The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[_Kadaj_]

fireball camping doesnt work well against marth.

marth can fair and jab while successfully keeping mario out if he needs to do so depending on the distance from mario

 

[SkylerOcon]

Of course Mario has to fight the player. He has an obvious disadvantage in this match-up. The question here is, though, does this make it 60:40 or 65:35?

Really, Marth just doesn't beat Mario that badly. He beats him, sure, but not as much as you guys are saying.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

...Now, Marths... WHY doesn't fireball camping work.

You all just kinda scoot it off without explaining why it wouldn't work, and my clueless arse is left hanging. I kinda wanna know the matchup before I get put in a tournament match against a Marth (or at least know it in theory). Plus, I want an explanation for why it doesn't work.

I do realize you have one of the better OoS options in the game, so the excuse "We can PS them" works a biiiiiit more for you guys.

 

[_Kadaj_]

in reality he kinda does skyler

there isnt too much of anything mario can do to shut down marths approaches


some1 mentioned fihl but that to also takes time to charge

edit; read my post and you'll see why it doesnt work

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think we can all agree that 55/45 is out of the question. That implies almost even. No way.

I agree that 70/30 is insane.

So it's between 60/40 and 65/35.

Anyway, now that you guys know what Marth can do, you need to talk about how you will deal with him.

Options vs fireballs - Swat them with jab or f-tilt, Fair through them while still using the fair to zone so you don't lose momentum, universal options such as shielding, rolling, etc.

 

[Matador]

Mario is also gimpable and his recovery is fairly easy to harass is it not. This is a two way street as far as edgeguarding is concerned. Mario is still better at it though.

Watch 2:40 to 2:45. This is something I do from time to time vs Marth, MK and Shiek in particular since they have to come to close to Mario to gimp him AND are light enough to be pushed back onstage. We also have fireballs and cape to stall while we're offstage. If you know the extent to which Marth's recovery will reach, you know where he won't go after you to edgeguard. Once you know that, just deter him from going that far to reach you.

Mario has quite a few options offstage to keep him from being gimped; most of which don't require him to be too close to the opponent to pull off. Marth seems much more vulnerable.

 

[_Kadaj_]

60/40 at best 70/30 at worst


i'll agree that at times it can be difficult to gimp mario, but by no means is it difficult to score the ko at the right %s

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...you basically elaborated on a point that I had already conceded. Still, it's good info though. This was directed at Matador.

 

[KirinBlaze]

in reality he kinda does skyler

there isnt too much of anything mario can do to shut down marths approaches


some1 mentioned fihl but that to also takes time to charge

edit; read my post and you'll see why it doesnt work

Mario's FLUDD does not have to be fully charged or even half charged for the FIHL to take effect of Marth's aerials. Yes it does need to be charged a bit but for it to be able to serve it's purpose it's not that long a charge time.

 

[Famous]

60:40, he's not mk...I'm basing it off the majority run of the mill Marth and Mario players...If a both players almost equal in skill level...


Kadaj, I base the 50:50 based off my performance and what I actually see...To be honest, I rarely lose to Marth regardless if he's good or bad...The only other Mario here is Boss....and you get the picture...I have a harder time with GaW...

Well that's it...I dont want to be apart of another discussion like this again...I'll just watch next time. Then I'll post videos throwing the matchup ratio out of the window...

 

[_Kadaj_]

i know that kirin but the less you have the smaller window you have to be able to punish marth due to him not being in the air as long

 

[SkylerOcon]

some1 mentioned fihl but that to also takes time to charge

I know Kirin already called you on this, but I'm just reposting the same thing to make a point out of it.

Please, please, please, please, PLEASE do not fall prey to the common misconception that Mario's FLUDD has to be fully charged to do FIHL.

 

[Matador]

There's no way it can be 65:35. MK is 65:35 because he completely beats Mario in nearly every way, can't be gimped, can barely be combo'd, has a much better recovery than Mario, all sorts of insane advantages.

Marth simply does not have this. The only problem I'm hearing is range, that Mario has to work to get in. That does not warrant 65:35 especially since Mario doesn't outrange anybody. Nobody here consistently loses to Marth regardless of who we play. It's not even, and 55:45 may be stretching it, 65:35 is too much. 60:40 is more accurate. He wins, but it's not a matchup he can sleep on.

 

[vato_break]

60:40 get caped

 

[_Kadaj_]

yeah guys it doesnt need to be charged, i should have clarified

lol famous thats because you play me all the time

 

[Matador]

lol famous thats because you play me all the time

*cough* 50:50 if you know it *cough*

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol def not

 

[Inferno3044]

gotta give Matador props for visualy showing a good example.

60/40 at best 70/30 at worst


i'll agree that at times it can be difficult to gimp mario, but by no means is it difficult to score the ko at the right %s

70:30 is D3 vs. Mario which is definitely harder. 65:35 is MK vs. Mario which is harder than Marth by MK's ability to gimp Mario much more effective than Marth can and MK i've been told has transcended priority (might be wrong). I say 60:40.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The insurmountable wealth of ignorance in this thread summoned me.

I had to squash it.

I can't see it as 6/4 because 6/4 implies that the only reason one character wins over the other is due to a few small advantages. This...isn't small.

Marth takes away **** near 90% of Mario's game. He is reduced to shielding everything Marth does trying to punish him or get him in the air or put him in a situation where he can try to get a gimp or alot of damage.

He basically has to wait till Marth screws up which implies that Mario really has no safe attack options and most rely on his universal options of shielding, dodging, running, etc.

He really has no way to attack safely without eating something from Marth since he isn't as safe on shield as Marth. He also can't compete with Marth's range/zoning.

Firstoff, tell me who isn't reduced to shielding and punishing vs Marth. =/

Also, if Marth does DB on Mario's shield, he can escape with Up-B.

Mario can dodge attacks with F-smash and punish due to his F-smash having a lot of range. It's not the safest thing on block, but it doesn't always have to be.

Marth's only two real advantages in this matchup are raw range on some damage dealers and the KO power of an uncommon tipper Smash attack. In terms of safety in general, the difference isn't particularly huge. Especially on KO moves. Mario can keep up perfectly fine in terms of actually landing KO moves.

 

[_Kadaj_]

just curious, wasnt this match up already labeled 60-40 before it was redone?

 

[Famous]

yeah guys it doesnt need to be charged, i should have clarified

lol famous thats because you play me all the time

True...And boss plays neo...and he seem to beat him in tourney almost everytime they play...There skill lvl is close to equal(I think) and Boss wins with Mario/Luigi...

I guess it's different taking some of the best players ratios rather than two normal players

Then again, if every Marth played like Azens then we wold be in trouble...

Lol, this discussion could go on forever...Let's just keep it 60/40 atm

 

[Matador]

It was down as 65:35. That's unadulterated ****. I agree, 60:40. It's just not that bad. I honestly can't explain why other than "it's not that hard to get inside his range" and "it's Mario's game once he's inside".

 

[_Kadaj_]

i know some grab combos on mario that are unadulturated ****

 

[HeroMystic]

No, it was always 65:35. Marios wanted it as 60:40 and the Marths wanted it as 30:70 with some oddballs wanting it as 80:20. *shrugs*

 

[Famous]

Fthrow-Fsmash at 0 isnt a combo...neither is ledge guarding with pivot grabs, lol...

 

[momochuu]

I'm glad to see this got back on topic. ;x

Flaming other character boards gets nothing done.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol whatever Rob

 

[Shaya]

Fthrow x2 to dair in theory should be possible on Mario.

14 frames of advantage (with 5fr to jump, 6 to dair) plus what are Mario's frame options other than air dodge (4 frames)?

Whilst it wouldn't be a guaranteed kill (I believe Mario's jump + up b together cover the distance drop, plus up b's priority...).

But due to Mario's weight, Marth's fthrow always has reasonably reliable set ups. Whilst Marth can zone efficiently with his aerials and dtilts, a Mario that has gotten close enough is suspectable to more than just an Up B. Marth getting a grab on Mario is often very rewarding.

Oh, and fthrow to fsmash is a combo on just about everybody. Unless they naturally travel too far away (Lucario for example).

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol its always rewarding grabbing mario shaya

btw he can airdodge after the 1st grab if you go for a second oneself

he was just trying to be funny shaya lol

 

[Shaya]

Hmm Mario does go too far for guaranteed fthrow to dair.

Fthrow to regrab is possible if he tries to air dodge, jump will let him escape though.

Actually, scratch that, fthrow to tipper dair is -just- possible. But its harder than grab release to spike on meta (lolololol).

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol so basically its a no go

 

[Eazy23]

shutup and watch teh old school sex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2IJGWGoljk&feature=channel_page

 

[Shaya]

Maybe "Hairing it" would work, but a normal fthrow to spike Spacies style is a no go.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm gonna do what I haven't done in a long time and make a serious post.

The insurmountable wealth of ignorance in this thread summoned me.

I had to squash it.

I can't see it as 6/4 because 6/4 implies that the only reason one character wins over the other is due to a few small advantages. This...isn't small

A 60:40 shows that there is a clear advantage but not enough to make it a walk-in-the-park.

When it comes to ratios, it's more than just "what options do we have" or "how much we shut down your character", but there's also the quality of your options and how much they impact the match-up.

You (the Marth boards) say Marth has a clear range advantage. Guess what? So does about 85% of the character has a range advantage vs Mario. This is nothing new and doesn't exactly set the match-up.

You say Marth shuts down ~90% of Mario's game. Ignoring that fact that this is not true, I'd say that 10% is all we need because of the quality of Mario's defensive options. Fireball, FLUDD, and camping are good quality tactics to use against Marth.

You say Marth can powershield fireballs, I say who cares? The fact that you're not zoning me and I can go on the offensive is an advantage in of itself. If you're powershielding, that means you're not attacking me. If you're not attacking me, I have all of my options open.

You say Mario has to wait for Marth to screw up in order for Mario to take an advatange. I'd say the fact that Marth can't screw up since Mario can punish heavily from it is reason enough that this is no more than 60:40. If you can't screw up, that means you always have to be on your A-game. And lets be honest here, no Marth player is perfect. Basing any match-up on perfect players is moot.

Then there are the clear advantages that Mario has which consist of a good combo game, shutting down Marth's options when Mario is within range, gimping Marth's predictable recovery, and having an equal if not better KO power than Marth minus the Tippered F-Smash.

What makes Metaknight a 65:35 is the fact that he does relinquish all of your options and forces you to wait it out and stay back the majority of the time. This isn't the same vs Marth. Mario has defensive options ready to use against him and we clearly have solid advantages. This is why I firmly believe this is no more than a 60:40 Marth Advantage.

 

[Shaya]

I think you just going "Marth outranges us", but "so does everyone else" is silly.
There are qualities in a match up that are considered, the depth of difference must also be taken into account. Marth clearly outranges Mario, by an amount that is larger than just about everyone in the cast except Metaknight, DK and Dedede (and Link/Ike)

But what changes this further is how disjointed our range is as well.

Ignoring how "much" one character exceeds over another is silly. You have to work -that much- harder to get through our range.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth doesn't "clearly" outrange Mario.

Mario's B-air, F-smash, and Up-smash are his most prominent attacks, and they all have good range. Not necessarily as disjointed, but enough range to be able to reach Marth reasonably fast.

A significant portion of Marth's range involves him leaning in on his attacks, increasing the possibility of Mario trading.

Furthermore, Mario's F-smash outranges ALL of Marth's attacks except for Dancing Blade and Shield Breaker. Which means whiffing basically ANYTHING against Mario is punishable from outside your maximum range.

While Marth does have more range, this isn't an infallible advantage for him. Mario is going to be camping him and drawing out the approach, and in order for a character to maintain safety in this game, you usually have to be retreating.

In a game where defensive options and dodge tactics are overpowered, and where Marth's sword is much shorter than in the previous game, his advantage of range doesn't really rule his matchups as much.

 

[ChaosKnight]

xD you guys are funny

 

[BBoyindo]

Ok the "Marth outranges Mario" to "85% of the cast does so should they all be 65/35" argument is a little faul.

Marth DOES outrange Mario, and indeed so does nearly every character in the cast. What not every character can do is keep Mario out as effectively as Marth can. Sure, Ike has a sword even longer than Marth's but can he keep you out even better then? NO! Of course he can not! Ike's attacks are slow, Ike's attacks are unsafe, Ike is not mobile in the air.

The same stuff applies with other characters. They may outrange Mario, but there are more aspects to it that just that.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

shutup and watch teh old school sex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2IJGWGoljk&feature=channel_page

You lost and that was against MK. What exactly was the point of that?

 

[BBoyindo]

His **** Mario was **** but SuperDMBrandon with his Super Metaknight was just too cheap better.