The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[HeroMystic]

It seems my words are just going in one ear and out the other. It also seems that everyone is only focusing on one part of my post that I bothered to type up, but whatever.

Ok the "Marth outranges Mario" to "85% of the cast does so should they all be 65/35" argument is a little faul.

wtf @ bolded, when did I say that?

Do not twist my words and take it like I said it. I simply said Marth has a range advantage on Mario, but that does not make this match-up. Range disadvantages is a general con for Mario and it's something that has to be worked around every time.

Mario has the tools to get inside Marth. It's Mario's game once he is inside because he can combo Marth quite well. Marth can keep Mario out but only if he plays very flawlessly, predicts every motion that Mario makes, and unrealistically perfectly.

 

[Steel]

But you didn't specify how Mario can reliably get inside. You basically have to wait for him to mess up. How does that imply a close match up?

What are these tools you are talking about?

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah...

You say Marth shuts down ~90% of Mario's game. Ignoring that fact that this is not true, I'd say that 10% is all we need because of the quality of Mario's defensive options. Fireball, FLUDD, and camping are good quality tactics to use against Marth.

Fireballing has been explained already, so I'll focus on FLUDD. I first have to wonder if any Marth player here knows about FIHL. If not, it's no wonder that people are harping about "it has to be charged up", which is far from the truth.

If you don't know about FIHL, I'll gladly explain. If you do, then you'd know why FLUDD is a good tactic against Marth.

You say Marth can powershield fireballs, I say who cares? The fact that you're not zoning me and I can go on the offensive is an advantage in of itself. If you're powershielding, that means you're not attacking me. If you're not attacking me, I have all of my options open.

Fireballs and camping go hand-in-hand. You powershiel my fireballs and go 'hah!', but then you see more fireballs coming at you and you're continuously powershielding them. You have no momentum. You're playing by my rules, and you're the one stuck in a defensive role trying to get past fireballs so you can openly attack. While you're doing that, you have no idea what I'm going to do. I can suddenly move in and attack, or just keep fireballing, or simply stop fireballing altogether to bait an attack.

You say Mario has to wait for Marth to screw up in order for Mario to take an advantage. I'd say the fact that Marth can't screw up since Mario can punish heavily from it is reason enough that this is no more than 60:40. If you can't screw up, that means you always have to be on your A-game. And lets be honest here, no Marth player is perfect. Basing any match-up on perfect players is moot.

I shouldn't have to say more than this.

 

[Steel]

I know what FLUDD can do and I understand that it doesn't have to be charged. However, it doesn't come out instantly and I can't see it being too useful at close range when being constantly attacked with fairs and dtilts.

You're making it seem like Marth has difficulty dealing with projectiles. His mobility and ability to swat a lot of projectiles in this game make getting past them not a big deal. We beat Falco 60:40. All Falco has is lasers because he can't compete up close. And even then, both boards agree that Marth doesn't have trouble getting past his wall of lasers and can easily trap Falco when they are both up close.

Same thing applies with Mario. Once Marth gets past this relatively easy projectile and has you at tipper range he controls you. You have to resort to shielding and running away. Obviously, Mario will get in sometimes. It's going to happen. But reliably? Mario has no tools to RELIABLY get inside. When I asked all you did was talk about fireballs and FLUDD which aren't safe up close. You understand Marth isn't playing defensive in this match, right?

 

[HeroMystic]

I know what FLUDD can do and I understand that it doesn't have to be charged. However, it doesn't come out instantly and I can't see it being too useful at close range when being constantly attacked with fairs and dtilts.

Why is Mario going to use FLUDD up close in the first place? He's not. If Marth is using F-airs and D-tilts, Mario is going to be SHADing and using the cape. FLUDD is going to be used to massively destroy your approaching/spacing.

You're making it seem like Marth has difficulty dealing with projectiles. His mobility and ability to swat a lot of projectiles in this game make getting past them not a big deal. We beat Falco 60:40. All Falco has is lasers because he can't compete up close. And even then, both boards agree that Marth doesn't have trouble getting past his wall of lasers and can easily trap Falco when they are both up close.

Mario is not comparable to Falco. Falco's air game is average. Mario's is above average. Falco's ground game is above average, Mario's is average. Falco's lasers are quick and straight. Mario's fireballs are slow but affected by gravity. Falco has a subpar gimp game. Mario has an excellent gimp game. The only thing Mario and Falco have in common are the fact that they both can do a lot with their projectiles.

Same thing applies with Mario. Once Marth gets past this relatively easy projectile and has you at tipper range he controls you. You have to resort to shielding and running away. Obviously, Mario will get in sometimes. It's going to happen. But reliably? Mario has no tools to RELIABLY get inside. When I asked all you did was talk about fireballs and FLUDD which aren't safe up close. You understand Marth isn't playing defensive in this match, right?

Because Marth can easily control Mario, amrite? I can reverse that and say can Marth reliably put Mario in tipper range? Better yet, can Marth get Mario off of him once he does get up close?

Btw, FLUDD is a reliable tool.

 

[Steel]

Point is, FLUDD's usefulness is reduced because most of the match isn't going to be approaching by Marth. He'll pretty much be there most of the time. FLUDD can't work every time you use it and I know you want to use fireballs too.

I compared Mario to Falco because you both use projectiles. I find Falco's projectiles a much better control tool and yet we still get past without a problem. Mario's projectile doesn't compare to Falco's.

When Mario manages to get inside he'll probably rack up a few hits but that's it. The situation is then set back to neutral. This is Brawl, after all.

SHAD and cape? Really?

Really?

Reaaaaaaaalllyy?

OK. Whenever Mario gets inside we'll SHAD away too and do some crazy ninja ****. You're seriously reaching for stuff now.

 

[HeroMystic]

Point is, FLUDD's usefulness is reduced because most of the match isn't going to be approaching by Marth. He'll pretty much be there most of the time. FLUDD can't work every time you use it and I know you want to use fireballs too.

wut?

So Marth can teleport in front of Mario and glue himself to him as a way for him to be there most of the time? Last I remembered, you said Marth will be keeping Mario in tipper range, and Mario will have to run away. And last I remembered, nearly every Marth that posted so far has been talking about powershielding fireballs. You'll need more than "Marth will be there most of time" to disregard FLUDD.

I compared Mario to Falco because you both use projectiles. I find Falco's projectiles a much better control tool and yet we still get past without a problem. Mario's projectile doesn't compare to Falco's.

Falco's projectile is better in the fact that it's quick and comes out faster, and outright stuns your approaching. Mario's fireball does the same but at a slower and more vulnerable pace, but Mario's fireball is more used to manipulate approach methods and make you predictable.

But I do agree that Falco's projectile is better. However, that doesn't mean Mario's fireballs should be disregarded since it's a lesser version.

When Mario manages to get inside he'll probably rack up a few hits but that's it. The situation is then set back to neutral. This is Brawl, after all.

I've done more than "rack up a few hits". Mario can stay on Marth for awhile before setting it back to neutral, where unless Marth goes back to being aggressive unless he wants to switch to defense.

SHAD and cape? Really?

Really?

Reaaaaaaaalllyy?

OK. Whenever Mario gets inside we'll SHAD away too and do some crazy ninja ****. You're seriously reaching for stuff now.

I didn't say SHAD was reliable, I said that's what we'll be using. Cape is semi-reliable in the fact that it totally screws up your spacing/approaching. The Cape has the same range as Marth's F-air while admittedly the cape comes out slower. However, when it hits it definitely resets the momentum. I mentioned SHADing because it gives us more options than simply shielding/spotdodging, in the fact that we can choose to either move in closer or move away. This isn't grasping for stuff, this is me naming an option since apparently running away is a bad thing.

Also, I still get the feeling that you're only focusing on one part of my post. If Mario had a 100% sure way of getting inside Marth every time I wouldn't be fighting for 40:60, I'd be fighting for neutral or advantage. I and many other Mario mains have acknowledged Mario's disadvantages and the Marths here so far has acknowledge most of Mario/Marth's advantages/disadvantages. The only problem we're having here is no one is acknowledging how much these pros/cons weigh on the match-up.

 

[_Kadaj_]

dude marth can f-air through fireballs and still maintain his spacing, or he can just jab through them

also SHADing will get you reverse grabbed alot

 

[HeroMystic]

dude marth can f-air through fireballs and still maintain his spacing, or he can just jab through them

also SHADing will get you reverse grabbed alot

Mario can full-hop/double-jump fireballs which goes over Marth's f-air. Jabbing through them leaves Marth open for approach.

I'll give you SHADing since I've never seen a Marth player use pivot grabs on me.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Kirin texted me last night and told me this was happening, and clearly the Mario boards can't grasp something:

We at the Marth boards are elitest pricks and will NOT argue with you over something we KNOW to be true. We're not going to tickle your egos by even humoring the idea that in a scenario set up for matchup discussions, Mario should be beating Marth.

I play Kirin A LOT. Like a lot a lot, because he's my teams partner, and he's awesome at playing Mario (And Link <3). He has told me all of the things you guys should be using to beat Marth in this match, which is a lot because I know Kirin studies almost every theory out there. He DOES beat me sometimes. However, I will say that what Steel says is VERY true. Dtilt wrecks Mario's ground game, which forces him into the air, a VERY bad place to be against Marth unless your name is Meta Christ. Dtilt wrecks a LOT of characters ground games, GnW for instance. I will also say that a lot of things the Mario boards are saying is correct, and that FLUDD is a powerful tool, on and off stage. Mario's Fireballs are also a HUGE factor in this match, IMO they're one of the best projectiles in the game (Maybe top 5) and guess what? Marth doesn't have a Tent/RV he can chill in. Marth is forced to approach and go aggro, and if he leaves holes in this, Mario can indeed pick on them and combo/juggle/edgeguard Marth. However, for the most part, Marth has a solution to Mario's answers, i.e. approaching with Marth's strong ground game when Mario uses FLUDD to stop aerial approaches. Mario, for the most part, DOES NOT have a solution to Marth's threats, mainly his range and ability to control Mario in the air/force him into the air.

I love the Marth boards, I love Kirin (And I suppose in turn the Mario boards because they DO WORK) but the Mario boards, imo, for the most part are in the wrong on this one. Steel is just acting like everyone else from the Marth boards does (see : elitist) and clearly people from the Mario boards don't understand that we're not here to be friendly and rub elbows, but discuss THEORY and FACT, which Steel did nothing but.

I will DISAGREE with Steel though, and call this 63-47 Marth. Who the **** said it has to go in intervals of five?

I hope to play a lot of you Mario mains at APEX, and I hope you're ready to see a Mario/Marth team **** the bawlz off everyone there

 

[_Kadaj_]

if mario double jumps and fireballs marth can simply walk under them given the right range, if he does it at a farther range marth can just jab the fireball

it may not look like it but marth isnt as vulnerable as you think when he jabs a projectile

edit: lol PD its in intervals of 5 avoid a sloppy mess of #s

 

[Punishment Divine]

if mario double jumps and fireballs marth can simply walk under them given the right range, if he does it at a farther range marth can just jab the fireball

it may not look like it but marth isnt as vulnerable as you think when he jabs a projectile

edit: lol PD its in intervals of 5 avoid a sloppy mess of #s

Apssshtttt **** that **** son

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario should only be double-jumping fireballs if Marth happens to catch him while he's freefalling.

I will DISAGREE with Steel though, and call this 63-47 Marth. Who the **** said it has to go in intervals of five?

But... but I love my interval of 5's...

 

[hippiedude92]

Hero, kadaj is right, Marths pivot grab is rly good espically when baiting a AD, basically resets the situation.

 

[HeroMystic]

No worries, I already gave him the pivot grabbing thingymabober.

 

[Famous]

Kirin texted me last night and told me this was happening, and clearly the Mario boards can't grasp something:



I hope to play a lot of you Mario mains at APEX, and I hope you're ready to see a Mario/Marth team **** the bawlz off everyone there

In the mean time enjoy these videos of Mario beating Marth

Teams
Famous&Boss Vs Kadaj&Candy (Double Marth Vs Double Mario)
Uploading...

Boss&Famous VS Atomsk&Candy
omg...I can't find it!!!

Singles
Famous Vs Random MD/VA Marth mains
uploading...

Boss Vs Marth...
might upload...

This may take awhile...my internet is shoddy atm

 

[feardragon64]

shutup and watch teh old school sex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2IJGWGoljk&feature=channel_page

lol Eazy logic.

Ok after reading through a bunch of the recent posts, I have to say, you mario mains need to stick with one thing. Half the time you guys say you'll be at point blank range fighting Marth and cg'ing him, then the other half you say you're going to be a good distance away using F.L.U.D.D. and fireball spam. I'm not saying both won't happen, but when we're talking about spacing in a SINGLE situation. Marth is going to try and keep Mario at a a specific range. We've made that clear. We're saying that Marth is good at keeping Mario at that range in the sense that he can keep Mario out. You say you'll use things like fireballs and F.L.U.D.D. to get in. We say you can't use it from that close up. Then you say that you're far enough so that it will work.

Marth is trying to keep you not too far, not too close. He's not just going to try and give you time to set up your F.L.U.D.D. strategy. And if you're so far away, spamming fireballs from a distance won't do much since you can't follow it up if you're far away enough that you can't get punished for it but close enough to follow up.

Look, Mario WILL get into Marth's space. It'll happen eventually and he'll rack up some damage. The point is that it will happen very few times against a competent Marth because he CAN counter Mario's best strategies for getting in. Mario doesn't have some magical way that will almost always work to get in as long as he doesn't mess it up. Marth has a great way of keeping Mario out IF he doesn't mess it up.

Not only that, but Marth isn't completely useless when Mario gets in range. Just because Mario gets in doesn't mean he just automatically gets free damage. Marth still has DS to reset the situation, grab, or simply just retreat and give up some of the stage while aerial'ing behind him to prevent Mario from following with fireball/an aerial, etc. Sure Mario can counter those, but he still has to deal with them.

Anyways, not to spur more useless arguments over the same things but I think 65:35 is pretty fair. 60:40 doesn't mean a large advantage. It means one character can abuse a few things to gain an advantage. It doesn't mean you get completely owned. 65:35 means that there is a distinct advantage that can be abused. I think that's generally how I've seen it portrayed by the community as a whole.

P.S. I'm pretty scrub so ignore me if you don't like what I'm saying.

 

[Matt07]

I'm looking forward to those videos Famous .

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mario does better up close but to say it's completely his game would be folly. He still has Marth's defensive options to contend with.

Thing is Marth has better options generally. That's what having an advantage means.

Marth doesn't need to be flawless to keep Mario out. Just use moves with little lag and that control a good amount of space. Namely Fair and d-tilt. If Mario does something that leaves him open he will get punished badly with either a smash or a DB which is solid damage.

Both characters can put the other in a bad position, but Marth can do this more consistently.

The way Matador talks he makes this match sound almost even.

It's not.

Also, match-ups should be in intervals of five. Cuz it looks better that way. Duh.

Basically Marth can play a little more braindead in this match-up then Mario can.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Only a little more braindead, though. That's why it's 60:40.

 

[Matt07]

I think this is the most discussed match-up ratio I've ever seen. Ever.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I really don't care about the ratio too much. I care more about making the match sound like something it isn't. It's not a blowout but it isn't close to even either.

 

[:mad:]

How many pages did this actually last? I think it'll keep going, since none of us really agree. We do know it's either 60:40, or 65:35.

 

[Famous]

60-40...This conversation lasted for a while...

Vids are almost done btw...Also, me and Boss discovered something crazy when Mario gets caped near the edge...It looks like cape tele but it's different...Instead of him grabbing the edge backwards, he appears behind you instead!

When I saw this I was shocked for a moment...then Boss forward threw me offstage and spiked me, lol....

 

[KirinBlaze]

60-40...This conversation lasted for a while...

Vids are almost done btw...Also, me and Boss discovered something crazy when Mario gets caped near the edge...It looks like cape tele but it's different...Instead of him grabbing the edge backwards, he appears behind you instead!

When I saw this I was shocked for a moment...then Boss forward threw me offstage and spiked me, lol....

I did that to someone a while back. I think I still have the video.

 

[Matador]

Okay, so let's take a step back.

Marth's playing aggressive this match, meaning he'll be hovering right outside Mario's range but close enough to still hit him and remain safe.

Mario on the other hand, is grounded and attempting to find a way inside through Marth's flurry of Fairs and Dtilts. Because Marth is efficiently keeping Mario from touching him while pressuring at the same time. This is where fireballs and Fludd aren't practical options? This is why this matchup warrants 65:35? Is there anything I'm missing before I go on?

 

[Steel]

He isn't necessarily always grounded since he may be spacing bairs, but that's pretty much it yep.

 

[hippiedude92]

dayummm marth mains came in here and rapedd

 

[Matador]

He isn't necessarily always grounded since he may be spacing bairs, but that's pretty much it yep.

Exactly. Mario's not going to keep the match where he's under Marth's control the entire time. If Marth is right on top of him, he can use OOS options, he can upB before the Fair hits, he could pivot a cape, or he could retreat with fireballs if all else fails, then come back in if you jump over/shield/or get hit by one of them. Marth is playing the aggressor, Mario is playing defensively. We're assuming that Mario's options are to wait and see if Marth happens to slip up. Well...essentially that's what playing defensively is, and is only bulletproof if the Marth is on top of an opponent that has no options.

Mario has a few that work, and a few that are rather gutsy if the situation calls for it. Once inside, Mario can combo and kill/gimp Marth like the best of them, with a long range Fsmash that can make you second-guess that Fair approach.

That's only if the Marth is playing this way. Apparently this is the "right" way to fight Mario and the only reason players like Kadaj and PD lose to players like Kirin and Famous from time to time is that no Marths are doing it. That only means that if the Marth ISN'T playing this way, Mario has more than a fighting chance.

 

[Famous]

Lol, hence why I walk alot when playing aggressive people...It's way more easier to notice what your opponent is doing...

Also, Marths tend to be less aggressive when you rack there damage up...I just sit there and watch them make a wall of Fairs...without approaching.

[BOSS] Marth never approaches..They just spam Fairs and expect them to hit...
[NEO] N!gga, we don't approach because your a$$ keeps powershielding our ****...
[BOSS&FAMUS] Lolz

 

[Steel]

Exactly. Mario is forced to resort to shielding, retreating/running away, and overall hoping Marth makes a mistake. Mario has to work wayyy harder than Marth does in this match. I think we're finally on the same page, we just have different perspectives on the ratio.

You guys mostly don't want it as 65:35 because MK is listed as 65:35, correct? At one point Marth boards had MK listed at 40:60 and same with Snake. Some people complained that 40:60 couldn't be right for Snake because MK was the same ratio. Well, you have to realize both characters have completely different reasons for making the ratio how it is. I'd recommend maybe changing your MK ratio, but I don't know enough about the match to say anything.

I don't know how Kadaj does v Famous, but I'm pretty sure NEO wins a whole lot vs him. Kadaj has played too defensively in the past and would back up too much, giving his opponent space to do stuff (I think hes working on fixing this problem). I'd say if you play a defensive Marth that does allow Mario space it's 60:40, though I feel an aggressive Marth who limits your options and corners you would have to be 65:35.

also@ famous, don't take what NEO says too literally XD

 

[Famous]

I think he was half drunk at the time, lol...

He probably does beat boss from time to time, not saying that he doesn't...I also keep forgetting that Boss uses Luigi on him in tourney, lol

Kadaj has to get better at reading people...Our matches go back and fourth Mario Vs Marth

He doesn't really play defensively, it's just that he goes for certain moves that are relatively broadcasted by the way he approaches you...Idk, it might just be me..I catch on pretty fast to a person playstlye. On top of that we play eachother way too much.

 

[Matador]

Exactly. Mario is forced to resort to shielding, retreating/running away, and overall hoping Marth makes a mistake. Mario has to work wayyy harder than Marth does in this match. I think we're finally on the same page, we just have different perspectives on the ratio.

Waaaay harder isn't 60:40?

Plus, this is Brawl. This game thrives off camping and defensive play. Though Marth being played the way you describe is, in a way, playing offensively and defensively at the same time, you still have the inherent flaws of aggressive play. The entire time, we're both looking for an opening. You're trying to hit by laying on thick pressure while keeping spaced, and we're trying not to take damage and punishing powershielded attacks, retreating fireballs, and generally taking advantage of the fact that before and after attacks, you are vulnerable. The only thing that keeps this strategy from being self-destructive is the fact that Marth is very good at protecting himself while playing offensively and has upB in his back pocket if needed.

You guys mostly don't want it as 65:35 because MK is listed as 65:35, correct? At one point Marth boards had MK listed at 40:60 and same with Snake. Some people complained that 40:60 couldn't be right for Snake because MK was the same ratio. Well, you have to realize both characters have completely different reasons for making the ratio how it is. I'd recommend maybe changing your MK ratio, but I don't know enough about the match to say anything.

Much simpler than that. We don't want Marth that high because Mario's options vs MK offstage are much more limited. He can't gimp and is easily gimped himself. Marth doesn't present these problems to the degree than MK does, and he still remains just as dangerous aerially and grounded.

I don't know how Kadaj does v Famous, but I'm pretty sure NEO wins a whole lot vs him. Kadaj has played too defensively in the past and would back up too much, giving his opponent space to do stuff (I think hes working on fixing this problem). I'd say if you play a defensive Marth that does allow Mario space it's 60:40, though I feel an aggressive Marth who limits your options and corners you would have to be 65:35.

also@ famous, don't take what NEO says too literally XD

Famous told us that Boss does well vs Neo. Hell, Boss told me himself. Neo is the very embodiment of this playstyle you're describing with the exception of pivot grabs.

Edit: lolWeegee. I imagine he does better vs Marth too doesn't he.

 

[bobson]

Marth is silly.

 

[Famous]

Luigi is supposed to do worser in this matchup, lol...It doesn't seem that way though...

 

[:mad:]

Win him having even less range, I can see why.

 

[Steel]

I personally think our Luigi match up is wrong, but w/e.

And NEO's play style is what i'm describing, plus pivot grabs. He basically brought that into Marth's metagame.

And the only reason Marth can play aggressive is because he can do so safely with his sword. Because of his sword he's one of the best attackers in the game. Camping isn't effective with Marth except vs a few certain characters.

I also wasn't talking about Boss in my previous post, but as far as I know he uses luigi vs NEO.

Also, MK is better on-stage than Marth is. I don't see how you can make it a 5 point difference just because of the off-stage game when on-stage matters way more.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

I think i've figured it out finally.

Marth mains in general, suck. Except for a chosen few. Reason why the matchup seems so easy for Mario.


~I'm just shooting off. Don't get offended.



But uh. Luigi has more KO power. So naturally he'll do slightly better.

 

[Steel]

You pretty much nailed it.

 

[Matador]

I also wasn't talking about Boss in my previous post, but as far as I know he uses luigi vs NEO.

Also, MK is better on-stage than Marth is. I don't see how you can make it a 5 point difference just because of the off-stage game when on-stage matters way more.

Onstage matters more, but that's why it's ONLY 5 points.

Understand. Mario offstage vs MK might as well be Ganon offstage vs MK. It's a guessing game with Mario needing to be right WAY more than MK needs to be. The only real weapon you have is upB's invincibility frames. Everything else just isn't safe to try.

Not only is Marth not as dangerous when you're offstage, but he's also vulnerable to gimps. If Mario can't gimp, he has to rely on Usmash and Fsmash for kills. Fsmash requires a setup or prediction. It's best not to NEED it. Usmash has to be kept unstale to kill both at 120%. It's an excellent tool vs both Marth AND MK when used normally since it has pretty good priority, so you see the problem. Mario's killing is about average. Gimping helps to pick up the slack.

All of that aside, MK is just as problematic as Marth onstage. The only difference is his KO power, damage, and the fact that he doesn't have Marth's vulnerability from below. You don't believe that warrants a 5 point difference?