Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[ZTD | TECHnology]

THE CHARIZARD METAGAME DISCUSSION TOPIC

With Smash 4's release just over one week away, it's time to start planning how we as a community will be approaching metagame advancement and development for our favorite fire-breathing Pokémon. Below is a list of proposed topic of discussion and research that hopefully, proactive Zard users will help develop. If there is a specific topic that you would like added to this, please pitch your ideas this way. Charizard's place in the metagame remains a large question as of now. Let's start taking away the mystery and figure out what makes our friend tick. Below are some topics I feel would make a good starting point:

• Everything Flare Blitz - Flare Blitz is Zard's new special and it has many people excited. It's a recovery move, a powerful punish and even a occasional means of closing the gap. We need to be asking questions such as: How we can facilitate landing Flare Blitz as a punish? How can we force tech chase setups for this move? How much damage per match can we realistically expect to take from the recoil? How much Flare Blitz is too much?
• Frame Data and Hitboxes - Knowing your frame data is a must. It's especially important for a punishing type character like Charizard. And of course we'll need to know what our hitboxes really look like. Who will spearhead this investigation?
• How to Handle Camping - Let's face it. Charizard is a large framed character without a long range projectile. Characters like Duck Hunt Dog will likely give us issues. We'll need to figure out what is the best way of handling defensive, projectile based play.
• Matchup Discussion - There's a lot of matchups we're going to have to sift through. We'll need to start investigating who gives us issues, and how we're going to deal with it.
• Secondary Characters - Closely related to the previous topic, we'll need to figure out which characters mesh well with Charizard and cover his bad matchups.
• Charizard in Doubles - How does Charizard fare in doubles? Who does he team well with? Are there any crazy gimmicks Charizard can abuse here?
• Advanced Techniques - Have you noticed something...unusual? Does a certain move perform different in certain circumstances? It's still early but speculation and feasible leads may give birth to a new discovery! Post your observations here.

Should this topic gain steam and we start really figuring things out, I will update the OP to catalog any worthwhile discussions and finds. Its up to us to make this character shine. So let's show them that Pokémon #006 is #1 in Smash 4!

- TC

 

[Masonomace]

• Everything Flare Blitz - Flare Blitz is Zard's new special and it has many people excited. It's a recovery move, a powerful punish and even a occasional means of closing the gap. We need to be asking questions such as: How we can facilitate landing Flare Blitz as a punish? How can we force tech chase setups for this move? How much damage per match can we realistically expect to take from the recoil? How much Flare Blitz is too much?
• Frame Data and Hitboxes - Knowing your frame data is a must. It's especially important for a punishing type character like Charizard. And of course we'll need to know what our hitboxes really look like. Who will spearhead this investigation?
• How to Handle Camping - Let's face it. Charizard is a large framed character without a long range projectile. Characters like Duck Hunt Dog will likely give us issues. We'll need to figure out what is the best way of handling defensive, projectile based play.
• Matchup Discussion - There's a lot of matchups we're going to have to sift through. We'll need to start investigating who gives us issues, and how we're going to deal with it.
• Secondary Characters - Closely related to the previous topic, we'll need to figure out which characters mesh well with Charizard and cover his bad matchups.
• Charizard in Doubles - How does Charizard fare in doubles? Who does he team well with? Are there any crazy gimmicks Charizard can abuse here?
• Advanced Techniques - Have you noticed something...unusual? Does a certain move perform different in certain circumstances? It's still early but speculation and feasible leads may give birth to a new discovery! Post your observations here.

Should this topic gain steam and we start really figuring things out, I will update the OP to catalog any worthwhile discussions and finds. Its up to us to make this character shine. So let's show them that Pokémon #006 is #1 in Smash 4!

- TC

Awesome OP T_C.

So for the Everything Flare Blitz topic, the answer to "How can we facilitate landing Flare Blitz as a punish?", I'd say that the most useful tactic of utilizing Flare Blitz to punish greatly with ease, would be to input FB right as the opponent(s) are landing on the ground. The setback of the self-inflicting recoil are a small price to pay for the awesomeness that is FB, so the punish to their landing may be quite effective; because AirDodges upon landing now have landing lag. The question "How much damage per match can we realistically expect to take from the recoil?" can be answered with an explanation first, then my response:
4% for every time we input but miss it, & wanna use FB for ledge-snapping from off-screen recovering; 9% for the initial built-in 4% recoil & 5% burning afterwards from making contact to their shield or their hurt-box. My response to that is self-explanatory answered questions:

How many times will we use Flare Blitz to attempt recovering? At most, maybe 3 times if people don't care about the recoil, being at most 12% just from recovering with it. Mindful thoughts of recoil being a bad thing, people will refrain from using it unless we don't have a DoubleJump or TripleJump, & proceed to use Flare Blitz hoping to stage-bounce off the side & UpB.

How many times would we use Flare Blitz to hit with succession (preferrably on stage)? As many times as we:

• read wake-up rolls away or forward
• punishing their landing whether from an airborne juggle to landing
• when they recover & ledge-snap, we play passive-aggressive ledge-guarding them with FB for any of their get-up options
• proceed to edge-guard them off-stage with F-air, RAR Bair, D-air, or N-air, hypothetically we miss our input, then use Flare Blitz to cross-up, hitting them while they recover. This requires knowledge of their recovering tactics & exploiting them.
• The rare occurrence we successfully land a F-air on them off-stage, followed by a Flare Blitz immediately after to score a very early off-screen KO. Flare Blitz would be used to stage-bounce off the side & proceed to Jumps+UpB

Bottom Line Answer: At least 5 times throughout a match given there's that many opportunities to utilize. 5 times succeeded in landing hits = 45% self recoil, but when they're used for possible reads & landing KO's, very much worth it. Plus the power of the % damage they deal in the first place.

 

[CourageHound]

Here is a match I had about a week ago. While this is not exemplary Charizard play at all, as this was the second or third time I even held smash 3Ds in my hands, let alone new Charizard, I believe I can help with some of the topics. Or at least contribute in the discussion.

Spoiler

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/b/569922683?t=3h44m12s

In this game, I switched over to Charizard seeing as my opponent switched to Pikachu(Game 3). My thought process was that I would be able to outpace the Pikachu as well as have an easier time surviving and killing. However due to my unfamiliarity with Charizard's new style and conversely, my opponent did main Pikachu in Brawl, not everything went as planned.

The match starts off with the pikachu taking to the air and letting loose thunder jolts. While I did manage to maneuver around them at first and land a couple grabs, due to a poorly placed aerial the pikachu was able establish a couple strings.

03:44:40 - After the Pikachu down-smashed my shield, I attempted to punish with up-tilt. Little did I know that u-tilt's new animation doesn't hit as low as it did in brawl(or at least I think it did). Regardless, Pikachu's small frame allowed it to evade the attempted punish entirely.

Since I'm on the topic of OoS options, I think CHarizard's best ones are Jab, D-tilt or Up-B.

After I get punished from the whiff, I am hit back into the air. From there I attempted to commit with an aerial landing options and proceeded to get punished. From my experience, Charizard's only good offensive landing options are Flamethrower, or n-air(if spaced correctly). That or simply using your jumps to land away from your opponent

03:44:52 - Here I opted to use flare blitz. I did this because I knew at this range I would:
A. Out prioritize any options Pikachu could have used.
B. Rebound off the pikachu to the safety of the ledge if I hit him or his shield
C. Safely soar right past him if he spot dodge

In this case, I went right above his head, so I guess that worked out. After the Pikachu turned to punish, I replied with a grab and up-throw(Seismic Toss). Based on how the throw sent Pikachu, I thought I would be able to follow up with Flare Blitz, but it sadly did not connect. Thankfully after the whiff, I was able to get back to the stage without using Up-B

03:45:31 - Here I attempted to stuff an aggressive option or spot dodge with rock smash. However, the Pikachu rolled behind and up-tilted(which did nothing due to Rock Smash's new Super Armor). After I was attacked and send offstage, I attempted to Flare Blitz back. I chose do this because I felt recovering low would leave me susceptible to angled t-jolts and gimp my recovery. To my surprise, a single t-jolt intercepted flare blitz...which it weird. Need to test its properties more.

03:46:19 - After the t-jolt hit me, I think I just might have been able to fly back to the stage, but I was already holding left in order to angle myself to the stage. Thus, I was t-jolted before fly activated and the input ended up being flare-blitz under the stage.

03:47:00 - Here, I used Fly OoS. The roll was actually an attempt Fly, but it came out right after all the same. I'm happy say that Fly is actually a reliable kill move, anti-air, OoS option, and GTFO move in the game .

03:47:16 - This f-air should have been safe, but I messed up the auto cancel(3Ds controls X-x). If I recall correctly, f-air is Zard's only auto cancellable aerials. Would be super useful if b-air auto-canceled too, but I guess good tils make up for it.

Shortly after a couple exchanges the commentator says that dash attack isn't the really most optimal option to punish. I agree. Alternatively I could have opted for a grab or spaced rock smash. Doing nothing for the possibility of a roll read could have been nice too.

03:47:33 - Here I attempted to Fly OoS again. It doesn't seem like the pikachu got hit at all and instead actually up-tilt’d. Unfortunately it seems that the backside of Fly lack a hitbox(or at least one large enough to hit pikachu from behind. On the bright side, this does confirm super armor returns to Fly.

03:47:49 - Here after the first Flare Blitz connected I used another one right after. It wasn't intended to hit, but rather to traverse the stage faster to where Pikachu was. Admittedly it was a poor option. One of the things I believe I must teach myself is patience when utilizing Flare Blitz to return to the stage. It's so very enticing given the speed, massive distance and power if your opponent collides with it. However, there is obviously the recoil damage, recovery lag, and possibility to not being able to return to the stage if you accidentally use mistime it.

Shortly after I use Flare Blitz again in an attempt to recover, neglecting my jumps. Again I was punished for it.

03:48:17 - After being hit into the air, my failure to select an appropriate landing option proved fatal. Under pressure, I failed to consider falling with a timed air dodge instead of an aerial, or drifting away to the ledge and negotiating my way back on-stage.

As far as the matchup vs Pikachu goes, I believe patience and proper option selects are your most valuable assets. Projectiles can be a nuisance(but not too much of a problem) and Pikachu's small frame lets him evade attacks more easily.

Recovering and landing seem to be the biggest things I need to figure out. Charizard's air speed isn't all that good and all aerials have landing lag so it can be somewhat of a chore to land and escape juggles vs some characters. Also charizard might have trouble low or at mid-height. Not sure, since I haven't played much myself and don't own a personal copy of smash4.

You guys have any ideas for what other options Charizard can utilize?

 

[Masonomace]

Here is a match I had about a week ago. While this is not exemplary Charizard play at all, as this was the second or third time I even held smash 3Ds in my hands, let alone new Charizard, I believe I can help with some of the topics. Or at least contribute in the discussion.

Spoiler

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/b/569922683?t=3h44m12s

In this game, I switched over to Charizard seeing as my opponent switched to Pikachu(Game 3). My thought process was that I would be able to outpace the Pikachu as well as have an easier time surviving and killing. However due to my unfamiliarity with Charizard's new style and conversely, my opponent did main Pikachu in Brawl, not everything went as planned.

The match starts off with the pikachu taking to the air and letting loose thunder jolts. While I did manage to maneuver around them at first and land a couple grabs, due to a poorly placed aerial the pikachu was able establish a couple strings.

03:44:40 - After the Pikachu down-smashed my shield, I attempted to punish with up-tilt. Little did I know that u-tilt's new animation doesn't hit as low as it did in brawl(or at least I think it did). Regardless, Pikachu's small frame allowed it to evade the attempted punish entirely.

Since I'm on the topic of OoS options, I think CHarizard's best ones are Jab, D-tilt or Up-B.

After I get punished from the whiff, I am hit back into the air. From there I attempted to commit with an aerial landing options and proceeded to get punished. From my experience, Charizard's only good offensive landing options are Flamethrower, or n-air(if spaced correctly). That or simply using your jumps to land away from your opponent

03:44:52 - Here I opted to use flare blitz. I did this because I knew at this range I would:
A. Out prioritize any options Pikachu could have used.
B. Rebound off the pikachu to the safety of the ledge if I hit him or his shield
C. Safely soar right past him if he spot dodge

In this case, I went right above his head, so I guess that worked out. After the Pikachu turned to punish, I replied with a grab and up-throw(Seismic Toss). Based on how the throw sent Pikachu, I thought I would be able to follow up with Flare Blitz, but it sadly did not connect. Thankfully after the whiff, I was able to get back to the stage without using Up-B

03:45:31 - Here I attempted to stuff an aggressive option or spot dodge with rock smash. However, the Pikachu rolled behind and up-tilted(which did nothing due to Rock Smash's new Super Armor). After I was attacked and send offstage, I attempted to Flare Blitz back. I chose do this because I felt recovering low would leave me susceptible to angled t-jolts and gimp my recovery. To my surprise, a single t-jolt intercepted flare blitz...which it weird. Need to test its properties more.

03:46:19 - After the t-jolt hit me, I think I just might have been able to fly back to the stage, but I was already holding left in order to angle myself to the stage. Thus, I was t-jolted before fly activated and the input ended up being flare-blitz under the stage.

03:47:00 - Here, I used Fly OoS. The roll was actually an attempt Fly, but it came out right after all the same. I'm happy say that Fly is actually a reliable kill move, anti-air, OoS option, and GTFO move in the game .

03:47:16 - This f-air should have been safe, but I messed up the auto cancel(3Ds controls X-x). If I recall correctly, f-air is Zard's only auto cancellable aerials. Would be super useful if b-air auto-canceled too, but I guess good tils make up for it.

Shortly after a couple exchanges the commentator says that dash attack isn't the really most optimal option to punish. I agree. Alternatively I could have opted for a grab or spaced rock smash. Doing nothing for the possibility of a roll read could have been nice too.

03:47:33 - Here I attempted to Fly OoS again. It doesn't seem like the pikachu got hit at all and instead actually up-tilt’d. Unfortunately it seems that the backside of Fly lack a hitbox(or at least one large enough to hit pikachu from behind. On the bright side, this does confirm super armor returns to Fly.

03:47:49 - Here after the first Flare Blitz connected I used another one right after. It wasn't intended to hit, but rather to traverse the stage faster to where Pikachu was. Admittedly it was a poor option. One of the things I believe I must teach myself is patience when utilizing Flare Blitz to return to the stage. It's so very enticing given the speed, massive distance and power if your opponent collides with it. However, there is obviously the recoil damage, recovery lag, and possibility to not being able to return to the stage if you accidentally use mistime it.

Shortly after I use Flare Blitz again in an attempt to recover, neglecting my jumps. Again I was punished for it.

03:48:17 - After being hit into the air, my failure to select an appropriate landing option proved fatal. Under pressure, I failed to consider falling with a timed air dodge instead of an aerial, or drifting away to the ledge and negotiating my way back on-stage.

As far as the matchup vs Pikachu goes, I believe patience and proper option selects are your most valuable assets. Projectiles can be a nuisance(but not too much of a problem) and Pikachu's small frame lets him evade attacks more easily.

Recovering and landing seem to be the biggest things I need to figure out. Charizard's air speed isn't all that good and all aerials have landing lag so it can be somewhat of a chore to land and escape juggles vs some characters. Also charizard might have trouble low or at mid-height. Not sure, since I haven't played much myself and don't own a personal copy of smash4.

You guys have any ideas for what other options Charizard can utilize?

So saying this now, I tried watching the stream & there was some delay & skipping spikes of latency when watching the video, so unfortunately I'm not able to give any help on critiques, so I can only go off by what you posted. . . but I'd like to ask if you've tried OoS+USmash, & if you have, what's it like? Because Brawl Charizard's USmash's first active hit-box frame was on frame-6, being one of the best OoS+USmashes in the game. When you mention about OoS Fly being a great option, is Jump Canceling the UpB necessary to use OoS+Fly?

You said

03:47:33 - Here I attempted to Fly OoS again. It doesn't seem like the pikachu got hit at all and instead actually up-tilt’d. Unfortunately it seems that the backside of Fly lack a hitbox(or at least one large enough to hit pikachu from behind. On the bright side, this does confirm super armor returns to Fly.

Did you try B-reversing the Fly OoS? I admit Charizard's backward hit-box of Fly depending on the direction he commits to doesn't have any hit-box on his back side, so yeah. That's all I got.

 

[CourageHound]

Just to clear any possible confusion, I meant that the Pikachu u-tilted me in response to fly. Not that I myself used up tilt.

To answer your questions; no i didn't think to up smash OoS. Yes you must jump cancel Fly OoS. Yes, I tried to b-reverse the Fly OoS when the pikachu hit the back of my shield, but my circle pad didn't seem to aggree with me.

 

[Hong]

Good thread. Charizard is at a massive deficit for attention (and thus development), so hopefully we can get the ball rolling.

Stickied, at least for now.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

First off, I would like to thank everyone for the positive feedback regarding the thread. As I am in school right now, I am unable to fully reply to everything posted above. However once I get home I'll be looking through everything and going from there. I'm glad to see some discussion here as well. I have a regimented plan for how I would like to kick things off for Charizard's metagame development. As Hong said, Zard really needs some attention. So I'm here to help. Looking forward to working with everyone.

 

[WingedKnight]

Count me in, once my copy arrives. Eager to see what Charizard is capable of.

 

[CourageHound]

Ignore this

 

[Second Power]

I'm rather interested in how soon the IASA frames on Charizard's dash end are. IIRC, his speed is on par with Pikachu's and his dash attack is lackluster, so that could be a nice tool.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

That was an interesting set to watch.

It seems like a lot of the punishment you received just came from mis-timing moves and a few poor option selects (which is fine because we need to figure out what works and does not). Like whiffing Rock Smash is definitely going to get you punished, even with the Super Armor. It doesn't have the range it did in Brawl so you have to use it more pre-emptively than before. Its great still for stuffing approaches but you have to be faster with it since the hitboxes got nerfed pretty significantly.

Patience and some serious baiting/mindgames are whats going to win the day in this MU. That match does a pretty good job of showing that even though we can be combo'ed we can still always bring it back with some proper punishes. Our OoS game appears to be solid though not amazing. There seems to be something for most situations you'd want to respond OoS though. But Jab, D-Tilt and Fly for big punishes is are reliable tools. I just wish our grab game allowed for more follow ups. And as mentioned U-Smash looks like a good option. You might also want to test it OoS from both the front and the back.

Lastly: I'm quite curious about FB interacts with projectiles. This is actually going to be a pretty important topic. I think T-Jolt behaves differently in the air compared to the ground but its definitely something that piques my interest. Actually anything that just stops FB is going to be of interest because of the recoil and whatnot. That was a good match to upload. It was pretty different from a lot of the other ones I've seen on YT so far.

 

[CourageHound]

Thanks, thanks. I played a good deal of Zard the other day as well but forgot to test certain things and I didn't get a chance to make it on stream, however I did manage to find out a couple more things.
General: Zard's comback factor, like you said seems to be pretty stellar this time around. 6th heaviest in the game with great recover, a good supply of reliable kill moves, decent speed, and armor to boot does make him very tanky if you will.

Specifics:

• F-smash seems to have some have some super armor
• Flare blitz snaps the ledge both during startup and the actual active attack animation
• Up throw, while not having any guarenteed followups, can put us in a somewhat favorable position
• down throw seems to be a reliable kill throw at say 125-ish %
• down smash in smash 4 as opposed to brawl, now sends opponents at around a 40 degree angle rather than straight up. This imo is fantastic because on top of veritical vectoring being easier and thus a less effective kill option in some circumstances, the new horizontal knockback allows for better edge guarding opportunities.
• down air seems to be able to kill off the top(if opponents rebound off the ground) at a high enough percent
• Flamethrower while being very buffed in this game also received a nerf. This is due to a mechanic that pushes back the attacker if they are using multi-hit moves. Presumably to prevent wall locks. However I think this is only vs grounded opponents. This was apparently when I used flamethrower to land while recovering. I successfully landing with my back to the ledge and my opponent being continually singed by flamethrower. However after a moment or two I was actually pushed off the stage myself and onto the ledge due to the new mechanic.
• Nair is buffed signifficantly. In brawl it was simply a cartwheel with negligible range. In this game, in addition to the body box, charizard's tail extends along with the flame during the entire front part of the attack. I made a poor demonstration in paint just to show better than I can tell.
  Spoiler
  I hope this an accurate illustration because it would be incredibly cool if it is. +1 landing tool

I think that's about it for now. While I feel as though I may have forgotten a few things or may have misinterpreted some of the details, we'll all have the game in a fews days or so anyway.

Super excited!!

 

[ImaClubYou]

I would limit myself to using Flare Blitz ONLY for tech chases and landing lag aside from recovery. Of course, stylin on my opponent is something that happens naturally as a long time Falco player in Melee.

If Flamethrower can break through projectiles(aka not lasers), then Chari already has something to fight back the competition of campers. DHDs main projectile is the frisbee and the can(at least from current gameplay) and the frisbee is easily destroyed by a Falco laser and the can will be multi hitted right back DHD. DHD side B also is useless since it can also be knocked down. The only character I would actually worry about camping me out is actually Villager. He seems to have a good mach up against Chari. He can pretty much hide behind his tree and avoid Flare Blitz all day.

Another thing I want to mention is Charizards new Up throw, though cool, is useless. Never kills, only does 8% fresh, doesn't combo into anything.

 

[CourageHound]

I can actually vouch for the Villager statements. I played against one, and it's verrry annoying. It's like a game of cat and mouse where villager runs away while camping, and it's a chore to catch him.

However while I am overall disappointed with the new up throw, I think it could possibly have some usefulness. Since it doesn't really send your opponent anywhere, it means you'll always know where they are going while you maintain frame advantage. Possibly read their reaction. It also has potential for a doubles combo throw since the others take too long/leave Zard vulnerable. I also have this idea that it might be able to plant an opponent on a platform above you based on the knockback and trajectory.

I'm optimistic.

 

[Hong]

The advantage of the Flamethrower self push-back is that this occurs even on-shield. The recovery is decent enough that you can be really cheap with it. Movement, a lot of projectiles, shielding, rolling... it covers A LOT of options in a very specific area. Hopefully it will neutralize some of the control spells characters have, namely PK Fire, Arcfire and Arcthunder.

@ ImaClubYou Well, Flare Blitz is also good for attack reads. Charizard is vulnerable before and after, but the actual attack will go through a lot. Even something as harmless as an ftilt from the enemy can be read and punished upon prediction. That said, I will agree that we need to remain disciplined when it comes to Flare Blitz. Unless you've grabbed a ledge, you basically lose control of your character for a few seconds after use, and a few seconds feels like forever in a fighter.

@ CourageHound Can't say much for the new upthrow. Feels like a missed opportunity from the developers for what should have been a good kill move, and instead having dthrow focus on damage/combos. As for actual uses, if you want to force your opponent to the top platform from the centre of battlefield, there is that. Hopefully on the Wii U version we'll have more stages with a wider variety of platform layouts. Town and City come to mind.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Forgive me, I've disregarded teams play in all this. However, I feel more moves become viable in teams when you think about it.

FSmash looks so much better imo. It's fast, apparently has super armor, and just overall looks so so so ferocious. Hair flip fsmash, ftw.

Down throw is as strong kill wise as in Brawl? Sign me up. As ashamed as I am to say it, whenever I did boot up Brawl and played Chari, for a lot of games I couldn't net in that kill unless I down threw. Guess I'm just a scrubby Brawl player, lol.

Down Smash... Idk. From what I've seen, it's super slow on start up compared to Brawl. I hope it has a hitbox on the jumping portion of it.

Charizard has a spike/meteor. Nice, always a plus.

Aerials as approaches are also a concern to me. From what I've seen, none of them auto cancel from a short hop. Unless people haven't done it right and it needs perfect execution, I'm hoping nair, fair, or even up air can auto cancel.

@ Hong : Didn't realize it had armor on it. This changes a lot, actually.

 

[CourageHound]

@ ImaClubYou F-air is his only aerial that auto cancells on short hop.

While back air would have been nice as well, fair does serve well on it's own for both approaching and retreating.

Also, Zard doesn't hop anymore on down smash. Just stomps i believe. Startup isn't that bad.

 

[Hong]

@ Hong : Didn't realize it had armor on it. This changes a lot, actually.

Or does it?

So far all we can say is it has a lot of priority, but claims and observations on its armour have been inconsistent. That said, it can be stopped with the most pitiful of projectiles. If I had to guess, it has armour shortly after it starts and it fades towards the end. That said, I won't make any definitive claims without testing, Unfortunately, I don't own a copy of the Japanese version and only borrowed it on weekends, so we'll have to figure this out after the NA launch.

 

[CourageHound]

The claims of Zards armor are really weird. I've been told from various people that he has armor on random moves, including tilts.

However, @NickRiddle recently told me that large characters have some type of constant light armor. Not really sure.

 

[Hong]

Well, keep in mind that armour is not always absolute. It can also be a subtractive sort of deal. Example: Yoshi's double jump.

Bowser in this game inherently has a little armour all the time. Very weak attacks won't cause him to flinch at low %s, because his armour value is greater than the launch value of those attacks. As soon as Bowser gets to higher %s, a lot of those attacks have enough launch force, so he will start flinching.

It is possible Charizard has some subtractive armour. Inherent subtractive armour, though? I haven't heard of that.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think that the new property of Flamethrower pushing us back, actually helps our zoning and keep away game. Especially on the ground because Charizard isn't really a character made for poking and boxing with people. Flamethrower, his tilts, Jab, occasional but very well placed Rock Smash and carefully placed retreating Fairs/Bairs all play a role in this. I don't mind the change. Big characters need a good zoning game to stay current. Its just nice Zard has a few GTFO options (albeit risky in some areas)

In regards to Up-Throw, it reminds me of Dedede's in terms of functionality. Not really damaging, doesn't combo into anything but puts them above you. This kind of throw is probably best used as a mixup. Yeah, they're above you and typically being above people in Smash is a bad situation for most characters...but its not a game breaker. This might be more effective against characters who struggle landing though. But I think in general purposes, it's probably best used as a mixup to possibly expose some nervous habits. F-Throw and D-Throw are going to be our better throws.

In regards to aerial approaching, as mentioned, Fair autocancels. It has low startup, good range and power. Its definitely going to be our main aerial spacing tool. Nair and Bair are also going to be nice. Those abilities alone do a good job and at covering the bubble around Charizard (our personal space/zone) If we're going to be fearful of anything in the air, it should be people with really fast and/or up airs and anyone who has really good aerial acceleration that can Bait/Wait us out. Charizard's options against people below us are on the weaker side. And of course being a fat boy exaggerates this weakness further. One thing that I notice from Charizard gameplay is that people are going to need to be comfortable switching gears a lot. By that I mean that is that good Charizard players are going to be largely defined by knowing when to switch things up between ground and aerial play. In addition, Charizard has a strong defensive game when he's not under heavy projectile spam. Yet he also has the speed to really scare people and go on the offensive. A good Charizard player is going to need to know how to properly balance all of these considerations.

For example in the video with CourageHound, he spent a lot of time in the air against a character who has inherently faster aerials and the ability to go from mid-range to close range very quickly, and relies heavily on juggling and strings. I noticed in certain exchanges (especially during the first stocks), grounded combat and spaced zoning/anti air tools were much more effective while willing engaging Pikachu from a neutral position to the air, put him in some undesirable situations (such as eating Up Airs). These are going to be matchup specific discussions though. Even when a character has a lot of options, not knowing how/when to use them can still get you in a lot of trouble.

Also: I will be editing the OP soon and cataloging these discussions. Great stuff so far by the way. This is definitely what I was hoping for from this thread's creation.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Watching a stream... Charizards nair does auto cancel if done correctly. Still waiting on Uair's confirmation. I feel we may need to be on Battlefield as a tech chase to see that option come out and judging by these guys, Battlefield ain't comin out soon.

I also just witnessed a Charizard use 3 Flare Blitz before landing and still manage to recover on stage. Funny stuff.

Bair's sweetspot is incredibly strong. It's a killer edgeguard for a lot of the cast actually. It moves Charizard in an angle that can perfectly hit a recovering Link without taking damage. You can bet characters with no hit box on their up b's will have a grand time, too. The thing kills you at pretty low percents and by that I mean like 90, lol

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Okay so here are my own personal observations after playing Zard for a while. These are organized in no real matter as its still early here and I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee yet:

- People think that Fair is really good. It is. But Nair is AWESOME and let me explain why. The range and lingering hitbox on this thing is really impressive. You can catch people with this move in a lot of situations and in some cases frame trap as it autocancels. With a little timing, this can still hit people after their airdodge or spotdodge. And you really want to land Nair with its later hitboxes instead of early on. Because this move Autocancels and has such a long hitbox, we have FRAME ADVANTAGE if this connects. I don't know how much yet, but I've been able to land Jabs, Tilts and Grabs after a AC'ed Nair. And I've been able to do while facing the opponent and facing away. I haven't figured out which is better for frame advantage yet tl:dr version is, we have follow ups from Nair. Also...at higher percents, this move can force hard knockdowns and set up tech chase situations. Flare Blitz anyone? I'm telling you: THIS is our best aerial. Some of you were saying how its a bad thing Nair lost its knockback. NOOOOOOO. We have enough kill moves, we NEEDED the new Nair.

- Anyone who has to approach Charizard is in for a tough Rock-Paper-Scissors fight. Charizard's excels at spacing and midrange play. Flamethrower's pushback is pretty useful tbh. Fair is still good, Rock Smash (conservative, smart use...), AC'ed Fair, Full Hopped retreating Bair and AC'ed Nair all play a role.

- Charizard's platform pressure game is really strong. Nair once again will really come in handy. U-Tilt, U-Smash are also very useful. Charizard is very good at controlling a lot of space. And kind of similar to Project Melee, no one wants to be under Charizard.

- Charizard has a staggering amount of viable kill moves. Flare Blitz, F-Smash, Sweetspotted Bair, Fair (but will likely be stale in a lot of matchups due to it being a great aerial spacing tool), Uair (much better than Brawl's), Down-Throw are all really handy. U-Smash OoS is also useful. Fly OoS is useful in certain situations but if you miss it, its going to hurt. This is something you'll want to practice. I'm not using Down Smash as much right now as it seems quite unsafe.

- Fast characters with strong combo/juggle games are going to be tough matchups. Sheik, Sonic and a few others come to mind. Charizard doesn't chase well but excels when the opponent has to approach him as he has a lot of viable spacing and zoning tools.

- Sweetspottted Bair is godlike off stage. The range and power of this move is stupid. As mentioned before, it can kill a lot of characters comfortably in the 90-100% range off stage. NEVER Short Hop this move unless you are absolutely certain you can land this (i.e a laggy move on your shield) because the end lag on this move is atrocious if you whiff it. At least in the air, you have enough range to stay somewhat safe.

- As predicted: Charizard has issues dealing with being juggled. This is going to be one of the first things we'll have to discuss as a community. In really bad situations, I've just been Flare Blitzing as a "DIP!" tactic. But I want to explore this weakness more and figure out ways to bypass it.

- Flare Blitz is everything I wanted to it to be. This move IS worth it. You just can't be reckless with it. High level Charizard play will definitely focus on how precise/skillful we are in our use of Flare Blitz. This is not a move we can throw out ad hominem. Also make sure you're practicing how to ledge snap with Flare Blitz everytime instead of hitting the side of the stage (that's 5% we should not be taking). But we'll need to figure out which enemy moves are laggy enough to react with a Flare Blitz and we'll need to figure out all of our tech chase setups.

- We have Super Armor on several moves and all of them are strong. A small but important part of leveling up with Charizard will be focused around how to properly utilize Super Armor. We're really heavy; we don't mind trading because trading is almost always in our favor.

- After playing Charizard for a while, I realize we need our frame data more now than ever. Someone really needs to get on this. Or maybe I'll just do it.

- Oh I almost forgot (this is kind of a big deal): We may or may not have frame advantage with Jab 2. I need to test this but I've been Jab canceling to Grab on people pretty consistently. On lighter characters at low percents around 20-50 and heavier ones around 60-80 ish. Jab is actually pretty good this time around. If its not guaranteed, we at least can follow up from Jab 2 off a read. Either way, it'll definitely help his close up game. This needs to be tested more. I think we actually do have frame advantage though.

More random stuff:

Down-Tilt at very low percents will force a hard knockdown on people, thus setting up for a tech chase situation. Yes, this means more Flare Blitz. It helps that down-tilt is pretty safe as well.

That's it for now. (I have more to discuss at a later date) Any questions?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

- After playing Charizard for a while, I realize we need our frame data more now than ever. Someone really needs to get on this. Or maybe I'll just do it.

I second this. I'd really love to see some frame data so we can get solid tech info.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I have soooo many questions that can only be properly answered with hard facts and numbers. As I am in school, have a web design internship and work, I am a super busy guy. But I'll probably end up finding some time to do this anyway lol

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

But you definitely have your priorities straight. Take as long as you need, and I'm sure midway through someone else could get some of the frame data themselves and collaborate with you.

 

[Masonomace]

Any questions?

Indeed TC.
Questions:

1. How would you rate Zard's grab-game? I ask this being a PT main from Brawl & Zard's rush-down being a ground fighter was exceptional for catching landings with his long standing grab but not-as-long dash grab.
2. You say several, but exactly how many moves in Zard's move-set does he have Super Armor (excluding Grab Armor)? I remember Brawl Zard having Super Armor on the start-up of Fly but that's about it.
3. Do you think it's funny Dthrow does 1% of damage? Or that's incorrectly unfunny to me.
4. What is Zard's FH > Dair input like, does it have a disjoint below him? Brawl Zard had huge disjoint on his buffered FH > Dair input hitting characters on the ground including this tiny puffball:

Positive feedback:
I enjoyed your personal typed observations, especially about Nair because Nair is love & Nair is life. Also glad his Utilt greatly improved to cover a lot more area especially when his wings huddling together basically looks like a platform you can stand on.
And that the Flare BLitz ledge-snapping point you made is well-said, because it's not only safer & the more obvious choice to make when recovering for the ledge, but it's one of those small improvements that when made go a very long way.

 

[CourageHound]

I'm glad my diagram of nair was on point . Busy now, but will be able to discuss later.

 

[Oatkeeper]

I started using Charizard on a whim and realised that I can actually use him quite well, although I'm still rubbish. A lot of the time I end up SDing as I'll sometimes accidentally use FB instead of Fly. Looking forward to seeing more information about his moves as he's a potential main atm.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So I entered a local event and got 3rd today with mostly Zard. Basically, I lost to Greninja lol. In addition to posting some observations about today, I'll also answer those questions directed at me. Most likely tomorrow. I've got some work related stuff to handle. My peers are impressed I can work Charizard but they think he's bad. My goal is to prove otherwise.

I'll be on tomorrow to follow up. Feel free to keep adding to the discussion whether it be a comment or question.

 

[Masonomace]

So I entered a local event and got 3rd today with mostly Zard. Basically, I lost to Greninja lol. In addition to posting some observations about today, I'll also answer those questions directed at me. Most likely tomorrow. I've got some work related stuff to handle. My peers are impressed I can work Charizard but they think he's bad. My goal is to prove otherwise.

I'll be on tomorrow to follow up. Feel free to keep adding to the discussion whether it be a comment or question.

This sounds like that Ivysaur scenario I had with people in Brawl & Project M, except that Ivy in P:M is pretty damn solid so they hate me for that.

Much respect for the goal, I believe half of my questions got answered for myself by just watching a few matches of Trela playing Zard. Though some still remain, I'll pretend that they still need answering & would like your answers anyways.

 

[Hong]

It's the shurikens that bother me the most. Aside from that, I don't mind the MU too much.

Which is not to undersell the Water Shuriken. For a simple move it's really good at shutting down anyone at a range.

 

[-LzR-]

Anyone else have issues with SH fair whiffing sometimes on grounded opponents? Is there a blindspot on the hitbox or something? Most of the time the hitbox is impressive and then it fails me.

 

[Whookie]

I think I might know what you're talking about -LzR- if the one you refer to is when you're really close to your enemy. I was wondering why my Fair missed sometimes but hit on another.

I tried 2 things on FD mode Mushroom kingdom since the floor has blocks to measure distance. Standing as close as possible to the enemy at both times. The first was to short hop straight up and tap forward + A. As in as little a tap as I could. Fair hits the enemy when done like this no matter how close I am. The second time, I still stood as close as possible, jumped but I held forward for a tiny bit longer + A. The Fair doesn't hit like this because I managed to move forward in the air and push the enemy a little bit more so he's sort of hugging you as you Fair.

I used Robin for the test. Charizard's at the left side (left foot forward to measure the distance) and Robin is at the right facing you (Robin's right foot forward to measure the distance).I found out that if you're under 3/4ths a block close to the enemy (basically half a block away to hugging him), holding forward a little too long as you Fair makes it miss. If you jump straight up and tap forward + A, it'll hit even if you're hugging.

On the flip side, as long as you're within 3/4ths to 2 and 3/4ths block away, you can hit the enemy even if you hold forward the whole time. Not sure if this was your same problem but I figured I might as well share mine.

 

[-LzR-]

So if you are too close the fair will whiff? That's understandable. I just need to get better and space properly. Thanks.

 

[Whookie]

Yeah, if you're too close and holding forward for too long. Fair will actually hit no matter how close you are as long as you don't move forward in the air as demonstrated by jumping straight up and tapping forward as little as possible. It's the movement in the air and pushing the enemy that causes it to miss somehow.

3/4ths a block is the shortest I could manage to hit using Fair while holding forward the whole time. I imagine most of us does Fair the same way which is by holding forward first (usually to move closer to the enemy), short jump, immediately press A while forward is still held before letting it go. If you jump half a block away, you'll miss since forward was held too long with that method.

Jumping straight up and then tapping forward ever so slightly is hard to do in a battle so it's not a really viable method for me to connect with Fair most of the time. I'm just going to practice spacing as well.

Edit: Trying to hit just slightly outside the whiffing zone is hard when walking or dashing. Good thing the max range with which it'll connect is pretty big so there's a lot of room for error. Jumping 1.5 to 2 blocks away is easy enough.

 

[CourageHound]

Ignore this.

 

[Masonomace]

Despite Brawl Zard's Fair having a sour-spot doing no knockback, I loved it & thought it was a great gimping tool, so I'm not too impressed with the re-vamped Fair, but it's for the better I guess. It's a preference for me that Fairs start low & finish high, because I don't enjoy whiffing Fairs when the hit-box is a swipe from high to low that doesn't connect all the time versus grounded opponents with SH. I'm gonna be doing SH DI'd left or right Nairs, because spinning is winning.

 

[CourageHound]

I have a friend that mains Greninja. It's been said before, but that matchup seems pretty difficult. Greninja just has the speed, projectile, and combos to capitalize off every mistake and wins the nuetral game with water shuriken. I feel it's doable but you really can't afford to make errors and need to make every hit count.

It's also reall annoying on certain FD stages where the shadow can't be seen. Then Greninja's mere presenc, anywhere on stage is a mindgame.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Indeed TC.
Questions:

1. How would you rate Zard's grab-game? I ask this being a PT main from Brawl & Zard's rush-down being a ground fighter was exceptional for catching landings with his long standing grab but not-as-long dash grab.
2. You say several, but exactly how many moves in Zard's move-set does he have Super Armor (excluding Grab Armor)? I remember Brawl Zard having Super Armor on the start-up of Fly but that's about it.
3. Do you think it's funny Dthrow does 1% of damage? Or that's incorrectly unfunny to me.
4. What is Zard's FH > Dair input like, does it have a disjoint below him? Brawl Zard had huge disjoint on his buffered FH > Dair input hitting characters on the ground including this tiny puffball:

Positive feedback:
I enjoyed your personal typed observations, especially about Nair because Nair is love & Nair is life. Also glad his Utilt greatly improved to cover a lot more area especially when his wings huddling together basically looks like a platform you can stand on.
And that the Flare BLitz ledge-snapping point you made is well-said, because it's not only safer & the more obvious choice to make when recovering for the ledge, but it's one of those small improvements that when made go a very long way.

Thank you very much. And:

1. I think his grab game in this game is pretty average. Although I do think his grab range is decent, nothing really stands out. I was expecting a bit more range on his pivot grab and his dash grab isn't quite like in other games. When I think of a good dash grab game, I think of Greninja. Admittedly, this is an area of interest I want to really confirm though.

2. Rock Smash is number 1 for this. I can't tell you how many times in my sets vs Greninja, I would see an aerial coming and decide to trade with it by abusing Super Armor on Rock Smash. Its a good mixup when you know something is coming and don't mind trading (which is often because Rock Smash offers superior damage when everything hits..and if this is premeditated you should know when to use this move. Btw Rock Smash is underrated. It basically turned from an all-purpose spacing tool, to a niche, really strong punish) Also Fly. Fly has this as well, making it a great OoS/GTFO tool with a proper read. CourageHound pointed this out already but definitely deserves to be mentioned more than once. I've heard rumors about F Smash having SA but I haven't seen it yet. This is also on my investigation.

3. Yes, I do lol. And it might be incorrectly funny but still funny.

4. When Zard does his Dair, his right foot comes down and does the stomp. There's a "sparkle" animation that comes out past his foot and that's where the stomp is. If you're too close or off on your vertical spacing you'll do the sourspot hit. The disjoint you speak of isn't here in this game though. It's pretty standard as far as meteors go but not as good as in prior games.



Also:

It's the shurikens that bother me the most. Aside from that, I don't mind the MU too much.

Which is not to undersell the Water Shuriken. For a simple move it's really good at shutting down anyone at a range.

Well when I beat the Greninja in Winner's a nice chunk of that was because he kept charging the Shurikens and Flare Blitz eats through them so I was able to just **** him with Flare Blitz and chase him/frame trap him. The second time around though he started waiting and baiting more and didn't charge his Shurikens..that's when I started having issues. Our neutral game isn't good (its not bad either but there's certainly better) in general and against a character like that, we have a lot of trouble getting to where we need to. BUT, once we can get in mid range play our game, I think we can keep up with Greninja. After pretty much playing almost entirely Greninja in tourney, I'd say its a -1 MU right now. I'm convinced we lose it, but I don't think we get ***** so I'd agree with you. I also just had some stupid option selects and technical errors with it only being Day 2 on a 3ds console lol. I'm eager to try that MU again. Greninja just has a good neutral game and some favorable hitboxes. But he's not impossible to handle.

Basically what Hound said: It's winnable but you have to keep your mistakes to a minimum because it takes less for Greninja to gain momentum.