Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Davregis]

So what is the disadvantage :/

Haha, that's funny.

less range, less damage, less killing power (in theory ayy)

 

[ZephyrZ]

So what is the disadvantage :/

No STAB and a shaky 75% accuracy. Never use this move in competitive when you can just use Outrage or Dragon Claw.

...Oh, wait, this is Smashboards, not Smogon. Yeaaaah this is why I'm kind of scared of customs in competitive play. We can't always rely on them being very well balanced.

 

[mimgrim]

...Oh, wait, this is Smash. Yeaaaah this is why I'm kind of scared of customs in competitive play. We can't always rely on them being very well balanced.

Boooooo.

But seriously. It's a fantastic move. But it isn't game breaking and it isn't like it sky rockets Zard up that high in placement. But, like AA, I think he is sleeper high tier as is, sooooo...

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

So what is the disadvantage :/

No armor (I think?) and less damage and less raw killing power. However it can still kill in ways Flare Blitz can't or struggles to. Like if you use dragon rush at the ledge it'll carry the opponent to the blast zone regardless if they spot dodge (sometimes, it's all about timing.)

 

[Wonder_Chef]

No armor (I think?) and less damage and less raw killing power. However it can still kill in ways Flare Blitz can't or struggles to. Like if you use dragon rush at the ledge it'll carry the opponent to the blast zone regardless if they spot dodge (sometimes, it's all about timing.)

Does Flare Blitz have armor?

 

[Lavani]

Does Flare Blitz have armor?

It has heavy armor against hits up to ~14%

 

[Rashid]

So what is the disadvantage :/

Joke responses aside, Flare Blitz:

• Does more damage (19% vs 11%)
  
• Travels farther
• Has more raw KO power (DR is better at gimping, or just neutral in general)
  
• Has a small AoE explosion (so you can hit people hiding behind objects or hurtboxes, for example) whereas DR will go through, for better or for worse.
  
• Has some armor on it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh right, I forgot about the armor.

Though I feel like the risk involved in Flare Blitz means Dragon Rush will ultimately deal more damage then FB throughout a match.

But seriously. It's a fantastic move. But it isn't game breaking and it isn't like it sky rockets Zard up that high in placement. But, like AA, I think he is sleeper high tier as is, sooooo...

I'm more worried about higher tier characters that might get insane buffs.

 

[mimgrim]

Though I feel like the risk involved in Flare Blitz means Dragon Rush will ultimately deal more damage then FB throughout a match.I'm more worried about higher tier characters that might get insane buffs.

Nah. Most of the high tier/top tier characters stay about the same with "customs" turned on. Why? Because their default are already created for 1v1 and the customs don't really get all that better or just very minorly better.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

It has heavy armor against hits up to ~14%

So any attack below 14% gets ate my FB? Huh, you learn something new everyday. I still think Dragon Rush is better. I would have said FB was better just a little while ago though. When the game first came out, people were like never ready for it haha. But it seems now people are catching on. It's still a fantastic move though, Dragon Rush is just better for Charizard 1v1. I feel like Flare Blitz is really only useful in recovering and in advantage. Charizard already has a ton of options in advantage, he needs DR to up his neutral game.

 

[Rashid]

Flare Blitz is amazing as a punish tool, or to catch landings. Better yet, just the threat of using it is enough to make people paranoid. Use that to your advantage.

 

[Davregis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

Turns out our FSmash edgeguard might be a little better than thought.

 

[RadianB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

Turns out our FSmash edgeguard might be a little better than thought.

Timing is hard though.

 

[Lavani]

If anything I'd think you'd look to dsmash with that, it hits much further below the ledge.

...much further. I'm actually jealous and impressed with how far down dsmash reaches.

There's a good chance I'm just bad with fsmash/misinterpreting its hitboxes but it seems like it only catches fairly horizontal ledgesnaps.

 

[Kunoku]

"Flare Blitz is amazing as a punish tool, or to catch landings. Better yet, just the threat of using it is enough to make people paranoid. Use that to your advantage."

I just wanted to point out that I love running in front of flare blitz when it's used and punishing so hard when he lands as Sonic. It is extremely satisfying when you see it executed ;-; I've also realized that flare blitz is also extremely satisfying to see when it hits haha

On another note, using flare blitz as a means to ledge snap sounds like it would be hard to punish, maybe a well placed meteor smash? I'm going to go ahead and test that out.

 

[Marthmario]

I love how many people doubt Charizard. They think "Oh, free win" and then I just pop them off the stage and down air them into the abyss.

 

[Deathwish238]

Question about out of shield options.

How exactly do you do it? Just jump ASAP and then input the move that you want to do, in this case Up B, or rock smash, or nair? Can I up smash OoS?

Also can anybody make a vid to see how far zard's down smash hits?

 

[Spirst]

Question about out of shield options.

How exactly do you do it? Just jump ASAP and then input the move that you want to do, in this case Up B, or rock smash, or nair? Can I up smash OoS?

Also can anybody make a vid to see how far zard's down smash hits?

Yeah, you jump then immediately cancel the rest of the animation by doing another input like rock smash or usmash or up B.

 

[Phiall]

I see a lot of people talking about Charizards strengths, which I agree with. But I am having some issues playing Charizard that I don't see many people discussing.

First off, his jumps are horrible and it is made difficult for him to chase anyone vertically without the assistance of platforms. Uair is an amazing kill move that can kill big bodies at low percents pretty easily, however you can never seem to chase anyone vertically to try and follow it up. For example out of his Up Smash it is so hard to get any height to pressure your opponent. Another example is chasing anyone after a high percent throw, if you throw them off the ledge, forward or back, and they have a jump that is decent, it is so hard to do anything to them off stage as you just can't catch them.

Another big issue I am having with Charizard is getting out ranged, and this might be specific to a match I play a lot of Dedede, but there is nothing you can do about his hammer, his jumps make it difficult to get over, it out pokes all your normals, maybe not Forward Smash but that is one hell of a read. Dedede is another example of someone who is crazy hard to kill because of the height in which he returns to the stage.

Also I seen someone mention his Bair a couple posts back and I honestly think this is his best kill move in the air, but it is so hard to his with, it seems to have very few active frames and I feel the hitbox is placed close to the tip of his tail and not so close to his body, it's resulted in me just using Uair.

Again I agree with all the good points about Charizard on this thread and a lot of them have really helped improve my Charizard but I am still having some major issues in making this character a high contender.

 

[Smog Frog]

zard gets dededestroyed by dedede, so its not worth it to judge his weaknesses based on that mu

 

[ZephyrZ]

zard gets dededestroyed by dedede, so its not worth it to judge his weaknesses based on that mu

Those are actual weaknesses, though.

Characters with good spacing tools, like DDD and Zero Suit, are just a pain to approach.
And bad air speed is a terrible thing to have in this game, as not only does it limit your own follow up ability, but it gives your opponent even more follow up opportunities.

I think that when looking for a characters weaknesses, bad match ups may actually be the first place you want to look. They're generally bad match ups for a reason; because they can exploit Charizard's weaknesses the best.

 

[Phiall]

Those are actual weaknesses, though.

Characters with good spacing tools, like DDD and Zero Suit, are just a pain to approach.
And bad air speed is a terrible thing to have in this game, as not only does it limit your own follow up ability, but it gives your opponent even more follow up opportunities.

I think that when looking for a characters weaknesses, bad match ups may actually be the first place you want to look. They're generally bad match ups for a reason; because they can exploit Charizard's weaknesses the best.

I agree, looking at bad macthups helps you figure out the weaknesses your characters has and helps prevent characters from being able to exploit them.

So I was hoping with pointing out these weaknesses, we might find a way of getting around them? I don't really play any other characters in this game at the moment, so switching to a better matchup is not preferred. I've always liked having character loyalty and figuring out bad matchups, and finding ways to win is the most satisfying part.

For the spacing issue I've been using Flame Thrower a lot, but if that gets read, which it does in extended sets, I find myself playing a keep away style which is not too advantages with Charizard.

The only other thing I can think of is the jump cancel Rock Smash and hope to move into range to get through the zoning tools.

As for the followups, I've literally got nothing. I just have to read the opponent, I really wish his throws had less vertical momentum on them.

 

[Shog]

Well...if the air speed is bad, shouldn't we find a way to approach from the ground? Sliding Rock Hurl seems like a beginning.
(Also don't forget Charizard runs pretty fast actually)

I am not a technical person though.

 

[OddCrow]

I've been playing a lot of zard lately. the most effective strategy I've found is to control center stage at all costs. once there, stay planted, be ready to shield or grab or tilt or rock smash any approaches. push a character to the ledge and fish for dthrow to kill.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Sliding Rock Smash only moves Zard so far. It'll help him get forward in some match ups, but I don't think it's gonna get past DDD's f-tilt. I don't fight DDDs that much, so I don't know the match up.

I do end up facing my friend's Link a lot, though, and approaching him is a real pain. Coming from above with Rock Smash is generally how I deal with it. Not ideal because of his air speed and all that, but jumping allows me to get over his projectiles and Rock Smash lets me eat his Up Smash or Up Tilt on the way down. You've can also time it sometimes so that the Up Smash is interrupted before the third hit.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I see a lot of people talking about Charizards strengths, which I agree with. But I am having some issues playing Charizard that I don't see many people discussing.

First off, his jumps are horrible and it is made difficult for him to chase anyone vertically without the assistance of platforms. Uair is an amazing kill move that can kill big bodies at low percents pretty easily, however you can never seem to chase anyone vertically to try and follow it up. For example out of his Up Smash it is so hard to get any height to pressure your opponent. Another example is chasing anyone after a high percent throw, if you throw them off the ledge, forward or back, and they have a jump that is decent, it is so hard to do anything to them off stage as you just can't catch them.

Another big issue I am having with Charizard is getting out ranged, and this might be specific to a match I play a lot of Dedede, but there is nothing you can do about his hammer, his jumps make it difficult to get over, it out pokes all your normals, maybe not Forward Smash but that is one hell of a read. Dedede is another example of someone who is crazy hard to kill because of the height in which he returns to the stage.

Also I seen someone mention his Bair a couple posts back and I honestly think this is his best kill move in the air, but it is so hard to his with, it seems to have very few active frames and I feel the hitbox is placed close to the tip of his tail and not so close to his body, it's resulted in me just using Uair.

Again I agree with all the good points about Charizard on this thread and a lot of them have really helped improve my Charizard but I am still having some major issues in making this character a high contender.

The jumps really are a pain aren't they? Uair is great but it feels wasted since he can't jump too high. I usually just try to wait for them to come down a bit. His dash speed is great, so it takes a bit of prediction but it can be done. If they're at kill percents, try and bait out their double jump then flare blitz them. It's a really reliable way to land fb, one of the useful applications of the move. If you're unsure, flamethrowering their land spot is a safe move just don't over commit. For the offstage issue a lot of the aforementioned moves work here too., once again patient and precise timing is key. The flare blitz chase works in this scenario as well if they're recovering on stage. Also if they're offstage but parallel to you, flare blitz has potential to instantly kill them. But make sure you're at least 2 steps away from the ledge or you'll kill yourself. Wall them out with fairs if the yolo charge is too risky in your current scenario. Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean when you're saying you can't chase people with good jumps. Usually I don't really chase them around offstage, I just kinda wait until they're coming back to me then I start doing stuff. If they're going for the ledge there are a number of things you can try out here. Again, flamethrower is a solid safe option. It won't really kill anyone but you can keep them in a disadvantaged stage while racking a little damage. Nair is another safe option, capable of actually getting kills on weaker recoveries. If the recovery has hit boxes, make sure to use the very tip of the tail. You usually do this with nair anyway, but it that I instance it's more important. If you're looking to chase try going deep off stage with your opponent. When you're in recovery range, try and bait out an attack. Easier said than done, I know, but if you're successful you can intercept it with fly, blocking most hits with its armor(super armor? I forget if it's heavy armor or super armor) and get some nice damage possibly a kill. Also, dair. Make them respect that dair. Charizards jumps are really small, but the low height actually makes it easier to land a dair, and you get an extra one to space it out. Once they start respecting that dair it will make edge guarding a lot easier. Particularly in landing a bair. once people start trying to avoid the dair they recover a lot more diagonally, so I just grab the ledge, jump off and bair them. Bair also works if they're coming more horizontal. Never forget about bair. It's stupid powerful and get you a ton of reaaaally earlier kills. Also, I don't know how viable this is, but if you're opponent is recovering to the ledge, you get jump over them and fb toward the stage, just barely below the ledge so you don't snap to it. If you time it correctly it will intercept their recovery and instantly kill them. I've actually been doing to this with quiet a bit of success, and it feels so good.

Now, as for characters who out range you.. I'm also stumped. Usually it's not that big of a problem cause charizard barely gets out ranged, but when he does, it's really annoying. Id say make good use of your long grab And super armor, but then again I'd say that about any match up, so that advice is probably no good. Anyone got some tips on this?

For the bair issue, I'd say nailing it just comes with practice. But it's such a great move I would say it's worth your time getting it down pat. I really only use it off stage or when they're falling on stage or something like that cause whiffing it sucks

 

[ZephyrZ]

I usually just try to wait for them to come down a bit. His dash speed is great, so it takes a bit of prediction but it can be done.

Yeah, I've been experimenting with this a lot lately.
His short skid animation really helps, so you can end a dash with a variety of different moves, like a jab or sliding rock smash, to keep your foe guessing.
If they're on a platform, you can also get them with an up-tilt or short-hop nair.

 

[laces]

Can I just say how great flamethrower is? Great at spacing, good damage, good at edgeguarding, good approach tool, can change its direction, destroys projectiles. Is Bowser's this good?

 

[laces]

Now, as for characters who out range you.. I'm also stumped. Usually it's not that big of a problem cause charizard barely gets out ranged, but when he does, it's really annoying. Id say make good use of your long grab And super armor, but then again I'd say that about any match up, so that advice is probably no good. Anyone got some tips on this?

Flamethrower and rocksmash helps me a lot with longer ranged characters. It's definitely tough though. Mindgames are more heavily relied on with me in these cases.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Can I just say how great flamethrower is? Great at spacing, good damage, good at edgeguarding, good approach tool, can change its direction, destroys projectiles. Is Bowser's this good?

For some reasons, only the inner half of Bowser's Fire Breath flinches foes the way the entire length of Charizard's Flamethrower does. Not only does the outer half of Bowser's Fire Breath only deal damage without flinching foes (in the exact same way Fox's Blaster works), but Bowser's Fire Breath also has a windbox which pushes the foe away from Bowser, resulting in his Fire Breath dealing even less damage than it normally would. I don't know why they had to nerf Bowser's Fire Breath like that when it wasn't that way in Melee or Brawl, especially since this character was supposed to be buffed in Smash 4, and Charizard's Flamethrower was allowed to remain the same as before, but this results in Bowser not being able to zone anywhere near as effectively as Charizard can.

 

[RadianB]

Bowser's Fire Breath is just terrible, I can't find many opportunities to use it in a match. Charizard's Flamethrower on the other hand is a great move, it's pretty much one of his main moves.

 

[Steeler]

One thing Bowser's has is a shorter cooldown. He also does have a custom that does a lot more damage (like 18% if you hit with all of it) but peters out quickly and takes a while to recharge. An upgrade if you use Fire Breath sparingly though.

 

[RAzul]

m2k said charizard is just ok. I doubt he will main him

He will never main Zard. It's just not him. Just cuz he says a character is okay or whatever doesn't mean much although he is a top player. It's up to the person playing them to show out their capabilities.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

For some reasons, only the inner half of Bowser's Fire Breath flinches foes the way the entire length of Charizard's Flamethrower does. Not only does the outer half of Bowser's Fire Breath only deal damage without flinching foes (in the exact same way Fox's Blaster works), but Bowser's Fire Breath also has a windbox which pushes the foe away from Bowser, resulting in his Fire Breath dealing even less damage than it normally would. I don't know why they had to nerf Bowser's Fire Breath like that when it wasn't that way in Melee or Brawl, especially since this character was supposed to be buffed in Smash 4, and Charizard's Flamethrower was allowed to remain the same as before, but this results in Bowser not being able to zone anywhere near as effectively as Charizard can.

Charizards flamethrower did get changed from brawl though. It got buffed in my opinion. It's longer (I think) it pushed your opponents away( doesn't have a wind box like bowsers though) and it can be controlled better. I'm kinda glad bowser got a worse flamethrower in this game.

 

[Davregis]

He will never main Zard. It's just not him. Just cuz he says a character is okay or whatever doesn't mean much although he is a top player. It's up to the person playing them to show out their capabilities.

I got the opportunity to ask his opinion in a Twitch stream mid-January, he said Charizard felt decidedly low-tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If incase people weren't away, Link as a jab lock black hole on Charizard that works from 30% to about death...unless Charizard has his downB custom Rock Hurl which lets him get out of it at 69%-145%.

So if you are going to a tournament against a Link that knows how to do this, take Rock Hurl 100% of the time.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I got the opportunity to ask his opinion in a Twitch stream mid-January, he said Charizard felt decidedly low-tier.

I'm okay with this. I picked this guy up knowing that is at a disadvantage against basically every combo-character or zoner ever, so I figured he could only be so good.

This does't bug me, however, I don't really have any massive tournaments to win or any reputation to uphold; I'm just in this for the fun of it all and to show that I love the characters I play, and I'm not going to let viability stop me. Besides, in this game, even the worst characters are still sort of usable.

If anything I feel proud to main a "bad" character.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I got the opportunity to ask his opinion in a Twitch stream mid-January, he said Charizard felt decidedly low-tier.

So what?
No dis respect to the king or any other top players, but assuming someone is right because they have more authority on a certain subject is a fallacy. If we always listen to the higher ups Charizard will remain low tier forever

 

[RAzul]

I got the opportunity to ask his opinion in a Twitch stream mid-January, he said Charizard felt decidedly low-tier.

It's dope that he answered you back. But, still (as we've all been saying), the meta-game is still in its infancy. Idc if M2K or Zero feel A or B character is good or bad. I try to not pay any attention to that anymore. I just wanna focus on overcoming supposed terrible match-ups. I LOVE the way Zard plays. I'm a natural Villager main since the demo and he's my #1 no matter what but Zard has found a special place in my game along with Olimar. I'm an unorthodox player. We'll see what the future brings. The whole tier list thing might be completely flipped. That's what's so interesting about all this as well.

 

[RadianB]

Charizards flamethrower did get changed from brawl though. It got buffed in my opinion. It's longer (I think) it pushed your opponents away( doesn't have a wind box like bowsers though) and it can be controlled better. I'm kinda glad bowser got a worse flamethrower in this game.

It got a big damage nerf from Brawl but other than that it's better.