Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[spazsquirrle]

If you're unfamiliar with the Jump Canceled Rock Smash I'd highly suggest you watch the following video:

It's a piece of tech every Zard main should learn, and it's fairly easy to get down with some practice.

Yea I've got that down pat, just didn't understand the OOS portion when peopled talked about it. So for the OOS sliding rock smash would you just shield then do the move?

 

[The Real Gamer]

The correct input for a OoS JC RS would be...

Shield Drop (release R) --> JC RS (down B + whatever your jump button is --> quarter circle left or right on your stick)

You're just inputting the JC RS as soon as you release your shield button.

 

[M-Z]

Just used charizard for the first time today since brawl and wow he is really good. That pivot rock smash is insane, caught so many people off gaurd with in in for glory

 

[RadianB]

Hey, Charizard's DSmash hits lower than Little Mac's. Do we have another edgeguarding tool?

Yes, I use it a lot. The timing is difficult due to Charizard's down smash having a short active hit box but it definitely hits below the ledge and works well against characters like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Bowser.
Charizard's Forward Smash also hits under the ledge as well and since it has invincibility it's really good especially against someone like Shulk who doesn't instantly grab the ledge with his Up B.

 

[-LzR-]

Charizards downwards tilted Ftilt also hits below the ledge.

 

[Davregis]

Charizards downwards tilted Ftilt also hits below the ledge.

Immediately below Charizard, I believe DSmash actually hits lower than dtilted Ftilt(?)

 

[RadianB]

I forward smashed a Rosalina from under the stage today during her Up B and killed her at a really low percent, it was pretty funny. The guy was really good too.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Pretend you are playing Street Fighter. Never jump unless you have a good reason for it. Zard aerials are great but not for the purpose of spacing. His tools are more for punishing and trading with things. And Zard is godly on the ground.

Can you tell me what you mean by Zard is godly on the ground? What are some of his good approach/neutral options? I'd love to agree with you, but usually when I play against slightly faster characters and up I get rekt on the ground :/

 

[-LzR-]

Can you tell me what you mean by Zard is godly on the ground? What are some of his good approach/neutral options? I'd love to agree with you, but usually when I play against slightly faster characters and up I get rekt on the ground :/

It's mostly about Zard being much much better on the ground than in the air. His air to ground is terrible.
Try to do an upward angled Ftilt to eat approaches. Abuse your super armor. Zard is about not giving a **** and beating them with your superior weight. You will beat trades.

 

[Davregis]

Let's talk about Perfect Pivots and how bad they are for Charizard.

His is undoubtably one of the worst, but the ability of others to safely whack the shield ruins Charizard's fantastic OoS.

 

[RadianB]

I haven't seen anyone use perfect pivoting in a proper match, are people actually using it in competitive play? It seems like it'll break your analog stick if you do it too much.

 

[Zauron]

In the main competitive character discussion thread I've seen dtilt to Flame Blitz mentioned as a safe kill option, but when trying it just now in training mode I couldn't figure out how to get the dtilt to lead into Flame Blitz, can anyone explain how this works? I figured out the other option mentioned, jab->jab->up-b, but not this one.

Also, why do people say Charizard's OoS game is so good anyway? What are the best ways to take advantage of this apparent strength of the character?

 

[Rashid]

Flare Blitz, not Flame Blitz. I can't say I've tried that combo. It feels too good to be true.

As for his OoS options, he has a lot that can cover different scenarios. Nair has a big range, Up B has some armor on it and is fast, Up Smash has intangible wings and also comes out fast. You could also try a jump cancelled down B OoS, but it won't have that slide shown in the above video. It's just JC to avoid the shield drop lag. And, of course, shield grabs.

 

[-LzR-]

In the main competitive character discussion thread I've seen dtilt to Flame Blitz mentioned as a safe kill option, but when trying it just now in training mode I couldn't figure out how to get the dtilt to lead into Flame Blitz, can anyone explain how this works? I figured out the other option mentioned, jab->jab->up-b, but not this one.

Also, why do people say Charizard's OoS game is so good anyway? What are the best ways to take advantage of this apparent strength of the character?

Dtilt to Flare Blitz is not a combo, but a setup. Dtilt forces them to either tech or fall on the ground. Any option they choose will get stuffed by Blitz. Just watch out that this will get beaten by waiting out the Blitz. If they start to wait for it that means you have time to get close to them to setup your techchase game as they are afraid of choosing an option.

His OoS is really good because he has 2 killmoves out of it: UpB and Usmash. Usmash coming out in 6 frames while being able to be jump canceled from shield make it actually faster than a shieldgrab to come out. This is insanely awesome. You need to choose if you want to abuse the amazing OoS ability or save it for a really easy kill when the time comes.

 

[Davregis]

His OoS is really good because he has 2 killmoves out of it: UpB and Usmash. Usmash coming out in 6 frames while being able to be jump canceled from shield make it actually faster than a shieldgrab to come out. This is insanely awesome. You need to choose if you want to abuse the amazing OoS ability or save it for a really easy kill when the time comes.

USmash does a good 17% and launches nearly vertical for Charizard's juggle game, while Fly kills earlier than FSmash while fresh. USmash for damage & juggle, then Fly for the kill seems legit

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah usmash is really good, the only problem with it is that sometimes it doesn't link into the second hit. If you can react to it, you might be able to grab or jab them or something though.

 

[RadianB]

If you press jump just before you preform an Up Smash out of a dash you'll slide a tiny bit further than normal. This works with all characters I think.

 

[King Kong]

I haven't seen anyone use perfect pivoting in a proper match, are people actually using it in competitive play? It seems like it'll break your analog stick if you do it too much.

I'm busy trying to get it down so it feels natural when I'm in a match. I think it'll be much more gentle on the analogue stick than dash dancing was in melee.

Speaking of perfect pivoting, I'm having a hard time deciding whether to have my C-stick set to tilt or smash. With tilt, you can occasionally catch someone with a pivoted U-tilt, which can lead to some nice damage. With smash, you can pivot a D-smash, which is effective as an anti-approach option and gives it a little more utility as a punish. Has anyone else been trying these out?

 

[Rashid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE
Supposedly Charizard already has a huge down smash. Maybe this'll make it even better?

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE
Supposedly Charizard already has a huge down smash. Maybe this'll make it even better?

Wait you can do it with jabs too? That should definitely be useful, charizard has a really good jab

 

[Davregis]

Rock Smash can be wavebounced, and the direction of the shards doesn't change to meet the rock's direction if done so.
The large rock is smashed in one direction but the shards fly out backwards, giving some small coverage.

EDIT: B-Reverse, not wavebounce

 

[Zauron]

Rock Smash can be wavebounced, and the direction of the shards doesn't change to meet the rock's direction if done so.
The large rock is smashed in one direction but the shards fly out backwards, giving some small coverage.

Sometimes I lose track of all the new technique names (probably because I skipped Brawl and have been playing Melee this whole time until Smash 4 came out). Which one is a "wavebounce" again?

 

[Davregis]

Sometimes I lose track of all the new technique names (probably because I skipped Brawl and have been playing Melee this whole time until Smash 4 came out). Which one is a "wavebounce" again?

Turns out it's also a B-Reverse, not a wavebounce ^.^;

Rock Smash, then slide the circle pad in the direction opposite you're facing. If you do it fast enough, you'll turn around and your aerial momentum will also reverse.

EDIT: As luck would have it, wavebouncing also reverses the shard direction.

 

[Zauron]

Turns out it's also a B-Reverse, not a wavebounce ^.^;

Rock Smash, then slide the circle pad in the direction opposite you're facing. If you do it fast enough, you'll turn around and your aerial momentum will also reverse.

Oh that. Okay, yeah, I knew about that one (not about it messing up where the rock shards come out from though, that's interesting).

 

[Davregis]

What are you guys's goals when playing Charizard?
It's often said that he's a punish character, but this can't be true because essentially everyone at the top of the scoreboard (and most at the lower end ;>_>) are much better at punishing, baiting, and getting conversions off hits. He has a moderate set of zoning tools (Flamethrower, Nair, antiair Rock Smash), but not enough to play full zoner. His a2a game is outright fantastic given positional advantage, but some characters (Marth comes to mind) beat him out easily. He has loads of disjoints but lots of lag and a decent albeit low-ranged OoS game. His tools to beat zoning are good for a heavy, and Flare Blitz is a great tool for many situations, but after ~30 hours match time with Charizard I find I still don't really know what to do with him.

Now of course I'm getting a little discouraged, but as this is the first Smash game I've started to take seriously I accept that this is merely a road to improvement which will come in time. The closest parallel to Charizard I see in another game is Vega of SFIV specifically, whose goal is to poke away and stay in the neutral game as long as possible. Unlike Vega, however, Charizard does not dominate the neutral game. How does this character work for the rest of the board, and what are goals to follow?

 

[Rashid]

What I like to do with Charizard is just try my best to move away from the neutral game. Even if it's hard to get follow-ups, stage positioning is important, and I've been trying to space Charizard well to be able to either dash grab or ftilt. It's like pressure, but the slow kind. Give your opponent no chance to land or reset to neutral. And if you're under pressure, you have great OoS options to reverse the situation.

 

[RadianB]

I play Charizard offensively. =P Seems to be working so far.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

What are you guys's goals when playing Charizard?
It's often said that he's a punish character, but this can't be true because essentially everyone at the top of the scoreboard (and most at the lower end ;>_>) are much better at punishing, baiting, and getting conversions off hits. He has a moderate set of zoning tools (Flamethrower, Nair, antiair Rock Smash), but not enough to play full zoner. His a2a game is outright fantastic given positional advantage, but some characters (Marth comes to mind) beat him out easily. He has loads of disjoints but lots of lag and a decent albeit low-ranged OoS game. His tools to beat zoning are good for a heavy, and Flare Blitz is a great tool for many situations, but after ~30 hours match time with Charizard I find I still don't really know what to do with him.

Now of course I'm getting a little discouraged, but as this is the first Smash game I've started to take seriously I accept that this is merely a road to improvement which will come in time. The closest parallel to Charizard I see in another game is Vega of SFIV specifically, whose goal is to poke away and stay in the neutral game as long as possible. Unlike Vega, however, Charizard does not dominate the neutral game. How does this character work for the rest of the board, and what are goals to follow?

I treat Charizard as a berserker of sorts. When I take a hit or a combo string as charizard I usually don't get discouraged, as those hits are only fueling the flames of rage. He doesn't have the strongest punish game around AT FIRST, but thanks to his natural heaviness and crap tons of super armor he get definitely get there with rage. Muscle your way into advantage and then stay there. (Of course that's easier said than done...) I try and capitalize every time I get someone off stage cause his off stage game is awesome. At lower to mid percentages don't be afraid to make the hardest of reads cause you won't die. And I feel like we should always be trying to find new ways to apply his specials. they're honestly REALLY GOOD! I've killed people with rock smash and flare blitz in the wackiest of ways that I really didn't think would kill. He's a wild card for sure.

I feel like one of Charizards main problems is that he isn't what people thought he was going to be. He hasn't yet found a notable niche for himself. So then people try and write him off as an all rounded character and that... Just doesn't feel right. He's freakin Charizard, y'know? He more than just an "all rounder". He just takes a little more skill and effort to find his true potential and people don't like doing that (ex: diddy... I hate diddy and I don't care who knows)

Don't get discouraged man. Charizard will come around and see better days in the near future if we Charizard mains put some effort into it, I'm sure of it.

 

[Deathwish238]

What are you guys's goals when playing Charizard?
It's often said that he's a punish character, but this can't be true because essentially everyone at the top of the scoreboard (and most at the lower end ;>_>) are much better at punishing, baiting, and getting conversions off hits. He has a moderate set of zoning tools (Flamethrower, Nair, antiair Rock Smash), but not enough to play full zoner. His a2a game is outright fantastic given positional advantage, but some characters (Marth comes to mind) beat him out easily. He has loads of disjoints but lots of lag and a decent albeit low-ranged OoS game. His tools to beat zoning are good for a heavy, and Flare Blitz is a great tool for many situations, but after ~30 hours match time with Charizard I find I still don't really know what to do with him.

Now of course I'm getting a little discouraged, but as this is the first Smash game I've started to take seriously I accept that this is merely a road to improvement which will come in time. The closest parallel to Charizard I see in another game is Vega of SFIV specifically, whose goal is to poke away and stay in the neutral game as long as possible. Unlike Vega, however, Charizard does not dominate the neutral game. How does this character work for the rest of the board, and what are goals to follow?

i tend to approach with flamethrower and short hop autocancelled nairs into 123 jab or grab, usually 123 jab tho.

out of a full run i short hop into flamethrower which is a good spacing/poke tool forcing my opponents to respect me at that distance even tho it's just for a little bit. if they get hit great, if not i condition them to shield the flamethrower and i hopefully just run up to them and grab.

I also can't stress how good short hop auto cancelled nair is (just do nair really fast and don't fast fall it), since you have no lag on the ground, the majority of opponents will block the nair, wait for you to come on the ground to shield grab you, however, 9/10 i beat their grab with my 123 jab. and then you can mix it up by doing the nair and then grabbing, since the only way how to punish the nair>123 combo is by blocking the entire string so you nair>grab.

and just general stuff like baiting air dodges...waiting...and uair'ing them, or off the stage fair and bair can kill if you get them. I'll see if i can upload a vid of my zard so you can have an idea what i do, i really think he's better than what people are giving him credit for.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Uthrow can actually be useful. As it turns out if you time Megaman's Crash Bomb detonation you can grab Uthrow and kill both players. Ayup. Also works with Kirby and Meta Knight.

--------------------

Just because I could I survived up to like 320% thanks to superarmor. Then I messed up.

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Ugh I keep trying the slide rock smash thing but I keep flare blitzing off the stage

 

[RadianB]

Ugh I keep trying the slide rock smash thing but I keep flare blitzing off the stage

Same here which is why I never use it anymore.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Rock Slide can be good but requires a bit of precision depending on your control scheme and during online there can be lag and we all know how sometimes you input an Up B and a Flare Blitz comes out instead.

 

[Davregis]

I've been having some success with those tips-- thinking of Charizard as 'slow offensive pressure' rather than 'defensive' is huge. Autocancels, hitboxes of some moves, etc. are very good. Thanks, guys!

As a side note, Rock Smash seems to make Charizard the king of neutral a2a(?)

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Same here which is why I never use it anymore.

I'm actually a lot better at it now lol. My main problem is that I over emphasized the need to make sure I press the jump button BEFORE the other inputs. So that overcomplicated it for me and made me mess up on the down B input more than I want to.

Then I realized all I have to do is press down B AND Jump at the same time and it just made things easier. After that then I'd just worry about going forward.

 

[Smog Frog]

since i cant find a better topic to ask this question, is zard actually terrible, or is he suffering first impression megaman stuff?

 

[Boozer]

he would be fine if diddy and sheik and friends didn't destroy him

 

[RadianB]

Diddy and Sheik don't destroy him, he actually stands a better chance against them compared to the other heavy weight characters.

 

[ZephyrZ]

since i cant find a better topic to ask this question, is zard actually terrible, or is he suffering first impression megaman stuff?

He's not terrible. I had a really bad impression at first, but after tons of practice, I found he has some amazing strengths, to.
His Neutral Air is awesome, his Jab Combo is good, and Flare Blitz can serve as a valuable long ranged punishing move.
Oh, and Rock Smash is great, to. It just eats Smash attacks and will usually do at least 15% damage in return.

 

[Jay-kun]

Since we no have Q+A forums (unless senpai~ missed it : I decided to post here.

Question: I was a Metaknight right and got rekt by a Chrizard in a ground-aerial fight,
Thought tu myself:
I have more jumps-and Chrizard looking' so plump how you even move, so I disapproved.
I rushed him thinking a big target is easy to combo but he KO'ed me with 30%,
Bravo!
You lucky noob I'll wreck you now!..I got destroyed and he didn't even use any techs,,
Why does Charizard have to be such a big b***ch?
Should I main this beast of a character,
Or should I at very least improve my Metaknight better?




P.S. I hated to swear but I was desperate for a rhyming word.