The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[HeroMystic]

If you want it to go smoothly you invite each character board to discuss the match, not rely on your own opinions. Our match up ratios mirror the other boards', what's the problem?

And dtilt does **** mario, destroys his entire ground game and forces reactions which Marth can punish.

I don't like the Marth boards because re-dicussions often get bumpy due to it "not mattering", as the Marth players put it.

Also I just reread our discussion we had a few months ago and saw this:

My opinion can't change over a number of months and experiences?

I'd say 60:40, but whatever. My opinions often doesn't meet with the majority.

 

[Steel]

60:40 is probably inaccurate, 50:50 is just LOL.

Mario doesn't have the tools. He gets destroyed on stage. Marth's aggression with fairs and dtilts is not an easy wall to get past, especially for Mario.

Saying "if you know the match up" isn't a debate, it's probably coming from pure personal experience from playing bad Marths.

 

[clowsui]

Famous did you lose your mind LOL

Matchup ratios don't change because you know the matchup
Ratios reflect the chances of each character winning given higher level play from both and relatively equal skill level

EDIT steel beat me to it

 

[Steel]

I don't like the Marth boards because re-dicussions often get bumpy due to it "not mattering", as the Marth players put it.



My opinion can't change over a number of months and experiences?

I'd say 60:40, but whatever. My opinions often doesn't meet with the majority.

What do you mean "not mattering?" >_>

 

[Famous]

Lol, Dtilt may be annoying but it doesn't destroys Mario ground game whatsoever...Mario can basically stand there and fireball until you approach or just SH Nair over it...Even Cape Dtilt...


[EDIT] I play enough against Marth to know...

EDIT AGAIN]Lol, No, I'm perfectly sain...My opinion wont change until I see Mario lose to Marth on a regular basis in tourney.

 

[Steel]

Mario shouldn't have many opportunities to fireball if Marth is aggro'ng like he should be. Again, what garbage Marths are you playing?

 

[:mad:]

What if there's two equally terrible players? Mario might have a chance...
/badhumor.


"Not mattering" as in "We're rediscussing this, but your newfound opinions don't matter.".

 

[HeroMystic]

What do you mean "not mattering?" >_>

Mario being low tier, Marth being high/top tier, d-tilt *****, etc.

Also, what Straked said.

 

[clowsui]

Fireball: PS
Nair is an aerial...which is not part of the ground game but I mean if you want to count it then sure. DTilt FORCES you to use Nair...which means you have an option that is telegraphed
Cape does not outrange DTilt, you have to approach Marth for the Cape to work...but see then you can just pivot DTilt and resume outranging and interruption stuff LOL
Dtilt has good IASA frames, so it's not likely you're beating us to any punches

 

[Famous]

Mario shouldn't have many opportunities to fireball if Marth is aggro'ng like he should be. Again, what garbage Marths are you playing?

Lol, Kadaj, Neo...


[EDIT]It's impossible to stay on someone without them making a move...Your basically saying that Marth 0-deaths Mario as soon as he gets out of the portal....

 

[Steel]

Kadaj doesn't do the match right, NEO would never let Mario just "stand there."

 

[Famous]

At high damages I get to stand where I want...You basically get scared of being punished OoS and try to corner Mario with Fairs...I'm going more into the meta-game rather than the actual matchup...I'll stop now

But whatever, 60-40...

 

[phi1ny3]

Haven't done marth vs. mario, so I wouldn't entirely know.
Shutting up.

 

[Matador]

If you want it to go smoothly you invite each character board to discuss the match, not rely on your own opinions. Our match up ratios mirror the other boards', what's the problem?

MAYBE that'd work if we weren't discussion with the Marth boards, but we are. It's painfully obvious that you guys tend to overrate your character and abuse theory when discussing nearly every character from day one.

Proof? You've completed two matchup charts before most boards have completed their first. No, it has nothing to do with "being efficient" or whatever you'd like to label your sloppy, chauvinistic discussion as. You guys exaggerate your character beyond tolerable bounds. We don't need that.

What we NEED is a discussion about what other Marios HAVE done that HAVE worked against good Marth players. We need to know what we can test, how the match should be fought, what stages to take him to. That's what we can learn from. Marth boards can't offer that. How do I know? Because you failed to the first time.

"Our match up ratios mirror the other boards', what's the problem?" Don't make me laugh. Your first matchup chart had you down as an advantage vs every character on the roster aside from MK. Snake was even. Wario, Falco, ROB, and DK were slight disadvantage. Your second one is barely any different; ergo, your chart is a joke. No one credible takes those things as seriously as you guys do.

TL;DR

We don't need you. Please leave.

Also I just reread our discussion we had a few months ago and saw this:



You guys are silly.

Yes, because if our closing remarks were "well....I don't hate you as much as Hitler", then you wouldn't have taken offense. It's called courtesy. You come into someone else's home? You take your shoes off, even if the place is a shoddy mess.

 

[HeroMystic]

Matador, such passion!

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Yeah, I've heard... things about the Marth boards.

Not only from here, but yeah, bad things.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

The match is in Mario's favor as much as it's in Marth's. Sure, Marth has Dtilt, Fair, Nair, ect, ect, everythings quick and safe. He can keep you at bay, as well as getting a KO in without much of a problem. Marth will create a brick wall of sword swipes at you. You won't be able to get in so easily. Especially since Mario is lacking range wise.

On that same token. Mario not only has a campy projectile, He combo's % in so easily once he is inside. He may not be able to gimp marth all the time via cape or fludd. But he can sure as **** grab the ledge on Marth's upB. If Marth lands right on the edge, just attack instead of roll or jump. In reality, Marth will have to recover via the ledge one day. As well as being gimped.

It's no easy task for either one to get the win. Far as this 60/40, 50/50. How do you know? I mean really, in all seriousness. I take it you've played every player playing the game of Brawl, that mains that said character. As well as being up against every playstyle imaginable.

(Thinks of Jigglypuffs tier listing during Melee's prime era)

It be in our best interest to discuss what works and what's needed to put emphasis into using during the match instead. Or even better, Rather then disputing over a dumb/irrelevant/imaginary ratio # for the matchup.

Play against every Marth/Mario you can. Best believe there will be one out there that not only beats you, but does it with 2 stock to spare.


One thing I will say. On paper, and on thought. In comparison to when it actually happens during a match, are two entirely different things. And that's something you just can't put a ratio on. As during the moment, anythings possible.

 

[Famous]

Best believe there will be one out there that not only beats you, but does it with 2 stock to spare.

Brings back memories from CoT4...I played so many Marth mains that day...

 

[momochuu]

Yeah, I've heard... things about the Marth boards.

Not only from here, but yeah, bad things.

Not all of them (us? o_o)are gay men.

I'm trying to think of any of Mario's moves that outrange Marth's DTilt, but I'm not getting any idea. :x

 

[KirinBlaze]

Brings back memories from CoT4...I played so many Marth mains that day...

What an awesome time it was. I'm definitely going to hang out with Boss and yourself more at APEX.

 

[Steel]

MAYBE that'd work if we weren't discussion with the Marth boards, but we are. It's painfully obvious that you guys tend to overrate your character and abuse theory when discussing nearly every character from day one.

Overrate our character? We're VERY unbiased when it comes to our match up discussions, if you say no to that you're simply ignorant. Abuse theory? How else do you discuss a match up? You can't go by personal experience. If I say I destroy every Snake player I face does that make it in Marth's favor? No, because when you look at each characters' tools it would make no sense for the ratio to be like that.

Proof? You've completed two matchup charts before most boards have completed their first. No, it has nothing to do with "being efficient" or whatever you'd like to label your sloppy, chauvinistic discussion as. You guys exaggerate your character beyond tolerable bounds. We don't need that.

OK, first off, the first match up chart, if you could call it that, was made by ONE person ALONE. We never discussed those matches at all, Emblem Lord simply gave the community a boost and gave an introduction to each match up and slapped a ratio onto it.

Second, we finished our match up discussions because we ARE efficient. Marth boards get **** done. What you guys and other boards can do in a week we can knock out in a day. I made sure each discussion ran smoothly, quickly, and efficiently. We even had each board come into our threads to put in their input so can we see the match from both sides. Everyone would come to an agreement and I would start the next discussion.

And I'll be arrogant here, we ARE better than the other boards. Every one of them.

What we NEED is a discussion about what other Marios HAVE done that HAVE worked against good Marth players. We need to know what we can test, how the match should be fought, what stages to take him to. That's what we can learn from. Marth boards can't offer that. How do I know? Because you failed to the first time.

The first part is part of a match up discussion. Look at Mario's tools and how he can limit Marth's in a certain scenario.

Exactly what did we "fail to the first time?" Again, we look at each characters' tools, how they can apply them, what beats what, etc. What more is needed? How much would you like to be spoon fed? Perhaps our elitism is too tough for those who want everything immediately?

"Our match up ratios mirror the other boards', what's the problem?" Don't make me laugh. Your first matchup chart had you down as an advantage vs every character on the roster aside from MK. Snake was even. Wario, Falco, ROB, and DK were slight disadvantage. Your second one is barely any different; ergo, your chart is a joke. No one credible takes those things as seriously as you guys do.

Again, the first one was made by ONE PERSON. No community discussion involved whatsoever. Emblem Lord was asked to make one so he did the community a favor.

We DEFINITELY beat Wario and Falco. Without a doubt. ROB and DK are even, though DK may be Marth's favor. Oh, we're just overrating ourselves aren't we? Learn WTF you're talking about.

---

Our board is the most productive one on SWF. Prove me wrong.

 

[Famous]

Not all of them (us? o_o)are gay men.

I'm trying to think of any of Mario's moves that outrange Marth's DTilt, but I'm not getting any idea. :x

The ones I know IRL aren't gay men


Mario's FSmash either beats Dtilt or cross hits with it...I've done it before but it's not guranteed


[EDIT] Yeah Kirin, I'm looking forward to playing with you at APEX...Me and Boss will show you the new stuff we learned

[EDIT AGAIN] Lol, now I see what Steel2nd was doing the past 30mins

 

[Ismael]

Overrate our character? We're VERY unbiased when it comes to our match up discussions, if you say no to that you're simply ignorant. Abuse theory? How else do you discuss a match up? You can't go by personal experience. If I say I destroy every Snake player I face does that make it in Marth's favor? No, because when you look at each characters' tools it would make no sense for the ratio to be like that.

You gave real proof about the latter but not the former. How are you not biased, especially when you ended your so called argument with "your simply ignorant"?



If your boards is so much better than everybody elses, then gtfo and stay there.

 

[Steel]

You gave real proof about the latter but not the former. How are you not biased, especially when you ended your so called argument with "your simply ignorant"?



If your boards is so much better than everybody elses, then gtfo and stay there.

Because he doesn't know enough about Marth's metagame.

And I'm here because I still care about metagame/community.

 

[Ismael]

Because he doesn't know enough about Marth's metagame.

And I'm here because I still care about metagame/community.

And you (along with almost every other Marth player) don't know anough about ANY characters "metagame".

And no, you don't care. All that comes from you guys is "lol we teh rapez you with Marf", you haven't contributed anything. Seeing as how you havn't said ANY weaknesses that Marth has against Mario, you just say how Marth is better in every way, and argue at people who say otherwise, you say the "gay" cape and fludd, and you actually argue and name call the rest of the "community" over Marth... your uber biased.



Fludd out prioritizes Marth's upb, suck it.

 

[Steel]

And you (along with almost every other Marth player) don't know anough about ANY characters "metagame".

And no, you don't care. All that comes from you guys is "lol we teh rapez you with Marf", you haven't contributed anything. Seeing as how you havn't said ANY weaknesses that Marth has against Mario, you just say how Marth is better in every way, and argue at people who say otherwise, you say the "gay" cape and fludd, and you actually argue and name call the rest of the "community" over Marth... your uber biased.



Fludd out prioritizes Marth's upb, suck it.

Don't know about other characters' metagame? Holy ****. Once again, to be SURE we didn't miss anything we insisted on having every board come in and discuss with us. And I said he didn't know enough because he felt that certain characters definitely had an advantage over Marth when they obviously don't.

And seriously? Everything else was already stated, my summary was just that, a summary.

Mario can gimp Marth, Mario can combo Marth and trap him, Mario can juggle Marth and kill him relatively early. Marth still wins because his advantages far outweigh the disadvantages he has in the match.

 

[Famous]

And I'll be arrogant here, we ARE better than the other boards. Every one of them.

FTL

All that comes from you guys is "lol we teh rapez you with Marf", you haven't contributed anything. Seeing as how you havn't said ANY weaknesses that Marth has against Mario, you just say how Marth is better in every way, and argue at people who say otherwise, you say the "gay" cape and fludd, and you actually argue and name call the rest of the "community" over Marth... your uber biased.

FTW

It takes us more time to finish discussions because we ACTUALLY take time doing research instead of just saying that our character *****...We dig deep before we actually come to a conclusion.

[EDIT]Yes, as a character Marth has his advantages over Mario. This doesn't mean that Marth will beat Mario every time...

 

[Steel]

Nah, we're just better.

Anyway, I'm done here.

*flips back my cape as I walk away

 

[Famous]

And what did we learn about the Mario Vs Marth matchup?....Not a dam thing...Dtilt destroys Mario ground game...lolz

This matchup will remain 50/50 in my eyes

 

[Ismael]

Don't know about other characters' metagame? Holy ****. Once again, to be SURE we didn't miss anything we insisted on having every board come in and discuss with us.

Then don't argue with those boards, especially on THEIR own board, and ESPECIALLY against Matador, one of our best players.

And Marth dosn't "still win". It's just an advantage/disadvantage ratio. But thanks for finally adding input other than just how good Marth is. The matchup is about Marth 55-45. 60-40 at best.


You may leave.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

And you (along with almost every other Marth player) don't know anough about ANY characters "metagame".

And you don't know how to spell "enough."

 

[Matt07]

Mario's D-tilt wrecks Marth in this match-up.

Use it and abuse it. This is the only match-up where this move shines.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Umm no.

Marth's Dtilt outranges it and is better.

 

[Ismael]

And you don't know how to spell "enough."

-_- ... ... Wow... you sure showed me... thank you for your amazing contribution to this thread... >_> Who invited the grammar nazi?! XD

Anyway, before things get out of hand, lets just move on. Seeing as how their "amazing and efficient" boards won't really contribute anything worth reading.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

-_- ... ... Wow... you sure showed me... thank you for your amazing contribution to this thread... >_> Who invited the grammar nazi?! XD

Anyway, before things get out of hand, lets just move on. Seeing as how their "amazing and efficient" boards won't really contribute anything worth reading.

Is that it? Or are you afraid that you won't comprehend what we're saying?

Look, I don't know who you are, and I like some Mario's on the Boards, so just listen to Steel, he's going to destroy your logic and make you feel stupid inside if you don't.

 

[Famous]

Anyway, before things get out of hand, lets just move on. Seeing as how their "amazing and efficient" boards won't really contribute anything worth reading.

You beat me to it...Let's move on...

This thread will get locked at this rate...I'm sure the Marth mains will get a laugh at that

 

[vato_break]

i'll record a set with a local marth seeing as i beilive i am an above average mario and most marths in socal are pretty good.

 

[Matador]

Overrate our character? We're VERY unbiased when it comes to our match up discussions, if you say no to that you're simply ignorant.

lol, unbiased? Your entire stance on the Mario vs Marth discussion was "we can Fair it though".

We can fireball approach and upB OOS to stop your approach. "Well we can fair though them every single ****in time and space Fair so you'll never land your upB...then punish with Fair".

What if we land an Fsmash, Marth is light so... "Well Fair stops us from dying until about 140% from your Fsmash. You can't even really land it since Fair is so long".

What if we try to gimp you? "We can fair you before you get to us".

How are you killing? Everyone knows Marth has no killmoves safe on shield. "We can tip a Fair."

Abuse theory? How else do you discuss a match up? You can't go by personal experience. If I say I destroy every Snake player I face does that make it in Marth's favor? No, because when you look at each characters' tools it would make no sense for the ratio to be like that.

The fact that you even need to ASK this question just augments my position; you run Marth boards matchup discussion but don't know how to discuss. Of course, I can't blame you for this, because this definitely isn't the first time I've had to explain why theorycraft fails, so let me break it down to you.

Matchup discussion is about OPTIONS. What one character can do to the other without it wandering into statements like "well a good Marth wouldn't Fair if he thought you would upB close enough to hit him". Stuff like that KILLS the discussion and leaves everything to theory. You say what beats what. How they'll be killing, if they can reliably gimp, who wins aerially, grounded, which stages to use, and matchup specific traits. So what one character CAN do to the other, not what they WOULD do if the match were going in slow motion and you had a theoretical counter attack for every move we make.

The reason there are two character boards normally involved in discussion is that you do not know our character and we do not know yours. We went into your boards open minded. You gave us your rundown. We said what was wrong with it. You guys told us WE were wrong and shoved 65:35 down our throat. I finally said what you guys wanted to hear and agreed with that ratio simply because I was sick of discussing with the Marth boards.

Even the Ness boards didn't piss me off to the point where I abandoned my standpoint just to get the hell away from PKNintendo the die-hard Ness zealots; we saved it for another day.

OK, first off, the first match up chart, if you could call it that, was made by ONE person ALONE. We never discussed those matches at all, Emblem Lord simply gave the community a boost and gave an introduction to each match up and slapped a ratio onto it.

Your second chart looks nearly identical to the first. Your point is moot.

Second, we finished our match up discussions because we ARE efficient. Marth boards get **** done. What you guys and other boards can do in a week we can knock out in a day. I made sure each discussion ran smoothly, quickly, and efficiently. We even had each board come into our threads to put in their input so can we see the match from both sides. Everyone would come to an agreement and I would start the next discussion.

And I'll be arrogant here, we ARE better than the other boards. Every one of them.

Efficient =/= fast. If you got your ratio first, that DOES NOT mean it is accurate. You guys held two and three discussions a day at the same time. Do you want to know why no other board tried to go that fast? Here's a hint. I assure you it's not because of some disillusioned idea that the Marth boards are magically BETTER than every other board on SWF.

They don't do it because it's stupid. Sometimes important views on the matchup don't present themselves until much later. Because sometimes video evidence is necessary and testing must be done. Because sometimes there's disagreement that isn't settled by "we're right, you're wrong. We can Fair it." There are often times where the matchup DOES take one day, but even then, you don't split the attention between 3 different boards at a time or LIMIT each discussion to just that one day. If there's more to be done, more to be discussed, still some dissension between boards, there's more to be done.

I've read your discussions. That is, if you want to call it that. 50% of them started out with one of the Marths suggesting a number, then everyone rallying together to annoy the ever-loving crap out of the other board until they agreed.

The first part is part of a match up discussion. Look at Mario's tools and how he can limit Marth's in a certain scenario.

Exactly what did we "fail to the first time?" Again, we look at each characters' tools, how they can apply them, what beats what, etc. What more is needed? How much would you like to be spoon fed? Perhaps our elitism is too tough for those who want everything immediately?

Your idea of elitism is telling the other mains what their character can and can't do and fortifying your ideas with theory. YOU don't know Link. YOU don't know Bowser. YOU don't know Mario. That's what the other board is there for.

Idiot.

Name calling? Is that REALLY what you're being reduced to? I must have hit a nerve.

Again, the first one was made by ONE PERSON. No community discussion involved whatsoever. Emblem Lord was asked to make one so he did the community a favor.

We DEFINITELY beat Wario and Falco. Without a doubt. ROB and DK are even, though DK may be Marth's favor. Oh, we're just overrating ourselves aren't we? Learn WTF you're talking about.

---

Our board is the most productive one on SWF. Prove me wrong.

Okay, so right here you're writing off the leader of the forty thieves AND the most prominent voice in most of the discussions as "well, we weren't part of that." Fair enough.

And maybe you DO have the advantage on those characters. Maybe you don't. You completely missed my point. I read some of your discussions (they were like 2 pages each) and every single one was the same. You never really "discussed" anything. Ever.

Edit:

Nah, we're just better.

Anyway, I'm done here.

*flips back my cape as I walk away

Look at this! This is a perfect little example of how your discussions are run. "I'm right, you're wrong, we're done. Next??" It's so sad that you are the only ones that don't see it.

 

[Ismael]

Is that it? Or are you afraid that you won't comprehend what we're saying?

Look, I don't know who you are, and I like some Mario's on the Boards, so just listen to Steel, he's going to destroy your logic and make you feel stupid inside if you don't.

I think that's what Matador just did to you guys...

 

[:mad:]

I don't know what it is that makes Marths so stuck-up. At any rate, our cape is better. I'll put this discussion on hold since there's no real agreement, just major arguing over anything BUT Marth vs. Mario. As it stands, it's 60:40 until we can do this right, and get some actual analysis of the matchup.

Marth boards are most productive, but then again, Marth mains account for 40% of the SWF population.
There's maybe 10 of us here.