Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Shog]

DDD is still a very hard matchup tbh. Simply because of "priority" or however you call that.

 

[AetherStorm]

There was a balance patch. I don't know how big yet, but it happened. Charizard's dthrow now works like other downthrows, sending the opponent slightly up and in front of him. It now true combos into Fair up to around 50%, and Uair after that. Dthrow to Uair kills at around 100%. Dunno what else has been changed yet. Maybe Uair was buffed? I'm getting it to kill from around 120% percent from the floor of battlefield.

 

[Lyserdon]

There was a balance patch. I don't know how big yet, but it happened. Charizard's dthrow now works like other downthrows, sending the opponent slightly up and in front of him. It now true combos into Fair up to around 50%, and Uair after that. Dthrow to Uair kills at around 100%. Dunno what else has been changed yet. Maybe Uair was buffed? I'm getting it to kill from around 120% percent from the floor of battlefield.

Thanks for the report, I'm literally at the venue waiting for a tournament to start and people are scrambling to figure out what the patch did as Wii U's slowly update around me. I'll keep that stuff in mind for my matches. I heard uthrow is now a kill throw as well but haven't seen it.

 

[T4ylor]

Yeah, Up throw kills at around 130% off the top in training mode now

 

[meleebrawler]

Seismic Toss does damage based on level. Uthrow got stronger in two consecutive patches. Therefore Charizard levelled
up in both patches.

 

[Lyserdon]

Seismic Toss does damage based on level. Uthrow got stronger in two consecutive patches. Therefore Charizard levelled
up in both patches.

Mind = Blown.

 

[Shog]

Wait Charizard got buffed?

YESH

 

[Saturn_]

Charizard got significant buffs to his Up-throw and down-throw. Dthrow now reliably combos most of the cast at low to mid percents (like up to 30-40) and allows for non-true follow-ups until like 80% on almost everyone. Up-throw is a kill throw, taking dthrow's place, and can reliably kill about half the cast at 110-120%, lower with rage. Levels with platforms are now much, much better for Charizard, as up-throw landing on a platform can lead to cheesy earlier kills with uthrow. Uthrow also has true combos on some cast members (I haven't really had time to test much), most notably King DeDeDe. King D3 now gets combo'd HARD by uthrow at 0-25% and true combo'd by dthrow at 25-50%. I feel like this matchup swung very hard in Charizard's favor.

Kill throws are one of the biggest things defining the meta. The recent patch rockets Zard up the tier list IMO.

 

[Steeler]

Rock Smashing someone shielding on a platform above you will shield poke pretty often, depending on the character and your spacing. You want that rock as deep inside their shield as possible. Short hop so you won't land on the platform and get punished if you don't poke.

 

[RadianB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZYfsWBqcg&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h&index=1

This explains why Flamethrower to Forward Smash works whilst edge guarding. I always wondered why my opponent never instantly ledge snapped after getting hit with a flamethrower, I always thought it was due to them pressing Up B too early but now I know. Time to abuse this. =D

 

[ZephyrZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZYfsWBqcg&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h&index=1

This explains why Flamethrower to Forward Smash works whilst edge guarding. I always wondered why my opponent never instantly ledge snapped after getting hit with a flamethrower, I always thought it was due to them pressing Up B too early but now I know. Time to abuse this. =D

This explains so much. I wonder how no one ever noticed this tech before.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Okay before I cry tears of joy

Is char's dthrow seriously combo'ing into things now?

Is seismic toss actually an epic finisher just like in the anime?

WHY IS HIS JAB RANDOMLY KILLING?


I need some air

 

[ZephyrZ]

WHY IS HIS JAB RANDOMLY KILLING?

I thought his Jab always had a strange amount of kill potential at the edge.

 

[dangeraaron10]

Testing UThrow against several characters on Final Destination in training mode. With Zard at 0% to not account for rage. To instantly kill someone on FD with UThrow, you need Rosalina to be at roughly 110%. Zero Suit at 120%. And someone as heavy as King DDD at 155% (I can kill Bowser at 138% strangely, thought he was supposed to be heavier than DDD). If you're on a non FD stage, particularly Battlefield or Dreamland (which might make Charizard players salivate now) you can kill almost 20-30% earlier. Combined with Charizard's ridiculously long non-tether grab range, this is wonderful news.

I've only noticed just now, and it might not have been the case before hand, Charizard's jabs seem to to actually pull Shiek closer to him to avoid getting knocked out too early.

D Throw, while technically "nerfed" actually opens up follow ups with Fly (with good positioning) or a well placed ariel.

I expect Seismic Toss to become the bread and butter kill move of many a Zard player. MUCH safer than Flare Blitz at any rate.

 

[Shog]

Testing UThrow [..]

First: Thanks! It is nice to know the kill percentage of some characters. It also shows that No Platforms doesn't make the throw completly unviable
...
PLEASE test out on Duck Hunt Stage by the "tree kill zone".
#1 Getting a jank kill there would be AMAZING
#2 Fire/Flying beats Grass types
#3 Flamethrower can melt Tree Beams (I am sleepy and tired sorry)

 

[dangeraaron10]

Edit once more: I completely forgot to account for DI, so the bottom percents might actually not work out for you. I had no idea DI accounts for that much of a percentage.

Yeah, it's consistent against Bowser. DDD seems to be the only one that needs to get up around 155 to KO. That's a pretty high percent, but I -believe- DDD is the one that requires the highest percent. Everyone else is going to hover around 120% kill range on FD. I can knock Shiek out of the park on Dreamland's platforms (any of them) around 80-90%

I'm going to test Diddy too. Also going to test Duck Hunt Stage to see how that works out.

Diddy on FD takes precisely 126%, without rage, in training mode to KO with Uthrow

First: Thanks! It is nice to know the kill percentage of some characters. It also shows that No Platforms doesn't make the throw completly unviable
...
PLEASE test out on Duck Hunt Stage by the "tree kill zone".
#1 Getting a jank kill there would be AMAZING
#2 Fire/Flying beats Grass types
#3 Flamethrower can melt Tree Beams (I am sleepy and tired sorry)

If by 'Tree kill zone" you mean that collection of platforms on the tree on the left side of the stage, I can grab Mario at 70% while on the ground level and, if I can manage to Uthrow up to the top most platform on the tree, I can KO Mario at 70%. Give or take for heavy/light weights. I can kill Mario at 80% on the second highest branch. Give or take an additional 10% for each branch lower. You can Uthrow from the ground and land on one of the branches if that's what you mean.

DDD, who seems to give Uthrow the most challenge, can get KOd at 85% on the top branch.

Edit again!: I have furstratingly tried to get the idle CPU to cooperate and stand in the -exact- position in order to Uthrow onto the third and fourth highest platforms, and the positioning is so narrow it's really hard to time, you will almost always hit the highest or second highest, so get DDD around 95% in that general area to cheese a KO on him

 

[dangeraaron10]

Sorry, Double post

I will say though, between U Throw and D Throw changes, the Jab seeming to always work as intended by pulling enemies in closer, and making his two mid air jumps (seemingly) not suck as much, Charizard feels GREAT to play after 1.0.8.

 

[Steeler]

These percents are a bit lower than the absolute guarantee with DI because I can get Rosa to live to 130% on FD

 

[dangeraaron10]

These percents are a bit lower than the absolute guarantee with DI because I can get Rosa to live to 130% on FD

Ah, true. I completely forgot to count for DI.

Alright well NOT counting Rage or DI, Shiek gets KOd at 115% on FD. Will be earlier with Rage, later with DI.

 

[Charey]

I found a neat string with the new throws, D-throw > Dair> Up Smash. It works from about 30-50% but it isn't true because of the tech point.

Also, Dthrow > Uair kills at about 85%. (Both tested against Sheik)

 

[MasterExocuter]

I was testing Dthrow in training mode, and dthrow up-B might be a thing, as I was able to get the last hit of the up-B (the one that kills) off at high percent in training mode. depending how the opponent DIs, it might not work, but it's still worth a try.

 

[RadianB]

I was testing Dthrow in training mode, and dthrow up-B might be a thing, as I was able to get the last hit of the up-B (the one that kills) off at high percent in training mode. depending how the opponent DIs, it might not work, but it's still worth a try.

I've been trying that for the past couple of days and a good opponent is always going to DI away from Charizard so landing Up B after Down throw won't be possible at kill percents.

 

[Coonce]

DDD is the most resilient character against dying off the top. Yes, Bowser is heavier but DDD falls much faster and fall speed is more of a factor than weight in determining death percents off the top.

Long story short: Whatever percent DDD dies from up throw, everyone else is guaranteed to die at that percent.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

DDD is the most resilient character against dying off the top. Yes, Bowser is heavier but DDD falls much faster and fall speed is more of a factor than weight in determining death percents off the top.

Long story short: Whatever percent DDD dies from up throw, everyone else is guaranteed to die at that percent.

That would explain why falcon randomly doesn't die from uthrow until 150ish %

 

[MagiusNecros]

Thoughts on Utilt?

 

[Shog]

Thoughts on Utilt?

A very good move which I can't use for the life of me. I mean it has no hurtbox(Charizard Wings=swords confirmed)
it is also fast and you can play the "will he air dodge so I can smash him" game

 

[MagiusNecros]

A very good move which I can't use for the life of me. I mean it has no hurtbox(Charizard Wings=swords confirmed)
it is also fast and you can play the "will he air dodge so I can smash him" game

It feels like a "I dare you to land on me" move.

I mean we don't have to go air battle.

I treat it like Bowser's upsmash.

 

[Shog]

It feels like a "I dare you to land on me" move.

I mean we don't have to go air battle.

I treat it like Bowser's upsmash.

Oh wow, that's actually perfectly comparable. It is like using Bowser's Up Smash, nice analogy there.
(now I gonna read how Bowser use Up smash and apply it to Charizard...)

 

[MagiusNecros]

Really simple. If you know they want to attack you you can use u tilt like Bowser upsmash since you are invincible and the opponent isn't.

Only difference is no autoguard or shellguard.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Usmash is amazing. I use it as an Oos Option, as a roll punish, a spot dodge punish, a juggle tool, a ledge guard... It's a frame 6 move with a massive disjointed hitbox that kills. What more could you want in a Usmash?



I've been doing a fair amount of labbing with Char lately. I'm starting to get the feeling that his neutral game isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be.
His dash is probably one of the most underutilized things that he has. With the exception of a few startup frames, his dash functions similarly to a wavedash in that Charizard is able to do whatever he wants out of it. His skid frames are so short that you don't even have to bother using slow run to cut down the lag. It's practically instant.

You can take advatange of this to quickly dash back and forth while skipping the long pivot animation (dash trotting required if done in quick succession). It makes Charizard's bait and punish game that much more unpredictable. It gives him some safer means of approach. It lets you re-position yourself quickly while remaining grounded. Why is this not taken advantage of more often?

I feel like his dash skid is going to end up being a key part of his kit at higher levels of play once people start to really figure him out.

 

[Oblivion129]

Interesting stuff (Charizard starts at 1:21)
Doublejab cancel looks good at KO percent.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Woah, I wasn't aware that Dthrow > bair was a thing. I need to start using that more often.

I have noticed the Uthrow > Flarebltiz thing tho, but the % seemed to be REALLY specific to land it, and I have no idea if rage messes that up or not. (maybe i'm just bad)

His Jab 2 has always been amazing

 

[Shog]

I have noticed the Uthrow > Flarebltiz thing tho, but the % seemed to be REALLY specific to land it, and I have no idea if rage messes that up or not. (maybe i'm just bad)

Omg Guys.
We need to know the Upthrow -> Dragon Rush(which has less startup!) % on all characters...that could be jankiest killing method in the game.

HAIL ZARD

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Omg Guys.
We need to know the Upthrow -> Dragon Rush(which has less startup!) % on all characters...that could be jankiest killing method in the game.

HAIL ZARD

We Mii Brawler up in heir

 

[Steeler]

We need to figure out how DI can affect things and if there is anything we can do when they DI away from us

edit nevermind i guess the beginning of the vid says it was all tested for DI!

 

[Charey]

Well it's not much but I've done d-throw, dash then shield grab any defensive aerial for a semi-chain grab. They can jump out but Zard is good at juggling people and they don't have a second jump anymore if they do.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Omg Guys.
We need to know the Upthrow -> Dragon Rush(which has less startup!) % on all characters...that could be jankiest killing method in the game.

HAIL ZARD

All we need is easy dragon rush kills in both directions.

 

[Saturn_]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Dreamland64 is actually Charizard's best stage. It has platforms that help with upthrow queso while having a lower ceiling than Battlefield. Also, unlike TnC the platform layout allows Charizard to be extremely mobile and get around easily. What do you guys think?

 

[AetherStorm]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Dreamland64 is actually Charizard's best stage. It has platforms that help with upthrow queso while having a lower ceiling than Battlefield. Also, unlike TnC the platform layout allows Charizard to be extremely mobile and get around easily. What do you guys think?

I like it, but the wind really messes up a lot of crucial zoning.

 

[Saturn_]

I'm still learning to use Zard's new dthrow...at 0% (or low percent) does dthrow-sh-upair true combo any members of the cast? I was testing out combos on Rob and Luigi and it seems like some members of the cast are the right floatiness to be true combo'd by dthrow-sh-upair, is this reliable?