Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Saturn_]

I could use some pointers on any simple Charizard strings, any bread-and-butter combos or setups. Other than nair-jab or nair-dtilt it feels like it's very difficult to link attacks together.

Also, is Zard's grab game as bad as it seems? I feel like I almost never use grab with Zard. However, I've noticed that, on read it's pretty easy to follow and punish rolls with dash attack; should I be looking to punish with grabs instead?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I will be honest out of all the heavies I find many opportunities to dash grab with Charizard and Bowser. You can probably grab right after jab 2 with Zard if you really wanted to.

 

[RadianB]

I could use some pointers on any simple Charizard strings, any bread-and-butter combos or setups. Other than nair-jab or nair-dtilt it feels like it's very difficult to link attacks together.

Also, is Zard's grab game as bad as it seems? I feel like I almost never use grab with Zard. However, I've noticed that, on read it's pretty easy to follow and punish rolls with dash attack; should I be looking to punish with grabs instead?

Charizard's dash grab isn't very good, his standing grab is good however. OoS grabs are good with Charizard due to it's range.
His dash attack has a lingering hit box so it makes it decent against rolls and far away punishes.

 

[Saturn_]

Acting OoS is probably my single biggest weakness as a player, regardless of character. Is there a breakdown somewhere of Zard's options out-of-shield? Maybe with frame data? Thanks.

 

[The pig-keeper]

Also, is Zard's grab game as bad as it seems?

In fact it's not, or at least not that much..

• U-throw has been changed from 8 to 11% making it a reliable option to rack up dmg throughout the game.
• B-throw and D-throw are zard's best ways to kill especially against light characters who will be taken down easily.

But he's right :

Charizard's dash grab isn't very good

As zard's gameplay is based on punishments, grabs are here to make him even more threatening when it comes to failed or laggy moves allowing you to constantly put pressure on your opponent.

 

[-LzR-]

Charizard grabgame is quite good. It's one of his stronger aspects. Bthrow into Fair is legit on most situation and has no lag at all so it allows you too keep the pressure and send the offstage easily. Dthrow is a reasonably legit option to kill when you just can't seem to land that killmove and they start to shield as a result.
Oh and Charizard has a garbage Dashgrab, you could try to use shieldgrabs out of dashes.

 

[RadianB]

Anyone got some tips against Toon Link? I hardly ever play against him and I struggle against his bomb and boomerang spam. Any advise against him would be appreciated.

 

[Steeler]

Stay grounded, for sure. In the air you are free target practice. Practice powershielding the projectiles. Tink's air mobility is also slow so you can use your great dash speed to pressure him when he jumps. If you get an opportunity to Flamethrower, it is pretty effective, but you can't have anything flying at you. With customs you can Fireball Cannon, and I hypothesize it could work well.

 

[RadianB]

Stay grounded, for sure. In the air you are free target practice. Practice powershielding the projectiles. Tink's air mobility is also slow so you can use your great dash speed to pressure him when he jumps. If you get an opportunity to Flamethrower, it is pretty effective, but you can't have anything flying at you. With customs you can Fireball Cannon, and I hypothesize it could work well.

Thanks, this sounds like great advice. During my fights I kept jumping to avoid his bombs and boomerang because I was just treating it like the Link match up.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Charizard players seriously need to use backwards nair as an anti-air tool more often.

Broken move is broken.

 

[RadianB]

Charizard players seriously need to use backwards nair as an anti-air tool more often.

Broken move is broken.

Edit:
Nair? Backwards? I thought you meant Bair and I was going to agree. Can't imagine using backwards nairs as an anti air move. Never really thought about it tbh. I'll try it though.

 

[Saturn_]

Nair is the only move that hits behind Charizard, other than down-smash. If Charizard is facing away from the opponent he's in an extremely vulnerable position and SH-nair is practically the only moves that can cover him.

 

[Steeler]

I think this has been mentioned before, but at middling percents like 25-60%, uthrow -> double jump flamethrower forces the opponent to jump in order to avoid it. If they get hit, you will net over 20% from the "combo", and if they jump then you can try to trap them as they land.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Edit:
Nair? Backwards? I thought you meant Bair and I was going to agree. Can't imagine using backwards nairs as an anti air move. Never really thought about it tbh. I'll try it though.

You want to delay the Nair by just a little bit, but you still want to use it early enough so that it autocancels. For some reason, it tends to whiff if you try to do an immediate Nair out of a short hop, but doing it that way I'm able to land it every time.

Backwards Nair will always whiff if the enemy is on the ground, but when they try to come down on you in the air, backwards nair puts a lingering hitbox under them that comes out quick and doesn't put char at any risk.

I've been able to do a Fair against an areal opponent and then jump away and backwards nair.

It's also a safe edgeguarding tool if they're trying to recover high. If you want to play it safe, just toss that thing out. If you miss you can just DI away like no biggie.

Edit: More on backwards nair:

If you read an airdodge you can DI into them and they'll fall into you and get hit by the inner part of char's tail as it loops around.

Good move is good.

 

[RadianB]

Did we ever get a list of confirmed changes in Ver. 1.0.6? It's been like a month now and I haven't seen anything.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm not a Zard main, but I played with him a lot and I think you Zard mains should REALLY look into practicing all your GROUNDED movement options ( with that dash speed of his).

 

[Saturn_]

Do you think Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup? I think Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup. I'm not sure if Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup.

I hope Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup.

 

[Steeler]

Do you think Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup? I think Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup. I'm not sure if Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup.

I hope Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup.

I think so, Flamethrower is really strong against his recovery because you eliminate side B as an option, which means you can dsmash or fsmash his up b before he sweetspots it. Your grab and jab range are very useful to punish stuff he does. Your weight lets you make more mistakes than most other characters. It's not a slam dunk matchup though, he is very mobile and can punish anything you do. But I think it's scarier for Mac to make a mistake in this matchup.

 

[Saturn_]

Retreating and spacing with nair-dtilt is incredibly effective, and ftilt is better in this matchup than any other I've played yet. Jab is super-unsafe though due to the super-armor on smashes; it seemed to me that when I wanted to jab, I should should've been grabbing instead.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Charizard's b-throw and f-throw are also just great at getting characters off stage, which when combined with his grab range, does wonders in the Mac matchup.

Besides, flying types beat fighting types. Just give him a good STAB Air Slash or two.

 

[Delzethin]

What kind of surprises can Charizard pull with Flamethrower and Rock Smash? Can he wavebounce either one? Lucario can do some interesting stuff with charging Aura Sphere, and I wonder if something similar could apply here.

Besides, flying types beat fighting types. Just give him a good STAB Air Slash or two.

I can't even read Air Slash any more without hearing Shulk say it.

 

[Saturn_]

What kind of surprises can Charizard pull with Flamethrower and Rock Smash? Can he wavebounce either one? Lucario can do some interesting stuff with charging Aura Sphere, and I wonder if something similar could apply here.


I can't even read Air Slash any more without hearing Shulk say it.

Sliding Rock Smash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6BRi8t8Ec

 

[Grizzlpaw]

What kind of surprises can Charizard pull with Flamethrower and Rock Smash? Can he wavebounce either one? Lucario can do some interesting stuff with charging Aura Sphere, and I wonder if something similar could apply here.


I can't even read Air Slash any more without hearing Shulk say it.

The Art of Rocksmash

The Anti-Combo Rocksmash - "Nice Pressure strings m8. Here have some rock shards"

The Anti-Juggle Rocksmash- "Challenge a dragon in the air? Cute"

The Approaching Rocksmash- "Hit me, I dare you"

The Sliding Rocksmash- "Such Tekk Skill"

The Edgueguarding Rocksmash - "Nope, Can't brute force your way back"

The Art of Flamethrower

The Anti Approach Flamethrower - "Watch out, the floor is lava!"

The Anti-Air Flamethower- "Jk, the Air is lava too

The Edguarding Flamethower - "Rip Falcon"

The Flamethrower just cuz - "lel, good luck punishing this"



And I haven't even gotten into B-reverse / Wavebounce shenanigans yet

 

[Orngeblu]

The Art of Rocksmash

The Anti-Combo Rocksmash - "Nice Pressure strings m8. Here have some rock shards"

The Anti-Juggle Rocksmash- "Challenge a dragon in the air? Cute"

The Approaching Rocksmash- "Hit me, I dare you"

The Sliding Rocksmash- "Such Tekk Skill"

The Edgueguarding Rocksmash - "Nope, Can't brute force your way back"

The Art of Flamethrower

The Anti Approach Flamethrower - "Watch out, the floor is lava!"

The Anti-Air Flamethower- "Jk, the Air is lava too

The Edguarding Flamethower - "Rip Falcon"

The Flamethrower just cuz - "lel, good luck punishing this"



And I haven't even gotten into B-reverse / Wavebounce shenanigans yet

All of this is true.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Do you think Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup? I think Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup. I'm not sure if Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup.

I hope Charizard wins the Little Mac matchup.

Charizard has one of the best grabs in game and has good off stage game.

Little Mac is doomed.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Can't we just bthrow > dragon rush cheese Little Mac?

 

[RadianB]

Can't we just bthrow > dragon rush cheese Little Mac?

Yes you can.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I tend to just Bthrow > Fair > Fair little mac

 

[Charey]

I find that good Little Macs are careful of grabs, so just relying on throws will not work.

However Charizard has enough range to just zone out Little Mac with normals, and LM doesn't have a way around it with no aerial game so this matchup is in Charizard's favor IMO.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Zard also has Rock Smash/Hurl to come down onto the stage against Mac's super armored Smashes with good timing. I forgot if Zard actually wins that trade or not, but I recall they'll generally trade at least. 'Course, if Mac expects you to Rock Smash/Hurl your way down to the stage, he can Slip Counter you and straight up win that trade with it. Zard's also among the heavier characters around, which gets boosted further with good DI, so even Mac will have to rack up more percent on you to KO you reliably than he would most others, thus buying you extra chances to stick around should he intercept your moves more often than expected. Mac's also lighter than Mario, so we don't have to rack up as much damage on him before we go for our KO moves.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I feel like Rock Hurl > Nair/Uair/Fly/RC is a thing at Low-Mid percent. Need a Pro Zard to confirm for me.

 

[Steeler]

It's not a true combo but it is a pretty good thing, yes. Great vs players who prefer to air dodge, not so good against those who jump out. In which case you need to stay near the ground to punish their landing with Flamethrower/sh nair/side b/etc.

dragon rush first hits on frame 20 at the earliest. maybe 21.

we all know about nair to jab. well, fullhop nair can also combo into up smash and dtilt at low percents. dtilt is tougher to get. up smash does more damage than jab and dtilt sends at that nice, horizontal angle. to get this most consistently, you have to hit with the end of fullhop nair and fastfall it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

One question I got is what is the best option to send DDD's Gordo back at him?

I am not sure what to do in that situation.

 

[Steeler]

jab or ftilt if you are on the ground. fair in the air. flamethrower will knock it back but only if it's fresh.

 

[MagiusNecros]

jab or ftilt if you are on the ground. fair in the air. flamethrower will knock it back but only if it's fresh.

Will have to try. Dtilt doesn't do the trick?

 

[Steeler]

dtilt doesn't have much of a disjoint at all, you are probably going to take damage even if you hit it back.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Guess timing of ftilt needs work.

 

[RadianB]

Up Smash works too if you're having trouble timing your jab or F-tilt.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well besides ddd I pretty much destroyed the 8 player tourney we had at the Ridley group.

3 sets. Most of my wins were Charizard.

One Link player gave me Nightmares.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Speaking of DDD, my char has been harnassing his inner D3 lately.

I like hovering just out of their reach, baiting them into doing something, and then punishing accordingly.

Sometimes you can catch them sleeping which is a free Flamethrower. Do that a few times and they'll be conditioned to start responding with something... which makes baiting them easier... I love this character.