The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[:mad:]

Pokemon Trainer sounds good. I'll just use page numbers for this, this there weren't many real summaries.

 

[Inferno3044]

So PT is next? I'm assuming there's gonna be a matchup for each pokemon then and overall matchup?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pokemon trainer:

vs Squirtle: Like Wario, but not quite as good. You go pretty even with him IMO. Space Jabs/B-air, kill him with Up-smash or gimps via N-air/Cape.

vs Ivysaur: fireball camp, get her offstage, edgeguard her with U-air (the angle from which you can hit with this is hard for Ivysaur to punish you), edgehog. I think you can punish her grab with reverse F-smash if you were outside of its range.

vs Charizard: fireball camp, D-throw, U-tilt, U-air juggle, N-air and Cape edgeguard, edgehog.

There, that's the matchup. All in all like 6/4 Mario, maybe slightly less.

 

[Inferno3044]

I want to go a little more in depth if you don't mind A2

Keep in mind that PT has a special disadvantage: Pokemon fatigue. From what I've heard, it means that as well as moves staling, the pokemon will eventually get tired as over time, its attacks will get weaker. I believe that it gets to its all low after 2 minutes of fighting with that pokemon. I don't know what returning has on this and I might have some of the information wrong about this.


Squirtle is kinda like a weaker, lighter, faster Mario with an amazing Usmash. It's something that you should watch out for. His aerials are quick, but yours can match his. He will die at low percents, but he takes less knockback from fire based attacks, so Fsmash isn't your best option to kill. Use Usmash instead. He is also pretty easily gimpable using the cape. I believe it's 60:40 Mario or 55:45 Mario.


Against Ivysaur, fireball camping is a good option. He has a projectile that he will use when he is at a distance, but caping it shouldn't be a problem. Since Ivysaur is a grass type, fire will do more knockback, so Fsmash is a good option. Ivysaur has some very good kill moves and his range is pretty good. His recovery is horrible and is extremely. Get him a good distance off stage and not too high, just hog the edge and he is dead. Either that or kill him with an Fsmash. I think Mario has it really good against Ivysaur. 60-40 Mario at least. Maybe even 65:35 Mario, but I might not know some stuff about Ivysaur.


Charizard is a big heavy character like ROB and DK. Practically if you get hit by a smash at semi high percentages, you will die if they didn't stale them. Treat them like you would against a big heavy weight. Use fireballs to camp them when they are away from you. When they get close, use a combo starter like U-tilt or D-throw and just juggle to get percents. Like the other two pokemon, he is very gimpable using the cape. I'm not sure on a matchup on this. To keep it wide (and to spark conversation) I'll put a range from 60:40 Mario to 55:45 Charizard.


From what I know, I'm gonna give the matchup 60:40 Mario arguable for 55:45.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I just like to throw out that Ivysaur's Bair can cancel Fireballs (I think) and be used as a spacing tool. I'll have to see if Bair does cancel them.

Personally I feel like its

5:5 -45:55 Mario's advantage
45:55-4:6 Marios advantage
5:5- 55:45 Charizards advantage

I'll post reasons later, Seeing how its late at night and I need my sleep.

 

[hippiedude92]

I'll agree on 5/5 on Zard. No where near 55:45 in zard's adv IMO. That's like saying Boozer is bettering than us too lulz.

 

[Steeler]

yes ivy bair cancels out fireballs, and outspaces every attack mario has.

charizard is better than bowser, so it's not far-fetched that he'd do better against mario. and how is 5/5 "no where near" 55/45 charizard advantage?

also, did you know? mario is a clone of squirtle.

i don't play enough good marios (does anyone??) to comment in depth but this feels like a pretty even matchup. squirtle's juggling is more potent than mario's, and his ground game far exceeds that of mario. 1 frame jab is the most important part. ivysaur and charizard will excel at spacing mario out because of his lack of range, and punishing mario. getting juggled is very bad for both of them. if they can avoid that, pt should do very well against mario. it just seems like whoever gets the momentum and takes advantage of it the most will win.

but listen. mario will have a difficult time getting inside and setting up his juggles against a good pt. squirtle's too small and fast, ivysaur has great spacers in bair, ftilt, dtilt and charizard has 2 frame rock smash and greater grab range than dedede. keep that in mind. this isn't an easy matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ivysaur doesn't really space Mario that much since Mario's F-smash has a ton of range too and KOs really early on her (for clarification, it outranges Marth's F-smash when reversed).

Mario can mess up Ivy's spacing with FLUDD camping to push her towards the edge where there is less room to move.

Anyhow, Bowser is better than Charizard. Better out of shield options, Klaw >>> Rock Smash since it's a grab that can be done anywhere that has ZERO LANDING LAG, grab release shenanigans. But the matchup is pretty much the same, and in Mario's favor, although Charizard is hurt slightly less from FD due to the way his recovery works, but doesn't do as well as Bowser on BF. Basically the matchup goes like this, Mario camps, if he shields/spotdodges an attack = free U-tilt or D-throw -> juggles which do like 60%. Offstage, overall Mario has more options and does better.

Squirtle, it's even as I was saying. Mario has actual camping and is better offstage, but Squirtle is a bit better with KOs.

Mario is one of the harder low tier characters to stop from edgecamping, not like we'll need to/bother to do it, but just saying....since fatigue sucks.

 

[SkylerOcon]

charizard is better than bowser

What game are you playing? The only game where Charizard is better than any giant turtle is Pokemon. Bowser is better than Charizard.

Anyway, I think the match-up is 55:45 in Mario's favor (arguably 60:40 Mario), but I can't type my reasons right now, due to me leaving on a four day trip right now.

 

[HeroMystic]

Oh not this **** again.

 

[Charizard92]

What game are you playing? The only game where Charizard is better than any giant turtle is Pokemon. Bowser is better than Charizard.

Anyway, I think the match-up is 55:45 in Mario's favor (arguably 60:40 Mario), but I can't type my reasons right now, due to me leaving on a four day trip right now.

You are wrong in two ways:

1: in Pokemon, Squirtle evolves into a gigantic turtle, and is water type, having an advantage over Charizard. Torterra, the Pokemon you are likely thinking about, is technically a tortoise (tortoise land, turtle water, simple difference).

2: Bowser is a heavyweight, and a standard issue one at that. Charizard beats almost every member of his own group, the heavyweights. There are exceptions, and Bowser isn't one of them (Dedede and Snake, if you needed to know). Bowser is slower, and less agile. Charizard also has that nasty grab game, glide, Rock smash, etc. Charizard isn't Bowser modified, and Charizard beats Bowser.

Also remember, Flamethrower cancels out fireballs (and so does jumping apparently). Cape spam is a nuisance but Charizard is HARD to gimp period. You have to deal with gliding, 2 air jumps, super armor fly, and the fact that he is incredibly heavy. This is the most agile heavy hitter after all. There aren't any real projectiles (barring rock smash, theoretically, I've never seen it) that you can reflect back. All you can really do is annoy him. The best thing to do (and I can't believe I'm telling the other guy in the match up this) is to juggle him, as Charizard has surprisingly no defense against Juggling. The hard part is getting him up there, as his grab range beats yours (and starts of a painful throwing game). Most Charizard users rarely use Smashes (sans Usmash), but Charizard has a tool Kit of KO moves (Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, Fair, bair, dair, Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash, Fthrow, Uthrow, bthrow, dthrow (rarely used as it is easy to DI out of) Rock smash, and fly), so you still are going to die early. just try to juggle him and annoy him with the cape, that's all I can give you.

somewhere in between 55: 45 Charizard to 45:55 Mario. I personally think it's 50:50 even.

 

[Matt07]

I'll agree on 5/5 on Zard. No where near 55:45 in zard's adv IMO. That's like saying Boozer is bettering than us too lulz.

Bowser is better then us now, he's got an infinite on us (I think.)

Oh not this **** again.

Lmao.

 

[hippiedude92]

Oh not this **** again.

LMFAO! I know right? probably like the best 2nd or 3rd board when it comes to debates in matchup boards, not to mention this was a mother****ing debate that'll never stop

yes ivy bair cancels out fireballs, and outspaces every attack mario has.

charizard is better than bowser, so it's not far-fetched that he'd do better against mario. and how is 5/5 "no where near" 55/45 charizard advantage?

also, did you know? mario is a clone of squirtle.

i don't play enough good marios (does anyone??) to comment in depth but this feels like a pretty even matchup. squirtle's juggling is more potent than mario's, and his ground game far exceeds that of mario. 1 frame jab is the most important part. ivysaur and charizard will excel at spacing mario out because of his lack of range, and punishing mario. getting juggled is very bad for both of them. if they can avoid that, pt should do very well against mario. it just seems like whoever gets the momentum and takes advantage of it the most will win.

but listen. mario will have a difficult time getting inside and setting up his juggles against a good pt. squirtle's too small and fast, ivysaur has great spacers in bair, ftilt, dtilt and charizard has 2 frame rock smash and greater grab range than dedede. keep that in mind. this isn't an easy matchup.

I play some good PTs, or I think I do? lol. I play gurukid's PT and Ninjalink's PT if that helps. Idk why, but when it comes to PTs, I go hot and cold on them. Squirtle IMO is the most tuffest mother****ing turtle out of the 3. Probably because he can do so much mindgames and juggle mario like ****. So I'll agree with u on squirtle's juggleing part.

Like most matchups, Mario is out-ranged and he'll have to use his tools to get inside. >.>

As for Zard gimping, I haven't fought it THAT hard, but that's where I find most of my kills. The only real hard way to gimp him is if he's really high so he can just glide his way back, or down below but idont find that a problem. Fludd wrecks his 2 air jumps, gliding, (his gliding isn't THAT good from what i heard), we can cape his fly at the right moment, or we can just speed edgehog then, upair him when hes ending lag upb on stage.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Really, whats with this comparing Charizard to Bowser. They are not alike in most ways, except that They are 2 Big huge targets .

Charizard has more speed and agileness and can gimp well , while Bowser has a better defensive game.

Charizard has fast ranged attacks,( DTILT!!!!!) and can SH his aerials to space as well. Flamethrower is also useful in this matchup. Rocksmash also can put some hurt. Charizard may be able to juggle people well believe it or not (Utilt, Uair, and Upsmash). Charizard can also gimp Mario, One Fair is all it takes. Also, he has a very long grab, like Steeler said.


Mario however can combo the heck out of Charizard. He can do uilt to lots of uairs. He also has those darn fireballs, leading to set-ups and just plain annoying you. His Fludd can induce lag into Rocksmash I believe. Mario's Fludd can induce lag on some of Charizard's moves like Rock smash. Mario can also easily cape Charizards fly, so those 2 midair jumps better count.

I will be happy to play a few games online to help with the matchup, although I may not really be a great player .

 

[Inferno3044]

Other than gliding, i cant see how charizard is hard to gimp. His recovery isn't that good and super armor doesnt stop us from being able to cape it. There are much harder characters we can gimp (MK, D3, Snake, Pikachu, etc) If we can gimp them, then we have no problem gimping any of PT's pokemon. I know that flamethrower cancels fireballs like Bowser's fire breath does, but we can jump so that it will hit you. We aren't Luigi whose fireballs go straight in the air. Everybody says "we can space Mario because we have more range." We get inside their range then end up comboing or juggling. A lot of the cast outranges Mario. We are used to it. Also, I'm not sure why but we can cape your rock smash dealing quite a bit of damage to you.

I think Mario actually outranges Squirtle, which will make us able to space him well with bair. He is very fast and annoying, but he lacks a variety of kill moves and it'll get predictable when you wanna use a kill move like Usmash. He is extremely light and will die at very low percents. We can juggle each other pretty equally so it's not that big of an advantage. Also, we can use Fsmash because of its amazing range to at least get you off stage and get a gimp.

I haven't heard really anything really about what Ivysaur can do, so I'm thinking we can destroy him. We can get an Fsmash at a low percent to hit them offstage kinda far and edgehog and he's dead. Nobody really put anything for Ivysaur except they can space, but that isn't a big problem. Assuming nobody is really arguing about this part, does 60-40 Mario seem reasonable vs. Ivysaur? It might not be Mario ****, but we definitely have a clear advantage.

For all of them, pokemon fatigue sucks, and that has to be put into account. It really messes them up and can give us a pretty big advantage. This also gives us a reason to fireball camp because as we are dealing some damage by camping with fireballs, FLUDD, bair, etc. (and you said that fireball camping is pretty effective vs. Ivysaur and Charizard) your power and knockback go down. That gives you a big disadvantage that really can't be overlooked. If that wasn't in the game, I think PT would be much better. How does returning effect the fatigue?

 

[hippiedude92]

IIRC, Cape has about same range as Rocksmash or slightly more. I know it's like the same range as to MArth's Fair. Most of the time, Squirtles will be using dthrow to finish us off at like 120%? lol.

They say Ivy's tools is all about anti-air moves. Maybe it's just me or i haven't fought good PTs (gurukid and Ninjalink aren't good eh? >.>) I has a easy time getting inside Ivy's range and juggling him like no tomrrow. That's just me tho.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Mario can get into Ivysaur's comfort zone somewhat easily.
I have to agree on the 4:6 disadvantage.

Stamina is quite bad, but not as bad as everyone makes it out to be . All the PT have great KB no their throws that can give them a switch oppurtunity, and have great ways to rack up that damage.

I am not sure about NL and Gurukid, I have not seen them play.

 

[Charizard92]

Other than gliding, i cant see how charizard is hard to gimp. His recovery isn't that good and super armor doesnt stop us from being able to cape it. There are much harder characters we can gimp (MK, D3, Snake, Pikachu, etc) If we can gimp them, then we have no problem gimping any of PT's pokemon. I know that flamethrower cancels fireballs like Bowser's fire breath does, but we can jump so that it will hit you. We aren't Luigi whose fireballs go straight in the air. Everybody says "we can space Mario because we have more range." We get inside their range then end up comboing or juggling. A lot of the cast outranges Mario. We are used to it. Also, I'm not sure why but we can cape your rock smash dealing quite a bit of damage to you.

For all of them, pokemon fatigue sucks, and that has to be put into account. It really messes them up and can give us a pretty big advantage. This also gives us a reason to fireball camp because as we are dealing some damage by camping with fireballs, FLUDD, bair, etc. (and you said that fireball camping is pretty effective vs. Ivysaur and Charizard) your power and knockback go down. That gives you a big disadvantage that really can't be overlooked. If that wasn't in the game, I think PT would be much better. How does returning effect the fatigue?

Well, Charizard's recovery is above average, so gimping is harder than against the likes of Falco and Bowser (and Snake's recovery isn't THAT great). Also, Flamethrower can be angled, which can (to a degree) counter an air fireball. Outside that, Take my advice, just find a way to get him airborne and over you while avoiding being grabbed.

OK, I want to tell you this here and now, FATIGUE IS NOT A FACTOR IN A MATCH UP. A good PT would find a way to get a fatigued Pokemon out, whether it is by giving him space, KOing himself, or KOing you. Very rarely will fatigue come into effect, so don't say "we got an advantage because you have fatigue".

 

[:mad:]

Well, Charizard's recovery is above average, so gimping is harder than against the likes of Falco and Bowser (and Snake's recovery isn't THAT great). Also, Flamethrower can be angled, which can (to a degree) counter an air fireball. Outside that, Take my advice, just find a way to get him airborne and over you while avoiding being grabbed.

Yeah, I can't argue with that. It's actually pretty good, but extremely gimpable. If you recover from low, a Mario can drop down and Bair you. And honestly, Bowser is much harder to gimp than Charizard.

Yeah, but Mario can dish out plenty of fireballs. If you're stopping them with Flamethrower, that just projects to us that you're going on the defensive. So you're actually wasting your own time dealing with fatigue. You'll HAVE to approach some time and force Mario far enough for you to switch.

OK, I want to tell you this here and now, FATIGUE IS NOT A FACTOR IN A MATCH UP. A good PT would find a way to get a fatigued Pokemon out, whether it is by giving him space, KOing himself, or KOing you. Very rarely will fatigue come into effect, so don't say "we got an advantage because you have fatigue".

None of us even considered going in-depht on fatigue.

 

[hippiedude92]

SH fludd approach > flamethrower up angled. get wrecked no lie too lolz.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, I can't argue with that. It's actually pretty good, but extremely gimpable. If you recover from low, a Mario can drop down and Bair you. And honestly, Bowser is much harder to gimp than Charizard.

Yeah, but Mario can dish out plenty of fireballs. If you're stopping them with Flamethrower, that just projects to us that you're going on the defensive. So you're actually wasting your own time dealing with fatigue. You'll HAVE to approach some time and force Mario far enough for you to switch.

.

Bowser has poor vertical recovery and average Horizontal recovery. Charizard has Above average Vertical recovery and nightmarishly good horizontal recovery. I'd say Cape is a better gimper. Then again, around 75% of the work is actually getting Charizard off the stage and somewhat below it.

Err, Charizard is about as Versatile as Mario (at least that's what I'd expect from a balanced Character). Charizard does as well defensively as he does offensively. Mario's fireballs may only keep him out of Mid range, but only for so long.

In fact, some PT users actually consider Charizard the LEAST affected by Fatigue, as he is still powerful, just less so.

Oh, and Fatigue only lowers attack by around 30% or so, so Charizard is still as agile as he is at full stamina. That isn't really a break, more like a 3 sec. breather.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Lol, gimping charizard is easy, just cape, or toadstool him.

Btw, fireballz are fun.

 

[:mad:]

Bowser has poor vertical recovery and average Horizontal recovery. Charizard has Above average Vertical recovery and nightmarishly good horizontal recovery. I'd say Cape is a better gimper. Then again, around 75% of the work is actually getting Charizard off the stage and somewhat below it.

Bowser has better options when it comes to getting Mario away so he can prevent being gimped. With good meteor cancelling, neither characters will ever be that far below the stage. Bowser has better aerial speed, so on the offchance he does get caped, he'll be closer to the stage to start out with, and have the possibility of grabbing the ledge first. Bowser can also just Fair the Mario, since it is fairly fast and will get him out of the way.

Err, Charizard is about as Versatile as Mario (at least that's what I'd expect from a balanced Character). Charizard does as well defensively as he does offensively. Mario's fireballs may only keep him out of Mid range, but only for so long.

Absolutely. I was just saying earlier that he's put in a defensive postition, and he Charizard is just stupidly wasting time.

In fact, some PT users actually consider Charizard the LEAST affected by Fatigue, as he is still powerful, just less so.

Yeah, if Charizard can't land a kill on the ground, his aerials aren't the best for killing. Although Nair and Fair could easily gimp Mario, he can still combo Charizard into oblivion.

Oh, and Fatigue only lowers attack by around 30% or so, so Charizard is still as agile as he is at full stamina. That isn't really a break, more like a 3 sec. breather.

Why are you putting so much emphasis on fatigue when you just said earlier that it didn't matter?

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I have to remind you that Charizard can get his revenge offstage with Fair .

Boswers recovery does not have as much distance, however, It has a lot of priority and speed.
It also has invincibility frames at the start I think. Thats just UPB.

Can we please stop comparing Charizard to Bowser <.<?

 

[hippiedude92]

Can we like stop comparing boozer and Zard already? They're both trash either way so let's continue the matchup discussion already.

 

[:mad:]

Rofl. Neither of you brought up any thing new, you just told us to get back to the discussion.

 

[Matador]

vs Squirtle: Try to outspace him with Bairs and Nair your way out of combos. He's very similar to Mario in regards to his complete domination in the air, so be sure that you take advantage of Bair's reach where you can. Also keep your Usmash fresh for him, you'll need it to KO since it's not particularly easy to land Fsmash on Squirtle due to his small stature and aerial speed. Also be sure to take advantage of our OOS game if you feel pressured and don't be afraid to grab more than combo to rack up damage. You only need around 90 or 100% to KO or at least get him offstage to try for a gimp. The hardest of the 3 pokemon for Mario if you try too hard to challenge him aerially or grounded. Space yourself and play it safe.

vs Ivy: Potentially very difficult if you allow it to be. Her Bair cancels our fireballs for approach and her Nair is an excellent combo breaker. She also KOs extremely early on select moves if you position yourself unwisely. If you find yourself having a hard time getting inside, mix up your approaches. Her Bair is a great spacing move, but you still have ample time between attacks to get within his safety zone where you have free reign to combo her. Don't try to Utilt lock or be predictable with your uair chains. Read when you think she'll try to Nair out and stop your combo to shield grab, or simply run away to reset the battle. Play it smart, pressure her to the ledge where you can try to Dsmash/Nair/Fthrow and edgeguard for early gimps.

vs Charizard: He'll be approaching via rocksmash or flamethrower. Space yourself accordingly and be ready to cape that rocksmash for massive damage (lol). Once inside, Uair and Utilt as you would Bowser or DK. Remember to pressure his shield with Dair and capejump to bait and punish shieldgrabs when you're close. Don't try to grab him from the front unless you're punishing; always from behind where his grab range won't beat out our lol-tastic one. Approaching in general isn't terribly difficult vs Charizard, but make sure that you don't fireball approach as he's approaching you with rocksmash; you'll eat a tide-changing amount of damage.

All 3 of the pokemon aren't especially hard to gimp either. One Fludd -> cape will usually do it, but DO note that Ivy's upB can stage spike you and she can sideB to get you off the ledge, so keep your invincibility when ledgehogging.

Squirtle has great aerial movement, but cape > his upB range-wise, so space properly. A cape anywhere after his DJ will use his aerial speed against him and screw him before he even gets his upB off by pushing him too far from the ledge.

Charizard is best caped as he's doing his upB. If you cape him beforehand, be sure to do it multiple times to eliminate his other jumps. Use fireballs if you need to. He also relies pretty heavily on forward momentum like Link and ourselves, so Fludd will work rather well.

Boozer =/= Zard

 

[:mad:]

Oh my god Matador.
Thanks for the wall. <3

 

[Inferno3044]

Charizards horizontal range on fly is garbage, but I'm gonna assume yer talking about gliding. It isn't that big a deal. If you can get them off the stage and not much higher than it, they probably won't make it to the edge without fly. The vertical recovery of it is not above average. It's about as high as Marth's which isn't good vertically. The reason its good as a recovery is because its very fast. Charizard's is slower by a lot If you are comparing charizard's recovery to people with crappy vertical recoveries like bowser or dk or tether recoveries like oli or ivy where all you gotta do is get them some distance off and edge hog, then he has a good recovery. I probably can name 15 characters who have a higher vertical recovery. Either way its still easily gimpable. Height doesn't make it less gimpable. Its very predictable and we can gimp with the cape like that.

I will say one last thing about pokemon fatigue and that's it. A reduction of 30% is a lot. That's roughly 1/3. If you can handle it then fine.

EDIT: Thank you Matador for the info. Any opinion on the matchups for each and overall?

 

[A2ZOMG]

All 3 of the pokemon aren't especially hard to gimp either. One Fludd -> cape will usually do it, but DO note that Ivy's upB can stage spike you and she can sideB to get you off the ledge, so keep your invincibility when ledgehogging.

This is why I said to edgeguard her with U-air. The angle from which you can approach with this aerial can be very difficult for Ivysaur to cover. And it'll gimp her like anything else once you edgehog.

You'll usually survive the stagespike, or you could tech it too.

 

[HeroMystic]

Also, I'm not sure why but we can cape your rock smash dealing quite a bit of damage to you.

Which outright destroys any type of overall advantage that Charizard has.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

...Ivysaur is a girl?

 

[hippiedude92]

Yes she is a girl. inorite

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, you didn't notice?
If you pause while she's doing her Bair...

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Yes, Ivysaur is a girl. You can listen to the japanese voice to make sure.

Meh, Razor leaf off the ledge is an old trend these days. Now we try to razor leaf backwards to Bair if we can.

Also, Just because Mario can cape Rocksmash does not mean he destroys Charizard's possible advantage. He has other ways to get the job done.

 

[hippiedude92]

Yes, Ivysaur is a girl. You can listen to the japanese voice to make sure.

Meh, Razor leaf off the ledge is an old trend these days. Now we try to razor leaf backwards to Bair if we can.

Also, Just because Mario can cape Rocksmash does not mean he destroys Charizard's possible advantage. He has other ways to get the job done.

Which possible ways would be...?

 

[:mad:]

Yes, Ivysaur is a girl. You can listen to the japanese voice to make sure.

Meh, Razor leaf off the ledge is an old trend these days. Now we try to razor leaf backwards to Bair if we can.

Also, Just because Mario can cape Rocksmash does not mean he destroys Charizard's possible advantage. He has other ways to get the job done.

Rock Smash is his best move, and the main way 'Zards rack up damage.
Without that, it only makes it easier for us. So you lose that advantage.

 

[bobson]

What's all this about Charizard being hard to gimp? The only minorly annoying thing is his glide, and he has the worst glide in the game. His air jumps are so tiny that other characters can get more height with their single double jump than all of his combined, and Fly is cape fodder.


Also, Bowser infinites Metaknight.
Does Charizard infinite Metaknight?




Nnnnope.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Which possible ways would be...?

Flame Thrower is a good alternative if not predicted.

Charizards juggle game (lulz) Uthrow and uairs ftw.
SH Bairs and Fairs are also good, not to mention Nair is a good GTFO move.
Charizard can still use Rock Smash well, just not abuse it.


Edit: Where are my Brethren?

 

[:mad:]

I almost forgot that Charizard has the better juggle game. No, wait.
That's Mario.

Charizard's Nair is a bad GTFO move.
Mario's Nair is a good GTFO move.

Mario can cape the Rock Smash faster than Charizard can use it.