The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[elatedshyguy]

It is always debated, and I just don't understand why. Even among us, the minority who see Smash as a real fighter, we have people who hate techniques like wavdashing even after Sakurai confirmed that he decided to leave it in the games programming. I mean all wavedashing does is add more possibilities for characters. I mean look at waveshine combos. Look at Marth's combo where he wavedashes and pokes and rinse and repeats.

Wavedashing was an approach option that also complemented mind games.

People argue that:
- it is too hard and takes to much time to learn
- since it takes so long to learn, people who have work won't be as good as those who have time to practice

Believe it or not the second argument presented above was an actual argument on my previous thread speaking on Miiverse.
Obviously, people who have little recreational time will not be focused on going to video game tournaments so they wouldn't need to practice advance techniques. And let's say they did want to got to tournaments, obviously they would use free time to practice their tech skill if they aren't already competent and are dead serious about going to tournaments.

In the end what I want frustratingly hard headed people to understand is that if Smash is a fighting game, any and every new skill that adds options and depth should always be welcomed because they give characters more options for combos. They add variety and that's great. What are some arguments people have given you? What are your arguments for or against tech skill?

Oh and I have a topic that I want to know the community's thoughts on. I've realized that with the constant rejection of furthering the competitive scene in Smash on Sakurai's behalf, the Smash community is finding ways to do it ourselves. Project M, Brawl +, all of these mods are examples. And the most interesting of all is Air Dodge Online or something like that. It is a completely separate game from Smash yet it borrow's the gameplay from Smash. Now this game could potentially rob Smash of a lot of players, I mean by the looks of things Sakurai really doesn't want Smash to be thought of a serious fighter, I mean in an interview he admits he doesn't even refer to it as a fighter, and how long can Melee stay in the game, yeah it's been 13 years but let's say when Smash reaches it's 6th title do you seriously believe people are gonna still be playing Melee at huge events? Games need to evolve to stay fresh and Melee is on it's second heart out of three (Zelda reference lol). What do you think about the future of Smash?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Eh. I'm not opposed to them, but at the same time I don't feel they're necessary.

It's entirely possible to have a deep competitive experience without tech skill.

So, if they're there and they actually contribute? Neat! If they're not there, not the end of the world.



And Sakurai is actually adressing several competitive complaints this time around. Planking and tripping are gone for example. I say let's see what Sakurai does. I have a good feeling about this.

 

[Jack Kieser]

No one educated thinks that tech skill, in and of itself, is a bad thing. Hell, pressing buttons on a controller is a tech skill, and a non-trivial one at that (try handing twin sticks to someone who has never gamed before, and see how far they get in any game).

What people have a problem with is tech skill gone crazy, tech skill implemented for no other reason that to have tech skill. And tech skill for the sake of it is kind of antithetical to Smash, a series which prides itself on accessibility and simplicity.

Wavedashing wasn't a problem, as a concept and a method of movement. Yes, it's true that wavedashing added strategic complexity to the game, and had it done that in a simple, intuitive way, everyone would have loved it. But, it wasn't simple and intuitive. To perform it, you had to do actions COMPLETELY unrelated to the desired result; explain to me how it makes sense to dash forward by first jumping straight up, then air dashing into the ground. It made no sense, as a set of actions, and therefore was tech skill for no reason.

L-cancelling was the same thing. There was literally no situation in existence where you would consciously choose increased aerial landing lag. None. But, in order to halve the lag, you had to make an arbitrary and unrelated action upon landing (shielding). All that L-cancelling served to do was increase the number of inputs a player was required to do in order to excel at the game. It was an arbitrary APM increase.

And, this isn't Starcraft, nor is it Ultimate Marvel.

If wavedashing could be implemented in a simple, intuitive way, like double-tapping a direction, then it would be a fine addition to Smash's existing movement mechanics. There would be NO reason to dislike it, strategically or mechanically. But, until that happens, yes, I think it's perfectly rational in the context of Smash to dislike arbitrary and unintuitive tech skill for the sake of having tech skill barriers to entry.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I agree with making wavedashing simpler and L-cancelling being a silly addition since you could have just programmed aerials without lag from the get go. My point was not about how they were performed, it's their existence that matters to me. They added more options for mobility and comboing which is always good in a fighting game and there is no reason why they shouldn't be in they game.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Which leads me to my next point. Since we the community know how to perfect Smash and Sakurai not agreeing with making Smash a deep fighter and finally with Air Dodge Online becoming a game created by the Smash community, what does the future of Smash look like?

 

[mimgrim]

It's entirely possible to have a deep competitive experience without tech skill.

Give one,good and legit, example. lol

Wavedashing wasn't a problem, as a concept and a method of movement. Yes, it's true that wavedashing added strategic complexity to the game, and had it done that in a simple, intuitive way, everyone would have loved it. But, it wasn't simple and intuitive. To perform it, you had to do actions COMPLETELY unrelated to the desired result; explain to me how it makes sense to dash forward by first jumping straight up, then air dashing into the ground. It made no sense, as a set of actions, and therefore was tech skill for no reason.

Just to point out firstly, I am neutral on Wavedashing, I don't care if it comes back or not. With that said, I don't get the logic behind the argument of it makes no sense. You're playing Smash, sense can hardly be inscribed as a big thing in it. Sure it may seem odd in the way it works but why should that make it tech skill for no reason? As it clearly has a reason despite being a weird way to preform for extra momentum.

That argument just seems awfully flimsy to me.

 

[Seraphim.]

You pretty much anwsered it yourself some people who had a hard time learning the techs, therefore they don't want future smash games to play similar. There are also those who rather play defensively like Brawl rather than Melee's offensive style.

I would like to see these techs return but I want to see Smash 4 add a new skill that adds depth and deeper gameplay.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

To add to what jack said, while some players, including myself, have no problem with the way the techniques were implemented, the necessary inputs do baffle players who attempt them who aren't familiar with the intricacies of a fighting game engine.

L canceling in my opinion makes sense from a defensive positions, when you have your attack blocked or someone evades it you would want to shield almost immediately to defend a potential oncoming attack. Combing this with moderate shield stun and offensive mobility options created a fast paced and intricate game. Thing about L canceling there is almost no reason to not do so, except for characters like Pikachu in smash 64, for if you L cancel you miss out on the second ground hit of his down air, same when you auto cancel it in Brawl too. If more characters had at least one aerial that functioned like this it would add a lot of strategy to the use of L- Canceling.

Personally, I think there are many other things in smash 4 that are important besides these 2 obviously vital techniques. Even balancing things such as dash dancing should be considered, where when you start your first pivot it is the fastest (it also gains a unique dash animation) and after each pivot the amount of frames you have to execute the next pivot is reduced and the pivot speed is gradually reduced to prevent dash dance camping and add a risk to tech chasing with characters like Marth. It basically would work like wall jumping in a sense.

I actually feel like Sakurai is doing a pretty good job with the competitive aspects of smash so far. Sure, it's not Melee, and nothing will ever be as incredible as it in my eyes, but it is a new smash, one that Sakurai and the team at Namco Bandai seem to be taking very seriously given there fighting game developing experience.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Give one,good and legit, example. lol.

Chess.

Highly competitive.

No technical or mechanical skill required.

Just sharp brains and a competitive spirit.

But if you want a video game example...

Pokemon. And don't tell me it's not competitive.

Something being competitive isn't reliant on tech skill, mechanical skill or muscle memory. It's reliant on the attitude of the competitors. Melee would be NOTHING if it wasn't for the community. Communities easily make or break a competitive scene.

That's not to say that tech skill doesn't make a game deeper, but it's not necessary to have a good competitive experience.

I would like to see these techs return but I want to see Smash 4 add a new skill that adds depth and deeper gameplay.

You may have it with the new ledge mechanics.

 

[elatedshyguy]

You pretty much anwsered it yourself some people who had a hard time learning the techs, therefore they don't want future smash games to play similar. There are also those who rather play defensively like Brawl rather than Melee's offensive style.

I would like to see these techs return but I want to see Smash 4 add a new skill that adds depth and deeper gameplay.

This is what I want as well, I want Wavedashing to return, I don't care how it is implemented, and I want new techs that make the gameplay deeper. The series needs to add and evolve as time goes on. Not just redesign and add charcters. I mean why not just make a game and release DLCs for the rest of eternity if that what you want. People who argue that Smash is great the way it is don't realize that things that don't evolve fail, it's part of nature I mean look at us human we are what we are because of evolving lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is what I want as well, I want Wavedashing to return, I don't care how it is implemented, and I want new techs that make the gameplay deeper. The series needs to add and evolve as time goes on. Not just redesign and add charcters. I mean why not just make a game and release DLCs for the rest of eternity if that what you want. People who argue that Smash is great the way it is don't realize that things that don't evolve fail, it's part of nature I mean look at us human we are what we are because of evolving lol.

Have you been ignoring the changes being made to the basic gameplay of Smash 4?

They are changing quite a bit.

Planking is basically gone. And edgeguarding is gonna be hell now.

Smash is certainly evolving.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Have you been ignoring the changes being made to the basic gameplay of Smash 4?

They are changing quite a bit.

Planking is basically gone. And edgeguarding is gonna be hell now.

Smash is certainly evolving.

Yes I am aware and these things are great additions, I am especially interested in the way playing the edge is gonna work. However, I miss wavedashing lol.

 

[smashmachine]

Pokemon. And don't tell me it's not competitive.

Pokemon's not competitive, deal with it

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes I am aware and these things are great additions, I am especially interested in the way playing the edge is gonna work. However, I miss wavedashing lol.

Why wavedashing in particular though?

I mean there were lots of things that contributed to Melee's mindgames and mobility.

It wasn't all just wavedashing.

Pokemon's not competitive, deal with it

 

[elatedshyguy]

Also, they are just remaking not adding. Why don't they add a way to connect specials and attacks?

Chess.

Highly competitive.

No technical or mechanical skill required.

Just sharp brains and a competitive spirit.

But if you want a video game example...

Pokemon. And don't tell me it's not competitive.

Something being competitive isn't reliant on tech skill, mechanical skill or muscle memory. It's reliant on the attitude of the competitors. Melee would be NOTHING if it wasn't for the community. Communities easily make or break a competitive scene.

That's not to say that tech skill doesn't make a game deeper, but it's not necessary to have a good competitive experience.


You may have it with the new ledge mechanics.

You say no technical skill. You are wrong, the technical skill is how each individual piece moves. The ways the Knight can hop over pieces and move in an L is a "skill".

 

[J1NG]

One of these threads, eh?
Well, I'll go ahead and say that wavedashing is quite simple to execute, and the only way I could possibly simplify the execution is to have it so that the current wavedash input could be done on the ground, and the character would wavedash. So, basically, you don't have to jump to wavedash. The inputs would be left/right+L/R to dodge roll, diagonal down+L/R to wavedash, and down+L/R to side step. Either that or give wavedashing its own button...but I honestly don't like that idea.
I think the reason why people think wavedashing is an "empty technical barrier" is because of its frequent combination with L-Cancelling. Now, if you're talking about L-Cancelling, then I'll agree that the inputs could be way more simple. I wouldn't want to remove the act of pressing a button to cancel landing lag, though. In the case of L-Cancelling, I would just reduce the amount of button inputs and add strategic depth to it. In fact, I've posted my ideas on how to accomplish this in other threads.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Why wavedashing in particular though?

I mean there were lots of things that contributed to Melee's mindgames and mobility.

It wasn't all just wavedashing.=quote]


Because wavedashing was such a good mechanic. It was a simple concept, basically you slide across the floor. Yet many things came from this simple slide. Waveshine, wavelanding into grabs, etc.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Also, they are just remaking not adding. Why don't they add a way to connect specials and attacks?


You say no technical skill. You are wrong, the technical skill is how each individual piece moves. The ways the Knight can hop over pieces and move in an L is a "skill".

Technical skill isn't how each piece moves. Technical skill is your ability to physically move the pieces on the board. Do you have functioning hands / arms? You have the technical skill required to play chess.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also, they are just remaking not adding. Why don't they add a way to connect specials and attacks?

You mean chaining?

You say no technical skill. You are wrong, the technical skill is how each individual piece moves. The ways the Knight can hop over pieces and move in an L is a "skill".

That's a rule of the game.

Not a skill.

Technical skill isn't how each piece moves. Technical skill is your ability to physically move the pieces on the board. Do you have functioning hands / arms? You have the technical skill required to play chess.

You don't even need limbs!

All you need to do is talk nowadays, and other people will move it for you! XD

Not sure if that would count as a technical skill though.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Yes that is a skill, the Knight has the ability or skill to hop over other pieces. Are you trying to say tech skill is an external thing outside of the game? So using your logic, that would mean that wavedashing is a rule and not a skill/technique one can use.

 

[Lazurwolf]

Gravity is a skill.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Let's not argue the literal meaning if words guys c'mon.

Either way, I feel like the techs in Melee were just fine the way they are, however simplifying them may be somewhat tedious.

And honestly wave dashing is very fun. It's oddly enough in a lot of Namco Bandai fighting games as there premise for their games is to creat movement. Movement is to Tekken as Combos are to Marvel. If anyone can figure out a way to implement wave dashing Sakurai's development team can.

Wave dashing is unique and awesome to smash because it emphasizes the games unique platform mechanics by giving you access to Marvel 2-esq mix ups by optimizing available platforms, which emphasize the brilliant designed of stages like battle field, with the lower platforms being on the edge allow you to optimize your approaches, similar to how in street fighter you can do cross ups and create strong mix up opportunities.

Wow, the more I think about this the more I feel how brilliant Sakurai really is at creating these games. He was a hardcore street fighter player back in the day after all.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes that is a skill, the Knight has the ability or skill to hop over other pieces.

That's a rule of the game...

Are you trying to say tech skill is an external thing outside of the game?

Yes.

It's reliant on the player. Specifically how the player, himself, can move. The ability to effectively press a button is tech skill for example.

So using your logic, that would mean that wavedashing is a rule and not a skill/technique one can use.

Oh boy....

A rule is a regulation.

The Knight only being able to move in a certain way is a rule. You cannot use the knight without submitting to that regulation.

Wavedashing is not regulated. You're free to use it. You're free not to. And you can use it any way you like. Is it necessary to win the game? No. It's an option. Not a rule.

Let's not argue the literal meaning if words guys c'mon.

But...

I'm a member of the Smashboards community...

It's my duty....

Wow, the more I think about this the more I feel how brilliant Sakurai really is at creating these games. He was a hardcore street fighter player back in the day after all.

Was he? Cool! Didn't know that. If that's the case, then I can definitely see where some stuff came from.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Let's not argue the literal meaning if words guys c'mon.

Either way, I feel like the techs in Melee were just fine the way they are, however simplifying them may be somewhat tedious.

And honestly wave dashing is very fun. It's oddly enough in a lot of Namco Bandai fighting games as there premise for their games is to creat movement. Movement is to Tekken as Combos are to Marvel. If anyone can figure out a way to implement wave dashing Sakurai's development team can.

Wave dashing is unique and awesome to smash because it emphasizes the games unique platform mechanics by giving you access to Marvel 2-esq mix ups by optimizing available platforms, which emphasize the brilliant designed of stages like battle field, with the lower platforms being on the edge allow you to optimize your approaches, similar to how in street fighter you can do cross ups and create strong mix up opportunities.

Wow, the more I think about this the more I feel how brilliant Sakurai really is at creating these games. He was a hardcore street fighter player back in the day after all.

Wow, good job on that one. Another thing is when you think about it, Smash is the most dynamic and varied game in terms or movement then any other fighter I can think of. We have smaller characters and bigger stages giving us more space to run around. We have walks, speed walks, runs, jumps, short jumps, air dodges, up specials, dodges, etc.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wow, good job on that one. Another thing is when you think about it, Smash is the most dynamic and varied game in terms or movement then any other fighter I can think of. We have smaller characters and bigger stages giving us more space to run around. We have walks, speed walks, runs, jumps, short jumps, air dodges, up specials, dodges, etc.

Yeah man. I actually got my start in fighting games because of Smash. A lot of people did since there are several overlaying principals that translate over into fighting games like tech chasing, okizeme, ukeme (Sakurai actually called it that on the Dojo), corner /edge game, spacing, and a unique gravity based combo engine.

God I love smash. Especially Melee. Just so solid.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Okay Swampasaur, I know when I have lost and I have zero problem understanding that I am wrong. Thanks for that explanation on tech skill it makes sense.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Wow, good job on that one. Another thing is when you think about it, Smash is the most dynamic and varied game in terms or movement then any other fighter I can think of. We have smaller characters and bigger stages giving us more space to run around. We have walks, speed walks, runs, jumps, short jumps, air dodges, up specials, dodges, etc.

And that is why smash is my favorite fighter.

And i've played alot of fighters, smash is the most unique and dynamic fighting game there is, and the technical skill just evolves the game into so much more.

And that's why sakurai is my favorite developer, the way he tries to make each smash unique is just amazing. There's nothing wrong with making the game deeper with tech skills.

 

[J1NG]

I could be wrong, but was Melee the first game ever to feature wavedashing? If it was, then the fact that Marvel 3 implemented wavedashing says a lot(in my opinion).
Just look at that Sentinel:

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay Swampasaur, I know when I have lost and I have zero problem understanding that I am wrong. Thanks for that explanation on tech skill it makes sense.

I... uh...

I don't want you to think I bullied you or anything. Wasn't my intention... Just trying to state my opinion.

We cool?

I could be wrong, but was Melee the first game ever to feature wavedashing?

Nah. Plenty of other games have done it before Smash.

Though Smash's wavedashes are unique in how they function.

 

[elatedshyguy]

So can we all agree that wavedashing did add a lot of options into Smash and that new techniques of the sort can only enhance the experience and the depth?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So can we all agree that wavedashing did add a lot of options into Smash and that new techniques of the sort can only enhance the experience and the depth?

Absolutely.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I... uh...

I don't want you to think I bullied you or anything. Wasn't my intention...

We cool?


Nah. Plenty of other games have done it before Smash.

Though Smash's wavedashes are unique in how they function.

Well, the sarcasm was a little painful to read but nothing I can't handle. Hey man, if I am lacking in a subject I have no problem being enlightened by who ever.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well, the sarcasm was a little painful to read but nothing I can't handle.

Sarcasm?

Where was I sarcastic?

 

[elatedshyguy]

Sarcasm?

Where was I sarcastic?

When you said things like "oh boy..." though it may not seem like it, it is a form of sarcasm.

 

[J1NG]

Nah. Plenty of other games have done it before Smash.

Though Smash's wavedashes are unique in how they function.

Could you list some of those games for me, if it's not too much trouble?

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I have no problem with tech skill and I feel that wave dashing did add to the game. With that said, I hate L-canceling. I feel that tech skill should add to the depth of the game rather than make the game. There should be risks and rewards based on when and how you use the technique, simply being able to do the tech should not instantly make you better. I mean what did L-canceling really add to 64 and melee's experience? Some would immediately say that it made the game faster paced but I would immediately retort that it was unnecessary. It would have been just as fine if the characters already had the lag deducted. If this had been the case the time players put into memorizing to push a button every time they did an arial near ground could have been used learning other techniques and skill sets and the game would have been no worse off due to the loss.

On the other hand Wavedashing is great, it offers a great way of spacing without adding lag. However it can be punished if used incorrectly and thereby adds a additional level of strategy and immersion. I'm also a big fan of character specific techs. Things like QAC with pikachu or Hydroplaning with squirtle add to the individual personalities and depth these character have rather than simply creating a factor to do nothing but further the distance between casuals and pros.

 

[D-idara]

I agree with making wavedashing simpler and L-cancelling being a silly addition since you could have just programmed aerials without lag from the get go. My point was not about how they were performed, it's their existence that matters to me. They added more options for mobility and comboing which is always good in a fighting game and there is no reason why they shouldn't be in they game.

If wavedash was done simply I wouldn't be too much about it, but it's about as hard as doin an Ultra Combo in SFIV during the heat of batlle, and that's a big no in Smash. Things like Monster Hunter and Dark Souls have taught me that games being hard for the sake of being hard are bad games.

 

[pitthekit]

If wavedash was done simply I wouldn't be too much about it, but it's about as hard as doin an Ultra Combo in SFIV during the heat of batlle, and that's a big no in Smash. Things like Monster Hunter and Dark Souls have taught me that games being hard for the sake of being hard are bad games.

Uhh dark souls had complicated boss fights with multiple ways to beat them simply... They did not just give you one attack value and have the boss have 9999999 hit points...and a lot of people enjoy accomplish things on hard games.

Wave dashing is a commonly used mobility option, almost everyone can perform it under pressure.
Also is pressing jump and imputing an air dodge to the ground even harder than performing that?
But yes I agree wave dashing should be made easier heck if any technical skill can be made easier do it! Just don't remove it.

Now I hope smash 4 will have lots of hit stuns for combos: this is something casuals and the competitive crowd can actually agree on lol.

Edit. Would wavedash be easier if it was imputed by jumping and pressing the Z left button to go left or pressing the z right button to go right?
Using the wii u pro controller of course.

 

[Jaedrik]

If wavedashing could be implemented in a simple, intuitive way, like double-tapping a direction, then it would be a fine addition to Smash's existing movement mechanics. There would be NO reason to dislike it, strategically or mechanically. But, until that happens, yes, I think it's perfectly rational in the context of Smash to dislike arbitrary and unintuitive tech skill for the sake of having tech skill barriers to entry.

While I would agree with you on generally everything else, I really don't see any other input that makes sense for wavedashing that also keeps the execution time already so incredibly low. Also, the simple lack of 'intuitivity' with executing wavedash does not make it 'tech for no reason', as you put it. Double tapping a direction takes a heck of a lot longer than Jump+Dodge+Diagonal, especially if one's not mindful of the controller's deadzones. Double tapping a direction also seems to create a difficult input to execute effectively just the same as wavedashing in Melee and P:M, at least in my mind. This is coming from the guy who couldn't wavedash ever, then finally got P:M and started wavedashing on his first try with the game, there does not seem like a simple way to perform wavedashing. If you guys can think of a better way to execute it, then you've convinced me, but every suggestion I've ever seen for it has some bigger flaw. A flat input would also not work, wavedashing allows for degrees of movement too which add depth. Having it be a single homogenized distance would be silly. Edit: Eh I guess that part's not really a big deal, the initial speed is so quick that the distances end up being more or less the same.

 

[Jaedrik]

Chess.

Highly competitive.

No technical or mechanical skill required.

We're comparing apples to oranges here.
Give me one good, legit example of fighting, either as a game or in real life, that is both competitive and hype to watch and doesn't take high technical skill?
Of course, I suppose that 'competitive' and 'hype' are subjective notions. How about depth?
Being a martial artist, I can say with absolute certitude that fighting in real life takes a hell of a lot more tech skill than playing chess, and has a greater amount of strategic depth due things like physics and execution factoring into the near infinite amount of strategies, tactics, execution, opponent response. Chess is more finite, though still deep.

Edit: Double post but I don' gibba FOXTROT