Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[charizardbro]

Wtf are you supposed to do against zero suit samus?! That's side b to grab combo is impossible to avoid. And if you get juggled forget about it!

The first step is to not get Nair'd or Zair'd at low percent (the thing you called side b is Zair). That's also the second step. Also spot dodge the tether grab in neutral if possible. I think Zair -> grab and Nair -> grab are guaranteed at low percent. Nair -> Dspecial (flip kick) is also guaranteed at the right percent.

Also don't do dumb stuff at around 40 percent because that'll be 2 Uairs to Uspecial which might end your stock. Get to the ledge if she's juggling you but don't get trumped. Don't use Flamethrower.

You pretty much need one or two enormous reads/gimps for this MU not to suck.

 

[Jmacz]

Has anyone here started messing around with Option Selects yet? I've just recently stated practicing them and though I'm still terrible at it I'm just trying to get down what moves to use when. Jab against grounded attacks and Usmash against air attacks are obvious, as they are our two fastest options. But what is best used for moves with a lot of end lag? F-Smash comes out to slow, and D-Smash has meh range. F-Tilt/D-Tilt are probably the best options, but only F-Tilt is really optimal at high percents near the ledge. I'm tempted to just try F-Smashing, but I fear it's to slow and just won't work out well.

Also, on a side note what are the general thoughts on using the c-stick for tilts? I know with Pikachu it's beneficial to do this, but I'm not convinced Charizard get's the same benefits.

 

[charizardbro]

Has anyone here started messing around with Option Selects yet? I've just recently stated practicing them and though I'm still terrible at it I'm just trying to get down what moves to use when. Jab against grounded attacks and Usmash against air attacks are obvious, as they are our two fastest options. But what is best used for moves with a lot of end lag? F-Smash comes out to slow, and D-Smash has meh range. F-Tilt/D-Tilt are probably the best options, but only F-Tilt is really optimal at high percents near the ledge. I'm tempted to just try F-Smashing, but I fear it's to slow and just won't work out well.

Also, on a side note what are the general thoughts on using the c-stick for tilts? I know with Pikachu it's beneficial to do this, but I'm not convinced Charizard get's the same benefits.

I think if you go for Fsmash it will really depend on the endlag of whatever you're hit with. You could try it but I feel like Fly and Dsmash might be a little more universal.

Or we could just steal this and call it a day.

Edit: Something like Shield -> Down -> Up B -> F/Dsmash (as opposed to waiting) -> Jab

 

[Jmacz]

I think if you go for Fsmash it will really depend on the endlag of whatever you're hit with. You could try it but I feel like Fly and Dsmash might be a little more universal.

Or we could just steal this and call it a day.

Edit: Something like Shield -> Down -> Up B -> F/Dsmash (as opposed to waiting) -> Jab

I wasn't aware we could put in that many imputs, so would that work out the same as the one you linked?

Spot Dodge on wiff, Up B on Perfect Shield, F/Dsmash on laggy move, Jab on Normal Shield?

 

[charizardbro]

I wasn't aware we could put in that many imputs, so would that work out the same as the one you linked?

Spot Dodge on wiff, Up B on Perfect Shield, F/Dsmash on laggy move, Jab on Normal Shield?

You can do as many inputs as your fingers let you. I haven't tried the ZSS one or the one I suggested but I imagine it would be pretty hard.

Spot dodge on whiff for sure. Up B on perfect shield for sure.

I'm just not sure how big the difference in shield stun is between a perfect shield on a strong, laggy move and a normal shield on any other. I think in some cases the shield stun for a normal shield would be lower though (normal shield a jab < perfect shield a falcon knee). In which case, you might use a smash attack to punish weaker moves on normal shield which would be bad. I'd try it but I don't have a C stick which makes it pretty hard.

 

[dangeraaron10]

Has nothing changed with 1.1.1? I don't see anyone starting a topic on it.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Check the Wii U and 3DS discussion thread. Not much was changed on Zard

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Sinking skull got some changes. It ends faster now.

I dunno if that means it's safe on block, but it might be cool to test out.

 

[Steeler]

Still not safe, still not good.

Seems they buffed a lot of customs that were considered the absolute worst in the game, so that's interesting. They didn't do enough though. Skull still has no armor like Rock Smash, still does no added shield damage like DK Headbutt.

The new shield stun mechanics don't really help Charizard much because of how much cooldown he already has. But the change is most relevant for dtilt. This combined with the reduction of self blockfreeze from last patch means it's around -15 (-8 with shield drop lag) on block now. Pretty good for how much range it has.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Shield stun helps rock smash quite well.

 

[Steeler]

Oh also people can't roll away from the second part of Blast Burn after shielding the first hit, so at least all that shield damage is guaranteed.

I don't see how the shield stun really helps Rock Smash; it's still wildly unsafe on shield. If there is a change to shield regen rates then that's what would make it better for hitting shields.

 

[Jmacz]

Is Fair or Nair safe on shield now if spaced correctly?

 

[JJBro1]

Ok up throw must have been nerfed I couldn't kill Dr. Mario at 126% with rage.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Charizard on paper is much worse because his two main strengths were OOS and grab reward, both of which matter less in the new meta. Granted I haven't had much practical experience with him yet, but this does create big problems for heavies on top of the ones they already have. Ike is the only one with the tools to be remotely relevant in the meta going forward, and the lower tiered heavies could very well wind up being straight trash in a way that no character was in 1.1.0.

 

[charizardbro]

Charizard on paper is much worse because his two main strengths were OOS and grab reward, both of which matter less in the new meta. Granted I haven't had much practical experience with him yet, but this does create big problems for heavies on top of the ones they already have. Ike is the only one with the tools to be remotely relevant in the meta going forward, and the lower tiered heavies could very well wind up being straight trash in a way that no character was in 1.1.0.

I haven't played the patch yet but I think you're taking the nuclear option on this one.

The changes to shield stun go both ways. It makes our punishes out of shield less appealing, sure, but it also makes our approaches on shield more appealing. If it makes Fair a viable approach option in MUs where we rely on punishes out of shield because we can't approach with Fair, we may not be screwed after all. Same thing goes for Ftilt/Dtilt on shield. You should also bear in mind that people can space aerials out of your shield grab range anyway so I'd imagine it wouldn't even matter sometimes. Having a less usable Usmash and Fly OoS is less than ideal but I imagine we won't be the only ones with these issues.

All I'm trying to say is that the changes to shield stun are a boon to offense in general. If the meta shifts towards an emphasis on shield pressure, it may be time to reapproach some match ups. I think what still remains to be seen is the extent to which the shield stun changes effect our MUs.

The patch hasn't even been out a week yet, m8. Chill.

 

[Jmacz]

Whoops posted in the wrong thread sorry about that. To keep this OT, has anyone gone in and tested to see if any of our stuff is safe on shield now? I don't have anyone to practice with or I would.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I haven't written a wall of text here in a while...

's kinda nostalgic...

Spoiler: Optimistic Views about the patch

Charizard was never the best at punishing Oos to begin with. Any good opponent will know how to space around shield grabs. Fly is a bit less viable this patch, but only against multi hits. It still works out of a perfect sheild.

Fair was already pri safe on block assuming you spaced it perfectly. Nair might become useful as a shield mixup. For those who might not know, it's much easier to land the sweetspot if you fast fall Nair out of a full hop. Doing so adds a few extra frames of shield stun (something to do with the damage formula). This is relatively safe to do and helps keep your opponent guessing. You only need to toss off their timing by a few frames. If you can get them to miss the perfect shield, you can mix them up with a variety of options from jabs, to grab or pivot grab, to filts, to even rocksmash if they try to attack OoS.

Another small tip worth mentioning is that you can shave off a good 5-10 (<- just a rough estimate) frames of cooldown by delaying your Short Hopped Nairs by a little bit. It makes the move safer on block, and it allows for quicker followups on hit. Certain followups are only guaranteed this way.

We don't have shiek levels of safety when we hit a shield, but we can at least mix our opponents up if we space our moves properly and make clever use of our autocancels. Charizard's gameplan after the patch shifts away from Bait/Punish, and a bit more towards Spacing/Offense.

My thoughts on the patch anyway.

Charizard on paper is much worse because his two main strengths were OOS and grab reward, both of which matter less in the new meta. Granted I haven't had much practical experience with him yet, but this does create big problems for heavies on top of the ones they already have. Ike is the only one with the tools to be remotely relevant in the meta going forward, and the lower tiered heavies could very well wind up being straight trash in a way that no character was in 1.1.0.

His main stregnths imo have always been his range, power, and terrifying advantaged state. His decent juggles and combo strings paired with his hard hitting moves let him punish his opponents hard if they make a mistake.

His Oos and Grab game were a means to get him into that scary advantaged state. The change forces us to learn his neutral game instead of putting such emphasis on grabs. I like that the game has shifted more towards spacing and less towards BnB Grab combos.

Also, keep in mind Charizard's biggest weakness was getting shield grabbed by characters like falcon, mario, and ZSS. Any character with good grab combos that can also juggle us well gave us problems. It's both good and bad for us. I doubt that charizard is going to be trash after this patch. He still does what he does best. Spaces around, looks for an oppening, and beats his opponents to dust when they mess up.

 

[Jmacz]

Didn't get to test much because my friend grew disinterested quickly but Charizard's Fair is safe on shield when perfectly spaced against Marth and Luigi. His Nair is also safe against both of them, but only when perfectly spaced and sweetspotted. My friend tried jabbing, dash attacking, dash grabbing, as well as Marth's side B and wasn't able to ever punish me when I spaced it correctly. I'm not sure about other characters, and I wish I could of tested more. Luigi's traction doesn't make him a good test subject, and Marth doesn't have many fast OOS options so some characters still may be able to punish us. Dtilt and Ftilt are also safe on Luigi when spaced perfectly and sweet spotted in Ftilts case. Not sure if any of this was the case before, but if it wasn't at least the Luigi MU will be more manageable now as it will be a lot easier to wall him out with good spacing.

 

[charizardbro]

Didn't get to test much because my friend grew disinterested quickly but Charizard's Fair is safe on shield when perfectly spaced against Marth and Luigi. His Nair is also safe against both of them, but only when perfectly spaced and sweetspotted. My friend tried jabbing, dash attacking, dash grabbing, as well as Marth's side B and wasn't able to ever punish me when I spaced it correctly. I'm not sure about other characters, and I wish I could of tested more. Luigi's traction doesn't make him a good test subject, and Marth doesn't have many fast OOS options so some characters still may be able to punish us. Dtilt and Ftilt are also safe on Luigi when spaced perfectly and sweet spotted in Ftilts case. Not sure if any of this was the case before, but if it wasn't at least the Luigi MU will be more manageable now as it will be a lot easier to wall him out with good spacing.

Did he buffer the dash during shield stun? I'm not sure how I feel about that one for Marth since dashing after shielding is supposed to be better than it was pre patch (assuming you hit their shield during shield lag).

Also sweet spot Nair only has 1 more frame of shield stun that sour spot. I think it has more to do with spacing and less to do with sweet spot/sour spot if it's actually safe.

Edit: If you get a chance, have him try unshield -> Ftilt/Fsmash for a punish on Nair. I'd be shocked if Zard can outspace that without doing a retreating Nair.

 

[Jmacz]

Did he buffer the dash during shield stun? I'm not sure how I feel about that one for Marth since dashing after shielding is supposed to be better than it was pre patch (assuming you hit their shield during shield lag).

Also sweet spot Nair only has 1 more frame of shield stun that sour spot. I think it has more to do with spacing and less to do with sweet spot/sour spot if it's actually safe.

Edit: If you get a chance, have him try unshield -> Ftilt/Fsmash for a punish on Nair. I'd be shocked if Zard can outspace that without doing a retreating Nair.

I'll try and get him to test it with me again next time I'm at his house, but I'm not sure if those will work either? I was able to shield his jab which comes out at frame 5, F-Tilt comes out frame 8 and F-Smash at frame 10 so I'm pretty sure we would be able to get our shield up before he can hit us with anything. With Nair, I was able to turn around and take a step or two away from him before his attack would even come out, so maybe a buffered dash attack/dash grab would work but I don't think Marth is quick enough to punish us from a standing position.

Edit: I'll try testing on Little Mac, Shiek, Greninja, and Charizard next time as well. Mac has a frame 1 jab, Shiek frame 2, Greninja frame 3, and Charizard's is frame 4. Any other quick, rangy moves I should test it against? These were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

 

[Steeler]

I got my first dthrow combo kill the other day, dthrow fair near the edge. ROB was at 103 after. Imagine if they'd given us just a couple more frames, how strong our hoo ha game would be.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

It's easy to get kills with Dthrow into Uair/Fly

Uair if they don't Jump away or Airdodge Fly if they do~

if you know they're going to air dodge, you can even fly on reaction.
Our hoo-hah game is pretty scary

 

[Jmacz]

It's easy to get kills with Dthrow into Uair/Fly

Uair if they don't Jump away or Airdodge Fly if they do~

if you know they're going to air dodge, you can even fly on reaction.
Our hoo-hah game is pretty scary

You can punish air dodges with either move rather easily. What I like to do is jump at them and immediatley fast fall, jump again and quickly up air or up B them. Works like a charm.

 

[Virum]

It's easy to get kills with Dthrow into Uair/Fly

Uair if they don't Jump away or Airdodge Fly if they do~

if you know they're going to air dodge, you can even fly on reaction.
Our hoo-hah game is pretty scary

Both are easily avoidable by DI-ing away and double jumping though. It's even less reliable than Sheik's DThrow to UAir/Up B. If they double jump away they can react to Fly, time an air dodge and hard punish the whiff because Zard then becomes a sitting duck.

Against good opponents with enough knowledge on how to DI the move one should seldom be getting kills off of DThrow. You're better off whittling them away then going for the consistent, reliable UThrow.

 

[Steeler]

Both are easily avoidable by DI-ing away and double jumping though. It's even less reliable than Sheik's DThrow to UAir/Up B. If they double jump away they can react to Fly, time an air dodge and hard punish the whiff because Zard then becomes a sitting duck.

Against good opponents with enough knowledge on how to DI the move one should seldom be getting kills off of DThrow. You're better off whittling them away then going for the consistent, reliable UThrow.

yeah, uair/fly never work if they DI away. they just have to take the fair. some characters get combo'd into fair for a LONG time tho, like 70s - these characters may want to DI in/up to mix the zard up. then is uair/fly a good option. uair moreso - not a big fan of fly's risk.

 

[Bloodcross]

mix in immediate fthrows at the ledge as well to possibly trick the opponent and watch him die at roughly 110% (just pay attention to your rage beforehand)

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I've been messing around with Zard after the patch and I honestly think he's gotten to a point where he can be called as mid-tier, and definitely one of the best of the heavies. He's fast on the ground and has a solid dash attack. His quick aerials make for a good approach option when in neutral and Flamethrower is great at spacing since it can cancel out and destroy other projectiles as well; which makes it invaluable in the Villager MU, where they're going to try and keep you away from them because Charizard does best when he's in his opponent's face and attacking them close-quarters. Our DAir is among the fastest spikes in the game, too. We have both a kill throw and a combo throw, something I believe only we and DK have out of the heavies (though I might be wrong).

Flare Blitz is a ferocious kill move because of it's absurd power, but the self damage and the predictability makes it less viable than Jab, FSmash or Grab to UThrow OOS. On shield break, it's a monster of a kill move, though. Honestly, the only glaring flaw I can really find with Zard outside of his meh recovery (when you can't use Dragon Rush) is the landing lag on his aerials; and even then, his aerials are so quick you shouldn't really be landing with them all the time. He's a solid mid-tier character.

I've played my share of Zero Suit Samus and Shiek and have managed to hold my own, even if it's not always easy to do.

 

[Jmacz]

Did some more testing on some OOS stuff. Marth's up B did not work. I also tested with Little Mac's jab and he couldn't punish us. Then I tested Shieks Fair, and we were getting mixed results. My gut tells me that Nair was safe but Fair was not, though I may be wrong on this because my friend doesn't use Shiek so the testing was so so.

 

[Bloodcross]

charizard vs luigi

idk it might be in our favor now lol.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Lately, I haven't been feeling helpless in any matchups as Zard. I can legit see him rising into high tier eventually.

...still need a secondary for Zero Suit tho

 

[Steeler]

Tbh I always thought Zard beat Luigi, Flamethrower ****s on any kind of campy zoning he wants to do and Zard naturally deals with aggression well, especially from a low range floaty like Weegee.

 

[RadianB]

Not to mention that Charizard absolutely wrecks Luigi's recovery.

 

[Davregis]

Lately, I haven't been feeling helpless in any matchups as Zard. I can legit see him rising into high tier eventually.

...still need a secondary for Zero Suit tho

"don't play Charizard, play Sheik"
if she gets hit with the nerfbat again, ZSS will be the best secondary for ZSS

 

[Virum]

I whipped up a list of adjustments I would like to see for Zard that I feel would help him become a more viable solo character at high level. One may argue this seems like an excessive list considering the buffs this character has already received, but I still think even with those considered this character has a little ways to go before he can reliably compete and get results at top level mainly on his own.

http://pastebin.com/0em8Dmgu

tl;dr:

• Faster ground acceleration
• Improved air physics
• Slightly improved tilt game
• More reliable USmash
• Less landing lag on all aerials
• A slightly less punishing Flare Blitz that's also more advantageous on hit
• More reliable Fly

 

[Steeler]

An overlooked issue is his very low traction (only Luigi is worse). Hurts his out of shield options quite a bit.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Does anyone have the video of Charizards dash dance?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Hey guys I don't know if anyone even uses smashboards but wanna critique me and say what I did wrong?
Me VS GDX

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/v/23877652
Time @ 23:41

 

[Steeler]

Hey guys I don't know if anyone even uses smashboards but wanna critique me and say what I did wrong?
Me VS GDX

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/v/23877652
Time @ 23:41

You have an interesting playstyle, you are really read heavy with your throw setups and jabs. Same with fsmashes. It worked out quite a bit to end stocks but it also cost you stocks too. Not much I can say there because it's really different from my playstyle but it obviously works for you.

You use usmash a lot better than I do, but there were some spots where it was not the best option. For example, after you got GDX to his last stock on Dreamland, you got a dthrow but went for dash usmash. In that situation, with 94% rage fair may or may not have connected but nair is still a good option because it'll catch air dodges, may catch double jumps, and you should have enough advantage that Diddy can't throw an aerial out to hit you first. You can even RAR it to increase the chance you true combo (assuming they DI away). Then again, usmash still could have worked there if you had charged it a bit and hit him after he landed with air dodge lag. Anyway, I would try looking at all the times usmash whiffed and considering what other moves would have hit or would have at least been safer to whiff. Just something to think about.

You were able to get some nice Flare Blitzes early in the set, but he adapted pretty quickly. Same with Rock Smashes, especially with RS to cover your landings. I think pretty much every Charizard encounters this when they play a really good player like GDX. As the set wears on they stop falling for it. You can try replacing RS for Flamethrowers, regular/b-reversed/turnaround depending on positioning. Most players will stop throwing out attacks and sit in shield waiting for the RS - Flamethrower is a free chance to eat at their shield and probably get some free damage. Just be careful if they start rolling to throw off where you want to angle the Flamethrower - but that means they are giving you the chance to land without throwing anything out.

You could try using more aerials to pressure people on platforms above you. If you start off with a full hop, you can actually do three bairs in a row if you keep jumping after each one - all with no landing lag if you do it right. It's super scary for opponents when they are on the Smashville platform while it's over the abyss - if they get anxious they will run into it and probably die. I think you had a chance for this at one point in the set, but you whiffed the first bair and then backed off. Anyways, I like nair to pressure platforms because it covers a lot of space and autocancels so it's your safest option. I catch a lot of people by nairing their shield and then utilting when they drop it and try to run off or whatever.

I didn't see you get many dthrow combos at low percents, usually opting for a different throw or using dthrow usmash. I liked the fthrow into dsmash you did on Dreamland, good mixup. But I think especially in a matchup like Diddy, where you have a hard time getting in, you gotta think about taking the guaranteed damage.

Finding good spots to use Flamethrower will work wonders, it helps you maintain advantage or pressure safely for a few seconds while you plan your next move. One thing I like to do that could have helped - at 32:00 you shielded an usmash while standing on a platform. While you probably could have dropped and faired to punish, if you were not confident in that option you could have dashed off and immediately b reversed a Flamethrower onto GDX as he stood under the platform. Just a really cool, unexpected tool to use that lets you maintain pressure. As soon as they see you dashing off, pretty much no good player is going to roll into you or jump onto the platform - those two options would typically put them in a bad position, but those are the only ways to reliably get out of the Flamethrower there. Instead, he was able to pull out a banana and get a grab off it.

That's the thing about the Diddy matchup, if you don't take your chances to at least bother him when you can, it's gonna reset to neutral. Which means he's gonna pull a banana out and start shooting nuts at you and generally being a little ***** to get to, all while threatening you with ez banana kill set ups. I feel like you have to be very passive in this matchup until he has no banana and he can't pull one out safely - then you go balls to the wall aggressive.

You played very well overall, and GDX is a very good player. It's definitely not an easy matchup for Charizard, especially when they learn what to look out for.

Also Virum I finally looked at that list of proposed changes. Really good stuff, shows you understand the character. I don't think the damage buffs on some of the sourspots are necessary, especially on nair (the weakness helps combo into jab at mid percents) but the general focus on making Zard's air game not suck complete ass is spot on. xD

 

[CHOMPY]

What do you guys think of a falling Uair to utilt?

 

[Steeler]

It's cool. You can also uair into uair like Wario at some percents, I think bloodcross had a combo vid that had it. Uair is Zard's safest aerial on shield when hitting right before landing. Still not safe tho xD