Meta The Charizard Metagame Discussion Topic

[Darth Tobito]

After taking a stock, where do you guys reset to while your opponent has invincibility? I usually retreat to the ledge but I know that ends up with Charizard giving up stage control. What do you guys do?

 

[Steeler]

you kind of have to give up stage control, or at least run away for a bit. with customs, against aggressive players i like to hang out kind of under where they spawn, run to one side and then full hop dragon rush to the other end of the stage. doesn't work well against really fast characters tho

 

[MintyBreeze]

Are there any specific highly used characters that Charizard is a good choice against, or at least can manage with? If there is, I imagine it would probably be Mario or maybe Wario.

 

[Steeler]

Nah not Wario. He can run all day from us and is pretty safe on shield. Mario maybe. Luigi was even better for us but he is pretty rare nowadays.

On that note, I feel like the shield buffs were decidedly a nerf for Zard. We still aren't very safe on shield, while more aggressive and mobile characters are even safer on shield now.

 

[Darth Tobito]

In my experience, Zard goes pretty well against Weegee since my friend uses him. Don't let the fireballs bait you into sheild because Zard is combo food even at absurd percents. You'll generally outrange his attacks and Charizard can edge guard Luigi well with Flamethrower, Dair, Fair and Nair. Avoid super laggy moves on the ground at high percents because Luigi will get a free punish with his Up-B.

I put this matchup at even or at worst 55-45 in Luigi's favor. I don't have high level Luigi experience to tell me otherwise.

Are there any specific highly used characters that Charizard is a good choice against, or at least can manage with? If there is, I imagine it would probably be Mario or maybe Wario.

I've had decent results against Little Mac, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Falcon, and Mewtwo. Granted this isn't super high level experience but I figure that Charizard at least can handle them better than Sheik and ZSS.

 

[Steeler]

Imagine if like, you could cancel Rock Smash early by just dropping the rock or something

doesn't even need to do damage when you drop it

just an armor move that lets you tank something and then come back on the ground without having as much commitment

plus haven't you ever rock smashed a dash attack and they go through you so your whole attack whiffs anyway and gets you even more damaged for armoring? yeah

idk, just comparing the move to ryu's focus attack (frame one, cancelable, grants a dash, confirms into anything you want on hit) makes me a bit salty. charizard in general just makes me a bit salty lately...

 

[charizardbro]

Imagine if like, you could cancel Rock Smash early by just dropping the rock or something

doesn't even need to do damage when you drop it

just an armor move that lets you tank something and then come back on the ground without having as much commitment

plus haven't you ever rock smashed a dash attack and they go through you so your whole attack whiffs anyway and gets you even more damaged for armoring? yeah

idk, just comparing the move to ryu's focus attack (frame one, cancelable, grants a dash, confirms into anything you want on hit) makes me a bit salty. charizard in general just makes me a bit salty lately...

Ryu is high tier though. Zard compared to high tiers is pretty much always going to be disappointing.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Ryu is high tier though. Zard compared to high tiers is pretty much always going to be disappointing.

Not anymore, it's not.

Messing around with Charizard last night after downloading the patch and I'm in love. He's been massively buffed and I honestly think he might be a tournament-viable character now. Not solo-viable (though if the Corrinnetta patch in Feburary buffs Charizard even more, then he damn well might become solo-viable at this rate), but definitely viable with a secondary to cover any disadvantageous MU's.

 

[Steeler]

Not anymore, it's not.

Messing around with Charizard last night after downloading the patch and I'm in love. He's been massively buffed and I honestly think he might be a tournament-viable character now. Not solo-viable (though if the Corrinnetta patch in Feburary buffs Charizard even more, then he damn well might become solo-viable at this rate), but definitely viable with a secondary to cover any disadvantageous MU's.

Buffs so far are just dsmash, dash attack, and usmash right?

 

[Charey]

What changed about Up-smash?

 

[Mightyno.M]

It says it was tweaked but I'm honestly not feeling a difference so I guess buff but not so much as for me to use it anymore than I did before

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Up smash is a bit easier for me to hit now if the opponent is behind/in front of me.

 

[Steeler]

Latest possible dash attack (frame 20) is now around -11 on shield (-4 if they shield drop). Not safe by any means but definitely deceptive.

 

[Saltyman]

Does anyone else feel like Charizard is considerably better with the 1.1.3 changes?

Down smash was already amazing, now it just KOs even earlier. Up Smash still doesn't link everytime but is actually usable, and dash attack sets up edgeguards which is exactly what charizard wants Late hit doesn't combo into up air anymore.. but forward air is better in most situations at lower percents anyways

Up Smash has better linking on the sides if anyone is wondering what exactly changed. Before the first hit was a lot easier to DI away from or would just hit people away you pretty much had to be right on top of them for it to link into the second hit

 

[Grizzlpaw]

New Dash attack is a luma killer. It gives comparable horizontal and vertical knockback to flare blitz.

Rosa Matchup just got easier~

 

[charizardbro]

Has anyone here looked into charizard's options out of dthrow if you add in a perfect pivot? I've found some interesting stuff using utilt and bair in training but I have no way of checking if it's escapable when people DI away other than spamming it online. Hopefully someone's already labbed this though.

And on a side note I just noticed fthrow is so op. It kills substantially earlier than Uthrow when you're right at the ledge (not taking into account any potential Bermuda triangle DI). Crazy stuff.

Edit: I tested it on DK with DI away and dthrow -> PP bair was a true combo at 85% and it killed off the side on FD with bad DI. If it works on lighter characters, this could be huge. Turn around bair worked on DI away for a lot longer than I had anticipated as well.

 

[charizardbro]

I know smashboards doesn't like double posting (remove 696 if it comes to it) but I was labbing the other day and something brilliant happened

- 13 seconds

This is done with DI away on down throw and non-immediate DI in after the hit (i.e. good then bad DI). Pardon the potato.

Yes, those are perfect pivots. No, turnaround/RAR back air would not have worked.

I hope I'm not the only one who's a little excited. Zard can style. And not just on heavies.

 

[RadianB]

So we Bottom Tier, do you guys agree? I personally believe that's way too low but without anyone willing to use him in Tournaments he'll probably just remain there.

 

[arbustopachon]

Personally i think we should be a bit higher, like around marth's tier.
But there are weirder things in that tier list like 1111 brawler being higher than 1111 swordfighter and samus being too low so i don't complain.

 

[RadianB]

I think it's safe to say that the 2 new DLC characters have a positive match up against Charizard. Charizard relies on spacing but Corrin out ranges him and Bayonetta can combo him quite a bit because of how floaty and large he is.

 

[arbustopachon]

At least our close cuarter combat is better than bayo's.
Corrin makes me sad tho.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Bayo is one of the few characters we can actually neutral game to death. Because she has none.

 

[Tsutori]

I just played a few matches against my friend's Bayo, and...

I can't say how much of my success was due to matchup; this the first time either of us played Bayo vs. Charizard, so I was able to land a lot of stuff that probably shouldn't work normally, and my friend did learn to react to some of the tricks I was using later. But I learned a few important things, and those are:

1. Flare Blitz will beat out Bayo's Bullet Climax at a far distance. You will armor through the bullets and she won't have enough time to act after the move to avoid Flare Blitz. This doesn't work, though, at shorter distances where the bullets will make you flinch. Just be really careful that she doesn't read your Flare Blitz and use Witch Time instead.

2. Flamethrower. Is too freaking good on the ledge. It also helps a lot in neutral.

3. Dthrow to uair will start working on Bayo around 40%.

4. You do have to be really careful when you're offstage against Bayo. She can intercept you with Bullet Climax pretty easily, even interrupting Flare Blitz if she's close enough, so it's probably better to recover using Fly from below.

Let me know if you guys agree/disagree with any of this!

 

[charizardbro]

I just played a few matches against my friend's Bayo, and...

I can't say how much of my success was due to matchup; this the first time either of us played Bayo vs. Charizard, so I was able to land a lot of stuff that probably shouldn't work normally, and my friend did learn to react to some of the tricks I was using later. But I learned a few important things, and those are:

1. Flare Blitz will beat out Bayo's Bullet Climax at a far distance. You will armor through the bullets and she won't have enough time to act after the move to avoid Flare Blitz. This doesn't work, though, at shorter distances where the bullets will make you flinch. Just be really careful that she doesn't read your Flare Blitz and use Witch Time instead.

2. Flamethrower. Is too freaking good on the ledge. It also helps a lot in neutral.

3. Dthrow to uair will start working on Bayo around 40%.

4. You do have to be really careful when you're offstage against Bayo. She can intercept you with Bullet Climax pretty easily, even interrupting Flare Blitz if she's close enough, so it's probably better to recover using Fly from below.

Let me know if you guys agree/disagree with any of this!

I'm sorry man your friend is just not a very good Bayonetta (to be fair, nobody really is quite yet).

You can armor her bullets at a very specific distance. It will clank if you start FB from too close though. B reverse guns in neutral is a really strong option that she never used.

Flamethrower at the ledge is good if Bayo doesn't know how to recover with Bayo. She can Uspecial twice if she has a second jump. Either your opponent flubbed or forgot that... twice.

I don't think dthrow uair works if she DIs optimally (at any percent).

Bayo edgeguards low recoveries really well with dair which your opponent never used. She can recover afterwards with ease. It also meteors at really low percents.

She has the worst rolls and dodges in the game. Your opponent used them too much.

Your opponent also never used her busted counter.

I also feel like this is a super cherrypicked vid man. He SD'd twice.

Bayo is one of the few characters we can actually neutral game to death. Because she has none.

Holy moly

 

[Tsutori]

I'm sorry man your friend is just not a very good Bayonetta (to be fair, nobody really is quite yet).

You can armor her bullets at a very specific distance. It will clank if you start FB from too close though. B reverse guns in neutral is a really strong option that she never used.

Flamethrower at the ledge is good if Bayo doesn't know how to recover with Bayo. She can Uspecial twice if she has a second jump. Either your opponent flubbed or forgot that... twice.

I don't think dthrow uair works if she DIs optimally (at any percent).

Bayo edgeguards low recoveries really well with dair which your opponent never used. She can recover afterwards with ease. It also meteors at really low percents.

She has the worst rolls and dodges in the game. Your opponent used them too much.

Your opponent also never used her busted counter.

I also feel like this is a super cherrypicked vid man. He SD'd twice.

Thanks for the input. I suspected there were a lot of tools he just wasn't using, which honestly surprised me since I played quite a few matches against his Bayo as Pit, and he beat me almost every single time in that matchup. Not sure why he stopped doing the things he was doing well against my Zard, though in his defense, he did start using Witch Time a lot more in our later matches.

In regards to Bayo's dair, he did use that against me in our second match, but the armor on Fly was able to beat that out.

 

[charizardbro]

Thanks for the input. I suspected there were a lot of tools he just wasn't using, which honestly surprised me since I played quite a few matches against his Bayo as Pit, and he beat me almost every single time in that matchup. Not sure why he stopped doing the things he was doing well against my Zard, though in his defense, he did start using Witch Time a lot more in our later matches.

In regards to Bayo's dair, he did use that against me in our second match, but the armor on Fly was able to beat that out.

Fly armor will beat it but all Bayo needs to do is fthrow you at the ledge to put herself in a position where she can wait it out and then dair you. It also goes through FB. Bayo edguards Zard really well.

 

[Indigo_]

I was wondering whether Rock Hurl (Custom Down-B) is better than Rock Smash. I have heard it leads into some fairly reliable follow-ups. Does that make it better for damage then the original? Is the lightning fast super armor worth the damage trade-off? Also, what matchups does it make the biggest difference in?

 

[-LzR-]

If the opponent is a character with many tight followups and is too safe to reliably fall for a Rock Smash, Hurl is way better. Sheik, Zss, Marios, Ryu and many others, go for Hurl.

 

[Indigo_]

If the opponent is a character with many tight followups and is too safe to reliably fall for a Rock Smash, Hurl is way better. Sheik, Zss, Marios, Ryu and many others, go for Hurl.

Thanks. Sounds like a staple versus some of our hardest match-ups. Any input on the knockback angle and potential for follow-ups?

 

[-LzR-]

The move itself is kinda lame, not much damage and barely any potential for followups. The moves entire purpose is for defense in situations where dodging, shielding or moving away don't help.

 

[RadianB]

I saved some vids showing how Charizard can cheekly gimp linear recoveries:

Skip to 1:38

Skip to 2:05

Charizard is seriously one of the best characters for edge guarding.

 

[DESE]

I saved some vids showing how Charizard can cheekly gimp linear recoveries:

Skip to 1:38

Skip to 2:05

Charizard is seriously one of the best characters for edge guarding.

Nice moves againts Ike:, I like the FowardSmash & FowardB to match up. zero lag landing as well.. pretty smooth. In the match againts falcon I counted you 2 times lag landing while doing double jump + NeutralA. It's good to erradicate lag landing in Charizard.

 

[RadianB]

Nice moves againts Ike:, I like the FowardSmash & FowardB to match up. zero lag landing as well.. pretty smooth. In the match againts falcon I counted you 2 times lag landing while doing double jump + NeutralA. It's good to erradicate lag landing in Charizard.

Thanks, yeah I still haven't got the timing down properly yet on using his Neutral air perfectly but I'm getting there.

 

[Tikku]

Hey!
How useful is Charizard's flamethrower in general and how safe is it on shield?

 

[Charey]

Flamethrower is your major poke/anti camp tool. At max range it is fully safe on shield but at close range they can roll past it if they block it, but most players don't know that and will let you get away with it.

If you are facing someone who knows to roll in you should still be fine with small bursts just don't hold it and be ready to react to a roll.

 

[Chris Landry]

Hey guys, so I haven't seen much about this here so i don't know how many people know about this already, but charizard has a few combos out of his uthrow at low percents after jumping immediately, including a jumping flare blitz around 30-45%

 

[arbustopachon]

Yeah he already had those, back throw to fair is usually better tho since it gives you stage posittion.
U-throw flare blitz can kill if done at the edge, but chances are you will just end up killing yourself.

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-vs-charizard.433974/

The M2 board is looking at Charizard next, we would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this match up.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Huh. I'm from the Mewtwo boards too. I came to say I think that Charizard's patch 1.1.5 buff went a little too unnoticed on this thread. I think he is easily mid tier now if not higher.
On the M2 matchup? Air speed is everything. You have to win the neutral the first time, because it's extremely hard for either character involved to return.

 

[ZephyrZ]

^Most of our rejoicing happened in the patch thread. Unfortunately, our social isn't all that active.
Basically everyone who cares about Charizard agrees that the last patch was downright awesome for us.