Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[The Real Gamer]

Hey guys. I've been yearning to main Charizard since he got revealed but immediately upon playing him, I noticed that everything he does feels so laggy, most notably shorthopped aerials. I know one is supposed to auto cancel to reduce this lag, and I've been looking around to try to learn it.

1) Both rising SH Nair and Fair auto cancel as long as you don't fast fall.

2) Jab has great reach, comes out very fast, and can even confirm into grabs/kills.

3) Both Fly and Up Smash are great kill/OoS options that come out fast.

Combine these 3 techniques into your game and Zard isn't as nearly slow/laggy as you'd think anymore.

We really need frame data...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

1) Both rising SH Nair and Fair auto cancel as long as you don't fast fall.

2) Jab has great reach, comes out very fast, and can even confirm into grabs/kills.

3) Both Fly and Up Smash are great kill/OoS options that come out fast.

Combine these 3 techniques into your game and Zard isn't as nearly slow/laggy as you'd think anymore.

We really need frame data...

Agreed.

Also I'm working on the frame data mission. I think its gonna answer a lot of questions we all have about this character.

 

[Kayeka]

Wait, up smash is actually good? To me it seemed like it's hitbox was too small, and the end result was rather weak. I used up tilt instead.

Am I missing something?

 

[-LzR-]

Usmash can be done out of shield and has a decent hitbox in front of Charizard.

 

[Kayeka]

Righto, thanks for that. I haven't quite gotten around to learning OoS actions, so I didn't know that yet.

 

[Christhewolf63]

I feel that Flamethrower is now a huge and important part of Charizard it brings the match to your speed if only for a moment offering relatively safe pokes zoning and stopping power that being said
many people are also underestimating his Jab and Nair his jab us fast and ends at a good angle for follow ups and the Nair can be really really good if you practice the tight spacing

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from the worst in the game.

But yeah, this is why I don't even go to eventhubs anymore. Anyone can vote at anytime. When a new game is released, people go bonkers and judge things WAAY too quickly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah don't listen to a publicly votable tier list.

Granted what it does show is the players overall view of the tiers of the characters. That said Charizard being bottom 5 is a joke.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Charizard feels like he can make it to lower high tier if frame data AT and custom moves work out in his favor.

Also, I've been getting a lot of kills on for glory with the walk off FAir. Comes out very fast and can gimp recoveries if you hit them right as they double jump, which is actually possible (for now) since they don't expect that kind of speed.

 

[Arklos]

Wow, I feel like a complete rookie compared to some of you guys just based on the details that you on Charizard. And I'm not too sure if it's already come up or if it's already well known, but with his up tilt and his up smash, his wings are invincible, making him unsafe for most characters to drop down on him if you can time it right.

 

[Kmon]

You're not the only newbie here Therefore: No I didnt know about his wings being invincible thanks for the info. General question: most of the times I want to tilt I accidentally smash. How to avoid that?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Has anyone else noticed that Dtilt seems to have IASA frames? I'll have to test this out more but this is great if true.

 

[Christhewolf63]

Testing down tilt now

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Has anyone else noticed that Dtilt seems to have IASA frames? I'll have to test this out more but this is great if true.

This was on one of my notes. Still testing it myself.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Just wanna say whoever in this thread mentioned about jab->jab>up b is an amazing person because I'm having so much fun catching people online off guard with this. <3

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Just wanna say whoever in this thread mentioned about jab->jab>up b is an amazing person because I'm having so much fun catching people online off guard with this. <3

You can thank me by ****** more people with it

 

[Christhewolf63]

I've heard that Mew2king runs zard sometimes anybody have videos? That guy sees **** in frames and the characters deeper than most so if he's onto something there's true hope

 

[Kayeka]

I've heard that Mew2king runs zard sometimes anybody have videos? That guy sees **** in frames and the characters deeper than most so if he's onto something there's true hope

... I am honestly not sure what to feel about this.

On one hand, I'm happy that my chosen main might actually be viable on the competitive scene. On the other hand, I'm kind of sad that this might mean everyone and their granny starts running 'Zard because Maw2King does it.

Well, might as well get it over with: "I mained Charizard before Mew2King made it cool!"

 

[Christhewolf63]

I've mained Zard since pm... so if people jump on the bandwagon we are the pioneers and we'll play as such! experience and innovation will give us more than enough edge over bandwagoners

 

[KAB1]

m2k said charizard is just ok. I doubt he will main him

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

m2k said charizard is just ok. I doubt he will main him

Pretty much this. I don't think Zard is gonna be one of those bandwagon characters. I think we'll probably always a have one of the smaller communities unless we actually turn out to be high tier. Even so Rosaluma, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Lucario and many others will have a much bigger following of people using them as pocket characters.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Another thing is that Charizard is pretty risky to play aggressively with and you have to be patient with him, which probably makes him hard and unappealing to most. A lot of the more popular characters are really safe and easy to use for the most part.

Probably why he's so underrated, too.

 

[Remzi]

It's hilarious how bad people think Charizard is. Many list him in the bottom 3 or 5, which is absurd. He gets the same disrespect in PM, and is a BEAST in that game. All good with me though, the less people playing him, the more I can thrive off of matchup inexperience, and that goes a long way.

 

[Whookie]

Is there any value in fast falling SH auto-cancel Nair? At first, I thought it was bad to fast fall it because it made Charizard land on his butt for more delay but after accidentally fast falling and still auto-cancelling, I realized there's a small window of time you can do it. It feels faster when I'm looking at it at 1/4th speed but I'm not sure if it really is faster or if it has a big use like following it up with a guaranteed jab combo.

At x1 training speed, dash -> SH AC nair -> jabx3 gets counted as a 4 hit combo against Olimar at 15% damage but at 1/4th speed, it gets counted as 1 hit followed by 3 hits. But when I do the fast fall properly, it gets counted as a 4 hit combo even at 1/4th speed. The same holds true for 2/3rd speed.

It carries the risk of fast falling wrong and getting more delay so I just want to make sure there's value in doing it because I'm not sure.

 

[Darthrai]

Another thing is that Charizard is pretty risky to play aggressively with and you have to be patient with him, which probably makes him hard and unappealing to most. A lot of the more popular characters are really safe and easy to use for the most part.

Probably why he's so underrated, too.

I agree. Though custom Charizard with Dragon Rush and Rising Cyclone can be played more offensively. Dragon Rush is actually spammable since Charizard doesn't take any damage and recoil (and doesn't bounce off shields), and Rising Cyclone has a pretty big hitbox and more KO power than Fly.

Default Charizard does have to be played defensively though. I had lots of trouble against Shulk and Lucina, and I'm only starting to learn short techniques. Just like Bowser, shorthopping into Flamethrower is a good approach option. Also, use his tilts a lot (something I fail to do).

 

[-LzR-]

Is there any value in fast falling SH auto-cancel Nair?

It is not much, but it's a bit faster than not fastfalling it. It will save you a couple frames for each Nair. As you get better these couple frames will be invaluable. It is absolutely worth it to learn the timing.

 

[Banryu]

Hey all I was reading through the topic and was curious about people's input for one of the topics that (I think) has yet to be addressed-- secondary characters that mesh well with Charizard. In particular it seems like quick characters such as Sheik and Greninja give Zard a lot of trouble.

 

[Shog]

You know, I wish I could show my replays, because I think there are 3 saving graces for aggressive charizard:

Number 1, Flamethrower
This one is obvious: It is a ranged weapon which can stop approaches from your enemy and can be angled too to stop silly Mario F-Airs

Number 2, the Tilts
I swear to god Up, Side and Down Tilt are incredible: First one makes Charizard invincible for most enemy attacks and you can juggle them easily and, what I like most, Hard Read Punish them if they try to airdodge with, I dunno, FLAREBLITZ(that's the most fun part of it). Down Tilt Range and usefullness is ridicolous: It is like having a F Tilt from Lucina to space against enemies. I think we can also avoid some attack from enemies, too.
Side Tilt is somewhat laggy but still incredible useful, and if you angle it you can cover more range with this attack

But the Number 3 is the real kicker: Rock Smash
The Super Armor on Rock Smash, coupled with the huge hitbox is so important in Charizards Play. It allows you to approach if you get juggled, it allows you to recover more easily if air dodging isn't an opti...wait, to sum it up: Rock Smash is like a offensive, high risk high reward Air Dodge basically(and oc you get damaged by enemy attacks with super armor)

And finally:
How exactly does Nair cancel works? I can't seem to get the hang of it. Maybe someone can explain how a proper Nair cancel looks like.

 

[JJBro1]

Not sure if this has been noticed but you can just walk over to people who are hanging on the edge and spike them with a down smash. This at least worked on bowser not sure about smaller characters.

 

[Davregis]

It seems pretty difficult to consistently land Nair sweetspots... Anyone have any luck with that?

 

[JJBro1]

GOD ****ING DAMMIT LITTLE MAC!!!!!!
What are you supposed to do??? You approach he counters, he's faster that ****ing charging move has super armour, you get trapped in his ****ing neutral a, he can just super armor through rock smash. WTF!!!! And is it just me or does every single new character have a counter move?

 

[Banryu]

Dealing with Little Mac:
Step 1 - Back toward the edge of the stage
Step 2 - If he Haymakers: sidestep and watch him fly off the stage.
- If he does anything but Haymaker: Shieldgrab and throw him off the stage.
Step 3 - Gimp his recovery with practically anything (Nair will probably do for Zard)
Step 4 - Profit

Most Little Macs I've seen on Wifi are dumb enough to fall for this at least the first time. Otherwise, just stick to the edges and wait for an opportunity to get Mac off the edge or into the air. If he's not on the ground, he's at a disadvantage.

I'm not even that good but it seems pretty elementary to me ragebro

And if the Mac player is countering you a lot, it means he/she is reading you and you need to find a way to switch it up and not be so predictable. Start baiting counters and then grab/throw him into the air. Also, correct me if I'm wrong somebody, but I'm pretty sure Rock Smash is uncounterable, since you counter the initial hit and the residual rock bits still hit home, interrupting the counter (that might just be the FE peeps so again, correct me if I'm wrong). If that doesn't work then nevermind, but if it does then can that be a good way for dealing with counter-spammers, maybe?

 

[JJBro1]

Dealing with Little Mac:
Step 1 - Back toward the edge of the stage
Step 2 - If he Haymakers: sidestep and watch him fly off the stage.
- If he does anything but Haymaker: Shieldgrab and throw him off the stage.
Step 3 - Gimp his recovery with practically anything (Nair will probably do for Zard)
Step 4 - Profit

Most Little Macs I've seen on Wifi are dumb enough to fall for this at least the first time. Otherwise, just stick to the edges and wait for an opportunity to get Mac off the edge or into the air. If he's not on the ground, he's at a disadvantage.

I'm not even that good but it seems pretty elementary to me ragebro

And if the Mac player is countering you a lot, it means he/she is reading you and you need to find a way to switch it up and not be so predictable. Start baiting counters and then grab/throw him into the air. Also, correct me if I'm wrong somebody, but I'm pretty sure Rock Smash is uncounterable, since you counter the initial hit and the residual rock bits still hit home, interrupting the counter (that might just be the FE peeps so again, correct me if I'm wrong). If that doesn't work then nevermind, but if it does then can that be a good way for dealing with counter-spammers, maybe?

Here's one of the matches that I played against that little mac. I wish I had enough room to record the rest of them since they were more frustrating than this one which I'll admit I made some mistakes that I can only blame on myself. This wasn't a noob playing little mac this guy knows what he's doing.

 

[Banryu]

Here's one of the matches that I played against that little mac. I wish I had enough room to record the rest of them since they were more frustrating than this one which I'll admit I made some mistakes that I can only blame on myself. This wasn't a noob playing little mac this guy knows what he's doing.

It looks like you basically played pretty well here, getting him into the air and juggling him like you did was definitely the correct way to deal with Mac; it seems like your mistake was being too aggressive on the second stock. Mac player did a lot of sitting and letting you come to him, and was able to respond in kind. He was definitely good, and by the look of things you're not terrible or anything; it seems like playing more defensively is probably safer against Mac. TBH it seems like you just got frustrated/flustered, and yeah that definitely happens, I know the feeling.

Despite my overly-patronizing dickishness from above aside, it looks like bringing Mac up was probably a good point, though.
Anyone else have some thoughts on this matchup? I feel like Charizard should have the advantage as long as we can figure out the right time to shield and the right time to SS dodge in order to get Mac into the air (and granted even then there's some mindgames that have to take place thanks to his Counter, but still).

 

[Whookie]

And finally:
How exactly does Nair cancel works? I can't seem to get the hang of it. Maybe someone can explain how a proper Nair cancel looks like.

You mean auto-cancel nair? If you press A immediately after shorthopping, you'll land without landing delay. If you do it wrong/too late, Charizard lands on his butt for more delay. It has a lot of room for error compared to AC fair which is done the same (immediately inputting fair after a shorthop).

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Sorry for being MIA this weekend...I had a really rough week/weekend so I just needed time to myself. I'll be resuming my normal duties around here.

 

[yoyowoodchuckguy]

So, I've been playing as the Zard and really enjoying it. I've been doing decently well with him on For Glory, here are a couple things I've learned.

- Rock Smash is AMAZING. Most of you probably already know this, but I thought I'd just put it out there. Using it as you would use a counter has gained me great success.

- F-smash is like Yoshi's in that it causes Charizard to pull his body back, and then lunge forward. I haven't tested it much, but you could potentially use this as a sort of spot dodge followed by an incredibly strong kill move.

*EDIT- So, I was playing a pretty good Rosalina in For Glory today, and I noticed something interesting. This player was using their Luma shot to try and edgeguard me. I figured out that if you aim it right, you can go OVER the Luma shot with Flare Blitz and still hit Rosalina. I feel that this could be very important in this matchup, as we pretty much just get a free hit anytime they try to charge and release Luma, since the Luma charge can't be cancelled with a shield.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Have a few things on my mind. First, have players been trying to incorporate dodge canceling with Charizard? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY
Basically, it means that we can cancel the lag that results from Short Hop air dodging (SHAD?) with Charizard by pressing A just before we land. If this is the auto canceling you've all been talking about, please forgive me.

But this made me think about all the options Zard has out of a SHAD, and I think he has more utility with it than most:

1) First, even if you do not do the A while landing, doing a special move after a SHAD will cancel all lag and go immediately into a special. So...
-A slower alternative to SH flamethrower with invincibility?
-Instant Flare Blitz' to catch people trying to roll away from a flamethrower?
-And my personal favorite: an invinciblish jump into the invinciblish ROCK SMASH! (Does Fly have armor in its beginning?)

2) once we factor in dodge canceling, we get some more basic utility
-Shielding and rolling upon reaching the ground.
-RCG (roll-cancel grab) to counter shields anticipating FF/FB
-going right into Zard's good A options: dilt pokes, SA/tech chasing smashes, and of course jab.

 

[Steeler]

Fly has armor at the beginning, yes. I just learned about the dodge cancel today, so I'll have to try it out...

With Little Mac, always watch for when he uses a double jump. The instant he double jumps, any attack you do will put him in huge trouble, especially fair or bair. nair is especially great off stage because it will beat air dodges. On stage, you have to bait him. You can't commit to anything slow or moderately unsafe, because he can punish so quickly. Shieldgrabs and dashgrabs are your friend and put him in a pretty bad position. Flamethrower is good in spurts. Rock Smash and Flare Blitz aren't that great because of his super armor and counter. I'd have to test if we can punish his ftilt with a tilt out of shield, that seems like his safest poke.

 

[CommanderVimes]

I wonder if I'm having second thoughts on my SHAD ideas, as a friend tells me short hop air dodging is just a worse roll.

I have faith though, since he hasn't played sm4sh yet, and I think it is a safish way to mix up your approach and tempo. Last night I did have it work well in baiting all sorts of things with Ike (SHAD into roll, counter, or dtilt), but my opponent wasn't great. I'll have to wait until a better player than me tries using it against someone at a similar level.