Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[RadianB]

Anyone seen this: http://gfycat.com/ColdCloseLark

=/

 

[arbustopachon]

I knew zard's head hurtbox was janky, but that's kinda silly.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

And to think... Charizard's a grappler now and he has no grab range? This has to be fixed.

 

[arbustopachon]

And to think... Charizard's a grappler now and he has no grab range? This has to be fixed.

His grab range is good when compared to the rest of the characters. The problem is that his head hurtbox is too far from his body.
His janky head hurtbox also causes silly things like getting hit 3 times by MM metal blade for example.

 

[Steeler]

I think this explains why Zard jab has such tremendous range - gotta compensate for those T-rex arms. Without a disjoint, he might not even hit past where his hurtbox extends lol

 

[Pixel_]

Is his running grab as bad? And his pivot grab? I was pretty sure his grab range wasn't that bad.

 

[arbustopachon]

Is his running grab as bad? And his pivot grab? I was pretty sure his grab range wasn't that bad.

Again his grab range is not bad at all. It is longer than most other characters grab ranges, the problem is his head hurtbox extends too far from his body.
Zard's dash grab and pivot grab are pretty bad tho.

 

[C0rvus]

What are some good characters to partner with Charizard in doubles? My partner is most comfortable with Charizard so I want to try and accommodate him. Meta Knight prefers to play a supportive role, and I cannot imagine that Charizard is going to be the aggressor. Who would you want your partner to be? I'm pretty flexible. So let me know, because the event is on Saturday and I'd like some time to practice, heh. Thanks!

 

[Charey]

Generally Charizard like faster characters as doubles partners, his main issue in doubles is that he has no way to get out of a 2v1 situation so it helps to have a partner with a good way to force one of their team off him if he starts getting focused.

Sheik, Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu seem like good choices

I have also had success with a Shulk player because the range of our hitboxes take up like half the stage at all times, but that was a player who is amazing in general.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Pikachu also gets extra style points for matching a theme.

Gotta Smash 'em all.

 

[Megamang]

I really like Corrin. She has the big hitbox thing down, and with considerable disjoint too so that helps stage dominance. Since you kinda break off into groups to fight in doubles, she has nice coverage of Mario, who you'll probably see. So its really nice to have a team that doesn't both fear a really really common tournament threat.

Her fsmash covers a lot of range, and helps your team have really strong ground dominance. Having the spacing down, a dash grab can let her tipper fsmash the nerd in your hands without hurting you. You are both really survivable and heavy, and you both have a top-screen kill move. Her tilts, some smashes, and throws can setup into fly since they always knock upwards.

Having a meh projectile game overall kinda stings against really zoney teams, but holding center stage with the two is really scary for them.

speaking of vertical knockback, even when she isn't getting kills, you can get pickup juggles from something as simple as the person you are battling getting tapped with the back of her nair... seriously, she gets people into the air super super well, she just isn't top tier at following it... so you come in, with the finishing power.


And the real 'gimmick' ability they have is Zard confirming a stun gun hit with Flare Blitz. This is a deadly cross screen punish. Flare blitz in general can have some cool usage. You'll break a shield if they shield a giant bite from DFS. Rock smash on shield with a corrin behind them? She'll either hit the fsmash or break his shield.

And grounded speedsters that give the two trouble, aren't usually effective at giving them trouble both at the same time. Like sonic, who probably beats both, isn't exactly traveling around the stage dominating them (past spindash strong combo percents...) and has to avoid both DFSs, and all the hitboxes everywhere.

Another nice one my partner and I do is Zard/Robin. The spells, especially arcthunder, elfire, and sometimes Nosferatu, can all confirm into deadly zard stuff. You can rock smash to armor thru parts of Thoron while it shreds the enemies, you making the shredding worse with the Rock smash. You getting a dropped tome or sword gives you a really really strong projectile that can kinda fill some holes in Zard's 'danger zone'. And he throws them harder than robin, iirc.

 

[SmashRacer]

I don't know if this has been discussed or discovered yet, but it's about Charizard's Jab 1.
It's about the move's ability to Jab Lock opponents, and I think I may have a found a way to always get the inner hitbox that Jab Locks.
SH Nair as an example, dash towards your opponent, stop really close to the opponent and then Jab.
I made a clip to show an example of it in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WuRV3BKFC8

Edit: Added YouTube Video instead

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I've actually been practicing some jab lock setups.

My personal favorite so far is:

SH Uair, Utilt jump and footstool to fast fall jab 1.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can't seem to consistently jab lock with Usmash, is there a character only list for this or are some way harder than others for spacing.

 

[Pixel_]

Can't seem to consistently jab lock with Usmash, is there a character only list for this or are some way harder than others for spacing.

Yeah, there's a list, but I forgot where it was. There's some characters that can only get locked on a certain part of the animation, some that can't get locked at all, and some that can get locked whenever.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, there's a list, but I forgot where it was. There's some characters that can only get locked on a certain part of the animation, some that can't get locked at all, and some that can get locked whenever.

Might be time to lab tonight on this/find it.

 

[Charey]

Can't seem to consistently jab lock with Usmash, is there a character only list for this or are some way harder than others for spacing.

Most characters have to be hit during the bounce for the lock to hit, and some have smaller a window for timing then others (ZSS and Little Mac are the hardest to time.)

 

[arbustopachon]

Yeah, the only characters that can always be locked are ,,,,, , and .
The mario bros, puff and diddy are rather easy to lock imo.
The hardest to lock are zss, bayo and mac since their bounce is pretty small. You gotta start the u-smash before they touch the ground.

 

[arbustopachon]

here for those who thought zard grab range is bad.

It is pretty good for its startup tbh.

 

[Pixel_]

Does Up B snap to the ledge during the first frames or something, like Cloud's Up B? I think I got it a few times and I've never noticed it before.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I'm new to Charizard and have a few questions.

How exactly do you jab lock with up Smash and does Charizard have any practical setups into it? Is there any footage of this?

Is there a list of his true combos in general somewhere? From what I've tested I doubt he has many...

Also are there any guides/players I should be looking at?

 

[Pixel_]

• The back hitbox of Usmash's first hit can jablock. I think you can do it after a Nair, but I'll have to find a video
• I don't think there's a list of true combos, but yeah there aren't many. Dthrow > Fair is the main combo, and jab > grab is a good setup.
• There's some guides on Smashboards, actually, right here: http://smashboards.com/guides/categories/charizard.126/
• The generally accepted best Charizard main is Sharpy, go over to the Charizard video thread for a stream featuring him. I think VGbootcamp has a few Zard video too
  

 

[arbustopachon]

I'm new to Charizard and have a few questions.

How exactly do you jab lock with up Smash and does Charizard have any practical setups into it? Is there any footage of this?

Is there a list of his true combos in general somewhere? From what I've tested I doubt he has many...

Also are there any guides/players I should be looking at?

Zard's main throw combos are: D-throw > fair; D-throw> Nair; D-throw > Usmash; B-throw > fair and U-throw > fair.

Other combos include: U-tilt > U-tilt, U-tilt > U-smash, U-air > U-smash and Nair > Ftilt.

He's got a couple of situational combos too: U-throw > flare-blitz (Works at around 30% if opponent does not di up and away or downwards, pretty scary when performed on high platforms), U-throw > Fly (Works at around the same percents as u-throw flareblitz, works only if they do not di away), D-throw > Bair (strict timing, only at high percents if they Di away), D-throw > U-air (Only works if they don't di or if they di towards you) and Nair > jab (works at low percents only and is di dependent).

For mixups/setups he has jab1 > grab/fly/u-smash and jab2 > grab/fly/u-smash. Jab2 is more consistent, sometimes jab one might catch them out of guard tho.

For jablock setups he doesn't have anything guaranteed. As Pixel_ said, Nair > lock is the most consistent. On stages like battlefield you can get lock setups by nairing from below and forcing them to slide of a platform.

 

[kendikong]

My favorite combo and approach with Zard is a fast fall nair(autocancels at double jump height) to jab or dash attack which can work at a wide percent range.

 

[RadianB]

Does Up B snap to the ledge during the first frames or something, like Cloud's Up B? I think I got it a few times and I've never noticed it before.

Yeah I think it does.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Thanks for the quick responses everyone. I have a few more questions if you don't mind.

Is ledge trump bair or dair guaranteed with Charizard? Or can they jump/air dodge in time? Or is it character dependant?

Also during Rock Smash, is super armour granted towards his entire hurtbox or only near the move itself?

 

[arbustopachon]

Rockmash ha super armor during the entirety of zard's hurtbox from frames 5-23.

Ledge trump bair and dair can be airdodged.

 

[Pixel_]

Ledge trump > Fair is also possible because Charizard can switch directions while double jumping, right? Is that also airdodgeable?

 

[E.Lopez]

Hello, Charizard players! I'm trying to improve with Charizard, and one thing I don't see a lot when watching high level play (at least, from what I remember) is seeing much up-tilt usage. I myself often forget about this move and almost always resort to up-smash instead.

What are some good uses / benefits for up-tilt, instead of going for other options like up-smash?

 

[arbustopachon]

Hello, Charizard players! I'm trying to improve with Charizard, and one thing I don't see a lot when watching high level play (at least, from what I remember) is seeing much up-tilt usage. I myself often forget about this move and almost always resort to up-smash instead.

What are some good uses / benefits for up-tilt, instead of going for other options like up-smash?

U-tilt has less endlag and better vertical range making it better for juggling and contesting dairs. You can link one or two u-tilts into U-smash at low percent on fast fallers. U-tilt also shrinks your hurtbox which might help in some situations.

The problem is u-tilt is kinda thin making usmash an easier move to land. Also U-smash is just godlike in general.

 

[Jayzaroo]

Is there any kind of comprehensive guide to match-ups with Charizard? Like how to approach, style to play and so on for each character. I haven't been able to find anything comprehensive and in-depth that is simultaneously up-to-date wit the latest patches.

 

[Pixel_]

Is there any kind of comprehensive guide to match-ups with Charizard? Like how to approach, style to play and so on for each character. I haven't been able to find anything comprehensive and in-depth that is simultaneously up-to-date wit the latest patches.

It'd be extremely hard for someone to do that by themselves (there's, like, 58 characters in the game or something?), so that's why matchup threads exist. Whether or not it's because Zard mains are rare or because we're all lazy, not many people are contributing so there isn't really a matchup guide out there.

 

[Jayzaroo]

It'd be extremely hard for someone to do that by themselves (there's, like, 58 characters in the game or something?), so that's why matchup threads exist. Whether or not it's because Zard mains are rare or because we're all lazy, not many people are contributing so there isn't really a matchup guide out there.

Fair play to that, in which case, how would I go about contributing to one? Are there any dedicated zard matchup threads already, or as I suspect, would it be better to discuss things here?

What do you think?

 

[Jayzaroo]

Fair play to that, in which case, how would I go about contributing to one? Are there any dedicated zard matchup threads already, or as I suspect, would it be better to discuss things here?

What do you think?

Actually, I'm new to the forum, so I'm just now seeing the various threads on the topic, I will look and contribute there for now.

 

[Charey]

So I was looking into the untechable spinning tumble at 100%, Charizard doesn't get much out of it. The only move that keeps the foe close enough to follow up on is nair but most characters end the spinning animation before they hit the ground which lets them tech anyways and they can jump out if they want to.

Sourspot nair > FB will kill if they do miss the tech though so it might be worth trying even if it's not guaranteed. Plus some players might not think to try to tech if they see the spinning tumble.

is far as I can tell the only character that doesn't leave the spin tumble before hitting the ground, I think it's because of his extreme wight and fall speed combo. So if nair puts Dedede into a spin cycle then you can true combo into Flare Blitz.

 

[arbustopachon]

An other option against D3 would be locking him with u-smash then flare blitzing or f-smashing him.

 

[Pixel_]

Dtilt > flare blitz?

 

[Charey]

Well I did forget about one character while testing earlier, Shield mode Shulk will also still be in the spin when he hits the ground. Although he can survive nair > Flare Blitz but can be hit with nair > f-smash or d-tilt > Flare Blitz.

Dtilt > flare blitz?

D-tilt sends Dedede too far for Flare Blitz to connect at 100%, maybe a stale one that just sent him over 100% might work.

An other option against D3 would be locking him with u-smash then flare blitzing or f-smashing him.

That is definitely the stronger option if you can react to the spin fast enough.

 

[gameplayzero]

Zard's main throw combos are: D-throw> Nair; D-throw > Usmash; B-throw > fair and U-throw > fair.

at what percents are these throw combos good at? Particularly back throw>fair. I'm a somewhat newbie charizard and I keep doing the usual d-throw fair. Is it a Di mix up like in project m and/or does it only connect at specific percent?

 

[arbustopachon]

at what percents are these throw combos good at? Particularly back throw>fair. I'm a somewhat newbie charizard and I keep doing the usual d-throw fair. Is it a Di mix up like in project m and/or does it only connect at specific percent?

B-Throw fair works at early percents on the majority of characters, some can avoid it if they Di away. At mid percents it works provided they Di towards you, you can also get bair if they Di towards you. Generally at low percents you should always go for b-throw fair since it usually sets them up for an edgeguard.
U-throw Fair and d-throw u-smash work at low to mid percents. D-throw u-smash works better on fastfallers and fatties.