The Best Character Under Perfect Conditions

[XienZo]

It's the same reason any other random projectile camping can't work: Perfect powershielding. Replace "powershielding" with spotdodging or your fastest attack, since PSing doesn't stop Pikmin latching. Unfortunately, we lack frame data for Olimar's attacks, but I can only assume the Pikmin Toss is too laggy for Olimar to punish a well-placed spot dodge or fast attack used to knock away the Pikmin. Even if he could, Olimar isn't fast enough to corner most opponents into the circumstance and long-range opponents (Marth, etc.) may well be able to punish the Pikmin Toss itself.

Spot dodging takes 22 frames, definitely enough time for a punish. Pikmin toss has negligble lag after the pikmin is thrown.

Why need for corner? You start out the match too far for melee but the perfect length for camping. And after all, you have to come to us, not the other way around.

If Marth is close enough to punish, we either walk away, or we grab.

Pikmin toss has a pretty high rate of fire.

 

[Mr.E]

Definitely? You misunderestimate. A frame-perfect opponent would be able to spot dodge in such a manner that his spot dodge is just ending as the final hitboxes of the flying Pikmin are passing through their hurtbox. (i.e. Spot dodge as soon as possible to be the least vulnerable during the ending lag.) We seem to lack frame data regarding Olimar's Pikmin Toss but odds are he won't be cracking this defense. (How fast can he throw Pikmin consecutively, twice per second or so? Probably not faster than one can spot dodge them, and even if so not fast enough to punish them for it.) Even assuming he could punish a spotdodge, to be close enough to do so makes him close enough to be punished during the Toss itself. (Olimar loses.) He's protected by using his full throwing range but is then unable to punish a dodgy opponent. Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge Olimar's Pikmin attacks being out-prioritized by absolutely any attack; the opponent doesn't have to spot dodge a Pikmin Toss at all, they could cancel it out with a quicker attack if one is available.

Even if we assume Pikmin Toss is some ultimate victory for Olimar against every other character, ROB perfectly counters it with Robo Laser. ;/ Game over.

No, nobody has to come to Olimar. This is perfect play. If Olimar does indeed have perfect defense in this per-frame environment, the only recourse for his opponents is to... never approach him. Since they can never successfully attack him, their only choice is to stay away and force a 0%-0% draw. (Any approach would lead to Olimar countering with superior defense, causing some damage, and winning.) Thus, Olimar will have to approach if he wishes to actually cause damage and win. The question then becomes whether everyone else has perfect defense against Olimar and the answer is likely YES. (At the least, anyone faster than Olimar can avoid him simply by running away.) Therefore, Olimar will also avoid approaching and every match will end in a draw.

Olimar's grab is of no concern for opponents, since the opponent suffers from no grab stun while being reigned in. A frame-perfect opponent would simply throw out their fastest attack while the Pikmin reels them in, damaging Olimar and cancelling out the grab. Olimar can only hope to shield-grab at a relatively short range, like most characters with regular grabs.

 

[Samuelson]

I think Marth would be pretty amazing since he would be able tip with every attack right?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

There is a lot of discussion here that a person with the ability to grab would win this. i.e. olimar and IC. But as long as we are under perfect conditions couldn't link/toon link stop those grabbers by perfectly timing a bomb to explode as they get grabbed. And if it is link that has the Faux SA then he'd be set up perfectly for an attack out of it? Plus he is one of the best campers anyway, maybe better than olimar.

holy ****, you're right. ****. that messes things up..because whether that bomb damages you is based on...*drumroll* controller port =(

 

[XienZo]

Definitely? You misunderestimate. A frame-perfect opponent would be able to spot dodge in such a manner that his spot dodge is just ending as the final hitboxes of the flying Pikmin are passing through their hurtbox. (i.e. Spot dodge as soon as possible to be the least vulnerable during the ending lag.) We seem to lack frame data regarding Olimar's Pikmin Toss but odds are he won't be cracking this defense. (How fast can he throw Pikmin consecutively, twice per second or so? Probably not faster than one can spot dodge them, and even if so not fast enough to punish them for it.) Even assuming he could punish a spotdodge, to be close enough to do so makes him close enough to be punished during the Toss itself. (Olimar loses.) He's protected by using his full throwing range but is then unable to punish a dodgy opponent. Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge Olimar's Pikmin attacks being out-prioritized by absolutely any attack; the opponent doesn't have to spot dodge a Pikmin Toss at all, they could cancel it out with a quicker attack if one is available.

Even if we assume Pikmin Toss is some ultimate victory for Olimar against every other character, ROB perfectly counters it with Robo Laser. ;/ Game over.

No, nobody has to come to Olimar. This is perfect play. If Olimar does indeed have perfect defense in this per-frame environment, the only recourse for his opponents is to... never approach him. Since they can never successfully attack him, their only choice is to stay away and force a 0%-0% draw. (Any approach would lead to Olimar countering with superior defense, causing some damage, and winning.) Thus, Olimar will have to approach if he wishes to actually cause damage and win. The question then becomes whether everyone else has perfect defense against Olimar and the answer is likely YES. (At the least, anyone faster than Olimar can avoid him simply by running away.) Therefore, Olimar will also avoid approaching and every match will end in a draw.

Olimar's grab is of no concern for opponents, since the opponent suffers from no grab stun while being reigned in. A frame-perfect opponent would simply throw out their fastest attack while the Pikmin reels them in, damaging Olimar and cancelling out the grab. Olimar can only hope to shield-grab at a relatively short range, like most characters with regular grabs.

Yes, ROB and Peach are evil. They will still be counters for Olimar in perfect play. Along with Wolf. Maybe.

You don't have much of a window to change up spot-dodge timing though, the pikmin are a tad faster than a (fully charged) aura sphere, which moves slow enough and to hit spot-dodging opponents. Now, Pikmin are smaller, but you can't change the timing up much.

Also, the lag on pikmin throw is nearly all start-up, so Olimar can go off to punish immediatly after the throw.

And you're going to have to come eventually; you'll get thrown a yellow>purple>white, which would all come in contact with the opponent nearly at the same time from different angles, so you can't spotdodge all 3 and the purple has insanely high priority since it just eats attacks and continues.

ROB is evil.

The grab interupt thing could be an issue though, but Olimar should still do fine even with it limited.

 

[Binx]

Ice Climbers would win easily, because they would be 2 frame perfect characters, not one. also ICs could get through wolfs shine, if there was ever a situation where wolf had to use it to block one climber, the other climber would grab him and get a throw.

VS Olimar Ice climbers would have popo perfect shield and have nana throw an ice block, this would force Olimar to move in some way eventually running out of space, best case scenario is a tie for olimar, but I am sure there is some way Ice Climbers would hit him, nanapult blizzards, blocks, and solo squalls that wouldn't count towards damage even if she was hit or killed.

 

[cj.Shark]

pits arrows would be perfect and uncounterable..seriously if they shield. loop it back while moving and attack/shielding, if they are playing the camp war. loop it then shoot another one thats TWO arrows in play. now imagine 4 arrows. under perfect conditions pit can control 4 arrows from anywhere on the map WHILE being able to attack shield/do anything as a fallowup. under perfect conditions pit can camp under the map while controlling arrows that go above while hes stalling under the map. now.. thated be friggen scary.
also ic's could never get a grab off pit with an arrow in play because an arrow would interrupt nana just as pop is throwing or vice versa. or two arrows would hit both at the exact time.
yeah i am totally biased but so what? pits arrows are good

 

[cj.Shark]

also finally because pits arrows are different as they can be acted upon them on their own it is possible to frame trap someone inwhich they must perfect shield 4 seperate arrows in which pit could easily grab out of. so frametrap = damage. even if ur wolf. hah sucks to be wolf.

 

[Kitamerby]

pits arrows would be perfect and uncounterable..seriously if they shield. loop it back while moving and attack/shielding, if they are playing the camp war. loop it then shoot another one thats TWO arrows in play. now imagine 4 arrows. under perfect conditions pit can control 4 arrows from anywhere on the map WHILE being able to attack shield/do anything as a fallowup. under perfect conditions pit can camp under the map while controlling arrows that go above while hes stalling under the map. now.. thated be friggen scary.
also ic's could never get a grab off pit with an arrow in play because an arrow would interrupt nana just as pop is throwing or vice versa. or two arrows would hit both at the exact time.
yeah i am totally biased but so what? pits arrows are good

Powershield, jab, fair, knock Pit out of his up B. Problem solved.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Powershield, jab, fair, knock Pit out of his up B. Problem solved.

You powershield one arrow, but then there's another arrow comming at you. And another, and another, and then Pit grabs you while you're powershielding.

lol.

 

[kr3wman]

You powershield one arrow, but then there's another arrow comming at you. And another, and another, and then Pit grabs you while you're powershielding.

lol.

Frame perfect side-step -> Punish the Pit.

 

[Ville]

Under perfect conditions nobody could win any match actually :/

 

[Binx]

No because pit would still be able to grab you, the problem is, is that pits first arrows have startup, so I don't think he would be able to frame trap before some characters could start getting closer to him, but that sort of makes sense, if the arrows are more controllable than I think they are then yeah, pit would lay down the wreck, I didn't even think about that, all he has to do is hit you with 1 arrow which could be possible maybe or 1 grab and then ledge camp and it's done like dinner.

However, lets say that pit shoots the arrows and then it takes to long to loop them and ice climbers does a perfect pivot at close range, jabbing and then reacting with nana, that could be a stock off of pit, or at least more damage than the arrows each time, Ice Climbers are the only character who could frame trap with normal attacks because perfectly controlled they could desynch jabs, blizzards, tilts, smashes, grabs, anything timed in such a way that you couldn't block or dodge for very long before you would inevitably be hit.

 

[DeactoVater]

But if the opponent plays perfectly, the IC's may NEVER get a grab in.

This post regards the Ice Climbers

Every says that Ice Climbers getting 1 grab is the death penalty.

But in really it is pretty hard for an IC to chain grab u to deadly numbers.

Yes, if u are already at high numbers and they grab u it can be pretty much 100% chance of death.

I agree with this guy.
You can manipulate the match so IC can not only not grab u they can barely touch u.

 

[cj.Shark]

IC is better at this perfect thing because simply their desync is much better. easier is not a point because this is under PERFECT conditions. one would assume that pit would always have 1 arrow out to hit popo and nana if he gets grabbed but after that then what? popo and nana repeat. its that simple repeat until pit has no more arrows in play.

 

[cj.Shark]

Frame perfect side-step -> Punish the Pit.

btw sidestep is not a viable option because it leaves yourself open before and afterward. so if u sidestep u will get punished in perfect play. the onlything that really matters in PP is spacing and powershield. powershield itself makes almost every attack except for grabs viable(cept pikmin throw) so the only way to win is with a frame trap (ic or pit) there is no real solution to both theese combined to make what is PP

 

[XienZo]

pits arrows would be perfect and uncounterable..seriously if they shield. loop it back while moving and attack/shielding, if they are playing the camp war. loop it then shoot another one thats TWO arrows in play. now imagine 4 arrows. under perfect conditions pit can control 4 arrows from anywhere on the map WHILE being able to attack shield/do anything as a fallowup. under perfect conditions pit can camp under the map while controlling arrows that go above while hes stalling under the map. now.. thated be friggen scary.
also ic's could never get a grab off pit with an arrow in play because an arrow would interrupt nana just as pop is throwing or vice versa. or two arrows would hit both at the exact time.
yeah i am totally biased but so what? pits arrows are good

Chuck pikmin. They'll block the arrows and will damage you faster if you loop the arrows.

if you're below the stage we can Fsmash you to your doom.

 

[kr3wman]

btw sidestep is not a viable option because it leaves yourself open before and afterward. so if u sidestep u will get punished in perfect play. the onlything that really matters in PP is spacing and powershield. powershield itself makes almost every attack except for grabs viable(cept pikmin throw) so the only way to win is with a frame trap (ic or pit) there is no real solution to both theese combined to make what is PP

I was refering to your 'Arrow stopping the chaingrab' situation.

Basically, after the frame-perfect side step Popo would grab you. Nana would do a jumping blizzard to delay the break, gets hits by the arrow instead of Popo, Popo throws, Nana continues with the chaingrab.

 

[TheEliteSmasher]

Captain Falcon

 

[akkon888]

Any character can be equally as awesome under perfect conditions. What I don't get is why you ask this. You will never get perfect conditions unless you are training on STOP characters. What I think you should be asking is, "What person is the most susceptible to damage" That is a real question that truly has an answer, it is based on the growth of knockback and spike speeds, and you can find them on Ike and a few other boards. So I am saying that the question is pointless.

 

[XienZo]

Any character can be equally as awesome under perfect conditions. What I don't get is why you ask this. You will never get perfect conditions unless you are training on STOP characters. What I think you should be asking is, "What person is the most susceptible to damage" That is a real question that truly has an answer, it is based on the growth of knockback and spike speeds, and you can find them on Ike and a few other boards. So I am saying that the question is pointless.

A guy was interested about Olimar's perfet camping, and made this thread.


Except Olimar's perfect camping doesn't actually need perfect timing, but we're really bored, so we go on to argue about stuff that doesn't matter anyway. Which is what the entire tactical discussion is about anyway.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Chuck pikmin. They'll block the arrows and will damage you faster if you loop the arrows.

if you're below the stage we can Fsmash you to your doom.

Pit can jump while controlling the arrows. Since it's perfect play he could also take 3 frames away from controlling the arrow and just powershield, then continue controlling the arrow.

And thanks to the c-stick he can also attack in conjuction with controlling his arrow, as well as wingdash (while controlling the arrow) to cancel out projectiles and stop approaches (thanks to the wind push effect).

 

[XienZo]

Pit can jump while controlling the arrows. Since it's perfect play he could also take 3 frames away from controlling the arrow and just powershield, then continue controlling the arrow.

And thanks to the c-stick he can also attack in conjuction with controlling his arrow, as well as wingdash (while controlling the arrow) to cancel out projectiles and stop approaches (thanks to the wind push effect).

No one has yet to explain how to powershield Pikmin.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No one has yet to explain how to powershield Pikmin.

My bad, I forgot Pikmin couldn't be powershielded.

Well, he could jump over them and use the arrow to cover himself.

Does Wingdashing eliminate Pikmin?

 

[XienZo]

My bad, I forgot Pikmin couldn't be powershielded.

Well, he could jump over them and use the arrow to cover himself.

Does Wingdashing eliminate Pikmin?

I believe it'd push them away initially but they will continue on with the initial momentum immediatly after. It won't cancel them though. That would be cruel.

If you jump, you have landing lag, no? And while we me might not be able to dash in, we can throw pikmin to where you'd eventually land, so one latches on eventually.

 

[BentoBox]

Shark, seriously, in what kind of perfect scenario do you see anyone letting Pit whip out 4 arrows and controlling them at wish? And since when is an arrow spamming Pit hard to approach? With all that looping nonsense you seem to forget that it takes time for an arrow to loop around before hitting ground.

 

[XienZo]

Shark, seriously, in what kind of perfect scenario do you see anyone letting Pit whip out 4 arrows and controlling them at wish?

We're basically talking about pros with CPU reflexes.

So if you charged in, every attack of yours would get Powershielded, and you'd be punished with single frame accuracy.

Yeah, its never going to happen, but its fun to talk about and occasinally we need this for the MK debate.

 

[cj.Shark]

a perfect scenario where the opponent is 20 frames away. and the apporach is impossible because pit will be able to control his arrows under perefct conditions while powershield/doing all else. finally xien i have a question for you
if every attack except for grabs can be powershielded and spacing perfectly will result in a (he who tries to grab first will always miss and get punished) scenario. then how will olimar actually kill his opponents? unless u have a desynced character it will be impossible to land thatfinishing blow think about it. pikmin toss might go through shields but the purple one wont meaning you will have a 999 opponent and no way of killing him because he will never mess up a powershield/get grabbed. IC on the other hand can actually frame trap. chars likediddy and pit can too.

 

[XienZo]

a perfect scenario where the opponent is 20 frames away. and the apporach is impossible because pit will be able to control his arrows under perefct conditions while powershield/doing all else. finally xien i have a question for you
if every attack except for grabs can be powershielded and spacing perfectly will result in a (he who tries to grab first will always miss and get punished) scenario. then how will olimar actually kill his opponents? unless u have a desynced character it will be impossible to land thatfinishing blow think about it. pikmin toss might go through shields but the purple one wont meaning you will have a 999 opponent and no way of killing him because he will never mess up a powershield/get grabbed. IC on the other hand can actually frame trap. chars likediddy and pit can too.

Run out the clock?

JK, Olimar can set up traps too like throw a purple pikmin and then grab when the purple pikmin would also hit them, so if you PS, you get grabbed, and if you jump, you get hit, and if you spotdodge, you get grabbed by the pikmin on its way back.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Run out the clock?

JK, Olimar can set up traps too like throw a purple pikmin and then grab when the purple pikmin would also hit them, so if you PS, you get grabbed, and if you jump, you get hit, and if you spotdodge, you get grabbed by the pikmin on its way back.

And if you roll in response to the grab attempt?

 

[cj.Shark]

if purples can hit at the exact frame the grab latches then we have a winner. if itsd only a few frames away then no win
seriously frame lock > all in perfect play

 

[XienZo]

And if you roll in response to the grab attempt?

Hmmm... thats an issue, but at least for some characters, Olimar's grab outranges their roll lol...

but those are like Yoshi and Samus....

 

[FunkMaster]

metaknight.

he can just turn invisible and stall forever unless you can hit him before he can disappear somehow

so now the match turns into infinite sudden death probably

so metaknight would have to be banned in this case hahaha

oh and if an olimar is up metaknight would run away then force a draw of course.

by turning invulnerable

 

[XienZo]

metaknight.

he can just turn invisible and stall forever unless you can hit him before he can disappear somehow

so now the match turns into infinite sudden death probably

so metaknight would have to be banned in this case hahaha

oh and if an olimar is up metaknight would run away then force a draw of course.

by turning invulnerable

Just because we became frame-haxxors doesn't mean the rules just disappeared.

 

[brinboy789]

metaknight.

he can just turn invisible and stall forever unless you can hit him before he can disappear somehow

so now the match turns into infinite sudden death probably

so metaknight would have to be banned in this case hahaha

oh and if an olimar is up metaknight would run away then force a draw of course.

by turning invulnerable

wrong. MK has invincibllity frames, but wolf does too (reflector). MK's ending with the IDC has more lag then wolf's ending with reflector, so wolf has more options. but with MK or wolf, its either stalemate or MK/wolf wins.

 

[XienZo]

wrong. MK has invincibllity frames, but wolf does too (reflector). MK's ending with the IDC has more lag then wolf's ending with reflector, so wolf has more options. but with MK or wolf, its either stalemate or MK/wolf wins.

MK can cancel his on the ledge, can't he?

 

[brinboy789]

MK can cancel his on the ledge, can't he?

well now thati think of it, yea, but what can he do on the ledge? go back to IDCing? wolf reflector has mroe options out of it

 

[XienZo]

well now thati think of it, yea, but what can he do on the ledge? go back to IDCing? wolf reflector has mroe options out of it

Well, the point is, you get 1 damage up, and IDC forever with no follow-ups needed cause you'd run out the timer.

In a scenario with no time limit and infinite stamina of players, IDC wouldn't do ANYTHING.

Wolf's can counter, but why wouldn't you just side-step and attack, or what if their attack comes out faster, like ZSS's or squirtle's?

 

[Jibbles]

If both players were to play perfectly then no one can hit each other. Then the timer runs out. Then it's sudden death. And with frame perfection they can't get hit. The victory is ultimately decided on which player can stare at the screen the longest, before they start aching and starving, unless they're perfect immortal people...

 

[Kitamerby]

If both players were to play perfectly then no one can hit each other. Then the timer runs out. Then it's sudden death. And with frame perfection they can't get hit. The victory is ultimately decided on which player can stare at the screen the longest, before they start aching and starving, unless they're perfect immortal people...

This man wins.