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The Best Players.

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safehaven

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
479
I dont think I'm stupid, I think I just understand their styles and the game a lot more than you ^_^

He used to be my 2nd favorite falco. I used to love his playing, but now I just don't like his style. He does too many punishable things that don't have great reward. And with falco you can still be good even if you tend to put yourself in bad situations cause your style can overwhelm the other character.

And again, his creativity and ability to think on his feet saves him and makes him good. But not top 20. Sorry.

Luma I'm sorry you disagree, but calling me stupid is extremely immature.
 

Luma

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
1,642
Location
Berlin - Germany
quic, even people like me or pamaro can beat makenshi

yeah safehaven you prolly understand the game alot more then i do...
even trying to rate some european who never went of out his country for the last 2 years is just bull, accept it
 

P.C. Jona

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,175
definitely not ice.

IB is definitely the best marth right now

if m2k really doesnt want to play anymore

after ib i would say hbk or ice
 

Vegard

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
1,220
Location
Oslo, Norway
1. Mango.
2. Hungrybox.
3. Armada.
4. Amsah.
5. Dr. PP
6. Silent Spectre/Remen/Zgetto/Jman/Zhu/Ice/Axe/Shiz/Darkrain/Lucky/Makenshi.
7. Silent Spectre/Remen/Zgetto/Jman/Zhu/Ice/Axe/Shiz/Darkrain/Lucky/Makenshi.
8. Silent Spectre/Remen/Zgetto/Jman/Zhu/Ice/Axe/Shiz/Darkrain/Lucky/Makenshi.
9. Silent Spectre/Remen/Zgetto/Jman/Zhu/Ice/Axe/Shiz/Darkrain/Lucky/Makenshi.
10. Silent Spectre/Remen/Zgetto/Jman/Zhu/Ice/Axe/Shiz/Darkrain/Lucky/Makenshi.
Something like that, biased/unsure about 6-10.
EDIT:Changed 6/7/8/9/10
Makenshi is really good, but top 10?? that's whaack.



1 Mango (by far)
2 Hbox
3 Armada
4 Amsah
5 M2k


all the other ones are so close, next placings are too hard to judge
 

Quic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
401
Not Makenshi. Definitely Ice.
Reason I put Makenshi in is because he always just sort of sneaks his way into the top rankings, I realised Ice is better, but put him on the top Sheik-after you and M2K-position.
 

PoundSlap

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
293
definitely not ice.

IB is definitely the best marth right now

if m2k really doesnt want to play anymore

after ib i would say hbk or ice
wrong. ice won a set against zgetto. thats nothing IB could do. you only know people from your country when it comes down to the best, right? thats so typical.
 

j3ly

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
2,001
Location
London
actually makenshi left his country for smash no less than 3 months ago. i played him in winners :) he is a strange character and has no loyalty to his country, refused to play in crews. if fuzzyness did that he would be exiled from his own community

isnt strawWHATS the best marth after amsah, and then makenshi?

research b4 u flame fooool.
 

gm jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
1,850
Location
Reading/Cambridge, UK
Hungrybox convincingly beats everyone bar mango. Including Armada. Now, Armada is sick, but how can you say he better when Hbox has proved otherwise?
 

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
Tell that the people who think hungrybox is better than armada.
I have no idea what the set record for Makenshi vs. Zgetto is, so I'm not going to go open my mouth on that, but Hungrybox beat Armada in two sets with Armada not winning one match. That's a pretty definitive result until they both end up at the same tournament again.
 

Nø Ca$h

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,726
Location
Philadelphia PA
hungrybox also won a mm vs armada at apex.

IB is better than ice LOL. ice is mad good though.

strawhat dahean retired..

i still think cactuar is the best player in the world.
 

PoundSlap

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
293
You can win without being better. Its still a game where random
things happen. Armada is smarter and overall the better player.
 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
1. Mango - He won't be number 1 if he loses the next national, johns or not.
2. Hbox - Speaks for itself, an amazing player
3-4 NTSC - Amsah 3, Pal - Armada 3 - Just depends on the version being played imo.
5. M2K - Still super good. Might change soon because people are getting better, but he plays Fox/Marth/Sheik very well so it gives him an advantage over lots of players.
6. Axe - Played him yesterday and I have never seen anything like it. In my prime, DSW was the tech falco. In this day it is Axe. I think he is going to create new standards for the Falco metagame. Axe's tech skill is, IMO, on par with silent wolf and Lovage. Axe is gaining a lot of experience now, so his mind is able to keep up with his hands, or in other words, he backs up his tech skill with smart play. It is... just astounding.
7. Jman - He can beat Armada, but not M2K or Axe, so I can't him place him higher than those two for that reason.
8. PP - Anyone else below him I'm sure he can beat.

After that I'm not sure. A lot of great players are deserving of spots after this but there is a lot of inconsistency among all of them to decidedly give that spot to one person. But among the best players after these I would argue for Tope, Wobbles, ColBol, SS, Shroomed, Lovage, Zhu, Lucky, Hugs, Hax, Darkrain, Eggm, and probably a few more great regional players that I am unaware of.
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
1,239
Location
Arizona
PoundSlap I like that you say Armada is the best when even Armada himself has put a list of players and has Mango and Hbox above him.

Or do you just not pay attention to that?

Anyways, PEE PEE =D
 

j3ly

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
2,001
Location
London
i was told yesterday cactuar can beat ur regions best player with nothing but wd back usmash
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
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1,239
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Arizona
1. Mango - He won't be number 1 if he loses the next national, johns or not.
2. Hbox - Speaks for itself, an amazing player
3-4 NTSC - Amsah 3, Pal - Armada 3 - Just depends on the version being played imo.
5. M2K - Still super good. Might change soon because people are getting better, but he plays Fox/Marth/Sheik very well so it gives him an advantage over lots of players.
6. Axe - Played him yesterday and I have never seen anything like it. In my prime, DSW was the tech falco. In this day it is Axe. I think he is going to create new standards for the Falco metagame. Axe's tech skill is, IMO, on par with silent wolf and Lovage. Axe is gaining a lot of experience now, so his mind is able to keep up with his hands, or in other words, he backs up his tech skill with smart play. It is... just astounding.
7. Jman - He can beat Armada, but not M2K or Axe, so I can't him place him higher than those two for that reason.
8. PP - Anyone else below him I'm sure he can beat.

After that I'm not sure. A lot of great players are deserving of spots after this but there is a lot of inconsistency among all of them to decidedly give that spot to one person. But among the best players after these I would argue for Tope, Wobbles, ColBol, SS, Shroomed, Lovage, Zhu, Lucky, Hugs, Hax, Darkrain, Eggm, and probably a few more great regional players that I am unaware of.
PP is definitely 6th =D
 

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
You can win without being better. Its still a game where random
things happen. Armada is smarter and overall the better player.
Congratulations good sir, you have just performed the most insane logical hoop jumping to justify a point that I have ever seen in my life. I commend you and leave you with this thunderous applause. You have most assuredly earned it.

 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
@ forward

i think pp is better then jman and axe
He lost to Jman at Apex and Axe at Pound 4? I think it was pound 4. I'm not sure that he has done anything remarkable against the players in the top 5 that should outweigh his loses to those two.
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
1,239
Location
Arizona
He lost to Jman at Apex and Axe at Pound 4? I think it was pound 4. I'm not sure that he has done anything remarkable against the players in the top 5 that should outweigh his loses to those two.
After losing to Jman he played him in a MM later and 3-0ed him and also 3-1ed Lucky in a MM at Apex.

Came a hell of a lot closer to beating Armada than Axe did too. Also, saying that Axe beat him at Pound when most acknowledge that PP started getting RIDICULOUS around March/HERB3 and forward is kinda...eh. The matches were hella close too and Axe said PP ***** him in dittos before that and he got lucky....

Also PP is the only person since Pound 4 to beat Hungrybox besides Mango. I think that weighs REALLY heavily.
 

Nø Ca$h

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,726
Location
Philadelphia PA
cactuar is a ****ing genius... and hes MAAD technical too. when he trys he can beat mango. but he doesnt care about games anymore and got mad drunk at apex because it was his bday.
 

j3ly

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
2,001
Location
London
can i be cool and copy the americans by saying mad alot?

my input so i dont get INFRACTED (lol caps spellcheck) by jungle fingers -

1 mango
2 hbox
3 armada
4 amsah
5 m2k

as we said yesterday/early thismorning, the undisputed top 5
 

Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
2,867
Location
Amsterdam, Holland
definitely not ice.
IB is definitely the best marth right now
Guess I misread the post I was quoting.

I simply meant that Ice is one of the better Marths out there and that he should be mentioned before Makenshi (as much as I love the guy), not that he's the best thing out there after M2k (though he might well be).
 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
After losing to Jman he played him in a MM later and 3-0ed him and also 3-1ed Lucky in a MM at Apex.

Came a hell of a lot closer to beating Armada than Axe did too. Also, saying that Axe beat him at Pound when most acknowledge that PP started getting RIDICULOUS around March/HERB3 and forward is kinda...eh. The matches were hella close too and Axe said PP ***** him in dittos before that and he got lucky....

Also PP is the only person since Pound 4 to beat Hungrybox besides Mango. I think that weighs REALLY heavily.
Your main points are: Jman MM, set with Armada, PP wasn't as good at Pound 4, something Axe said, beat Hbox. I will address each one individually and explain why it does not warrant that he should be 6th, and also explain the significance of placing Axe at 6th.

Jman MM - I can see this as evidence to putting him above Jman, but not above Axe. Axe has beaten Jman in two tournaments now, so any credit you give to PP for that victory must also be given to Axe.

Set with Armada: It may have been close but ultimately a win is a win. Any point that is made beyond the objective results and fact that they both lost to Armada is a subjective point. People analyze things differently, and for one player to analyze the closeness of matches is no better than another player's analysis. If the two disagree on their analysis there is no reason that one's should outweigh the other.

PP wasn't as good at Pound 4: Once again, this is a subjective statement that carries no real weight. One could say that PP has gotten much better since then, but one can also say that Axe has gotten much better since then, that Axe has improved more than PP has since then, that Axe has improved more lately than PP has, but none of these points can be proven beyond a person's own judgement. And once again, I point out that one person's opinion is no better than another persons.

Something Axe said: We don't know why Axe said what he did. It could have been out of modesty and down playing his ego, to show respect for PP, or other reasons. When others analyze his words one can only make assumptions as to the meanings, and once again, I point to the fact that one person's assumptions are no better than another's.

PP's win against Hbox: This is reasonable evidence to give PP the 6th spot. However, if it is decided that this weighs heavy enough to give PP the 6th spot, it begs the question "why does it not weigh enough to give him the number three spot?" If PP can be ranked above Axe, someone who he has lost to, for beating someone higher than him, than PP should also be ranked higher than anyone else between Hbox and PP, which in my case is Armada, Amsah, M2K, Axe, and Jman. Each of these players have lost to Hbox, and PP has beaten Hbox, so using the logic that his win should weigh in heavily PP should be ranked 3rd.
I did not weigh it this heavily because, as far as I know, PP beat Hbox in one tournament and his since then never beaten him. If PP won consistently I would reconsider, but, my understanding is that it is not consistent and therefor I do not weigh it in heavily.

To conclude, everyone's list will include bias. If it didn't, then everyone's list would be exactly the same because each person would be using the same formula and producing the same results. Since this is not the case it must mean that bias exists, and it is inevitable. With that said, I think it is important that there be fair representation of bias. So far, I have seen a lot of bias for PP. I'm not trying to discredit PP, I think he is an amazing player. What I am trying to do is provide bias for Axe, another amazing player, because I think he is being under represented.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
wrong. ice won a set against zgetto. thats nothing IB could do. you only know people from your country when it comes down to the best, right? thats so typical.
Wait, so Ice is better because he beat Zgetto, but Hungrybox isn't when he beat Armada?

Also I'd lean on IB being a bit better, but Ice is one of the players we really need to see in North America. He's awesome.

Mango's Puff
Mango's Fox
Mango's Falco
Mango's Falcon
Hbox
Armada
M2k
Scorpion Master
Mango's everything else

Exact order *****s
lol, Armada ***** Mango's Falco at Genesis. I believe Armada is the only person to have 3-stocked Mango (GF 2.1).

1. Mango - He won't be number 1 if he loses the next national, johns or not.
This.

2. Hbox - Speaks for itself, an amazing player
3-4 NTSC - Amsah 3, Pal - Armada 3 - Just depends on the version being played imo.
5. M2K - Still super good. Might change soon because people are getting better, but he plays Fox/Marth/Sheik very well so it gives him an advantage over lots of players.
And all this.

6. Axe - Played him yesterday and I have never seen anything like it. In my prime, DSW was the tech falco. In this day it is Axe. I think he is going to create new standards for the Falco metagame. Axe's tech skill is, IMO, on par with silent wolf and Lovage. Axe is gaining a lot of experience now, so his mind is able to keep up with his hands, or in other words, he backs up his tech skill with smart play. It is... just astounding.
I think another solid placing at a national would confirm Axe as a top player (as in nearing Top 5). And I definitely think he can do it.

7. Jman - He can beat Armada, but not M2K or Axe, so I can't him place him higher than those two for that reason.
Jman and Armada played at No Johns before Apex and Jman lost. He's probably has the best chance to as Fox though (except maybe M2K or Mango).

8. PP - Anyone else below him I'm sure he can beat.

After that I'm not sure. A lot of great players are deserving of spots after this but there is a lot of inconsistency among all of them to decidedly give that spot to one person. But among the best players after these I would argue for Tope, Wobbles, ColBol, SS, Shroomed, Lovage, Zhu, Lucky, Hugs, Hax, Darkrain, Eggm, and probably a few more great regional players that I am unaware of.
This.

Also PP is the only person since Pound 4 to beat Hungrybox besides Mango. I think that weighs REALLY heavily.
M2K beat Hungrybox recently.

1 mango
2 hbox
3 armada
4 amsah
5 m2k
This.
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
Jman and Armada played at Tunes before Apex and Jman lost. He's probably has the best chance to as Fox though (except maybe M2K or Mango).
Actually Eggm did a lot better than Jman as fox vs Armada at that tourney. He took Armada to last game last stock.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
Your main points are: Jman MM, set with Armada, PP wasn't as good at Pound 4, something Axe said, beat Hbox. I will address each one individually and explain why it does not warrant that he should be 6th, and also explain the significance of placing Axe at 6th.

Jman MM - I can see this as evidence to putting him above Jman, but not above Axe. Axe has beaten Jman in two tournaments now, so any credit you give to PP for that victory must also be given to Axe.

Set with Armada: It may have been close but ultimately a win is a win. Any point that is made beyond the objective results and fact that they both lost to Armada is a subjective point. People analyze things differently, and for one player to analyze the closeness of matches is no better than another player's analysis. If the two disagree on their analysis there is no reason that one's should outweigh the other.

PP wasn't as good at Pound 4: Once again, this is a subjective statement that carries no real weight. One could say that PP has gotten much better since then, but one can also say that Axe has gotten much better since then, that Axe has improved more than PP has since then, that Axe has improved more lately than PP has, but none of these points can be proven beyond a person's own judgement. And once again, I point out that one person's opinion is no better than another persons.

Something Axe said: We don't know why Axe said what he did. It could have been out of modesty and down playing his ego, to show respect for PP, or other reasons. When others analyze his words one can only make assumptions as to the meanings, and once again, I point to the fact that one person's assumptions are no better than another's.

PP's win against Hbox: This is reasonable evidence to give PP the 6th spot. However, if it is decided that this weighs heavy enough to give PP the 6th spot, it begs the question "why does it not weigh enough to give him the number three spot?" If PP can be ranked above Axe, someone who he has lost to, for beating someone higher than him, than PP should also be ranked higher than anyone else between Hbox and PP, which in my case is Armada, Amsah, M2K, Axe, and Jman. Each of these players have lost to Hbox, and PP has beaten Hbox, so using the logic that his win should weigh in heavily PP should be ranked 3rd.
I did not weigh it this heavily because, as far as I know, PP beat Hbox in one tournament and his since then never beaten him. If PP won consistently I would reconsider, but, my understanding is that it is not consistent and therefor I do not weigh it in heavily.

To conclude, everyone's list will include bias. If it didn't, then everyone's list would be exactly the same because each person would be using the same formula and producing the same results. Since this is not the case it must mean that bias exists, and it is inevitable. With that said, I think it is important that there be fair representation of bias. So far, I have seen a lot of bias for PP. I'm not trying to discredit PP, I think he is an amazing player. What I am trying to do is provide bias for Axe, another amazing player, because I think he is being under represented.
Agrees HEAVILY with Forward... Has not submitted my thougts/ideas on this subject as a request of Axe's..

and as Axe's friend... I did not... Axe simply wants to keep playing, keep getting better.. and eventually be one of the best players in the world...and of course keep the community and stuff... He's really simple minded... just with a major goal, and I know he'll get it one day. :)
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
1,239
Location
Arizona
PP wasn't as good at Pound 4: Once again, this is a subjective statement that carries no real weight. One could say that PP has gotten much better since then, but one can also say that Axe has gotten much better since then, that Axe has improved more than PP has since then, that Axe has improved more lately than PP has, but none of these points can be proven beyond a person's own judgement. And once again, I point out that one person's opinion is no better than another persons.
Yeah it was just HERB3 where PP beat Hbox.

HUNGRYBOX, CARE TO EXPLAIN CEO? :p

And well a lot of it is just speculation really until things do happen. Amsah hasn't come back since PP has improved. Axe hasn't fought PP since he improved. Lucky hasn't played him in tournament either not to mention that MM I already said.

Also the reason I'm only quoting that part is to say stuff about it.

Look at Axe's bracket at Apex, ALL space animals literally. Who he beat was still definitely impressive but how do we know there aren't other people who can still beat Axe? He's yet to beat Linguini, Wobbles might still be able to beat him, Sheik players such as Tope might be able to beat him.

And either way PP beating Hbox doesn't have to give proof for PP being above everyone else between Hbox and PP because that's not even what I said. All it has to do is weigh enough for something that other players who you put above him that we disagree about can or cannot do. Jman got 6-0ed by Hbox last they played and Axe has never played him but I'll let you speculate that one for yourself.

EDIT: @ t3h Icy "M2K beat Hungrybox recently."

Yes but that was only Winners Finals and Hbox came back and won the whole thing beating M2K back. PP WON Herb3. 3-1 WF, 3-1 GF
 

a13c

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
67
I really liked this thread, and it got closed because of some Euro Troll or something.

Keep comments respectful on both sides, guys.






Who do people think are the top 7 players worldwide in order?
idea stealer
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
EDIT: @ t3h Icy "M2K beat Hungrybox recently."

Yes but that was only Winners Finals and Hbox came back and won the whole thing beating M2K back. PP WON Herb3. 3-1 WF, 3-1 GF
IIRC, M2K forfeited GF2 (after losing GF1) since he wanted to focus on Brawl. That said, he did lose.

Also Axe does seem to have trouble with Linguini:

Genesis: Lost to Raistlin, Lost to Linguini
Pound 4: Lost to Mango, Lost to Linguini

There's a ton of match-ups that I'm kinda skeptical about. Axe does have Falco to cover Sheiks, but he seems to have a problem with Ganon, or at least Linguini's Ganon. I'd also like to see him against Hungrybox or Darc.

I think he's fine vs Falcon though; he beat SS.
 
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