Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Davregis]

So all of a sudden I started sucking at using Charizard -__- I can't win any battles with him now. I wonder why.

Either look up some fundamentals guides or start playing him not to win, but to have fun-- oftentimes, 'screwing around' ends up bringing someone really far.

 

[C3CC]

Either look up some fundamentals guides or start playing him not to win, but to have fun-- oftentimes, 'screwing around' ends up bringing someone really far.

Yes, I'm going to have to do that. This recently happened to me with Palutena and I had officially dropped her as one of my four mains until I decided to mess around with her again. Now she's back to my group.

Strangely enough, this has never happened to me with Yoshi or Rosalina... I'm still pretty good with both of them. Maybe the fact that they're both high tier influences this?

 

[Steeler]

Dedede's neutral game is absolutely awful. Zard's isn't that great but Dedede has no answer to Flamethrower. How does Dedede safely land a kill on you? Zard gets much more off correct reads and is much more mobile. This is an even matchup, at worst. I will record some offline matches to show you what I mean. Online play means absolutely nothing, good players or not. You cannot properly time attacks to hit Gordos, for example.

It is absolutely INSANE to think this is worse than Diddy or Zero Suit. Those are both incredibly agile characters that can quickly rack up a ton of damage on you off low risk situations. Zard needs to play so damn carefully around characters like them. Dedede does nothing to threaten Charizard like that. Awful mobility.

 

[RadianB]

No way is the Dedede match up 20-80, that's assuming that it's almost unwinable. I'd suddgest that at most from my experience it would be 40-60. Dedede does out range Charizard but he can't do much when Charizard is under him. Up tilt goes through all of Dedede's aerials including his D-air and F-air. Dedede has 4 jumps when he's in the air so try to keep track of them. Don't just spam up tilt when he's above you you need to make good reads to keep juggling him and since Dedede's air speed is so slow you can pretty much stay under him by just walking.
His Gordos are hard to avoid up close unless you have fresh flamethrower but if you see him doing it from a distance Flare Blitz will always hit the Gordo back at him if you do it early enough. The move is pretty telegraphed so it isn't hard, you'll take standard 9% recoil but Dedede will take more.
The match up becomes much easier with customs. Dragon Rush and Fireball Cannon give Dedede a tough time.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah, I don't like Fireball Cannon but it's tailormade to screw Dedede over.

 

[Dre89]

No way is the Dedede match up 20-80, that's assuming that it's almost unwinable. I'd suddgest that at most from my experience it would be 40-60. Dedede does out range Charizard but he can't do much when Charizard is under him. Up tilt goes through all of Dedede's aerials including his D-air and F-air. Dedede has 4 jumps when he's in the air so try to keep track of them. Don't just spam up tilt when he's above you you need to make good reads to keep juggling him and since Dedede's air speed is so slow you can pretty much stay under him by just walking.
His Gordos are hard to avoid up close unless you have fresh flamethrower but if you see him doing it from a distance Flare Blitz will always hit the Gordo back at him if you do it early enough. The move is pretty telegraphed so it isn't hard, you'll take standard 9% recoil but Dedede will take more.
The match up becomes much easier with customs. Dragon Rush and Fireball Cannon give Dedede a tough time.

You can just jab the gordo to reflect it back at him. D3 is one of Zard's best match ups, for Kneesmasher to say it's 2:8 and then say someone like Diddy is absolutely absurd. That's probably as absurd as saying Ganon was top tier in Brawl. It just goes to show you how much online experience with randoms can really skew your perception of proper competitive play.

Online experience only counts if you're versing high level offline tourney players in minimal lag, and you're able to converse with them as well. You need to understand how lag is affecting their play, when it ruins an input of theirs etc. Offline play is still way better though.

 

[RadianB]

You can just jab the gordo to reflect it back at him. D3 is one of Zard's best match ups, for Kneesmasher to say it's 2:8 and then say someone like Diddy is absolutely absurd. That's probably as absurd as saying Ganon was top tier in Brawl. It just goes to show you how much online experience with randoms can really skew your perception of proper competitive play.

Online experience only counts if you're versing high level offline tourney players in minimal lag, and you're able to converse with them as well. You need to understand how lag is affecting their play, when it ruins an input of theirs etc. Offline play is still way better though.

I know that you can Jab to deflect them back but at far distances Dedede has enough time to block the deflection, Flare Blitz pretty much guarantees to hit the Gordo back during Dedede's end lag.
I agree about the lag thing and of course offline will always be better. Online play shouldn't be completely disregarded though since it is possible to have games with almost no lag at all (blue connection). Using matches like these in match up discussions would be fine in my opinion.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't see how Dedede isn't one of our better matchups. Gordo isn't a big deal unless you play For Glory. Just jab that stuff back, it's slow enough to do it on reaction.
I played Diddy and ZSS this weekend and while I did pretty well it's obvious the matchups are heavily in their favor. Being a big slow target against fast strong characters with strong punishes is not good. That's just how Smash works. It's a shame but we gotta work really hard to keep up with them and we will never reach midtier anyways.

 

[Smog Frog]

zards not slow lol, 8th fastest dashing speed isnt exactly slow

also flamethrower angled up beats monkey flip

 

[-LzR-]

zards not slow lol, 8th fastest dashing speed isnt exactly slow

also flamethrower angled up beats monkey flip

Dash is only one of the things that make up a characters speed. I would trade our dash speed for a less crappy walk speed any day of the week.

Flamethrower will never beat monkey flip, it's too slow. I believe Usmash and Ftilt angled up are our best options against that move.

 

[Smog Frog]

why walk when your skid animation is short enough to reasonably use any attack afterward in a manner similar to a walk?

and zards walking speed isnt even that bad, its 19 out of 48.

 

[C3CC]

Either look up some fundamentals guides or start playing him not to win, but to have fun-- oftentimes, 'screwing around' ends up bringing someone really far.

Yes, I'm going to have to do that. This recently happened to me with Palutena and I had officially dropped her as one of my four mains until I decided to mess around with her again. Now she's back to my group.

Strangely enough, this has never happened to me with Yoshi or Rosalina... I'm still pretty good with both of them. Maybe the fact that they're both high tier influences this?

 

[Davregis]

why walk when your skid animation is short enough to reasonably use any attack afterward in a manner similar to a walk?

Y'know what, that's pretty legit. Perhaps the devs never intended Charizard to be walking.

 

[-LzR-]

why walk when your skid animation is short enough to reasonably use any attack afterward in a manner similar to a walk?

This is true and it's strong with Charizard. However it's still a commitment. With walking you are not committing to anything, you can do anything at any time as you want when walking. Dash has that short moment of commitment where you can't do many things. Those small thing are huge when a Diddy Kong is just waiting for you to move to Dthrow Upair you into pain zone.

 

[Remzi]

With customs, I'm not convinced that Charizard doesn't have a winning matchup against Diddy.

 

[Smog Frog]

bold claim

 

[Davregis]

Perhaps we'll see some flaming victories come Evo, eh?

 

[Swoops]

This is true and it's strong with Charizard. However it's still a commitment. With walking you are not committing to anything, you can do anything at any time as you want when walking. Dash has that short moment of commitment where you can't do many things. Those small thing are huge when a Diddy Kong is just waiting for you to move to Dthrow Upair you into pain zone.

What are you giving up with running in this situation vs walking? Just because you can do anything during walking doesn't mean it's the superior option most of the time. That's all dependent on context and match ups.

What are you doing vs a diddy that requires walk in neutral? Ftilt maybe? Jab? Both require incredibly specific timing that I wouldn't even bother attempting on a regular basis, and most everything else that has more leniency (nair spacing, flamethrower, fair) doesn't require walking. I just don't understand what the "many things" are.

Don't get me wrong, I think walking is amazing and severely underrated, but if a characters overall gameplan doesn't really benefit from it AND his walk speed isn't that terrible to begin with, I'm not sure that it's a huge deal.

But you're right about one stat not determining speed, it comes down to several stats and context. Most of his stats aren't terrible speed-wise, 4f jab is great, above average walk speed, one of the fastest USmashes at 6f, 9f OoS UpB, and his 8th fastest dash speed does a lot for him when he is traversing the stage and following up things like BThrow and NAir. I think the one stat that does a huge disservice for him is his air speed. If we were to get only one buff to Charizard I would want it to be an increase his air speed. Pretty sure it would elevate NAir spacing, throw follow ups, and make his neutral really threatening with his multiple jumps...like a pseudo-powerhouse Jigglypuff. He is a Flying-type dragon after all :/

 

[Steeler]

With customs, I'm not convinced that Charizard doesn't have a winning matchup against Diddy.

I'm going to guess Fireball Cannon with maybe Rock Hurl? I can see use for both side Bs. I think the problem with Zard is that his good tools are really amazing but they are all definitely baitable in a disadvantageous position and have a huge commitment. Top tier characters have the mobility to bait and/or punish Zard really hard. Zard is definitely helped by customs but it's probably still a -1 40:60 matchup. Which is not bad.

 

[Remzi]

I'm going to guess Fireball Cannon with maybe Rock Hurl? I can see use for both side Bs. I think the problem with Zard is that his good tools are really amazing but they are all definitely baitable in a disadvantageous position and have a huge commitment. Top tier characters have the mobility to bait and/or punish Zard really hard. Zard is definitely helped by customs but it's probably still a -1 40:60 matchup. Which is not bad.

Oh no, I wouldn't dream of switching out firebreath, especially against Diddy. Rock Hurl is solid in this matchup though.

Firebreath alone beats monkey flip, destroys bananas, gimps his recovery. Its an amazing and undervalued tool. Dragon Rush changes every single one of Zard's matchups drastically IMO.

 

[Steeler]

Oh no, I wouldn't dream of switching out firebreath, especially against Diddy. Rock Hurl is solid in this matchup though.

Firebreath alone beats monkey flip, destroys bananas, gimps his recovery. Its an amazing and undervalued tool. Dragon Rush changes every single one of Zard's matchups drastically IMO.

I agree, but I don't think it does enough to make it an even matchup.

 

[Davregis]

I'd go further and say that Fireball Cannon is useless against rushdown characters who are always in your face...

 

[Grizzlpaw]

If tier lists were based on cuddly, Charizard would be SSS Tier.



This concludes my yearly post on this thread

 

[ZephyrZ]

If tier lists were based on cuddly, Charizard would be SSS Tier.

Can't deny that.

His only real competition would be Dedede again.

 

[toadster101]

Can't deny that.

His only real competition would be Dedede again.

 

[Steeler]

I got two jab3 kills yesterday, one of which I was at 0% and they were Villager at 176% (which is high, but not insanely so). So yeah. Jab near ledges can kill.

 

[RadianB]

Does anyone know how to DI out of Dedede's down throw? Is it even possible to DI out of it? I no longer struggle with Dedede and can beat him 90% of the time however that down throw to up air or back air still gives me trouble.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

so after a couple tourneys I've determined that you have to play charizard kinda slow and read heavy. I love the play style to be honest. Zard doesn't really have that many true combos outside of Bthrow -> Follow up and Jab1-2 -> UpB so I've gone to playing him like a grappler and edgegaurd character.

The nuetral is tough for zard because you can't really throw anything out in the neutral that wont get punished hard aside from AC Nair and fair. So I have been relying on rock smash reads on attacks in neutral and taking space with flamethrower, also getting grabs are so important because zard has 2 jumps and a good spike. very often I can back throw and then take up a TON of space with flamethrower to cover many angles. if you snipe their double jump with flame you can easily get the edgegaurd with fair/nair/bair/dair

anyone else feel this way?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

so after a couple tourneys I've determined that you have to play charizard kinda slow and read heavy. I love the play style to be honest. Zard doesn't really have that many true combos outside of Bthrow -> Follow up and Jab1-2 -> UpB so I've gone to playing him like a grappler and edgegaurd character.

The nuetral is tough for zard because you can't really throw anything out in the neutral that wont get punished hard aside from AC Nair and fair. So I have been relying on rock smash reads on attacks in neutral and taking space with flamethrower, also getting grabs are so important because zard has 2 jumps and a good spike. very often I can back throw and then take up a TON of space with flamethrower to cover many angles. if you snipe their double jump with flame you can easily get the edgegaurd with fair/nair/bair/dair

anyone else feel this way?

That's totally one way to play Char.

Personally, I think Charizard has a mix of different playstyles that he can use. There's the slow, read-heavy playstyle that you mentioned, which is definately the way to go when playing in neutral.

But, in most matchups, once I get in, I switch to a more rush-down, pressure-based playstyle. My goal is to keep my opponent at mid-close range, just close enough to be hit by a jab or ftilt, but not directly inside or behind charizard (which is a blind spot for us). Charizard's options become exponentially better outside of the neutral game. Once I start putting pressure on my opponent, I try to prevent them from resetting to neutral for as long as possible.

Thankfully, charizard is no slouch at this, his nair, uair, utilt, and Usmash make him surprisingly good at juggles, and his jab, nair, bthrow, and utilt, all set him up for follow ups into other moves.

Basically, a good charizard has to be adaptable. Know when to play slow and steady, and when to be fast and furious. Know how to keep your momentum going, and your opponent will have a much more difficult time abusing your weaknesses.

That's my take on charizard anyway

Wow, I made a post on this thread

 

[Bigherolike6]

Does Charizard have any throw followups?

 

[-LzR-]

Does Charizard have any throw followups?

There are some follow ups out of Back Throw on most of the cast, check http://smashboards.com/threads/the-charizard-tech-discoveries-thread.395670/ for more details. That data isn't perfectly accurate yet, but that should give you a very good idea on what works. Be wary that these combos are very tight so they will take some practice!

 

[Reaper Talk]

Hey Charizard mains!
I am making a general character guide and was wondering what are Charizard's best and worst stages?
All feedback is welcome and thank you in advance

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Hey Charizard mains!
I am making a general character guide and was wondering what are Charizard's best and worst stages?
All feedback is welcome and thank you in advance

Best stage is nintendogs because charizard + puppies = cuteness overload~




Seriously though, I only play on 3ds which has like 3 good stages, so idk.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Hey Charizard mains!
I am making a general character guide and was wondering what are Charizard's best and worst stages?
All feedback is welcome and thank you in advance

Well, we haven't had a whole lot of stage discussion here. I feel like it's match-up based.

I guess I'd say Battlefield. He can poke through the platforms no problem with his Up-Tilt or a short-hopped Nair, while the platforms also help him deal with juggles.

Final Destination can be a pain if the opponent has any form of projectiles spam; low air speed and the lack of a reflector or projectile himself makes approaching them difficult and dangerous.

 

[RadianB]

Any stage that has thin ledges benefits Charizard due to down smash going completely through them.

 

[Reaper Talk]

Thank you all !
I should have the guide out in a week or so

Spoiler

The guide is extremely generalized so don't expect any major analysis

 

[RadianB]

The majority of you probably already know this but if you press and hold only forward after Up B it adds some decent horizontal movement to it. This makes it a better antiair move.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

The majority of you probably already know this but if you press and hold only forward after Up B it adds some decent horizontal movement to it. This makes it a better antiair move.

I already knew that...

But only because I would accidentally press and hold backwards, which caused like every hit after the first to whiff
Still, it's something that's good to know~

 

[RadianB]

Another random tip that I managed to confirm today, Charizard's F-Smash goes through Ness's PK Thunder 2 (his recovery move). Also Charizard's B-Air goes through nearly every projectile, haven't tried it against a fully charged Charge Shot or Aura Sphere though. It's great against recovering Yoshi's eggs, it just goes straight through them and slaps Yoshi in the face.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I'm starting to get the feeling that Charizard should be played a bit like Brawl Marth. His sucky priority means that he gets beat out by a lot of stuff up close, but keep them in range to get hit by a tilt, nair, or flamethrower and pressure them to death while simultaneously walling them out.

Charizard sucks in neutral, but you can circumnavigate that by sticking to the range that charizard works best at. Charizard does work up close, but I feel like we make the most of all of our options at mid-close range.

Ftilt has it's disjointedness, and it's a safe move to beat high-proirotiy areals like Ness Fair. Nair is... nair. Flamethrower is scary at mid-close range, you can toss it out against shield-happy opponents for some nice shield-pokage. You've got an awesome grab range and the speed to make use of it. Dtilt combos out of nair and potentially leads to gimps. Jab is a strong CQC move if and when you decide to move in.

With all the pressure you're applying, you don't have to work as hard to get reads. You can exploit your opponent's natural fight or flight response instead of trying to make MLG plays all the time. (Lets face it, smart rush down characters like shiek aren't going to give us the opportunity to punish them very often)

Resort to your usual jabs, Rocksmash, and grabs, and stuff if they penetrate your zone, charizard is good boxer so he can do that, go for more aggressive options once you start to gain momentum.
That's how I've been playing charizard lately, and it's been working out.



Now I just wait until someone tells me I'm dumb and that I have no clue what I'm talking about... then we'll finally get some discussion up in here <3