The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[:mad:]

Lol @ Xero. Luigi has the best Nair in the game, Mario's is the total opposite. Mario with Luigi's Nair... that'd be absolute sex.

50:50 sounds more than generous. Mario might have 2 or 3 advantages, but not against ZSS. My Mario gets 2-stocked by a really good Zero Suit I play, but my Ness turns around and 2-stocks her every time. Either I'm getting worse, or Ness just has it better. Being able to kill a ZSS at 30% is great.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I don't care HAO good Luigi's Nair is, we can squirt waterz and use our cape of sexyness!

I played a decent ZSS at C4 Galore (but since I didn't know how ZSS played then, I thought he was absolute nub cuz he kept using side-b, sorry dude) But yeah, I wasn't having problems when I was actually trying to avoid the side-b, but I guess that's just me.

 

[Inferno3044]

ZSS is beastly in the air, which is something not mentioned here so I want to say that. We actually are close to being a totally aerial character. We've got a few nice ground moves like side-b, jabs, and our badass tilts (ftilt outprioritizes, like, everything, not sure about usmash, I need to test that) but our fsmash is garbage and we love it when our target is above us. Every single aerial (save for nair) we have is high priority and can finish. Every single one (again, except nair) is also very powerful and deals a lot of damage (and can finish)! Side-b is a spacing tool, but so is bair. Usually, one of them will be decayed when kill time comes around because we'll use one or the other (and sometimes both) for spacing.

She does have a good aerial game, but its not something that will screw Mario over like G&W. Im pretty sure we are able to take ZSS on. You do have some range on us, but as Mario, it shouldn't be too big a problem. As i said earlier, if you can predict a side-B or have enough time to react, pull out FLUDD and its gone. Your ftilt is pretty nice.

Mario also likes to gimp recoveries with Cape and Fludd, something that is probably not impossible vs. a good ZSS, but is very hard. We may not have the strongest recovery, but it is very versatile and we can come back from nearly anywhere on the field. You probably won't gimp ZSS unless she makes a mistake.

Definitely true that Mario's like to gimp. We are the best at gimping except for MK. I know most people say "You won't gimp a good *insert character name here*" but chances are you will get gimped once or more a set. Compared to other characters, ZSS is not hard to gimp. There are definitely harder characters to gimp that we end up gimping.

With that said, Mario can probably do a pretty good job forcing our aproaches on the ground. Side-b is pretty laggy to start up and end so we won't be able to use that when grounded (is usually SH reverse aerialed anyway). Like in the Luigi match, Fireballs are very annoying and can force us to close in. Once we're in, Mario's nair is a good way to stop us from getting too much combo momentum.

Nothing I disagree with but I'm gonna just put it out that Mario's fireballs go at a downwards angle and more helpful IMO.

On that note, Mario and ZSS can combo each other about as well, so this match is very fun and IMO is all about momentum. In the Luigi fight, we have a lot of trouble because Luigi's air game is similar to our own but is faster. With the Mario match, your aerials don't have quite the speed ours do, and many sticky situations can be escaped with a well-timed down-b. In addition, our uair has a disjointed hitbox, which can be bad for you guys if you end up above us.

Our aerials are as fast with the exception of fair and we are not gonna use it unless trying to spike and dair which lasts much longer and is really good for shield pressuring. Luigi's are stronger, but not faster.

I don't like offering ratios because people usually disagree with it, but I want to say 55:45 Mario or 50:50, somewhere in there. It's very close.

I'm good with 55:45 Mario arguable for 50:50

 

[Mario_ 101]

Not sure about this matchup, I always figured 60:40 ZSS.

She's a master at keep-away and punishing for it. The entire time, you really have to chase her while watching out for all of her attacks that reach half across the stage. Once you get inside, it's pretty straight forward. She's a fastfaller, lightweight and doesn't have a Dair to break combos. The problem is that she racks up damage ridiculously fast and plays really safe. Getting inside is most of the battle.

I've fought a few good ZSS players and the matchup is never easy. I'm not sure if we can camp well here, I've never tried it.

pretty much what matador said lol. and fireball camping works on zamus if you keep your distance and don't get hit by the stun shots >_>

 

[ThreeSided]

So far, I agree with the mechanics stated. But as far as the whole match up goes, I think something's been overlooked. It may usually only last one stock (of whomever), but it makes a difference.

The suit pieces.

Now obviously the cape limits what Zamus can do with them, but against a Mario, I like to NOT throw them directly, and use them more for stage control and zoning. You can put Mario in a really bad position, and they're also really good to just chuck if Mario approaches with an aerial.

Mixture of pieces and side-b make things really difficult to deal with. A Zamus playing properly will keep good care at protecting her pieces, and zoning with an up/down glide toss can do wonders.

Everyone always forgets the suit pieces...

 

[vato_break]

i tend not to approach zss in the beginning i just wait to see what see does with the peices they can either make or break the 1st stock..

 

[Matador]

Lol @ Xero. Luigi has the best Nair in the game, Mario's is the total opposite. Mario with Luigi's Nair... that'd be absolute sex.

I prefer our Nair. Better offstage and for approaching. His is better of course, but Mario's has alot of good qualities that Luigi's doesn't.

Edit: please. This matchup is NOT in our favor. 55:45 ZSS at LEAST.

 

[:mad:]

Eh, same here. Although having Nair as a kill move and Bair and Uair for racking up damage, that'd at least make me happy.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, I DO wish the initial hit of Nair had more knockback. Mario could desperately use an aerial killer. I've been testing keeping my Bair fresh for kills lately...

...even fresh it's rather pathetic for KOs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I DO wish the initial hit of Nair had more knockback. Mario could desperately use an aerial killer. I've been testing keeping my Bair fresh for kills lately...

...even fresh it's rather pathetic for KOs.

Up-air and N-air are better aerial kill moves than B-air.

I think they send people at a better angle...I've gotten quite a few KOs but U-air edgeguarding and it's awesome. I go offstage, and jump into them with an Up-air when they aren't expecting it. Usually my B-air gets DIed a lot.

And yeah, I really wish that Mario was just SLIGHTLY more powerful. I don't think it would have broken the game if his N-air did 14% and had Melee knockback. Wtf at the developers at weakening it. It just isn't right. <_<

 

[Matador]

I'm more pissed about the nerfed Bthrow, but w/e. He buffed our recovery, Fsmash, and cape better than I could've imagined. Nair's a little less effective, but still a **** aerial imo.

 

[ThreeSided]

So far, I agree with the mechanics stated. But as far as the whole match up goes, I think something's been overlooked. It may usually only last one stock (of whomever), but it makes a difference.

The suit pieces.

Now obviously the cape limits what Zamus can do with them, but against a Mario, I like to NOT throw them directly, and use them more for stage control and zoning. You can put Mario in a really bad position, and they're also really good to just chuck if Mario approaches with an aerial.

Mixture of pieces and side-b make things really difficult to deal with. A Zamus playing properly will keep good care at protecting her pieces, and zoning with an up/down glide toss can do wonders.

Everyone always forgets the suit pieces...

(inserttensymbolshere)

 

[:mad:]

Keep in mind we're fairly slow with... staying active day to day. I just handle pieces by dropping them straight down. They'll linger for a bit by bouncing a create a wall. If not, I'll just chuck them. If they hit, reward for me. If the Zamus shields, nobody wins. If it goes off the edge, the Zero Suit is affected more.

Nothing too bad.

 

[Famous]

Lol, you can stop thrown pieces with anything...including jab...Dealing with the pieces isn't that hard...Also, caping pieces back at ZSS amplifies the damage and knockback...

 

[Matt07]

Usually I drop z drop and let them bounce too. However it the Zero Suit Samus is really good at using her armour pieces I'll try and get them off right away, or use my Cape more often.

 

[Matador]

Remember you can still fireball while holding a piece. Use it to mindgame or get close where you can really do damage with them.

 

[Inferno3044]

It sounds like the suit pieces can benefit Mario as much, if not better, as it would help ZSS. I think its either 60-40 debatable for 55-45 or 55-45 debatable for 50-50. I think we got this discussed pretty well. Anybody have another character they would wanna talk about?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

It's not 60-40

It's 55-45 IMO

 

[HeroMystic]

Not many ZSS mains came to state their opinion.

 

[Inferno3044]

Not many ZSS mains came to state their opinion.

i think we have enough info though.

Xero: I don't know what I was thinking

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, I guess from what we were told, we might as well just say 55:45, arguable for 50:50.

 

[hippiedude92]

Keep in mind we're fairly slow with... staying active day to day. I just handle pieces by dropping them straight down. They'll linger for a bit by bouncing a create a wall. If not, I'll just chuck them. If they hit, reward for me. If the Zamus shields, nobody wins. If it goes off the edge, the Zero Suit is affected more.

Nothing too bad.

Zamus pretty much has poor OOS options and is subject to shield pressure, the moment we throw a piece at her, we're at perfect position to pull anything we want to pull... not to mention a piece still chips off small piece of her shield, it ain't that half bad too. Glide toss to Dair shield pressure is nice way to go aggressive on her as long your smart with it. i agree 55:45 mario

 

[Matador]

Meh, I dunno this matchup well enough. Is this another one where you're supposed to camp?

 

[KirinBlaze]

Camping is probably a viable option in any match-up. I mean this is Brawl. :\

 

[ThreeSided]

I'd argue that it's a lot more complicated with the suit peaces than you're making it seem... we use them for zoning, and it can be really effective. We can even combo with them, if we really know what we're doing. And a good zamus is really good at keeping her pieces away from the opponent. Side-b still works while holding a piece, so it's great for knocking them away from a piece, even if we're holding one and we're a fair distance away. Remember, we start with them on our side, and we'll rarely just chuck them straight ahead, especially if the opponent has a reflector. It's a lot more intelligible than that.

 

[Matador]

Camping is probably a viable option in any match-up. I mean this is Brawl. :\

I see what you're saying, but I generally play aggressively. I was thinking that this is one of those matchups where that simply doesn't fly.

<---agrees that ZSS > Mario with pieces. Our glidetoss is pathetic.

 

[KirinBlaze]

I see what you're saying, but I generally play aggressively. I was thinking that this is one of those matchups where that simply doesn't fly.

<---agrees that ZSS > Mario with pieces. Our glidetoss is pathetic.

Forget glide tossing. Kite them and RJCT the pieces. This is also very effective against Diddy.

 

[hippiedude92]

Forget glide tossing. Kite them and RJCT the pieces. This is also very effective against Diddy.

Your lingo pains me very dearly. Define what you just said pls.

 

[KirinBlaze]

JCT = Jump Cancel Throw.
RJCT = Reverse Jump Cancel Throw.

This is a very common term among Link players, it's used as a substitute for Bomb Sliding and Reverse Bomb Sliding. What you're basically doing is running, jumping, and throwing your item all at the same time. This can be preformed any time while you're running with an item in hand. Simply Slide your finger from X (Or Whatever your jump button is) onto A and pick a direction to throw. I have a jump set to R for this, but it's very easy with Y or X as jump as well. RJCT is very useful out of kiting, baiting your opponent to chase after you. You're running with your back to them then all of a sudden you're turned around hurling the item you were just holding at them. It's also very easy to follow up out of with items that trip, like bananas.

 

[ThreeSided]

I'd argue that it's a lot more complicated with the suit peaces than you're making it seem... we use them for zoning, and it can be really effective. We can even combo with them, if we really know what we're doing. And a good zamus is really good at keeping her pieces away from the opponent. Side-b still works while holding a piece, so it's great for knocking them away from a piece, even if we're holding one and we're a fair distance away. Remember, we start with them on our side, and we'll rarely just chuck them straight ahead, especially if the opponent has a reflector. It's a lot more intelligible than that.

Quoting because it looks like it was missed by a lot.

 

[Matador]

Quoting because it looks like it was missed by a lot.

What do you want to hear? We're going over options. You weren't ignored. Notice that we're all talking about the pieces now.

 

[ThreeSided]

What do you want to hear? We're going over options. You weren't ignored. Notice that we're all talking about the pieces now.

Wasn't certain. Someone made a post responding to mine about the pieces, but didn't quote me. I figured the responses could have been to it, and therefore were not necessarily said with knowledge of my post.

I apologize if there was a misunderstanding. I'm just here to help. ^_^;

 

[:mad:]

Alright, what's the general opinion on the ratio?
I've heard so many skewed opinions, mainly from 60:40 ZSS to 60:40 Mario.

 

[Matt07]

I've been hearing a lot 50:50 or 55:45 Mario's favour. I dunno I'm good with either one.

I'll say 50:50 imo though.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, 50:50 sounds about right.
Any ideas for who we should start on next? Dedede maybe?

 

[Matt07]

Blah, let's do a more interesting character lol. Umm who haven't we really discussed....Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer, Pit(?), Ganondorf, Captain Falcon.

Those are the ones I think we really haven't discussed that much before.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Pit. He's the highest on the threat list.

 

[Inferno3044]

I think we are taking the power of the suit pieces a bit too far. I was at a tourney today and Snakeee was there. I'm pretty sure he didn't use the suit pieces much if at all. Also let me refer to your first quote about it.

So far, I agree with the mechanics stated. But as far as the whole match up goes, I think something's been overlooked. It may usually only last one stock (of whomever), but it makes a difference.

The suit pieces.

Now obviously the cape limits what Zamus can do with them, but against a Mario, I like to NOT throw them directly, and use them more for stage control and zoning. You can put Mario in a really bad position, and they're also really good to just chuck if Mario approaches with an aerial.

Mixture of pieces and side-b make things really difficult to deal with. A Zamus playing properly will keep good care at protecting her pieces, and zoning with an up/down glide toss can do wonders.

Everyone always forgets the suit pieces...

If ever used, it only lasts ONE stock. Chances are it won't kill anyways and they probably will dodge some of your attempts to throw them. It's not something big enough to really change a match and vs. Mario, it really doesnt change anything. I believe Mario can use them against ZSS as much as ZSS can use them for her own advantage, if not a tad more because we can reflect yours.

All in all, I stand by what I said before. 55:45 Mario, arguable for 50:50.

Moving on, if we talk about Dedede, we should have it mainly talking WITHOUT the infinite. We can add the infinite after we can fully agree the matchup without it. I'm not sure about going to Pit. I've heard they are terrible when it comes to talking about the matchups and we wouldn't get as much of an input from the opposing character, which I highly prefer having. I'm fine with really any character.

Matt: Those other characters aren't really used much, so it's not too big of a help to do them immediately. I know they can catch people off guard a bit, but I really think there are other characters we should talk about first that are either more common or will give us a harder time. I'll go to the other character's board when we decide.

 

[triforce hero]

I sugest trying to knock him down off stage really, then will he starts going up go under and Uair him

 

[triforce hero]

Anyone wanna talk about pokemon trainer mario match up?