Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[RadianB]

I managed to stage spike using Seismic Toss, not sure how I did it and I can't replicate it in training mode:

Maybe one of you guys can figure it out?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Huh... It almost looks like the shield pushblock momentum from Bowser's Fair carried over into the Seismic Toss.

If you aren't able to replicate this scenario by performing it on the edge against a stationary opponent that would be my educated guess.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Anyone know where I can get ledge trump data? I couldn't find it in the smash academy.

Trela looked like he was frames away from a guaranteed trump-dump on sheik. If sheik has low trump frames, zards might have one hell of a tool to add to our edgeguarding aresenal.

I figured I'd spend some time tomorrow seeing what our options are; I'm not holding my breath for a guaranteed bair-trump, but if our opponent has only a few frames to react, we become much more intimidating

 

[RadianB]

Huh... It almost looks like the shield pushblock momentum from Bowser's Fair carried over into the Seismic Toss.

If you aren't able to replicate this scenario by performing it on the edge against a stationary opponent that would be my educated guess.

Yeah that probably seems like the case, I wish I could find a proper use for his up throw because tbh his Brawl one was much better, it did more damage and knockback.

Also does anyone have any tips against Ness and defensive Bowser? I can beat them but struggle to do so.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Alright folks I should have some time tomorrow if my cousin is around with her 3ds. I'm gonna try to make good on that trump dump talk.

All characters have 30 frames when trumped, but different angles. Apparently the quickest you can act from the ledge is 2 frames, which means we have 28 frames to work with.

I haven't b done frame counting every but zard bair seems close to Yoshi fair in terms out the hot box coming out. Iirc, Yoshi Fair comes out at frame 14. I'll assume charizard is slower and his hair comes out at frame 20. That gives him 8 frames to drop ledge and space the hair, which sounds forgiving for a professional (ahem lzr tc TRG redryu).

If I'm not stupid and this works, we could have a guaranteed kill move against characters with proper trajectories/hurtboxxes. The unique part for charizard will be the range and power of his bair.

Trela did miss against sheik in b that one game, but I'm just hoping he hasn't practiced it enough.

 

[Lavani]

The soonest you can act from the ledge may be 2 frames, but don't forget that you're forced to hold the ledge for a duration before you can let go of it, and that you'll eject the opponent before that duration ends. Pretty sure the frame data is rather heavily stacked against Charizard, but I have no formal numbers so best of luck with your tests.

 

[The Real Gamer]

which sounds forgiving for a professional (ahem lzr tc TRG redryu).

I am by no means a professional. xD Didn't get into the competitive scene until a little over a year ago, but that was for Melee. Luckily a lot of what I learned from Melee seems to have transferred over nicely to my Smash 4 game. Other than that I'm just a guy dedicated to his character. I DO aim to be one of the best Zards out there though.

Back on topic getting ledge trump data will be EXTREMELY crucial moving forward. Can you imagine how nuts Zard would be if he could automatically connect a Bair on the majority of the cast after trumping them? *drools*

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Back on topic getting ledge trump data will be EXTREMELY crucial moving forward. Can you imagine how nuts Zard would be if he could automatically connect a Bair on the majority of the cast after trumping them? *drools*

Yeah, don't hold your breath on that. I wasnt able to practice with my cousin, but I did some training mode stuff a couple hours after my posts. Against a Rosalina CPU set to idle, running at 1/4 speed, she appeared to jump while I had ~10 more frames for the hitbox to come out. (I've never counted frames so just rough estimates). I could see precise inputs getting the bair out maybe 5 frames earlier.

Some more testing against ros. You spend so much time on the ledge. Sure you can start the rise or jump animation sob after grabbing but those take too many frames. Unless there's a way to get off ledge faster guaranteed follow ups seem out of the question. However, Nairs sweet spot starts behind zard which happens to be where ros end up. The hit box can outlast her airdoge so that is a good option.

Edit: just got some more info from thinkaman. Apparently the quicker you grab the ledge after they do, the more frame advantage you get. The dream is alive, but I'll need to practice with someone in person, which could be Friday. Also, frame perfect turnaround fair could be more reliable, if you can perform it.

Of course, the fact that you have to be precise with your trump timing means trump dumping isn't going to be the early easy kill mechanic I fantasized about.

 

[Swoops]

^ On the subject of trump follow ups, I also had a tough time connecting with anything significant.

However, depending on the character I believe ledge drop > immediate UAir is guaranteed. It has to be a relatively low trump angle on the character, but hold back to ledge drop, immediate UAir should work. It'll definitely be easier with a cstick :/

Another cool edge thing I found while messing around is that you can ledge drop, double jump BAir, and UpB to immediately snap back to the ledge. Probably less useful with the new ledge mecahnics, but I'm guessing that it would be useful for SH Bair at the edge.

 

[-LzR-]

I doubt ledgetrumping becomes a thing. It appears to work like a grab release where there is no real advantage for the character who grabs the ledge except better positioning. The positioning can be a big deal, but I don't think it has much potential for Zard. Hopefully we'll get the exact frames soon enough so we can close the case.

 

[Xmark]

So SH Nair is just ok, but:

Fullhop, Nair, autocancel is THE BEST

So the timing the autocancel window during a falling nair is pretty tricky to get used to (I still mess it up,) but it is very rewarding.

• Allows much better control of where the nair hitbox goes, which really elevates nair as his most dominating spacing tool.
• Since you have more control, it is much easier to avoid shield grabbing
  
• Best way to take advantage of nair's giant hitbox. With a SH, you really only functionally cover a short distance in front of you, as well as slightly behind. With a fullhop, you maximize the distance from your opponent while still harassing them with nair.
• Allows you a little leeway in timing. You can fullhop, see what they decide to do, then act accordingly: falling nair, delay then double jump falling nair, do nothing, flamethrower, or rock smash if they are feeling frisky.
• Best of all, if you have your timing down, you still land without lag. Combos with jab are still possible, grab follow ups, dash attack etc.
• - I would say the one negative is the same as SH nair, you have to be careful of people of rushing in guns-a-blazing. But that's what delays, flamethrower, and rock smash are for.

Thoughts? If I get a second I might be able to demonstrate somehow, I hope to get some match vids up soon but I keep forgetting to record.

Also, some extra bits of analysis:

• Zard hits like a truck...I mean I know we all know it but damn. Fair kills at the edge of the stage at like 90% (sweetspot, right next to zard) don't know who I tested this against but I can't replicate it lol, sweetspot bair kills very early, same with uair. In fact I generally don't use aerials other than nair which keeps all the others fresh and ready to kill.
• BThrow and uthrow are by far is best throws I feel. Bthrow recovers so fast, no combos as far as I can tell, but generally people don't have much time to react as charizard can be in their face immediately with a fair or flare blitz/dragon rush. Uthrow sets up nicely for a fair or falling nair at earlier percents.
• Fthrow can be used to toss off stage if you need to. Dthrow sucks , 6% with same positioning but more recovery than bthrow.
• All of his tilts are decent, but I like dtilt the most. Recovers faster than ftilt, has similar range, and has a nasty knockback angle.
  
• Dsmash...is your standard roll chase, with decent knockback and angle...nothing really remarkable about it outside of that.
  
• I'm liking usmash more and more. Super quick.

Dthrow is actually a pretty decent kill move against high % foes when near the ledge

 

[-LzR-]

I'm assuming throws are affected by rage (why wouldn't they?).
With that in mind if you save your Dthrow and you are at high % if will be a really effective "desperation" killmove. Rage is huge for Zard imo.

 

[Swoops]

Dthrow is actually a pretty decent kill move against high % foes when near the ledge

I agree. Many people have turned me on to the kill-throw niche that dthrow fills. I stand corrected.

I doubt ledgetrumping becomes a thing. It appears to work like a grab release where there is no real advantage for the character who grabs the ledge except better positioning. The positioning can be a big deal, but I don't think it has much potential for Zard. Hopefully we'll get the exact frames soon enough so we can close the case.

I think that would depend on your definition of a "thing." I think I would agree that it might not be commonplace across every match up and every character, but it has the potential to be a very deep and rewarding addition to ledge strategies.

Especially considering that @ YeahVeryeah assumption is most likely right, that timing of the ledge grab affects the "trumper's" advantage. I see it opening up a whole set of mindgames with ledge sweet spots and delayed ledge grabs. The trumper might go for a timed ledge snap in anticipation of the recovering character sweet spotting the ledge, but then if the recovering character deliberately doesn't sweet spot, the trumper's timing will be completely screwed and they may get trumped themselves for a punish. Fun stuff.

 

[Xmark]

Can we talk about Uthrow/Seismic toss please? I was watching match in the zard video archive and I saw this guy use a Fair right after the Uthrow(Low Percent). Sadly when he landed his was hit by a Dtilt but if we can find some useful options after the throw it might be somewhat useful sense it's not a reliable kill option. I was thinking maybe Flamethrower because I tried that and it seemed safe after the throw or maybe my opponent was unaware of how to counter react. Also maybe DownB might work because it should be able to hit the opponent if they dont DI/VI away, also we have armor on downB so it might be able to hit even if the opponent get an attack off.(I dont have the game so I can't test this myself atm)

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Seismic Toss into F-Air works on a few characters, but pretty much only at zero percent. You'll typically want to go to ftoss and btoss whenever you're not killing or doing the above. Seismic toss has very low damage. and a poor launch angle, unless you want to keep your opponent out of neutral.

 

[-LzR-]

Outside of the Uthrow -> Fair combo it only has very situational use with platforms.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'll sometimes do a Seismic Toss on Battlefield to mix things up and get underneath characters who are poor at landing safely such a Bowser or Ganon.

Other than that I don't use it much... It really should have been Zard's kill throw as opposed to his down throw.

 

[Christhewolf63]

I usually U throw into Flamethrower to poke and space for my next aproach... Most opponents will try to rush in as soon as the throw ends and they just run into the Flamethrower. Other than that F/B throw are superior for damage and follow ups and Down throw kills. .. U throw can also be used for Platform placement

-edit-

You can also use this to separate luma from Rosalina it's still sort of Gimicky but if you're trying to find a use for it

 

[-LzR-]

One thing that might be obvious to all of you but should be discussed:

We can fair from the ledge and autocancel it on landing. Have you tried to use this as a ledge option? Can you do it consistently? The timing isn't very easy and takes a bit of practice to get used to, but I wonder how practical it actually is.

 

[Christhewolf63]

I use walk off Fair and Nair all the time

 

[-LzR-]

No I mean, you grab the ledge, let go of the ledge, jump with a fair and land back on the stage without lag.

 

[SkyboundTerror]

I do that often, but not against the same player because they will learn from it. It is a better option than using the standard ledge attack, I think.

You can also jump up from the ledge and use Rock Smash (don't get back on stage), then grab on the ledge again as you float back down. Works great against players who like to stand or camp the ledge.

 

[-LzR-]

You can also jump up from the ledge and use Rock Smash (don't get back on stage), then grab on the ledge again as you float back down. Works great against players who like to stand or camp the ledge.

Cool, I didn't know about that.

 

[Davregis]

Let's see... The destruction of Vectoring helps Charizard a ton in some areas, namely in the ability to KO earlier with Fly and secure theoretically easier followups. How will this affect Zard overall? He too is easier to vertically KO, and his slow falling presents a theoretical danger.

 

[RadianB]

Let's see... The destruction of Vectoring helps Charizard a ton in some areas, namely in the ability to KO earlier with Fly and secure theoretically easier followups. How will this affect Zard overall? He too is easier to vertically KO, and his slow falling presents a theoretical danger.

Charizard's Up Smash and Up Tilt come out fast so this update is good for us. Also Rock Smash has more vertical knock so it'll be killing more often as well.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm glad I never bothered learning to vector. I never liked the mechanic anyways. I wonder why they got rid of it.
These patches are so bad I hope they never do another one, it's like they have no idea what they are doing.

 

[Davregis]

Charizard's Up Smash and Up Tilt come out fast so this update is good for us. Also Rock Smash has more vertical knock so it'll be killing more often as well.

Oh man, I never thought about how much this buffs Charizard's kill potential... OoS USmash will be crazy good now, just gotta keep it fresh!

 

[-LzR-]

How powerful was vectoring? Like how much longer could you live with it? I never really bothered with learning about it and now that it's gone I'm glad I didn't.

 

[RadianB]

I discovered a new useless tech with Charizard, well I'm not sure if it's totally useless but I can't find a use for it.
It's basically his jab but he moves a tiny bit further when he uses it. To do it hold forward-down diagonal on the analog stick and then press A, instead of doing a tilt he does his jab. You can tell it goes further if you repeatly do only the first hit of the jab whilst performing the tech, he'll eventually travel across the stage. It's not possible to do this with his normal jab as if you only repeatly do the first hit without doing the tech Charizard won't move from his current location at all.
I think it's useless because it's too hard to preform in a proper battle.

 

[Shog]

I discovered a new useless tech with Charizard, well I'm not sure if it's totally useless but I can't find a use for it.
It's basically his jab but he moves a tiny bit further when he uses it. To do it hold forward-down diagonal on the analog stick and then press A, instead of doing a tilt he does his jab. You can tell it goes further if you repeatly do only the first hit of the jab whilst performing the tech, he'll eventually travel across the stage. It's not possible to do this with his normal jab as if you only repeatly do the first hit without doing the tech Charizard won't move from his current location at all.
I think it's useless because it's too hard to preform in a proper battle.

Actually, considering how good his jab is, this might be useful for perfect spacing.

Thanks for sharing this, can't wait to get the Wii U Version next weak and learn that

 

[YeahVeryeah]

I think it's useless because it's too hard to preform in a proper battle.

Well, if it just requires precision, then it will be useful in 20XX. Does it require time? If you move the stick and press A too soon, will you tilt instead? It certainly doesn't sound amazing, but I want to squeeze every ounce of power out of zard if I can, and im pretty sure im not the only one.

 

[Shog]

Well, if it just requires precision, then it will be useful in 20XX. Does it require time? If you move the stick and press A too soon, will you tilt instead? It certainly doesn't sound amazing, but I want to squeeze every ounce of power out of zard if I can, and im pretty sure im not the only one.

Exactly, I think the same. I mean it is one of those small things...I never heard about a tech which MOVES the character which is useless. And we are talking about Charizard's tech

 

[Davregis]

So it ends up having the effect of a kara? Depending on how far it moves Charizard, this could be nice.

 

[RadianB]

^ It doesn't move very far at all.

Well, if it just requires precision, then it will be useful in 20XX. Does it require time? If you move the stick and press A too soon, will you tilt instead? It certainly doesn't sound amazing, but I want to squeeze every ounce of power out of zard if I can, and im pretty sure im not the only one.

I can't seem to do it instantly, it takes me a while before I can find the angle on the circle pad before he stops doing tilts. I'm using the 3DS atm though so I might be able to preform it better when I get the Wii U version next week.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

^ It doesn't move very far at all.

I can't seem to do it instantly, it takes me a while before I can find the angle on the circle pad before he stops doing tilts. I'm using the 3DS atm though so I might be able to preform it better when I get the Wii U version next week.

I'll try it with gcn control tonight. Anyone else have it?

 

[~Radiance~]

i do. Ive been playing with it and the angle is very precise. theres is an angle in speedrunning zelda caleld Extended Super Slide position, and its super precise. this angle is even more precise then that, cant see it being used reliably.

Also of note is that OoS Jump canceled rock smash is an option, and zard will not rise as he does it so its a fairly good punish for spot dodges after somoene pressures your shield, or if they decide to be aggressive and throw out a jab or tilt after their attack ends (in the event that the attack they pressured your shield with has low cool down) Dunno if this info was stated yet or not.

on another note i was messing around with ff uair since it has relativley low lag and seems like it could lead to stuff. this was the janky result that came from it.

http://www.twitch.tv/latiaslulu/c/5564653

 

[Flayl]

How easy is it for the opponent to avoid Uthrow -> Flare Blitz at 50%?

50% is kind of an arbitrary number, it depends on the opponent's weight and fall speed. The 50% I got there is for Mario & Dr. Mario.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

its hard

i hope it can be made more precise. im out of state and didn't have the chance to practice before i left

 

[Coffee™]

How easy is it for the opponent to avoid Uthrow -> Flare Blitz at 50%?

50% is kind of an arbitrary number, it depends on the opponent's weight and fall speed. The 50% I got there is for Mario & Dr. Mario.

Very very easy.

 

[Davregis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6BRi8t8Ec&app=desktop

This is huge, but we all know it'll get patched out