The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[elatedshyguy]

http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-talk-about-l-canceling.329370/page-14#post-15100859

Read the very first post on that page. That's interesting no?

 

[mimgrim]

I
Meta Knight may be the primary reason for the LGL, but he isn't the only one. While MK's planking game was by far the most OP, other characters can still utilize it well, Marth and Pikachu being some upper tier examples. You can't say there is literally no other reason when there certainly are other reasons.

No other character can abuse it like MK can. If Mk didn't exist in Brawl the LGL wouldn't be in place, plain and simple. no other character has a broken planking game. Some can utilize it well sure, but it's nothing extreme and definitely don't warrant a LGL.

 

[elatedshyguy]

This is interesting, I never thought of this.

 

[pitthekit]

This is interesting, I never thought of this.View attachment 7574

Ehh screw it I can relearn the muscle memory for l-cancelling

*glances over at wii u pro controller. "I hope your body is ready"

 

[Muster]

No other character can abuse it like MK can. If Mk didn't exist in Brawl the LGL wouldn't be in place, plain and simple. no other character has a broken planking game. Some can utilize it well sure, but it's nothing extreme and definitely don't warrant a LGL.

I concede the point. MK was certainly the reason LGL's exist today.

 

[LancerStaff]

How do we we end this thread I am tired of hearing butt hurt Brawl fans weep and I am tired of people who have crummy arguments, like wavedashing is unnatural. I mean I don't remember the last time a human could control how high they could jump (SH) and how fast they would fall (FF), but you don't argue against them huh? To all of us who are pro tech and understand the depth and options that they bring let's just enjoy Melee and Project M and very soon Air Dodge Online and let's continue being the face of the community and making it to EVO. To those who don't like tech skill they have Brawl and their smaller recognition and tournaments. Let's move on maybe even play our respective games, I'm in the mood for some Melee.

BTW don't get me wrong I play Brawl all the time, I'm the only one in my house who does lol. I main Fox. He isn't as good as is in Melee but if watch how the Japanese play him, you will know he is still a great character. Look up Yui.

Not unnatural IRL, unnatural gameplay wise. We've been able to control jumps since SMB and plenty of games let you fastfall or dive. Does it make sense to airdoge into the ground when you want to dash? It'd of made more sense in game if friction took over much quicker.

 

[Black Mantis]

That game in general has plenty of problems, and that's coming from someone that really wanted to enjoy it.

remember this?

Anyway, I'm a fan of tech skill as long as it's intuitive to the gameplay (Jumping in the air and dodging into the ground to dash forward does not make sense. As for l canceling it's the same idea. Personally I'm more of a fan of tvc's baroque system).

 

[DraginHikari]

Figures. The thread started out well enough about tech skill only to deteriorate into Melee and PM VS Brawl. e_e



That's all people can do when they fall.

Pretty much how it often goes when you talk about anything like this on this forum. Pretty sure that was the main reason I stopped coming here mid to late 2008 till after Smash 4 announcement. Nice to see it still likes to drag out aging debates.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Smash is easy to pick up and hard to master, just as someone would develop skills in a board game, I don't mind having tech skills return in Smash Bros. 4, such as wavedashing and l-canceling.

 

[SmashChu]

So can we all agree that wavedashing did add a lot of options into Smash and that new techniques of the sort can only enhance the experience and the depth?

I don't think you understand so I'm going to direct you to this.

No one educated thinks that tech skill, in and of itself, is a bad thing. Hell, pressing buttons on a controller is a tech skill, and a non-trivial one at that (try handing twin sticks to someone who has never gamed before, and see how far they get in any game).

What people have a problem with is tech skill gone crazy, tech skill implemented for no other reason that to have tech skill. And tech skill for the sake of it is kind of antithetical to Smash, a series which prides itself on accessibility and simplicity.

Wavedashing wasn't a problem, as a concept and a method of movement. Yes, it's true that wavedashing added strategic complexity to the game, and had it done that in a simple, intuitive way, everyone would have loved it. But, it wasn't simple and intuitive. To perform it, you had to do actions COMPLETELY unrelated to the desired result; explain to me how it makes sense to dash forward by first jumping straight up, then air dashing into the ground. It made no sense, as a set of actions, and therefore was tech skill for no reason.

L-cancelling was the same thing. There was literally no situation in existence where you would consciously choose increased aerial landing lag. None. But, in order to halve the lag, you had to make an arbitrary and unrelated action upon landing (shielding). All that L-cancelling served to do was increase the number of inputs a player was required to do in order to excel at the game. It was an arbitrary APM increase.

And, this isn't Starcraft, nor is it Ultimate Marvel.

If wavedashing could be implemented in a simple, intuitive way, like double-tapping a direction, then it would be a fine addition to Smash's existing movement mechanics. There would be NO reason to dislike it, strategically or mechanically. But, until that happens, yes, I think it's perfectly rational in the context of Smash to dislike arbitrary and unintuitive tech skill for the sake of having tech skill barriers to entry.

Wavedashing adds options but it also add unnecessary barriers to the game. Smash is designed to be a very open game which is why this has been removed and wavedashing and L-Canceling are not conducive to that. Yeah, it adds options, but at what cost. Smash has been successful by being easy to get into. it's the same reason more people play LoL than Dota. It's the same reason that the successful Starcraft declined with the sequel when they focused on APM. It's funny because Melee players now obsess over APM. Sounds like TeamLiquid.

Sorry guys, but I can't just sit here and watch you all gang up on poor little L-canceling. It may be repetitive and the only sensible option throughout the match, but the only alternative Sakurai has given us is huge landing lag on most aerials that eliminate subsequent options. Given the choice I'd simply want every aerial to be automatically cancelled, but since that'll never happen I propose that they bring it back.

Attacks have lag. When you do a move, you need to expect that you'll have some recovery from the move. Every attack should not be safe. L-Canceling basically switches positioning and smart attacking with tech skills.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm still struggling to see why a casual would care if tech skills are present in the game or not. I mean he will most probably be playing with other people who don't use ATs. If he were to face a pro, he would get bopped, tech skill or no. As for feeling "cheated" when the pro uses wavedash, that's a pretty stupid reason if you ask me. I started as a Brawl player, so when I played my cuz in Melee, I didn't feel "cheated" when he destroyed me using ATs, I felt like I sucked at the game.

For SSB4, I think that the only necessary thing that needs to return is hitstun. This game will most probably have its fair share of techs the same way Brawl and Melee did. I do agree that L cancelling is pretty stupid, even though, at this point, I just do it naturally so it doesn't bug me as much.

Also, why would P:M further divide the community? From what Iv'e seen, it's bringing players from both Brawl and Melee together. I see it as a game that has the best of both worlds, if anything.

 

[Substitution]

Quick! Hop in the van so we can jet outta here!!

I know what I said...
...But I just couldn't resist...

 

[Jaedrik]

Which mod has come under fire from all ends of the earth? Which mod has caused an even bigger division in the fanbase? Not Brawl.
I'd better leave now, I've already turned this into a flame war as it is. But ask me this? Why can't we just have both? What is so appalling that we need to make sure it never happens again. Why must we treat it like a mistake, a failure, the worst game of all time? Why can't we just accept it as what it is and move on?

I'm actually very shocked that anyone would want to think this way. It saddens me greatly. Project: Melee has brought the fanbase together, and here's why: I get my game, you get yours, we're all happy! P:M has given casuals innumerable new toys to play with as well, a completely different game as it were, what's not to love about that? Everyone benefits from P:M.

P:M has sparked debates, to be sure, but it is not the cause of the modification itself. Sure, it may be an agent far down the line, but the immediate cause is far more tangible and substantial.
There is a certain group of people that exist, not because of the mod itself, and I can personally guarantee that this group is generally not comprised of passionate tournament attenders. This group of people seeks to use the changes that P:M has brought to make the argument one way or the other, and I think it's quite silly. If you want to discuss something of substance, why not do it with absolute respect for the other side, and why must it depend on recent events to bring the topic up? It doesn't have to, it's just that a group of people like to be contentious, unhelpful, illogical, and they like to use the event as the excuse and justification for their disgusting behavoir. That's not to say, of course, that there is no right or wrong in the matter, but the fact they ignore the common wealth that P:M has given to our community as a game unto itself is sickening to me, and being right or wrong about whether Melee or Brawl is better (hint, Project: Melee is the best of the three ) is incredibly trivial as it is not of grave matter. . . well, because our souls aren't in peril if we're wrong about one tiny thing, right? Hehe. Forgive my silliness, but I truly do mean it in a playful manner, I do not mean to offend or cause derision or strife when I poke fun at the discussion.

So come, let us be Brothers at the table of Smash. It'll be a Super time

 

[lordvaati]

I am pro advance techs, which is probably why I am anticipating Rosalina so much, as her play style opens up the possibility of new discoveries. I also would be all for bringing back classic techs in easer to utilize ways.

However, there is one thing I do feel needs to be mentioned: the fact people want old techs back...while I personally would love to see Mario's SJP cancel return, on further thought I realized we don't REALLY need them back depending on the game. Allow me to explain.

With Street Fighter, each new installment creates it's own techs exclusive to that game. In the OG 2 we got combos and later on supers, in 3 parries, in Alpha we got Alpha cancels and isms, and in 4 we got Focus and Revenge. Smash Bros. Was the same, 64d throw properties and was TOD focused, Melee Wavedasing, and Brawl Wave Bounce, Glide tossing, DACUS etc. The difference however is with Brawl Sakurai was targeting the new gaming audience and added staff like tripping and reduced hit stun, which heavily changed the playing field to an overly defensive, campy one. However if he had kept it the same without those negative qualities Brawl would probably get a lot less flak and many would probably enjoy the new play style...

And lo and behold, Smash 4is doing that! Tripping is gone, the pace is much faster, and Sakurai stated he is aiming for a more skill based system then Brawl(the new edge system is one f many signs of this) so yeah my main drift is that we may not need back the old ATs if the new ones getthe job done better and start a new unique experience like all the SF incarnations did.

 

[smashbro29]

They could, but, would they? SKM_NeoN is working under the assumption that Sakurai most likely won't give us anything else besides massive landing lag or L-canceling. No need to be a jerk about it.Well, if we're taking Smash to mean the average speed of all the entries, then faster, but only ever so slightly, as Brawl diluted Melee and P:M's speed. 64 was also pretty fast so that's something.

Funny, how you tell him to use his brain when

That's what he says in the first place.
It's not stupid to think that a mechanic that has been prevalent in 2/3's of the series history would realistically return over lowering landing lag altogether.

Jeez people online would get mad if I called them a poopyhead. I did misread the post though.

 

[Renji64]

If there is combos, L-canceling and free movement and not a defensive snore fest i will be happy with smash 4.

 

[smashmachine]

And this game won't if it became Melee 2.0? Look at Project M, it's essentially what everyone wanted, another Melee. Yet it caused an even bigger division among the fan-base.

Which mod has come under fire from all ends of the earth? Which mod has caused an even bigger division in the fanbase? Not Brawl.
I'd better leave now, I've already turned this into a flame war as it is. But ask me this? Why can't we just have both? What is so appalling that we need to make sure it never happens again. Why must we treat it like a mistake, a failure, the worst game of all time? Why can't we just accept it as what it is and move on?

this would hold more merit if it weren't for the fact that most people that don't like Project M just don't like it because of a combination of "if you want Melee gameplay, just play Melee", Sakurai asskissing, and those who are just salty about its success

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Attacks have lag. When you do a move, you need to expect that you'll have some recovery from the move. Every attack should not be safe. L-Canceling basically switches positioning and smart attacking with tech skills.

The thing is, a lot of aerials were still punishable with L cancelling, heck some moves STILL weren't viable options with it (half of Bowser's aerials for example). There needs to be a good balance of low risk and high risk options, and I feel Melee provided that for the most part.

Jeez people online would get mad if I called them a poopyhead. I did misread the post though.

lolz, yoo sed poop!

But yeah I don't mind straight talk, and didn't feel you were necessarily being mean spirited. It was cool of MonK4 and Muster to come to my defense though *bro fist*

 

[guedes the brawler]

And my big post back at page 3 was totally forgotten. sad.

 

[JediLink]

I know that I'm a couple of pages late here, but

Things like Monster Hunter and Dark Souls have taught me that games being hard for the sake of being hard are bad games.

On topic:
Competitive fighting games are, and always have been, skill-based games, and that includes technical skill whether you like it or not. L-cancelling is still dumb though.

 

[D-idara]

If there is combos, L-canceling and free movement and not a defensive snore fest i will be happy with smash 4.

As long as it's not a glitchy wavefest, I'll be happy with Smash 4. And you seriously want L-Cancelling back? It's just an input barrier for the sake of having an input barrier.

 

[Renji64]

As long as it's not a glitchy wavefest, I'll be happy with Smash 4. And you seriously want L-Cancelling back? It's just an input barrier for the sake of having an input barrier.

How is pressing one button a input barrier canceling out lag on moves is one of the most useful things there is with characters like bowser or D3. The game is simple enough it is a Advance tech for a reason.

 

[pitthekit]

I think we can all agree wavedash was a helpfully exploit on the physics engine to advance melees meta game.

Also I can deal with l cancel as it is very simple to learn but; however, some people find l cancelling useless as if you just made all the ending lag values on aerials lower you would get a faster smash without l cancel.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pressing that one button after every Xair doesn't add competitive value in of itself. Speed itself isn't always good. Otherwise, tournaments would be played on lightning mode.

That sig of yours... 'And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players.' Ever notice how Sakurai doesn't sound very confident? Melee being 'competitive' was a complete accident.

'Brawl was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction.' 'sort of leaned a little bit' Hmph. Sakurai simply put SSB back on the track he wanted: Where SSB is a simple game that doesn't have to rely on complex techniques.

 

[mimgrim]

'Brawl was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction.' 'sort of leaned a little bit' Hmph. Sakurai simply put SSB back on the track he wanted: Where SSB is a simple game that doesn't have to rely on complex techniques.

Because it's not like Brawl had complex techniques or anything.

 

[Renji64]

Pressing that one button after every Xair doesn't add competitive value in of itself. Speed itself isn't always good. Otherwise, tournaments would be played on lightning mode.

That sig of yours... 'And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players.' Ever notice how Sakurai doesn't sound very confident? Melee being 'competitive' was a complete accident.

'Brawl was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction.' 'sort of leaned a little bit' Hmph. Sakurai simply put SSB back on the track he wanted: Where SSB is a simple game that doesn't have to rely on complex techniques.

Nah it just means he dumbed down the game for idiots who still think wavedashing or any of those things are complex. Also means people say they are "Good" in brawl aka balloon fighter are scrubs it is the casual entry in the series lmao.

 

[DraginHikari]

Just for kicks I did pop in Melee and looked over wavedashing and l-cancel a bit myself and merely tried it to just sort of look at it from the presepctive of someone that hasn't used them. As far as Wavedashing, I wasn't able to repeatively do it and usually I could only pull it off in one direction either towards or away from an opponent and I couldn't really small jump into one very well compared to the videos I've seen of it. I can definitely see the purpose of that type of advance tech, as it's a tech that could be performed by anyone but at the same time it cannot be applied well without practice and skill development. That's kind of the point of them.

L-Cancelling on the other hand, I find extremely unnecessarily in context. It's basically a situation where your pressing a button for the sake of pressing a button. To be honest I think it would be better to just heavily reduce the landing lag in general then continue to utilize that kind of process.

 

[mimgrim]

Why the hell did you like my post Renji. xD

I was being sarcastic when I said that as Brawl does in fact have complex techniques of it's own (and I know all about how you hate Brawl and will probably irrationally deny that there are any complex techniques in it), especially if he considers Wave Dash as a complex technique.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because it's not like Brawl had complex techniques or anything.

He failed again, obviously.

Nah it just means he dumbed down the game for idiots who still think wavedashing or any of those things are complex. Also means people say they are "Good" in brawl aka balloon fighter are scrubs it is the casual entry in the series lmao.

Correct. Sakurai goofed on Melee. Melee was just a huge mistake. SSB is supposed to be played by everyone, including those of lower IQs. If Sakurai wanted a hardcore fighter, he would of never added casual popular characters like Mario or Pikachu, or even changed the game from 'Dragon King'.

 

[Renji64]

He failed again, obviously.



Correct. Sakurai goofed on Melee. Melee was just a huge mistake. SSB is supposed to be played by everyone, including those of lower IQs. If Sakurai wanted a hardcore fighter, he would of never added casual popular characters like Mario or Pikachu, or even changed the game from 'Dragon King'.

He set out to make a fighter that would appeal to both he did that with melee and n64. Brawl was for casuals only.

 

[d-man2292]

as for wavedashing, i'm like not good at it AT ALL! but i still think i'm pretty good at the game, i mean their are other techniques that are specific to whichever character you're using, i mean i'm pretty sure a bowser main (if that even exists) wouldnt find much use for wavedashing as a luigi main would. i think it depends on the character, for example mario down air while hitting the ground doesnt have that much lag time like link's down air would, i would hope a link main would use l cancelling, i think it all depends on the player

 

[LancerStaff]

He set out to make a fighter that would appeal to both he did that with melee and n64. Brawl was for casuals only.

He set out to make a game in which tournament level play would be completely understood by casuals with having to look up what wavedashing is. And if Brawl was only for casuals, why would there be a competitive scene that's still active dispite there being 'better' games and 'fixes'. Sakurai made Brawl the way it was to slow down the metagame so casuals could understand. Problem was, he way overdid it. And 64 barely even appeals to hardcores because of all the horrible stages. Japan has one legal stage.

 

[mimgrim]

He failed again, obviously.

Correct. Sakurai goofed on Melee. Melee was just a huge mistake. SSB is supposed to be played by everyone, including those of lower IQs. If Sakurai wanted a hardcore fighter, he would of never added casual popular characters like Mario or Pikachu, or even changed the game from 'Dragon King'.

Dude every one could play Melee and did. A true casual will not care about advance techniques and still enjoy the game and will move onto the next game no matter what. They will be happy with just about anything as long as it keeps the basics, which Melee did. Also I believe Sakurai played Street Fighter competitively before (http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow).

Is it so wrong to make something that can go deeper for those who truly love the series and want to push it to it's limits though?

He set out to make a game in which tournament level play would be completely understood by casuals with having to look up what wavedashing is.

Source of him saying EXACTLY that?

 

[D-idara]

Nah it just means he dumbed down the game for idiots who still think wavedashing or any of those things are complex. Also means people say they are "Good" in brawl aka balloon fighter are scrubs it is the casual entry in the series lmao.

Different =/= Bad
You seem to be unable to grasp that. Brawl isn't bad because it's easier to get into, that makes it better. Super Concrete Weights Melee was too fast for its own good. Also, the natural skill progression of the game should require you to just play it and learn from your playing time and your mistakes, not look up some obscure command online to base your whole playstyle around it. That's one of my problems with Street Fighter, skill isn't given through progression or pure practice.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not exactly, but something more like 'There should be a marginal difference between casual and hardcore players'. Wavedashing isn't exactly marginal,is it? And Sakurai did not want SSB to be anything like Street Fighter.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult?

 

[mimgrim]

Not exactly, but something more like 'There should be a marginal difference between casual and hardcore players'. Wavedashing isn't exactly marginal,is it? And Sakurai did not want SSB to be anything like Street Fighter.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult?

No. Give me a source of him saying it exactly, or all you were doing was going under a presumption that cannot be proven. I don't want a source where you twist the words into a different meaning, I want a source of Sakurai saying exactly "He set out to make a game in which tournament level play would be completely understood by casuals with having to look up what wavedashing is." Anything less is not acceptable.

 

[elatedshyguy]

This is interesting, I never thought of this.View attachment 7574

Not unnatural IRL, unnatural gameplay wise. We've been able to control jumps since SMB and plenty of games let you fastfall or dive. Does it make sense to airdoge into the ground when you want to dash? It'd of made more sense in game if friction took over much quicker.

Yes it makes sense in Melee

 

[Renji64]

He set out to make a game in which tournament level play would be completely understood by casuals with having to look up what wavedashing is. And if Brawl was only for casuals, why would there be a competitive scene that's still active dispite there being 'better' games and 'fixes'. Sakurai made Brawl the way it was to slow down the metagame so casuals could understand. Problem was, he way overdid it. And 64 barely even appeals to hardcores because of all the horrible stages. Japan has one legal stage.

People like a terrible game in interviews he said brawl was for the casual audience. You can tell with all the changes it had from melee to brawl and tripping. N64 and Melee are enjoyable for either crowd.

 

[Renji64]

Different =/= Bad
You seem to be unable to grasp that. Brawl isn't bad because it's easier to get into, that makes it better. Super Concrete Weights Melee was too fast for its own good. Also, the natural skill progression of the game should require you to just play it and learn from your playing time and your mistakes, not look up some obscure command online to base your whole playstyle around it. That's one of my problems with Street Fighter, skill isn't given through progression or pure practice.

I never said it is bad because it is easy to get into that is one of the good aspects about the game. Smash is simple as it gets pretty much dumbing down the game for others sucked. Now in smash 4 he aims to find a middleground is what he should of did the 1st time.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Different =/= Bad
You seem to be unable to grasp that. Brawl isn't bad because it's easier to get into, that makes it better. Super Concrete Weights Melee was too fast for its own good. Also, the natural skill progression of the game should require you to just play it and learn from your playing time and your mistakes, not look up some obscure command online to base your whole playstyle around it. That's one of my problems with Street Fighter, skill isn't given through progression or pure practice.

Sometimes you people say **** that lack any sense. How was Melee too fast for it's own good? Melee is easily the most popular game in the community. If it was too much of anything that in the end made it displeasing it wouldn't be so popular.