• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Big MI Discussion Topic

Xatic

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
1,307
Location
Bay City, Michigan / Rochester, NY
I could be a panelist if people wouldn't mind me.

I'm not the kind of guy who's going to come in and say "well I'm a panelist, who else?" when no one wants me to be one. So with that being said I would just like to put myself out there for consideration.

I've already help seed tournament brackets and pools at the more recent events. My only issue would be that I'm only moderately active. I do tend to miss tournaments here and there.

Again just throwing myself into the "consideration pool"
 

TheMann

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
824
Location
Michigan
Agreed. The main issue with the last panel is that it was biased. Or that was the argument. And honestly it was.

Panelists for the PR should meet the following criteria:

- Their opinions are fair, unbiased, and are given for the sole reason of determing the most accurate PR.

- Has been around the scene for a while and is currently active in attending/throwing tournaments.

-Respected and well known by the community (this doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a top ranking player)

-Is knowledgable about the game and is at least moderately skilled.

With that being said we can put together a fair panel and discuss.
Wow thanks for describing me perfectly. Lol jk

I don't go to enough tourneys anymore and alot of people are very unfamiliar to me that post now. I FEEL SO OLD!!!
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
I think we need to abandon the TrueSkill ranking system that we've been using and go back to old Power Ranking system.Thoughts?
Naturally, let's abandon a provenly successful objective system in favor of a subjective system that hasn't been proven successful (at best; it's far easier to claim it's provenly unsuccessful).

Not that I care what you guys do, or particularly even know about how either the current or the past power rankings have been handled.

Hell, if anything I'd be more likely placed at a top spot in the power rankings cause someone could just think it'd be funny. I just wanted to point out your logicless comment w/ no backing.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
I would like to be considered also as now that I'm back in the scene I fit that criteria.

However I totally agree with L_Cancel as a panelist. I would not mind Xatic being a panelist also. Lain is interested and I'd vote yes as long as he's active.

Any other thoughts?

And lol Mann come to more tournaments D:

And SCOTU what makes your comment any more valid than mine? And this is coming from a retired Melee player. That's kinda funny. And just I didn't post my reasoning behind it doesn't mean its logicless. Lain,Tutu, L_ and other discussed this last night and they agree. Or at least open to the idea of reinstating a PR.
 

L_Cancel

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
2,933
Location
Rockford, MI
I don't propose eliminating the trueskill. I believe the trueskill will get more accurate as time goes on. It's just thrown off by the numerous small tournies which are currently a part of it.

But I also don't think a PR is that bad either. Namely because in large OoS events they use PRs of regions to establish seeding. x__x
 

L_Cancel

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
2,933
Location
Rockford, MI
We keep updating the TS, since it's a data based system. It will also be something that would be considered in the PR when updating.

Also some general comments on MI smash:

Also I'd like to propose that future tournies in MI continue the top 5 payout. I feel like, it encourages people to go to tournies, as people won't feel like Anther/Judge/Lain will always take all the money.

I'm glad to see new TOs emerging and stepping it up. I really want to see the MI community grow and be successful.

After the tourney, a bunch of use went to Hungry Howies and just hung out and ate pizza. I feel like it was just a good bonding experience for the MI community.

Also, new players are stepping it up. Boxxy did amazing this weekend. Tutu and Spartakick are quickly improving, and many players are coming off wifi to finally take part in the offline scene.

I want to see MI get better and for the scene to improve. And want to do my best to help that.

<3 you all.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
I agree Jason. We had some major upsets and a few more players are proving themselves to be rising stars in our state. And so many new faces yesterday! It was awesome. And I love how Michigan is becoming a big community and everyone seems to know and like everyone. I realized I have a lot of friends here that I've met from tournaments. And its great because the new players can come into a friendly but competitive scene. The pros are awesome people that share their knowledge. Everyone is hungering to get better. This is what we need more of. What happened last night needs to keep happening. All of our tournies can be at least as good at Game Yard.


And the pizza party in the Hungry Howie's parking lot was awesome.
 

lain

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
4,278
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Top 5 is a good payout, unless there's <20 people. Then I think it should be top 3.

I like the trueskill ranking thingy, but a normal PR does fine too. I think a good panelist thing would be me, L, and ankoku (if he still cares anymore).

Anyways SMASHFESTIES THIS THURSDAY?!?!
 

Boxxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
1,084
Location
Mich
i would agree completely with lain being a part of the panelist also.

i wanna go to the smashfest omg
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
Sure, take away more workload from me. I can't say that I'd complain if you did.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
And SCOTU what makes your comment any more valid than mine?
Trueskill is a corporately proven system that has not only been applied to many of the top played online games, but is also strongly used in the smash community (AiB ladder uses TrueSkill). Power Rankings do not have this. Furthermore, Trueskill is a system that's fully measurable, and already takes into account things like activity in the scene and difficulty of opponents, all while having the rules laid out in front of the players. In other words, it's entirely up to the players how they're ranked. In contrast, there are no well defined criteria for placing in a Power Ranking. It's up to other people to evaluate how you performed. Furthermore, Power rankings will result in situations like: Player A beats many people that Player B cannot, but Player B beats player A. It's not always clear to subjective qualitative reasoning which of the two are better. A quantitative system has no such problems. Moreover, a quantitative system provides more than a power ranking does. A power ranking provides a list of top X in order with some honorable mentions. A quantitative system provides a ranking of every player, allowing tournaments to be better seeded from the ground up, and giving lower people in the scene something to measure against.


And this is coming from a retired Melee player. That's kinda funny.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. If anything it means that I've been around the scene for a while, and given my involvement with both the Melee and Brawl scene (even if i barely played brawl, it doesn't mean I wasn't heavily involved with the Midwest Brawl scene, mind you). Keep in mind that I was one of the most successful MI brawl TOs, something that requires knowledge of brawl players. Given that and that I was both a founding member of the Brawl Smash Lab and that I was a member of the brawl back room before being in the Melee Back room, It's not really fair to just label me only as a Melee player that knows nothing of brawl (if that's even what your point is; idk, arguments about something rankings are unrelated to being a Melee player).

And just I didn't post my reasoning behind it doesn't mean its logicless.
No, but something without reasoning is intrinsically logicless

Lain,Tutu, L_ and other discussed this last night and they agree. Or at least open to the idea of reinstating a PR.
I'm not against it. I just wanted to make sure you have some **** good arguments before you try to throw out something like an existing trueskill ranking system in favor of something that people normally opt for because it's an easier escape than trueskill (i.e. it seems like it's less work).
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
Ankoku I'm sure we could find someone to take over your TS system if you don't feel like updating it anymore. It is a lot of work.

SCOTU:It's rare I'm this lazy but I just didn't care enough to read your wall of text, sorry.

Holy **** its NoJ lol
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
It's not a lot of work at all. I'm just saying that if you want to abandon it for Power Rankings, then go ahead and tell me to forget about it. : )
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
SCOTU:It's rare I'm this lazy but I just didn't care enough to read your wall of text, sorry.
:( Given that I don't care if you guys trueskill or power rankings, my argument was for 2 purposes:

1) I haven't had a good debate on swf in a while, and you seemed like you might be good at it.
2) To beef up your argument should there be problems with the switch.

I even went and made sure all your text was still formatted correctly between the different quoteboxen so you'd read it :(
 

L_Cancel

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
2,933
Location
Rockford, MI
If it makes you feel any better. I read your entire post, SCOTU. However, I'm supporting the existence of both. So... I have nothing to debate. n__n/ lol
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
If it makes you feel any better. I read your entire post, SCOTU. However, I'm supporting the existence of both. So... I have nothing to debate. n__n/ lol
But that's because L_Cancel's my hero :)

I mean, like, who could be...

uh...

more...

L_Cancel... like...?

yeah, sure. I'll go with that.

hm. I need a new sig.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
2,063
Location
Michigan
NNID
MTInfinity
3DS FC
2363-5671-9607
I don't like AiB's ranking system because you have to play every day or your rating goes to hell. By the time you do play like 150ish games beating someone 200 points higher really does not even give you even 10 points, which in my opinion is utter bullcrap.

Plus you have to play every day to maintain a decent rating and its really not worth it in my opinion, so I really don't like that system.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
SCOTU: I assure you its not me trying to be a **** its just that I'm on my phone's internet and to try to type ALL of that to reply to your debate will take years. We can continue this tomorrow when I'm on my laptop though.


 

Kail

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
1,422
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
What's the point of the ranking system anyway? Only top three-ish matter and I'm pretty positive that's set in stone for melee and brawl.
 

solecalibur

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,330
Location
Cbus
I don't like AiB's ranking system because you have to play every day or your rating goes to hell. By the time you do play like 150ish games beating someone 200 points higher really does not even give you even 10 points, which in my opinion is utter bullcrap.

Plus you have to play every day to maintain a decent rating and its really not worth it in my opinion, so I really don't like that system.
Im 10 - 0 I have a better record then a person with 70 - 10 record .... WTH


and the real reason im in here


...

What are some listings for your next Ann Arbor tounry? Or do you guys normally have tounrys there during the school year?
 

Tewx2

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
819
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Personally I don't like the trueskill system for tournaments because unlike in a ladder type situation, you can't refuse to play someone in a tourny set. Not to mention if any OoS players came in it woul dget pretty messed up. Like if Ally shows up to a tourny he would start with the base amount of points, he powers through everyone and everyone who plays him suffers a dramatic decrease in rating, while the other half of the bracket loses the normal amount they would lose. Also 13 man tournies like VoM have way to much of an impact. Over time I think it will balance out, but in the meantime I think a PR is something we should have.

I think Lain and WTP would make really good panelists
 

L_Cancel

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
2,933
Location
Rockford, MI
If we do create a new PR I think as mentioned before Lain would be good. I do feel like he is really in touch with the community, and has a general idea of where everyone is at.

Despite inactivity recently, I would strongly recommend WTP. He's been a longstanding member of the community, and has always helped seed brackets and stuff correctly.

I also think, Tutu also is pretty in touch with the community and would make a solid panelist. x:
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Trueskill does have several noteable problems when it comes to a single state's ranking system in smash.

@Kail: ranking more than just the top 3 does have a purpose. In order to accurately seed a bracket to maximize the likelihood of a correct top X, you need to properly seed the top Y where Y >= X. Furthermore, while at a given tourney the top 3 or 5 or so only matter for placement (as they're the only ones getting paid), an overall standing that takes into account more than just that small top is beneficial. The bulk of players aren't in the top 5 and don't ever (or at least rarely) place in the money, so that's not why they're playing. They're playing either because they like the competition, or because they want to eventually become a top placer. Having an accurate ranking system outside of just tourney placings benefits such people. As those people are the majority, and the majority of the reason the money players play (someone's gotta fill up the pot), it's not unheard of to try to benefit them.

@gio: you know I'm at the top of that list :p
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
You guys are putting an awful lot of thought into this. Let me put it down all simple and stuff.

1 Judge
2 lain
3 Anther
Pretty obvious.

L, Boxxy, Coco, Flame, possibly Azure and Notra are at a tournament level.

Rest of you aren't. Step it up.

If you lose to me and I'm seeding a bracket then I'm ****ing putting you at bottom seed.
 

Tewx2

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
819
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
You guys are putting an awful lot of thought into this. Let me put it down all simple and stuff.

1 Judge
2 lain
3 Anther
Pretty obvious.

L, Boxxy, Coco, Flame, possibly Azure and Notra are at a tournament level.

Rest of you aren't. Step it up.

If you lose to me and I'm seeding a bracket then I'm ****ing putting you at bottom seed.
I've beaten Coco and Flame, and go even with Notra and L, and have lost to you do I still get bottom seed? </3

I do admit I have to step it up though
 
Top Bottom