Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Deathwish238]

for some weird reason i've been playing zard the most, this coming from a former sonic main in brawl...anyways...

everybody obviously has their quirks and different play styles, for me what i've noticed are the following...

1 - awesome off stage killer. This by far is his strongest asset.

I've read technical_chase's and other ppl's tips on this thread and applied them and it helped a lot. One nair is all it takes to kill lil mac and other poor recovery characters. I've found that nair covers the most space and stays out the longest, the idea is not to blow them away but just give them that one awkward hit that they're in that lower 45 degree angle with no shot of coming back. This game is so skewed of killing ppl off stage, this is what is going to separate the men from the boys in competitive play. With two aerial jumps and gimping being nonexistent i believe this is what makes him the most special, not to mention that a fair/bair off the stage will easily kill.

2 - Flamethrower, the bread and butter.

this allows him to always be able to poke when you're a roll away from your opponent, i normally jump towards somebody with that distance in mind and let loose. Granted, not much damage, but that's not the point, the point is to pester your opponent. This gives you a tool where you don't have to commit in a game where shield grabbing is king. Especially when you do it to somebody near a ledge, they hardly have any options.

3 - short hopped auto cancelled nair.

into 1,2,3, or grab or w/e else technical_chase mentioned. it's good stuff, i have a bad habit of only 1,2,3'ing but since a lot of ppl tend to shield grab it works out.

Obviously flare blitz is nice when used properly, his grab range is fine, bigger than most chars. my biggest gripe is, by god, they just ruined that seismic toss didn't they sucks...i still use it to be cool but at the end of the day if i really want to win i almost never do. i'll have to experiment with it more because early % throws might put you in a favorable position, but im not sure yet.

and forward smash DEF has armor, idk what the circumstances have to be but it definitely does. maybe it's only his head part when he has low %.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I learned yesterday that Charizard can completely ignore Duck Hunt's projectile spam with Flare Blitz. Only use it if Duck Hunt as you in a bad position though. Unless you're at a really high percent, FB will eat the Clay Pigeon and Gunman. I think the Can too.

Also, meteoring Duck Hunt as he tries to recover with Up B is really good too.

 

[Thatsa]

and forward smash DEF has armor, idk what the circumstances have to be but it definitely does. maybe it's only his head part when he has low %.

I feel the same way. Something is going on there.

 

[KT]

alright, gonna say this quickly as someone who only has been playing 3DS for a total of 5 hours.

flare blitz is awesome. but conserve it also. obviously you really don't want to be using it at 100% or so as a recovery move, otherwise it leaves you wide open for an earlier KO. just something i found so far.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Rock Smash is such an underrated tool especially when you have a stock lead. A lot of people still have no idea that it has super armor plus it's very hard to punish when spaced correctly. Also seems to combo into Fair at certain angles. Not sure if it's a legit combo but against a Yoshi I was able to net multiple kills from Rock Smash > Fair.

 

[Rafitak]

Do you feel that it's better than his other customs?

 

[The Real Gamer]

I haven't even experimented with his customs yet.

Regardless I'm 100% satisfied with this new Rock Smash.

 

[Coffee™]

Rock Smash is such an underrated tool especially when you have a stock lead. A lot of people still have no idea that it has super armor plus it's very hard to punish when spaced correctly. Also seems to combo into Fair at certain angles. Not sure if it's a legit combo but against a Yoshi I was able to net multiple kills from Rock Smash > Fair.

Agreed. It's also incredibly annoying to anyone hanging on the ledge as it covers a ton of options there.

 

[Whookie]

Not sure if it should go here or if everyone already knows it but I might as well post it if it can help at least one person.

You know all those Charizards who kill themselves by accidentally flare blitzing off the stage? That should never happen as long as you're standing on the platform because of 2 things:

1. Charizard's double jump gives you enough height to reach the ledge of the stage if you time it right
2. Charizard's Flare Blitz has enough horizontal distance to bring you back to the stage

If you accidentally Flare Blitz off the stage, jump once as soon as you can to face the stage, jump once more at the peak of your 1st jump but as you hit the jump button, immediately activate Flare Blitz towards the stage. Activate it too late on the 2nd jump and you miss the ledge. Activate it just right and you'll snap the ledge.

On stages where the stage extends all the way down (Mushroom Kingdom For Glory), you can just slam your head against the platform and up+b to grab the ledge. Lots of room for error on those stages. For those stages with thin platforms like Final Destination and Pokemon Stage, proper timing will save your butt.

The only time you'll die is if you're 1 step away from the edge and you flare blitz off since the distance it travels delivers you all the way to the boundary. If you're about 2 steps away (or for most people 3-4 steps away), you can easily get back if you don't panic. Hope this helps anyone who accidentally suicides by Flare Blitzing off the stage.

Edit: I may have missed some stages where the horizontal blast zone is smaller. For those stages, being 2 steps away might kill you as well. Gonna test which ones have smaller horizontal boundaries if there's any.

Edit 2: Tried it on every stage (For Glory version). As long as you're 2 steps away, you can always get back on every one of them. No more suicides for us.

 

[kunimitsu877]

well from what ive seen so far she looks good(ive always associated charizards as being femminine since i was a kid and since this 1 has not officially been confirmed male or female ill be using female pronouns) so far shes alot faster and even jumps alot higher now but overall our girl has improved

 

[Alphatron]

D tilt doesn't seem as fast as it used to be and I end up clashing with a lot of attacks when I use it. I'm assuming it doesn't have a sweet spot anymore?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

It'a a decent attack but it's not as good as it was in Brawl. And to my knowledge, no, it does not have a sweetspot. It does have a blind spot if you're too close though so watch out for that.

Also guys, I know that I mentioned this in the other thread but Jab 2 Cancel > Fly = profit. It seems to work best on light characters at high percents when the hitstun is enough for you to take advantage of their DI. But this is especially gold on fat characters. Especially the ones with large frames (which is pretty much all of them...). Even with DI, it's REALLY hard for them to avoid Fly because of their larger hurtox meaning you can land Jab at about 150% on Bowser and kill him with Fly afterwards. (sooner if you're by the edge of the stage) I've been having a lot of fun tearing people up with this.

 

[-LzR-]

Is there an actual Jab cancel or do you mean just simply not doing the 3rd one?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Simply not doing the 3rd hit. I've been looking for Brawl style jab cancels but no luck.

 

[-LzR-]

Does the crouching cue still work?

 

[iVoltage]

Hey I know it doesnt have to do with zard himself, but I keep on doing the dash attack over and over when I try to get close to somebody. It gets me punished a bunch too, anyone know how to stop quickly enough to do a tilt instead of a dash attack on this circle pad?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Hey I know it doesnt have to do with zard himself, but I keep on doing the dash attack over and over when I try to get close to somebody. It gets me punished a bunch too, anyone know how to stop quickly enough to do a tilt instead of a dash attack on this circle pad?

You can stop your dash by flicking the pad downards which will put Zard in a short sliding animation. During this animation you can cancel it by performing any move you want including forward tilt, jab, and forward smash.

This is an extremely important tool for a lot of characters so I'd suggest hitting up Training Mode until you get it down.

 

[iVoltage]

You can stop your dash by flicking the pad downards which will put Zard in a short sliding animation. During this animation you can cancel it by performing any move you want including forward tilt, jab, and forward smash.

This is an extremely important tool for a lot of characters so I'd suggest hitting up Training Mode until you get it down.

Thanks so much I'll get right on that!

 

[Valzy]

What do you guys think of Charizard's custom moves? I'm a fan of Fireball Cannon and Blast Burn. Fireball Cannon has a ton of range, while Blast Burn is basically a better version of Flare Blitz

 

[The Real Gamer]

How exactly is Blast Burn better? One of the best aspects about Flare Blitz is the crazy horizontal range it covers. It's both a great offensive and defensive tool.

Plus Zard already has plenty of great close range KO options... he really doesn't need Blast Burn considering how risky/slow it is.

 

[Valzy]

How exactly is Blast Burn better? One of the best aspects about Flare Blitz is the crazy horizontal range it covers. It's both a great offensive and defensive tool.

Plus Zard already has plenty of great close range KO options... he really doesn't need Blast Burn considering how risky/slow it is.

IDK, I mostly play classic and Blast Burn plus Max Attack equipment wrecks everything

 

[Davregis]

IDK, I mostly play classic and Blast Burn plus Max Attack equipment wrecks everything

Stat changes aren't allowed by competitive rules...People play a little differently than CPUs as well, they try to zone you out sometimes.

 

[Blast Burn]

Hey guys. I've been yearning to main Charizard since he got revealed but immediately upon playing him, I noticed that everything he does feels so laggy, most notably shorthopped aerials. I know one is supposed to auto cancel to reduce this lag, and I've been looking around to try to learn it.

According to the wiki,

Auto-canceling occurs when the character lands at the earliest or last frames of an aerial attack. This causes the character to land with normal landing lag (usually 4 frames) without any additional lag from using the attack.

I've tried testing this and getting it down in training mode, but I can't really tell if it's working or not, which leads me to believe I'm doing it wrong. Does anyone have any advice regarding this?

 

[tencoth]

So I was messing around with charizard in training mode and I just wanted to clear something up. Charizard's F-smash doesn't just have super armor, it has invincibility on frames he hits you. White flash and everything. I'm not entirely sure what this means, but I F-smashed through 4 b-bombs without taking a lick of percent. So, yeah, it doesn't protect you on start up but you pretty much can't beat it out.

A couple other things. Up throw to f-air at zero is a good, 20% combo, You can act out of back throw the moment you finish the animation, which could lead to chases/traps/air dodge reads. You can do his alternate side B, dragon rush, to probably do some combos after up throw at higher percents. not as powerful as flare-blitz but it seems to have some good utility.

 

[Davregis]

eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/charizard/

I certainly hope these change over time.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I would personally advise you and everyone else to take such lists with a grain of salt. Our community has always felt the need to categorize everything even in the Genesis of a new metagame. Many things area uncertain/undiscovered right now. Definitely pay attention to trends and what others are saying about characters. But don't take those tier lists seriously right now. WE know Charizard is far better than that. They don't know yet...but they will. Very soon. Represent, and develop and the rest will follow.

 

[ripa9]

It's pretty much a fact, Charizard is too laggy and slow. I'm still waiting people to prove me how would he have a chance against the top tier characters.

 

[WaffleCone]

It's pretty much a fact, Charizard is too laggy and slow. I'm still waiting people to prove me how would he have a chance against the top tier characters.

He has an auto cancelling Nair, his jab comes out on frame 5, which fits within the standard of 3-6 frames. And, im not quite sure on this one, but if it comes out on the same frame as brawl, his grab comes out on frame 6 as well.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm waiting for someone to bring up valid points that extend beyond "He's laggy and slow".

 

[ripa9]

He has an auto cancelling Nair, his jab comes out on frame 5, which fits within the standard of 3-6 frames. And, im not quite sure on this one, but if it comes out on the same frame as brawl, his grab comes out on frame 6 as well.

Those have no range and they're just not enough. There's not enough options for him. It would be different if he was faster and less laggy, but since he's slow, it's way too hard to land those quick moves. You can't position yourself properly to land them. When your opponent goes aggressive, it's way too difficult to dodge, then hit him.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

Not sure if anyone has said/found this, but Bthrow into Flare Blitz works in an odd way. The EXACT moment they are thrown and leave your grasp, you can go right into flare blitz. doesn't seem to work with his other throws though. If the opponent doesn't dodge it, Flare Blitz has no problem hitting them after the throw either, at the right percentage of course

 

[-LzR-]

I actually believe Charizard belongs somewhere in the bottom 10 characters. It's really hard to explain. Charizard really seems solid but I can't actually think of many characters who would be worse. I think Zelda, Little Mac and Megaman are definitely bottom tier, but those 3 are the ones I can think of and say that Zard is better without a doubt.
However I don't care either way if Zard is good or bad. He is a badass and I'll process to kick ass regardless.

 

[ripa9]

Not sure if anyone has said/found this, but Bthrow into Flare Blitz works in an odd way. The EXACT moment they are thrown and leave your grasp, you can go right into flare blitz. doesn't seem to work with his other throws though. If the opponent doesn't dodge it, Flare Blitz has no problem hitting them after the throw either, at the right percentage of course

Yay, more side B spam!

I actually believe Charizard belongs somewhere in the bottom 10 characters. It's really hard to explain. Charizard really seems solid but I can't actually think of many characters who would be worse. I think Zelda, Little Mac and Megaman are definitely bottom tier, but those 3 are the ones I can think of and say that Zard is better without a doubt.
However I don't care either way if Zard is good or bad. He is a badass and I'll process to kick *** regardless.

Kick noobies' a**es. I don't enjoy that at all and that's the only thing you can do with Charizard.


I have the rights to complain, I wanted Charizard to be better, but he's just not. Spam B and side B, and bump them a little with Nair. Not fun.

 

[-LzR-]

I have to agree that I was expecting something more from Charizard and this is what I got. At least it seems you are not disappointed at the game like I am?

 

[ripa9]

I have to agree that I was expecting something more from Charizard and this is what I got. At least it seems you are not disappointed at the game like I am?

I am. ._. Extremely disappointed.

After experiencing Brawl Hacks, this game is just a waste of potential. Wii U version should be completely different. +100 characters, lots of dlcs and balancing. Totally possible. Never going to happen.

 

[-LzR-]

Well then that means you are in a pretty bad situation. You have to make a difficult choice: Deal with it or just let it go and do something else.

 

[Valzy]

Stat changes aren't allowed by competitive rules...People play a little differently than CPUs as well, they try to zone you out sometimes.

Why aren't they? They add a lot of variety to the game, and many have interesting side effects. It seems strange to ban something that could add a ton of new strategies to the game.

 

[-LzR-]

It complicates the game to the point where we will end up having a D&D rulebook for every tournament because everyone uses different rules and everything. It doesn't really add that much to the game anyways and it forces people to grind out those stat boosts for their games. I prefer they stay as something you can use for fun or in MMs but not tournaments.

 

[Valzy]

I have to agree that I was expecting something more from Charizard and this is what I got. At least it seems you are not disappointed at the game like I am?

I really love Charizard, but his attacks are so damn slow and I never understood why it has Rock Smash

 

[Steeler]

Charizard is broken online... every aerial but nair kills, dsmash has a ridiculous trajectory and is great for catching rolls, utilt is amazing for covering the space above you, your grab game is solid and has good range, b reversing rock smash or flamethrower can cover your landing very well, in addition to nair... and flare blitz is obviously amazing.

Charizard is good overall, but when you can't react to his stuff, it's stupid.