Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[-LzR-]

It might sound really strange, but the Brawl character I would compare Charizard to is Snake with a bit of Dedede added to it.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Snake? mmm... I don't see it.

I mean... they both push a few buttons and go flying across the stage at a billion miles an hour, but their palystyles are different.

Snake is the king of stage control, while charizard kinda wants to keep you at a range where he can deal with you.


Edit: Nope, now that I think about it I think I can see it.

Dedede and charizard have always been similar. Great range, kill power, and they love to hug things to death grab.

 

[-LzR-]

One of the reasons it reminds me of Snake is how both Charizard and Snake prefer to stay grounded most of the time, but when the time comes to use aerials, they are very powerful. With Dedede comes the amazing recovery for a heavy character, an upB combined with super armor.
If using Flare Blitz there is also the common thing that both character are super heavy weights who have insane recoveries in exchange for hurting themselves.

 

[RadianB]

I hate how Charizard's first jab sometimes doesn't combo into the second and my opponent blocks the second jab even though the first hit. This is so critical in high level play. Does anyone know why this is? I went into training mode to test it and it seems random. Sometimes his Jab is a full 3 hit combo and sometimes it's only a 2 hit?

 

[Davregis]

I hate how Charizard's first jab sometimes doesn't combo into the second and my opponent blocks the second jab even though the first hit. This is so critical in high level play. Does anyone know why this is? I went into training mode to test it and it seems random. Sometimes his Jab is a full 3 hit combo and sometimes it's only a 2 hit?

I remember someone saying that Jab1 barely has enough hitstun to combo into Jab2-- Samus complex :/

 

[Steeler]

Yep, and it looks completely unchanged in the patch.

 

[-LzR-]

Shouldn't it combo all the time anyways if you just hold A? Ever since I started doing that people stopped interrupting my jab combos.

 

[Sodo]

I was looking for a specific matchup thread for Ness and didn't want to create a new topic. I have a friend around my skill level who uses Ness. Any tips for this MU?

 

[Davregis]

Sodo: Hopped Flamethrower is your best friend. Jump over fire, catch an advance with backwards hop, smack his PKT2 to reduce its momentum. With Customs, Rock Hurl can probably stop the dthrow -> fair

Shouldn't it combo all the time anyways if you just hold A? Ever since I started doing that people stopped interrupting my jab combos.

Is it worth always having to commit to jab2 though? Is it still easy enough to break the jabs if you smack a shield?

 

[RadianB]

I figured out why jab sometimes doesn't fully combo. It's completely dependent on how the first jab connects. If Charizard hits with his hand or claws in jab 1 then it will true combo into the other jabs. However if you use jab 1 at point blank and only Charizard's arm connects then jab 1 will not combo into the following jabs. This seems like it was intentionally put in which explains why it wasn't 'fixed'.
Now we just need to figure out what to do after a point blank jab 1 since a good player will be guaranteed to guard the following jabs. The only thing I can think of is going straight into a grab after jab 1 but I'm not sure if it'll be fast enough and will I get shield grabbed before my grab activates? I hope this is not the case however if it is then maybe it might be best to avoid going for jabs against point blank opponents?

 

[Davregis]

Dang, so it's like jab jab fly being a legit combo when you catch an aerial opponent? I guess the idea would yeah be to just not jab at point blank.

fits in with the rest of Zard I guess ;>_>

 

[-LzR-]

Point blank was always the "you failed as a Charizard" position anyways so it's not like we weren't supposed to just roll or jump out of the situation.

 

[Knee Smasher]

A question to other Charizard players:

Have you noticed that Fthrow at the edge sometimes kills earlier than Dthrow does? If so, can anyone figure out when exactly that happens, and why?

 

[RadianB]

A question to other Charizard players:

Have you noticed that Fthrow at the edge sometimes kills earlier than Dthrow does? If so, can anyone figure out when exactly that happens, and why?

I've noticed that too but I kind of attributed that to bad DI from my opponent.

 

[Bloodcross]

if you're in point blank jab 1 chances are you should be grabbing, upsmashing, or upb'ing OoS instead imo. but it can't be helped at some either if your opponent just runs into it in neutral and gets lucky lol. im pretty sure you're not gonna know you'll be in point blank range until it's too late, not sure if you can react fast enough. but if you can... then jab to grab can be a good mixup. worst thing they can do is just mash out a quick move.

fthrow killing earlier can happen if you throw immediately and catch the opponent offguard. i once grabbed an opponent on the smashville platform and immediately fthrow and killed him at 70%. it just accounts for bad di honestly.

 

[Steeler]

so i've been trying out mapping specials to my c-stick, and i kind of like it. it makes jump cancel rock smash (can we make "rock sliding" an official term pls) a lot easier, especially out of shield. probably the best use of that is just on reaction to someone even jumping at you, you can slide into them with this very armored, very meaty, very damaging attack. it should pretty much beat out anything anyone tries out of a short hop?

still not sure of how viable it is as a punish out of shield though, with the jumpsquat animation (which i am gonna guess is around 6 frames), it's about as fast as dropping your shield and fsmashing. might actually be pretty usable for punishing stuff that hits multiple times but has a gap between hits or something, like jabs, but usually you can just wait these things out and punish with something else...

so basically, you gotta have your reactions and predictions down really well. but hey that's charizard for ya

but the main thing is it just helps me armor through stuff a tad bit quicker, which can make a huge difference in whether you get stuffed or not. i was using rock smash more in ways i hadn't really tried much before.

i still think hurl's hitboxes are janky af and bad against small characters doe

 

[VeteranUnderdog]

All of charizards moves have lots of endlag.... I have a lot of trouble using nair without getting punished.
I do love landing a flare blitz or foward smash when i play him occasionally though.
My understanding of specials:
Flamethrower- Edgeguarding
Flare blitz - Get up/Landing punish attack
Fly - Out of shield kill move
Rock smash - Counter that damages you but always hits
His foward air is comparable to mewtwo, but he lacks MT's floatyness to follow it up with anything. I feel his down air is one of the easier spikes in the game, but that might just be me. Uair has killpower as a desperation kill move.

This is the one heavy i would really like to see buffs too. Either damage buffs or lag reduction, like the 3ds shulk patch. His specials are good, but lag just makes him fly down the tier list.

 

[Davregis]

It's been a little while, but Flamethrower is life. It stuffs every option in the game with very minimal reads except on faster characters and they're our worse matchups anyway. On characters like Shulk/Marth FThrower becomes annoyingly vital because it's really the only safe thing you can do.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Shouldn't it combo all the time anyways if you just hold A? Ever since I started doing that people stopped interrupting my jab combos.

Really? If that's true, I've got to start doing that.

 

[Steeler]

Nah if you go into training mode and try it either way, holding or tapping, sometimes the combo counter won't count 3 hits. I do think holding it probably helps though because I assume the game reads your next jab input on the earliest possible frame, instead of you possibly tapping it a few frames later

 

[Saturn_]

I've only played a little bit of Charizard, but reading through the changes from the update...is it me or did Zard get MASSIVELY buffed? In a world with no S-tier Diddy, Charizard getting buffs to his throws and to up-b kills seems like a really big deal.

 

[-LzR-]

I've only played a little bit of Charizard, but reading through the changes from the update...is it me or did Zard get MASSIVELY buffed? In a world with no S-tier Diddy, Charizard getting buffs to his throws and to up-b kills seems like a really big deal.

Only his Uthrow was buffed with a little more %. It's still a relatively useless throw compared to the other throws, but at least it does the most damage when that's all you want. UpB is unchanged.
What was actually changed was Fair and Dtilt. Both are big buffs imo. Dtilt being 2 frames faster means it will beat a lot more things than it used to. 2 frames is a lot.
Fair kills so much more efficiently now. The outer hitbox is now the sweetspot instead of the inside so at lower % you can go for an inside Fair for a better potential follow up and later % hit a tipper that kills about 50% earlier than it used to.
Now a Bthrow -> Fair at 50% is a very easy edgeguard setup.

 

[Saturn_]

Only his Uthrow was buffed with a little more %. It's still a relatively useless throw compared to the other throws, but at least it does the most damage when that's all you want. UpB is unchanged.
What was actually changed was Fair and Dtilt. Both are big buffs imo. Dtilt being 2 frames faster means it will beat a lot more things than it used to. 2 frames is a lot.
Fair kills so much more efficiently now. The outer hitbox is now the sweetspot instead of the inside so at lower % you can go for an inside Fair for a better potential follow up and later % hit a tipper that kills about 50% earlier than it used to.
Now a Bthrow -> Fair at 50% is a very easy edgeguard setup.

What list of patch notes are you going off of? The ones I've read (on reddit) say his Up-B knockback was increased.

 

[-LzR-]

What list of patch notes are you going off of? The ones I've read (on reddit) say his Up-B knockback was increased.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-7-thread-updated-apr-26-8am-pst.398902/

That is the only reliable source of patch notes. Ignore every other source, especially Reddit.

 

[Saturn_]

With ftilt seeming to have a much greater range than dtilt, what are dtilt's major uses?

Also, what are Zard's best 0- or low-% combos?

 

[RadianB]

With ftilt seeming to have a much greater range than dtilt, what are dtilt's major uses?

Also, what are Zard's best 0- or low-% combos?

Forward Tilt and Down tilt have the same range. Down tilt is faster and is safer on block. It's a better poking move. Forward tilt has more knock back if hit with the tip and it's disjointed.

His best 0% combo is Back throw to F-air then getting a correct read after it.

 

[Saturn_]

After messing around with it, up-throw to Fair is a 23% true combo at zero.

 

[Davregis]

After messing around with it, up-throw to Fair is a 23% true combo at zero.

on some characters if they don't DI away

 

[RadianB]

Forward Tilt and Down tilt have the same range. Down tilt is faster and is safer on block. It's a better poking move. Forward tilt has more knock back if hit with the tip and it's disjointed.

His best 0% combo is Back throw to F-air then getting a correct read after it.

Just gonna edit what I previously said here but I think Forward Tilt actually does have a tiny bit more range than Down Tilt but not by much.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I actually find F-tilts range to be significant enough to justify it's use over d-tilt, and I've even killed a Mewtwo with a sweetspotted one near the edge before. It certainly has its uses.

However, I still find myself using D-tilt more often. It definitely feels faster after this patch.

 

[-LzR-]

Dtilt was made 2 frames faster overall. Ftilt is now pretty much obsolete outside of Nair combos.
You should almost always use Dtilt over Ftilt. Ftilt is honestly a pretty bad move for what it is and it's also incredibly situational too.

 

[RadianB]

Yeah, taking 11 frames to come out and only doing 7% damage is just terrible. Not to mention it's unsafe on block as well.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

angled up is a decent anti air tho. and angled down it can seriously gimp some characters that have difficulty sweet spotting

 

[ggamer77]

Dtilt is good and quick to get people away from you or push them off stage.
Ftilt is a good kill move though.

 

[Davregis]

FSmash is definitely my favorite ledge-killer, and my most-used one. The hitbox extends so far below the ledge it's barely legit

 

[-LzR-]

Dtilt is good and quick to get people away from you or push them off stage.
Ftilt is a good kill move though.

If a move that kills at 180% is a killmove then sure.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I actually find F-tilts range to be significant enough to justify it's use over d-tilt, and I've even killed a Mewtwo with a sweetspotted one near the edge before. It certainly has its uses.

However, I still find myself using D-tilt more often. It definitely feels faster after this patch.

I always thought of it like this:

Ftilt: Slow, disjointed move. Doesn't extend a hurtbox towards the enemy. Better if sweetspotted.

Dtilt: Faster move with better launch angle. Better tilt overall.


Basically if I want to challange an Fsmash or something, I'll use Ftilt becasue I'll be able to hit them without taking damage. If i try to use Dtilt, the best I can hope for is to trade a tilt for a smash, and that's almost always a losing trade.

 

[Steeler]

someone made a chart detailing the start up, lag, block stun, and frame advantage on zard's moves

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...hOwju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=95819857

 

[RadianB]

Wow F-tilt is even worse then I thought. 12 frames of start up for such a weak and unsafe move.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

If a move that kills at 180% is a killmove then sure.

I've gotten it to kill at 130% with rage. It's not a reliable kill move by any means, but it's still hilarious when it happens.