Kirby's small, light and floaty so Mario has an easier time outright KOing, but a harder time comboing and racking up damage. Fireballs can also be an issue if Mario uses them to force an approach (something Kirby doesn't exactly excel at doing), just make sure not to let Kirby get them via copy power. Kirby fires them at a faster rate and can air-camp with them.

 

[Matador]

On the flip side, Kirby's small, light and floaty so Mario has an easier time outright KOing, but a harder time comboing and racking up damage.

Not necessarily. It only gets hard when the opponents Nair is a combo breaker like Ivy's or Yoshi's. Unless Kirby's Nair is capable of that (or something else), comboing him shouldn't be particularly difficult.

He's no Fox or ROB who're ripe for teh ****, but racking up damage should still be pretty much like everyone else. I know it's always been that way for me.

 

[fromundaman]

Meh, this matchup is pretty close to even, though kind of strange.
Both characters can kill each other well, both excel at comboing each other, and each has an easy time gimping each other (Kirby isn't that hard for Mario to gimp. If we have to use our UpB, we should be dead (if we try to sweetspot, we get edgehogged, and otherwise we get caped/FLUDDed. We can gimp you pretty easily too though.).

You guys have the upper hand on approaching, survival and projectiles, but we combo slightly better (due to us having a lighter weight), and generally outrange you (everything on the ground minus smashes, especially Fsmash, and I think Bair beats your aerials if well spaced.). Also, our 'Get off me' move, Nair, is pretty bad, whereas you guys have UpB and Nair.
We both have good ledge game and offstage game as well.

Finally, due to our lack of air speed and distance covered per jump, I have found, on both sides of this matchup, that Kirby is one of the easier characters to land a Fair spike on, especially if he doesn't see it coming.

If anyone wants to play this matchup, I have internet and can give anyone a bit of matchup experience via wifail.

Not necessarily. It only gets hard when the opponents Nair is a combo breaker like Ivy's or Yoshi's. Unless Kirby's Nair is capable of that (or something else), comboing him shouldn't be particularly difficult.

He's no Fox or ROB who're ripe for teh ****, but racking up damage should still be pretty much like everyone else. I know it's always been that way for me.

Meh, it's not much harder, but slightly. Generally speaking, Kirby combos Mario better than Mario combos Kirby, but not by much. Both characters are combo whores.

Our Nair can be a combo breaker, but it takes 10 frames to come out if I remember correctly, so it's a biot on the slow side.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Finally, due to our lack of air speed and distance covered per jump, I have found, on both sides of this matchup, that Kirby is one of the easier characters to land a Fair spike on, especially if he doesn't see it coming.

Lol I remember that.

 

[Matador]

In reference to gimping, Mario should really try and use his invincibility frames on the upB rather than the priority on the rest of the attack to get to the stage. Same as when you're fighting D3, MK, or Oli who have attacks that beat our upB.

This should prevent low % kills near the stage. In the brief few matches that I played M2K in teams, he destroyed me offstage. I found that it was much easier to get onstage if you take advantage of the invincible startup to go through MK's Dair. Same should work vs Kirby

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Man I always do that if my opponent is near me. Those invincibility frames are too good.