The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Emblem Lord]

Stop slinging insults.

It's unwarranted.

 

[KirinBlaze]

How about Toon Link next? I looooove playing that match-up with Hyrulian_Royalty.

 

[Matador]

We don't need them for discussion. Just take quotes from the first Marth vs Mario discussion if we run into a rut. You'll find everything they think of the matchup there.

We can still go over important parts with just us here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In all seriousness, everyone needs to calm the **** down.

Let's discuss the match intelligently.

What are Mario's tools and advantages?

What are Marth's?

 

[Steel]

i wasn't going to respond anymore at first but meh..

lol, unbiased? Your entire stance on the Mario vs Marth discussion was "we can Fair it though".

We can fireball approach and upB OOS to stop your approach. "Well we can fair though them every single ****in time and space Fair so you'll never land your upB...then punish with Fair".

What if we land an Fsmash, Marth is light so... "Well Fair stops us from dying until about 140% from your Fsmash. You can't even really land it since Fair is so long".

What if we try to gimp you? "We can fair you before you get to us".

How are you killing? Everyone knows Marth has no killmoves safe on shield. "We can tip a Fair."

Not responding to this, you and I both know where was more to it than "fair." Most of that was done by one person and it was quite a few months ago.

The fact that you even need to ASK this question just augments my position; you run Marth boards matchup discussion but don't know how to discuss. Of course, I can't blame you for this, because this definitely isn't the first time I've had to explain why theorycraft fails, so let me break it down to you.

Matchup discussion is about OPTIONS. What one character can do to the other without it wandering into statements like "well a good Marth wouldn't Fair if he thought you would upB close enough to hit him". Stuff like that KILLS the discussion and leaves everything to theory. You say what beats what. How they'll be killing, if they can reliably gimp, who wins aerially, grounded, which stages to use, and matchup specific traits. So what one character CAN do to the other, not what they WOULD do if the match were going in slow motion and you had a theoretical counter attack for every move we make.

The reason there are two character boards normally involved in discussion is that you do not know our character and we do not know yours. We went into your boards open minded. You gave us your rundown. We said what was wrong with it. You guys told us WE were wrong and shoved 65:35 down our throat. I finally said what you guys wanted to hear and agreed with that ratio simply because I was sick of discussing with the Marth boards.

Even the Ness boards didn't piss me off to the point where I abandoned my standpoint just to get the hell away from PKNintendo the die-hard Ness zealots; we saved it for another day.

So you decide match ups purely by how you do vs Marths? Awesome, convincing argument you have there. Especially considering the amount of good Marth players is VERY low. There may even be a better amount of good Mario players. Again, how else do you determine a match up without theory?

We didn't just say, "you're wrong." We told you WHY you were wrong in detail.

Your second chart looks nearly identical to the first. Your point is moot.

I don't understand how you think just because most of Marth's match ups are advantaged that it's wrong. Marth is a high tier character, what's the problem? He wins these matches. BOTH BOARDS AGREE.

Efficient =/= fast. If you got your ratio first, that DOES NOT mean it is accurate. You guys held two and three discussions a day at the same time. Do you want to know why no other board tried to go that fast? Here's a hint. I assure you it's not because of some disillusioned idea that the Marth boards are magically BETTER than every other board on SWF.

They don't do it because it's stupid. Sometimes important views on the matchup don't present themselves until much later. Because sometimes video evidence is necessary and testing must be done. Because sometimes there's disagreement that isn't settled by "we're right, you're wrong. We can Fair it." There are often times where the matchup DOES take one day, but even then, you don't split the attention between 3 different boards at a time or LIMIT each discussion to just that one day. If there's more to be done, more to be discussed, still some dissension between boards, there's more to be done.

I've read your discussions. That is, if you want to call it that. 50% of them started out with one of the Marths suggesting a number, then everyone rallying together to annoy the ever-loving crap out of the other board until they agreed.

First off, as far as I remember we only ran two discussions ONE time in a day. Mostly because they were low tier, straight forward match ups that did not require much discussion. This is because what worked in previous matches applies in other matches.

However, just because it's a low tier character doesn't mean we keep it short. For example, the Link discussion went very in depth and we settled on 60:40 for Marth. LINK IS A TERRIBLE CHARACTER. But his tools allow him to compete in this match.

And I like how you call convincing the other board through fighting game logic as "annoying them."

Also, each thread can be posted in even after we've declared a ratio for it. We've had three discussions go on at the same time before.

Your idea of elitism is telling the other mains what their character can and can't do and fortifying your ideas with theory. YOU don't know Link. YOU don't know Bowser. YOU don't know Mario. That's what the other board is there for.

Yep, and so we invite them to discuss.

Name calling? Is that REALLY what you're being reduced to? I must have hit a nerve.

I apologize for that, but I suppose I felt insulted throughout this whole thing.

Okay, so right here you're writing off the leader of the forty thieves AND the most prominent voice in most of the discussions as "well, we weren't part of that." Fair enough.

And maybe you DO have the advantage on those characters. Maybe you don't. You completely missed my point. I read some of your discussions (they were like 2 pages each) and every single one was the same. You never really "discussed" anything. Ever.

You said yourself that our match up boards were identical, did you not? Emblem Lord also highly took part in our new match up discussions. Metagame changes. His thread was made very early in the metagame, why you would even take that into consideration is laughable.

Edit:Look at this! This is a perfect little example of how your discussions are run. "I'm right, you're wrong, we're done. Next??" It's so sad that you are the only ones that don't see it.

I said that to add some humor.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also...looking back on the thread. It seems you guys did trash the Marth boards...for pretty much no reason. Why did you do this? The Marth boards didn't attack you. You might not like their attitude, but to say their info wouldn't be valued in the discussion is folly.

 

[:mad:]

Our apoligies for trashing you Marths, but Steel didn't help by saying "We're better than you are" every once in awhile.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Steel was very aggressive. Still...you guys blatantly said things. like lol there is no point in talking to them and blah blah before any Marths even posted.

Seriously guys. This is counter productive and childish.

If you are going to trash another board wait until AFTER you prove them wrong. lolol.

Now, let's get down to business. Now if we look at Marth and Mario's options....then yeah..Marth does have an advantage. Overall he has the better ground game and better air game. He also has the range advantage, with better speed. I dunno about aerial speed. Someone will have to check.

Mario has some things going for him though. Fludd is good for offsetting Marth's momentum and gimping recoveries. I seem to remember that if Fludd hits during an attack it will add extra recovery frames to the move? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Mario also has a fireball. Now, let's be real. Mario's fireball isn't hard to deal with BUT, it's still a good tool to have and allows Mario a way to control the match to some degree.

On the stage, I think we can agree though that Marth takes the win. Mario can't really compete that well. He has f-smash, but it's average in speed and can't compete that well with Marth's moves and Marth is the better punisher with DB.

Mario does have gimps though and can make life difficult for Marth if he knocks him off the stage.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Other people's prior experiences, presumably from being at your boards discussing our matchup. I don't know, I wasn't here at that time.

Anyway, I can't really put much input on this matchup, I don't know it well enough. Eh.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Marth boards are most productive, but then again, Marth mains account for 40% of the SWF population.
There's maybe 10 of us here.

Yeah but 98% of Marth mains here suck or never post. There are like 15-20 people who contribute often.

 

[:mad:]

Steel was very aggressive. Still...you guys blatantly said things. like lol there is no point in talking to them and blah blah before any Marths even posted.

Seriously guys. This is counter productive and childish.

If you are going to trash another board wait until AFTER you prove them wrong. lolol.

Something snapped and Matador just went off. Half of the argument wasn't even character related, just personal beef with one another.

We... can't prove you guys wrong omggg. ;_____;
Serious discussion starts now since we're all terrible people.

Other people's prior experiences, presumably from being at your boards discussing our matchup. I don't know, I wasn't here at that time.

Anyway, I can't really put much input on this matchup, I don't know it well enough. Eh.

Yeah, the Marths I do play are extremely bad. I can't really say much, other than what makes Mario not get completely destroyed.

 

[Famous]

There is so much contradiction in this thread...I don't even feel like quoting it all...I think I'm going to pull a Boss..I'll let action speak louder.


[EDIT]I only get to play the best Marths around this area...It's always 50/50 when i play them

 

[Steel]

I'm still up for an actual discussion if you guys want to start it over.

Why do you think it's 40 60? What does Mario do that makes this a match that he can definitely win?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also making gay jokes about Marth isn't a good way to start things off when you want to invite a board later.

I mean I can make jokes too. How many times is Mario can save the brainless Peach after being abducted from Bowser for the one billionth time before he gets any? Dude is getting played out. Hard. Hell, Bowser is probably hittin it and the whole kidnapping thing is probably just a front and Mario "saving" her is just cuz Bowser is tired from tearing the **** up all night so Peach needs a ride home.

Now see..that wasn't very nice was it?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

We can gimp you with our cape.

For example, at my first tournament, I played TWO Marths, I really, really sucked then. My opponents were far better than me (lost each time), but I still got a gimp on them, both times.

Yeah, so the cape gimps you, and that's ALL I can contribute here, I think both times I was doing the cape while holding on the ledge, though, so the Marth was trying to Up-B stage spike me to my doom, but I got the cape, good times.

I wish I was that scrubby again.

 

[:mad:]

Alright, that sounds good.

Some of us are convinced it's 60:40. Marth isn't very strong from above, so Mario has the advantage from below, the same can be said about Marth from below. Half of the match is just gonna be Bair spacing from Mario, and Fair spacing with Marth. Having ranged aerials that beat Mario's, that makes it hard enough. It eliminates most of Mario's game, and automatically puts Marth at an advantage. FIHL can make it stressful for Marth, and even help gimp him.

65:35 would mean Marth is just as difficult as Meta Knight. Meta Knight's a possible 70:30, because he just won't be caped.

Edit: Gay jokes toward Marth mean nothing. lol. He's clearly a swordsman.

 

[Steel]

Yeah, Mario can just hang on the ledge and wait for the up b and side b gimp him. Course Marth can stall your cape timing with his forward b, so it becomes a pure guessing game. Marth also has tricks of his own off stage vs Mario.

But onstage matters way more anyway.

@Straked

Just because MK is 65:35 doesn't mean Marth can't be. They have this ratio for different reasons. Diddy or Falco debatably does better vs MK than he does vs Marth for example.

 

[:mad:]

Meta Knight's only so high because he has even more advantages than Marth. Marth is probably 65:35, if not more than that, but we just don't see it that way.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Onstage, we can try to find ways into your range with fireballs, SH Bairs, or mabye the occasional Dair.

You can do all your usual spacing stuff, Jabs (I think, I don't know much about Marth) Dtilt, and Fair and all that spacing stuff you do, to keep us out.

Pretty much, you want to keep us out, so we can do minimal damage to you, we want to get in, so we'll probably try to bait a shield with fireballs (or that's what I'd do).

You're playing defensive, so you auto-win. However, if you try to approach with your Fairs, we have our OoS Up-B, Usmash, Nair and all that. I realize you also have an OoS Up-B to make our approach harder (especially if we go for the *baiting your shield* method, in which case the Up-B would have to be predicted)

So, it's pretty much whoever plays smarter and more defensive wins, and either side can do that. Marth has his spacing, Mario has his camping.

60:40 Marth's favor.

 

[:mad:]

Marth has one of the worst jabs in the game. lolol.
I'm starting to believe it's 65:35, after hearing some of this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth has the advantage, then understand that Mario has to work harder.

He only does well in specific situations. It is Marth who dictates the pace of the match.

This is what it means to have an advantage.

MK beats Mario for the same reasons any character beats another. Superior tools that beat the tools of the other character. That's what a match-up is. Tools.

 

[Steel]

Onstage, we can try to find ways into your range with fireballs, SH Bairs, or mabye the occasional Dair.

You can do all your usual spacing stuff, Jabs (I think, I don't know much about Marth) Dtilt, and Fair and all that spacing stuff you do, to keep us out.

Pretty much, you want to keep us out, so we can do minimal damage to you, we want to get in, so we'll probably try to bait a shield with fireballs (or that's what I'd do).

You're playing defensive, so you auto-win. However, if you try to approach with your Fairs, we have our OoS Up-B, Usmash, Nair and all that. I realize you also have an OoS Up-B to make our approach harder (especially if we go for the *baiting your shield* method, in which case the Up-B would have to be predicted)

So, it's pretty much whoever plays smarter and more defensive wins, and either side can do that. Marth has his spacing, Mario has his camping.

60:40 Marth's favor.

We aren't playing defensive though. The current "good" Marths have shifted their metagame to largely offensive which SEVERELY limits most characters' options such as Mario. I can understand how you can bait reactions with fireballs vs defensive Marths.. but fireballs won't work vs a Marth who attacks and doesn't allow you space.

Does your up b hit a fully spaced fair btw?>_>

60:40 would be understandable if the Marth is trying to camp you, but again if he's in your face with the tip of his sword I can't see you having too many options.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Wow. I go out for the night and this is what I come back too? Don't flame, you guys. That goes for both the Mario mains and the Marth mains.

In any case, I believe that this match-up is 60:40 Marth. He doesn't completely shut out Mario, but its still a hard match-up. FIHL does good against Marth's forward air and if somebody really really really really good with the FLUDD came around, Marth's forward air could potentially be shut down completely as an approach method in this match-up.

It's doubtful, though.

In any case, Marth has better range, kill power, priority... he's just better than Mario. Does that give him an advantage like 65:35? Er... he's no Meta-Knight. But he definitely has the advantage.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I'm pretty sure that if we aim the Up-B laterally (since we can change the direction) it can hit a fully spaced Fair.

Lemme go test this real quick, though.

EDIT: Okay, my little brother is incompetent and his shield gets too low and he gets hit anyway, so I can't test.

 

[Steel]

You aren't testing alone.. right? Since Marth would be DI'ng slightly backwards I can't see it hitting unless you power shield.

 

[clowsui]

XeroXen we'll play at the next MW circuit and record
My Marth is not REALLY good at all but I guess I can try the style Steel is talking about, I need to work on it for tournies anyways

 

[Matador]

Something snapped and Matador just went off. Half of the argument wasn't even character related, just personal beef with one another.

We... can't prove you guys wrong omggg. ;_____;
Serious discussion starts now since we're all terrible people.

My tirade wasn't baseless. That's something I'll put away for later for the sake of the discussion.

Now, let's get down to business. Now if we look at Marth and Mario's options....then yeah..Marth does have an advantage. Overall he has the better ground game and better air game. He also has the range advantage, with better speed. I dunno about aerial speed. Someone will have to check.

Mario has some things going for him though. Fludd is good for offsetting Marth's momentum and gimping recoveries. I seem to remember that if Fludd hits during an attack it will add extra recovery frames to the move? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Mario also has a fireball. Now, let's be real. Mario's fireball isn't hard to deal with BUT, it's still a good tool to have and allows Mario a way to control the match to some degree.

On the stage, I think we can agree though that Marth takes the win. Mario can't really compete that well. He has f-smash, but it's average in speed and can't compete that well with Marth's moves and Marth is the better punisher with DB.

Mario does have gimps though and can make life difficult for Marth if he knocks him off the stage.

Fair enough. Aerially, I'll give Marth the nod since he's just as fast in attackspeed and wins in priority.

Grounded, however, I'd give Mario the nod mainly because of jab. Once he's inside, which will be done by either fireball approach, an OOS option, or Fludding as you said, jab leads to a few followups. Basically, Mario is very dangerous against Marth when inside because he combos from below and has quite a few moves to take him there. Jab -> grab ->Dthrow, Utilt, Usmash (which has priority enough to clash with Marth's Fsmash), and Dair. From there, Marth's options are limited until he can escape.

Further, Mario's Dsmash is great at getting a little space when Marth's ontop of him because of its speed and knockback. It also sets him up for edgeguarding or gets him on the ledge. Fsmash should only ever be used for the KO or if it links directly into a juggle. It's too slow to be relied on as an option for keeping Marth away.

About Marth's DB, I've found that with DI Mario can upB out of it. I don't know the percentages or whether or not that it's a certain DB combination that Mario can upB out of, but I know it's possible often enough to be addressed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jab to grab stuff is never guaranteed.

Mario has to get inside which is the problem. Marth is faster with better mobility. Mario needs to take risks to get inside. Hence the disadvantage.

On the ground Mario attacks faster, but he has problems getting in that zone where Marth would be uncomfortable.

D-smash is nice but Marth's standard stuff outranges it AND I think it's faster too. what's the frame data on Mario's d-smash?

Jab isn't enough. It has the speed, but it doesn't have the range. And Mario himslef lacks the traits to put himself in a position where he can consistently put it to use unless Marth himself screws up alot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ohsnap, Emblem Lord came back JUST FOR THIS?

What got into you man? Long time no see!

Anyhow I think it's 6/4 Marth. No worse. Like...maybe 2-3% closer than that perhaps. All in all it isn't a blowout in Marth's favor, and it's not close to being Mario's worst matchup.

In short, Mario has out of shield options, F-smash, and N-air edgeguard which when all used right will give Marth a hard time.

Other things:
Mario's D-smash is the exact same frame as Marth's (frame 5).

Mario's F-smash has more range than Marth's (stutterstepped or do a charge release barely inside Marth's tipper range and he will whiff and you will outdistance him).

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

You aren't testing alone.. right? Since Marth would be DI'ng slightly backwards I can't see it hitting unless you power shield.

I think that even with Marth's DI, a proper Up-B OoS would hit, Super Jump Punch's disjointed hitboxes are so lol.

I can't test it, because I have nobody competent to do so with.

EDIT: Mario's dsmash is 5 frames, as fast as MK's and Marth's apparantly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The insurmountable wealth of ignorance in this thread summoned me.

I had to squash it.

I can't see it as 6/4 because 6/4 implies that the only reason one character wins over the other is due to a few small advantages. This...isn't small.

Marth takes away **** near 90% of Mario's game. He is reduced to shielding everything Marth does trying to punish him or get him in the air or put him in a situation where he can try to get a gimp or alot of damage.

He basically has to wait till Marth screws up which implies that Mario really has no safe attack options and most rely on his universal options of shielding, dodging, running, etc.

He really has no way to attack safely without eating something from Marth since he isn't as safe on shield as Marth. He also can't compete with Marth's range/zoning.

 

[Inferno3044]

Ok, I'm gonna be honest right now and I don't care how anyone, Marth or Mario mains, get pissed at me. YOU GUYS NEED TO STOP ****ING ARGUING AND TALK ABOUT THE DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF BASHING PEOPLE!! At least half of the Marth vs. Mario sounds like (not sure whether intended) either "Marth ***** Mario. Give it up" or "Mario can stand his ground against Marth. We can take you guys down np" I will admit that I don't believe this is 50:50 and that I think it's Marth's advantage, but Marth does not **** Mario like he did in melee.

Also some things I wanna add about matchups in general:
1. People rarely use their characters' faults which has to be put in for a discussion and how they can get past the problem (eg. Mario's crap range) Also every little thing can help
2. Matchups do not mean everything. Anything can happen in a battle. I don't care if this ends up being 90:10 Marth, it doesn't mean Mario can't win. If someone makes ONE screw up, that can be game.
3. We should be accepting of what the other people say about their own character's metagame. I say this mainly for how to counteract moves and actions. Also let's be accepting and able to admit that our characters aren't perfect. If MK isn't perfect (and no he isnt) then theres no way Mario and Marth are perfect.

This might not be what was meant, but this is what I get from this. I apologize if I offended anybody.

Edit: This note was meant to be sent much earlier, but I forgot to send it.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lmao Famous you know marth v mario is NOT 50/50

if anything i'd say 70:30
why?

In the majority of situations marth almost always has the better options due to the range speed and effectiveness of his attack.

although marth is susceptible to being caped into pretty bad positions it will only work but a few times before the player catches on. Mario's ability to bair camp helps him out pretty well in this match up.

if played correctly mario's ground game shouldnt be too much of problem in this fight, and his fireball camping is just a small aid in helping mario out.

i dont feel like writing out an entire guide on this match up so i'll just leave it at that

btw i prob have more exp. in this match up then the next 3 marth players put together lol


edit: if mario f smashed marth can tipper f smash OoS or d smash

 

[SkylerOcon]

The insurmountable wealth of ignorance in this thread summoned me.

I had to squash it.

I can't see it as 6/4 because 6/4 implies that the only reason one character wins over the other is due to a few small advantages. This...isn't small.

Marth takes away **** near 90% of Mario's game. He is reduced to shielding everything Marth does trying to punish him or get him in the air or put him in a situation where he can try to get a gimp or alot of damage.

He basically has to wait till Marth screws up which implies that Mario really has no safe attack options and most rely on his universal options of shielding, dodging, running, etc.

He really has no way to attack safely without eating something from Marth since he isn't as safe on shield as Marth. He also can't compete with Marth's range/zoning.

I disagree. Marth doesn't take away 90% of Mario's game. Mario has fireballs to distract with in this match-up (don't be surprised if you barely hit with these at all though -- nearly everything Marth has will outprioritize fireballs). We have superior combo/juggle abilities. Your recovery is easily gimpable.

Of course, you have more range, kill power, and priority. The last of which isn't that big of a deal. Range and kill power threatens Mario, but up-angled Fsmash makes the gap between Marth's tippered F-smash and Mario's F-smash much more managable.

Marth has a slight advantage in kill power and a definite advantage in range. It doesn't completely shut Mario out at all.

 

[:mad:]

The insurmountable wealth of ignorance in this thread summoned me.

I had to squash it.

I can't see it as 6/4 because 6/4 implies that the only reason one character wins over the other is due to a few small advantages. This...isn't small.

Marth takes away **** near 90% of Mario's game. He is reduced to shielding everything Marth does trying to punish him or get him in the air or put him in a situation where he can try to get a gimp or alot of damage.

He basically has to wait till Marth screws up which implies that Mario really has no safe attack options and most rely on his universal options of shielding, dodging, running, etc.

He really has no way to attack safely without eating something from Marth since he isn't as safe on shield as Marth. He also can't compete with Marth's range/zoning.

That alone gives me enough reason to believe 65:35/70:30. No wonder you guys are so productive.
You get right to it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ew. Priority.

Never mention such things. Priority doesn't even really exist except on certain moves.

I said he NEARLY takes away 90% of his game. Anyway, it was just an expression really. Basically Marth really limits Mario.

Mario is also gimpable and his recovery is fairly easy to harass is it not. This is a two way street as far as edgeguarding is concerned. Mario is still better at it though.

The key thing to remember is not what Mario is capable of. But how consistently can he DO what he is capable of. HOW does he get in RELIABLY?

 

[Matador]

Jab to grab stuff is never guaranteed.

Mario has to get inside which is the problem. Marth is faster with better mobility. Mario needs to take risks to get inside. Hence the disadvantage.

On the ground Mario attacks faster, but he has problems getting in that zone where Marth would be uncomfortable.

D-smash is nice but Marth's standard stuff outranges it AND I think it's faster too. what's the frame data on Mario's d-smash?

Jab isn't enough. It has the speed, but it doesn't have the range. And Mario himslef lacks the traits to put himself in a position where he can consistently put it to use unless Marth himself screws up alot.

Jab is a setup. From there, we could jab -> grab if you shield, jab -> pivot grab if you spotdodge, jab -> Dair if you try to jump or spotdodge, you get the idea. It's not a combo, but it might as well be as reliable.

The range on both is also less than Marth's stuffs, which is why most of the fight is spent getting inside. Once inside though, Mario controls the fight just as much as Marth does when he's outside.

 

[SkylerOcon]

The key thing to remember is not what Mario is capable of. But how consistently can he DO what he is capable of. HOW does he get in RELIABLY?

Predicting. FIHL-ing your Forward air approach into and up smash. This will lead into Up tilts, up airs, grabs... you name it. Other than the FIHL, Mario can spam fireballs, which works on pretty much everybody.

 

[Emblem Lord]

EXACTLY.

A Mario player CANNOT rely on Mario as a CHARACTER to win this match.

A Marth player can fight Mario and win. He doesn't need to fight the player. He doesn't need to know his habits. He can just space and zone and punish and win a good chunk of the time.

Mario cannot do this.

Mario has to fight the player. How will he move? How will he attack? Will he do this? Or will he do that? You need to get inside his head to win. When you can't fight the character at all...well then...that's a good indicator that the match isn't that close.

Fireballs won't work that well honestly. Nice to have. But Marth has answers.

 

[Steel]

Jab is a setup. From there, we could jab -> grab if you shield, jab -> pivot grab if you spotdodge, jab -> Dair if you try to jump or spotdodge, you get the idea. It's not a combo, but it might as well be as reliable.

The range on both is also less than Marth's stuffs, which is why most of the fight is spent getting inside. Once inside though, Mario controls the fight just as much as Marth does when he's outside.

Marth's dtilt is a better "set up" than your jab is and is far more reliable in this match because we don't have to worry about getting past anything before we do it.

If you spot dodge you eat dancing blade, if you roll you eat dancing blade, if you shield we can apply safe shield pressure. All you can do is run away from it.

@Skyler

You can't really bring "predicting" into a match up debate.. any sort of mindgames are intangible. And as described before, fireballs don't have as much of an impact in this match. And if that is your argument, then basically that's all Mario has going for him -_-