Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Steeler]

I guess, but why do that when you can fair and get what seems like a guaranteed jab afterward?

 

[Saturn_]

I guess, but why do that when you can fair and get what seems like a guaranteed jab afterward?

IF (if) the sh-upair is guaranteed, then it's more consistent against the floaty members of the cast. It's very easy to miss a character like Luigi with a short/fullhop-fair.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Don't think that Dthrow > Uair is guaranteed at low % but at ~80% (aka kill % on a lot of characters) if you can bait an air dodge you can get under them and uair for the kill.

 

[Masonomace]

I humbly apologize if this kind of post doesn't belong in the Zard's Metagame thread, since it's a question. I couldn't find a Q & A thread to ask here.

Just wondering, but does Charizard's invincibility window in his F-smash increase the longer you charge the move? I'm getting surprising results messing around with the move that lead me to believe that it may or may not increase.

 

[Saturn_]

I humbly apologize if this kind of post doesn't belong in the Zard's Metagame thread, since it's a question. I couldn't find a Q & A thread to ask here.

Just wondering, but does Charizard's invincibility window in his F-smash increase the longer you charge the move? I'm getting surprising results messing around with the move that lead me to believe that it may or may not increase.

No. He has five frames of invincibility from frames 22-26. Hitbox is active frame 22. You are most likely encountering the increased damage resulting in the move overpowering attacks that it might not otherwise.

EDIT: Zard's frame data http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Charizard

 

[Masonomace]

No. He has five frames of invincibility from frames 22-26. Hitbox is active frame 22. You are most likely encountering the increased damage resulting in the move overpowering attacks that it might not otherwise.

EDIT: Zard's frame data http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Charizard

I see. Then it was the former thought that I had in mind that involves the move used against Zard's F-smash. Thank you for the answer.

EDIT: Actually, y'see, the move used against Zard's F-smash was Shulk's Vision counters. All 3 Vision variants including Vision, Dash Vision, & Power Vision all slow down time so-to-speak. Basically I got interesting results from countering Zard's F-smash uncharged, fully charged, & semi-charged.

I asked the question because Power Vision Forwarded would be able to counter an uncharged F-smash, but not a fully charged F-smash. Moves that possess invincibility windows like Jigglypuff's Rest & Zard's F-smash can potentially avoid being hit by Shulk's Vision counter since the invincibility frames also get slowed down.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Even if there's a thread for this already, having a discussion about it in the metagame thread would help as well; What are some secondaries that could help offset Charizard's weaker match-ups? Ones that you all personally have? (I also ask this because so far I've been too stubborn to consider one. If I was just talking about characters we played on the side, I would pick Dr. Mario, but I don't think he covers any of Charizard's problem match-ups.)

Bowser might be a good choice against Mega Man, for example. Unlike Charizard or the other characters, at low percents Mega Man's pellets (lemons) don't actually make him flinch, which lets him attack and close the distance a lot more efficiently than Charizard could.

 

[Dingo1011]

Now that I'm finally starting to play smash 4 more instead of pm only, has anyone played around with an edge canceled flareblitz during the recoil part of it?
The only way I see it being useful at all is in battlefield for example:

-you're at the ledge and the opponent is below the nearest platform around the middle portion

-You drop off the ledge and jump then perform a flareblitz which is most likely to get blocked

-but then when Zard is falling hopelessly, you can edge cancel it off the platform and possibly try to punish an attempted punish with fair or use the super armor from down b or up b to cut through the attack? (Just an idea without any application)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I see. Then it was the former thought that I had in mind that involves the move used against Zard's F-smash. Thank you for the answer.

EDIT: Actually, y'see, the move used against Zard's F-smash was Shulk's Vision counters. All 3 Vision variants including Vision, Dash Vision, & Power Vision all slow down time so-to-speak. Basically I got interesting results from countering Zard's F-smash uncharged, fully charged, & semi-charged.

I asked the question because Power Vision Forwarded would be able to counter an uncharged F-smash, but not a fully charged F-smash. Moves that possess invincibility windows like Jigglypuff's Rest & Zard's F-smash can potentially avoid being hit by Shulk's Vision counter since the invincibility frames also get slowed down.

Highe damage = more hitlag maybe?

Hitlag doesn't increase the frame counter.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Don't think that Dthrow > Uair is guaranteed at low % but at ~80% (aka kill % on a lot of characters) if you can bait an air dodge you can get under them and uair for the kill.

Also try to make sure the enemy is behind Charizard, U-Air's hitbox starts right when Charizard's head starts to go in the other direction. Might have some juggling potential, the range is good for a killing attack.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Rock Smashing someone shielding on a platform above you will shield poke pretty often, depending on the character and your spacing. You want that rock as deep inside their shield as possible. Short hop so you won't land on the platform and get punished if you don't poke.

Wouldn't Up-Tilt and Up-Smash be better since they're a bit safer, and won't encourage your enemy to come out and hit you? Even if they don't do as much shield damage, they seem generally more practical in most situations. Charizard doesn't seem like he can do much to pressure shields except maybe Flamethrower and sometimes his jab, I don't think, especially not with his grab.

On that note, how does Charizard manage to pressure shields? Jab has a decent range and is easy to pull out without being punished, N-Air sometimes, (especially the sweetspot) Flamethrower usually makes itself safe... Since Charizard mostly benefits from being able to just force players back, even if we do have the option to grab, how do we safely combat run-up shield tactics? Even if I abuse my shield myself, I don't know how to counter enemies who do the same back to me, especially if they happen to have a faster character (Falcon, ZSS), or have the range to contest with Charizard (Rosalina, Mega Man). What are your personal strategies? I don't think F-Tilt or D-Tilt is usually safe against a crafty enemy, either.

 

[Masonomace]

Highe damage = more hitlag maybe?

Hitlag doesn't increase the frame counter.

Could be this, eh it probably is. What's odd is that a regular Power Vision will counter Zard's F-smash whether it's uncharged or fully charged. I'd have to study this a bit more to get a better understanding of it. Still, Zard's invincibility is quite something.

 

[RadianB]

A Marth tried to counter my forward smash but it did nothing against me, it was pretty cool.

 

[Saturn_]

Even if there's a thread for this already, having a discussion about it in the metagame thread would help as well; What are some secondaries that could help offset Charizard's weaker match-ups? Ones that you all personally have? (I also ask this because so far I've been too stubborn to consider one. If I was just talking about characters we played on the side, I would pick Dr. Mario, but I don't think he covers any of Charizard's problem match-ups.)

Bowser might be a good choice against Mega Man, for example. Unlike Charizard or the other characters, at low percents Mega Man's pellets (lemons) don't actually make him flinch, which lets him attack and close the distance a lot more efficiently than Charizard could.

I'm still trying to identify Charizard's truly awful matchups. Other than and I don't have strong feelings on what Zard's worst MUs are. For what it's worth I also play .

 

[RadianB]

Charizard can handle Villager and Rosalina pretty well. With customs on Rosalina isn't even a problem. From my experience Toon Link seems to be a difficult match up, he can get away with spamming bombs the entire match and his returning boomerang prevents you from using flamethrower for too long when you jump over it to punish.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Wait, Charizard can handle Rosalina? Could we use the general match-up discussion thread for this? o-o I had no idea that it was a fight worth fighting.
http://smashboards.com/forums/charizard.468/

 

[-LzR-]

Dragon Rush owns Rosaluma. If you don't use it you might as well give up, it changes the MU into possible our favor.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Dtilt owns Rosa too. If you can force rosa to the ledge, dtilt instnatly disposes of luma.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Hmmmm... I suggest that in the next match-up discussion we talk about Rosalina.
http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-mega-evolve-charizard-matchup-archive-come-on-and-vote.407883/

 

[Steeler]

jab combo is also a free fair on luma that will often knock it off

it's really easy to kill luma as zard, like i just end up knocking it off on accident while i'm fighting rosa

 

[MintyBreeze]

On certain characters would Jab to Rock Smash be a good idea/mix-up? It stalls Charizard in the air, and although it doesn't do much more damage than F-Air, it makes him invincible to where he might be able to knock an enemy off the ledge. That, and it works to higher percents than F-Air. Could it be a decent mix-up to F-Air, N-Air, and U-Air?

 

[charizardbro]

@ MintyBreeze I think it would be worth it as a mixup if you notice that your opponent keeps challenging Zard's aerial followups out of Jab 3. You'd probably get punished badly if you miss though.

What I want to know is if anybody here has tried to stage spike with rock smash. You can reverse your momentum as soon as you drop off of the ledge or use it on recoveries with bigger hitboxes. If you jump first it also stalls your momentum a little. Bair hits harder but this is still fun to play around with. Thoughts?

Edit: I'm sure most of you all know this by now but for those that don't, all of Charizard's aerials will autocancel if you buffer them out immediately out his double jump, including bair. You can be as close to the ground as you need to before the second jump. You can also fastfall all aerials and still have them AC out of a full hop + double jump.

 

[Saturn_]

All of Texas has gone to Customs Off. What does this mean for my Zard play, in terms of MU? I of course ran 1311.

 

[Steeler]

You have lost a good option for getting out of bad air to air situations. DR is also pretty low risk decent reward against characters who can't punish it after shielding the first hit. Blitz does some of what DR does, but is always more punishable, even when you do it right since you take 5 or 10% for it. It is a lot slower to cooldown so you cannot threaten an edgeguard/gimp with it without dying if you whiff. It's just not as good.

 

[Saturn_]

I'm really interested to know how this impacts MUs. One of the reasons I think is so bad for Zard is that Flare Blitz is pretty much useless while Luma is still alive.

 

[Charey]

I'm really interested to know how this impacts MUs. One of the reasons I think is so bad for Zard is that Flare Blitz is pretty much useless while Luma is still alive.

Well sometimes eating a smash to FB Luma off stage can be worth it but FB isn't that useful against someone who doesn't need to commit to attacks very much.

 

[charizardbro]

I'm really interested to know how this impacts MUs. One of the reasons I think is so bad for Zard is that Flare Blitz is pretty much useless while Luma is still alive.

It depends how frequently you used DR and what matchups you actually used it to attack/approach in. When we discuss MUs here, we kinda point out what would be an option on paper but in practice, a lot of it comes down to the player's personal preference for the MU unless there is literally only one option available.

What matchups did you find yourself relying more on DR in? How do you use DR in those MUs?

 

[AetherStorm]

Obviously losing dragon rush is bad, but I also rely on rock hurl to get out of fast character's combos, like sheik, fox, etc.

 

[-LzR-]

Going without customs is like banning color TVs. Slap some sense into those TOs and tell them to not ban half of the moves in the game because they can.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

The ****ty CptnAwsum villager and Static Manny are what really killed customs. No one wants to be the one that gets whined at for deciding that certain moves get banned, so banning all of them is the easiest way. Its a little disheartening that no one wants to be the one to take the community backlash for the better good of the game.

 

[Saturn_]

In bracket tonight, in a match game 1 I went against a and won, game 2 went against a and lost, and game 3 went against and won. I knew the guy and he said he had tried to prepare against Zard since he knew I play it.

How do you guys feel about the MK matchup? I feel like we can outspace him and Flare Blitz is suuuuper powerful against him. I think you actually win neutral against him.

 

[MisterDom]

In bracket tonight, in a match game 1 I went against a and won, game 2 went against a and lost, and game 3 went against and won. I knew the guy and he said he had tried to prepare against Zard since he knew I play it.

How do you guys feel about the MK matchup? I feel like we can outspace him and Flare Blitz is suuuuper powerful against him. I think you actually win neutral against him.

Question @ Saturn_ ! I was wondering what you think of the Jigglypuff and Charizard matchup. Advatages? Disadvantages? (More disadvantages preferably so I'll be ready for ya in a few weeks. lol)

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, I'm a Olimar main who is messing around with other characters to find a secondary. I like how Charizard works as a character and might make it my secondary or at least a character I'll play more frequently than others, but I'm not sure on what basics I should be aware of when playing Zard. I don't see a Q&A thread here in the sub-forum, so I'm asking here for any advice.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Jab is fast and good for catching approaches. Up smash is also really fast, and it starts on frame 5 or 6 I believe, though sometimes people fall out of it. Don't flare blitz unless you want a stylish hard read. Rock smash has good super armor that prevents zard from getting too comboed to death. The super armor for rock smash starts on frame 8. Up air throw kills HELLA early. Exact percents for each character here.

Its late so I'm goin to sleep. Will post more stuff tomorrow.

Its tomorrow. Up air kills really early and can juggle. Up air has invincibility on head and wings. Fsmash has invisibility on head and neck. For the most part wings are invincible, Utilt kills and is good anti air. Wings are invincible on utilt. Fair can kill at 90% near ledge. Uthrow combos to fair at low percents. Dthrow is the combo throw. You can get fair out of dthrow, or you can bait an air dodge and go for the up air. I've also heard RAR Bair can be used from dthrow, but it's incredibly risky. Bair is really good for killing, but its hard to land. However, there is a sour spot (tail 11%), a sweet spot (flame 15%), and a middle spot (slightly before the flame 13%). Both the 13% and 15% hitboxes kill, but the 15% kills earlier. Dair spikes where you would expect and higher up into the body. Up air also hits inside of the body. Fair has a sweetspot on the outside of the visual effect, and a sour spot on the inside.

I think I got most of the info that peeps might want to know.

 

[Saturn_]

Question @ Saturn_ ! I was wondering what you think of the Jigglypuff and Charizard matchup. Advatages? Disadvantages? (More disadvantages preferably so I'll be ready for ya in a few weeks. lol)

Jigglypuff has a terrible matchup with Zard. Fair beats out everything Jiggly wants to do and dtilt/ftilt completely outspace her. Getting Zard to sit in shield, trying to shieldgrab Jiggly, is probably her best strat because you can use the multiple jumps to bait a grab attempt and then punish. Zard is also vulnerable to roll-rests because it is possible to get inside his range and rest him when he can't hit you.

 

[MisterDom]

Jigglypuff has a terrible matchup with Zard. Fair beats out everything Jiggly wants to do and dtilt/ftilt completely outspace her. Getting Zard to sit in shield, trying to shieldgrab Jiggly, is probably her best strat because you can use the multiple jumps to bait a grab attempt and then punish. Zard is also vulnerable to roll-rests because it is possible to get inside his range and rest him when he can't hit you.

Thanks for the tip

 

[Saturn_]

Thanks for the tip

People are saying Zard's dtilt got buffed so that it hits characters at point blank. This improves his matchup with Jiggs.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Zard's dtilt apparently got a windbox on dtilt to bring peeps into the hitbox. Not sure how that helps with the jiggs matchup, since from what I've seen Jiggs likes to stay in the air.

 

[Saturn_]

Zard's dtilt apparently got a windbox on dtilt to bring peeps into the hitbox. Not sure how that helps with the jiggs matchup, since from what I've seen Jiggs likes to stay in the air.

Very small characters like and can/could get inside Charizard's reach, absolutely. I haven't had a chance to get in the lab, does this push someone sitting in shield? Simply moving them away matters.

 

[charizardbro]

@Saturn I've gotten it to push enemies in shield a couple of times. I haven't labbed up yet though.

Also, I haven't seen comments anywhere on here about how Zard can ledge drop, double jump, Fair, land on stage, and still autocancel the Fair. I was so shocked when I got that to work the other day. The timing is just really strict. It gives us another ledge option that I haven't ever seen mentioned here. Does anybody use it?